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Atheism IS a Religion

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  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence Sucking on rocks now? Wow you red herring a LOT.

    My mind isn’t infinite. Your creator is no different from the organized religion creators. You are a theist for believing a creator exists, and I am an atheist for not believing a creator exists. (I really should create a macro for this)

    Open my eyes? You think atheist are theist, anything that you have knowledge of exists, and that somehow you believe in a creator, but don’t think you are a theist. Sure man I’m the one who needs to open their eyes. ROFL

    You think a picture of me is a fake version of me? Be serious man, how man drugs are you on?

    If I dress up as your creator I would become your creator? Wow man the drugs are good. You should look up the word “costume” it will blow your MIND. (well what little bit you have)

    Even most children understand make believe, you seem to struggle with the concept though. Just because you imagine something, or hear about someone’s imaginations doesn’t mean it exists. If you dress up like that imagined thing, then you are pretending because you are NOT that imagined thing just because you don an outfit.

    Oh, you have been fooled already… by the bible. But theists are dying out, and your way of thinking is going away to more sane thought patterns. After we get rid of you zealots, then maybe we can focus on reality and try to fix this planet rather than “praying” about it like that has ever done any good.

    Faith… built on evidence. ROFL

    You’re an theist when you say things like “anger our heavenly father”. I’m not really sure why you can’t grasp some basic semantics, but you continue misusing these words pigeon. If you have a problem with me debating… maybe stop tagging me in debates? Just say’n. ROFL


    <snip>
    <yawn, explained it 99 times>
    <snip theist/atheist>
    <please see previous response>
    <who you going to be dressed up as this Halloween? Spider-Man in a Batman outfit?>
    <yes, make belief IS make belief, not like NASA who want's to pass it off as real>
    <I wish theists died out, but from the sound/looks of it, the Pope is turning the whole world into theists, so you are already there, only in denial; atheist>
    <ROFL, .. ROFL! ..  Sound like a Grate Dane. Why, what do you build YOUR faith on, fairytale stories and CGI pictures?>
    <Naw, then who will I debate with? You grow on me pigeon, I like you, .. I didn't have pets as a kid. Just kidding Mr. Coveny, I know you can take a joke, .. hell I can, look how many debates I had with you, right?>

    Good night @Coveny, .. and remember, that under no circumstances should you take Laxative again, after getting drunk on Nyquil! Just a friendly reminder.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Evidence said:
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence Sucking on rocks now? Wow you red herring a LOT.

    My mind isn’t infinite. Your creator is no different from the organized religion creators. You are a theist for believing a creator exists, and I am an atheist for not believing a creator exists. (I really should create a macro for this)

    Open my eyes? You think atheist are theist, anything that you have knowledge of exists, and that somehow you believe in a creator, but don’t think you are a theist. Sure man I’m the one who needs to open their eyes. ROFL

    You think a picture of me is a fake version of me? Be serious man, how man drugs are you on?

    If I dress up as your creator I would become your creator? Wow man the drugs are good. You should look up the word “costume” it will blow your MIND. (well what little bit you have)

    Even most children understand make believe, you seem to struggle with the concept though. Just because you imagine something, or hear about someone’s imaginations doesn’t mean it exists. If you dress up like that imagined thing, then you are pretending because you are NOT that imagined thing just because you don an outfit.

    Oh, you have been fooled already… by the bible. But theists are dying out, and your way of thinking is going away to more sane thought patterns. After we get rid of you zealots, then maybe we can focus on reality and try to fix this planet rather than “praying” about it like that has ever done any good.

    Faith… built on evidence. ROFL

    You’re an theist when you say things like “anger our heavenly father”. I’m not really sure why you can’t grasp some basic semantics, but you continue misusing these words pigeon. If you have a problem with me debating… maybe stop tagging me in debates? Just say’n. ROFL
    <snip>
    <yawn, explained it 99 times>
    <snip theist/atheist>
    <please see previous response>
    <who you going to be dressed up as this Halloween? Spider-Man in a Batman outfit?>
    <yes, make belief IS make belief, not like NASA who want's to pass it off as real>
    <I wish theists died out, but from the sound/looks of it, the Pope is turning the whole world into theists, so you are already there, only in denial; atheist>
    <ROFL, .. ROFL! ..  Sound like a Grate Dane. Why, what do you build YOUR faith on, fairytale stories and CGI pictures?>
    <Naw, then who will I debate with? You grow on me pigeon, I like you, .. I didn't have pets as a kid. Just kidding Mr. Coveny, I know you can take a joke, .. hell I can, look how many debates I had with you, right?>

    Good night @Coveny, .. and remember, that under no circumstances should you take Laxative again, after getting drunk on Nyquil! Just a friendly reminder.
    Obviously I can take a joke, I've taken you and your flat earther friends for weeks now druggie..
    Evidence
  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 361 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    Coveny said:
    At the end of the proverbial day.
    All religious and god bothering debates tend to boil down to the trading of linguistic semantics.

    Listen to me, I am more eloquent than you.

    Formal definition would say that Atheism cannot be regarded as a religion.
    Loose definition would say that anything could be regarded as a religion.

    Everyday he religiously tended to his garden.
    The same does not hold true with the words theist and atheist.

    Not sure what you're trying to say with this statement.
    How does it relate to my proposition.
    Perhaps you could expand your explanation a little.
    You are using this definition of religion.

    Define religion:
    Webster - a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    Oxford - A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
    Dictionary - the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
    Cambridge - the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

    Something like money is the new religion per say. Right?

    Theist have a value “belief in god(s)”. The “a” on the front simply means not. Like the words asymmetrical, atypical, etc. So atheists simply means “no belief in god(s)”, nothing else is attributed to the word, it’s a null value. 

    How do you pursue a null value? How does a null value have principles? What are the practices of a null value? 

    To take it a step further if it were possible to call null values like atheism a pursuit, doesn’t than mean that all null values become a pursuit? Do you play golf? No, well that’s the “not playing golf” religion. 

    I’ve been an atheist my whole life, and over the years I have been told that I worship satan to eating babies and making nature disasters. That isn’t what atheism is. I’ve been told that atheist are this way or that way, or whatever. That isn’t what atheism is. Look at any definition and you’ll see theist and atheist are diametric opposites where theists “believe in god(s)” and atheist don’t. Unlike many words (religion) which get blurred because of common usage, theist and atheist don’t have that problem, they are very clear on the usage. To say it another way is to say being atheist means you have a lack of beliefs, a lack of practices, a lack of devotion, a lack of faith… a null value can’t be a religion.

    Now you could be anti-theist… that could be a religion. Pro science… that could be a religion. There are MANY other “values” that could be a religion… atheism can’t be though because of the semantics of the word, and the logic of how you are trying to use it.

    Ok. Thanks for explaining. I agree with what you are saying.

    Coveny
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    Coveny said:
    At the end of the proverbial day.
    All religious and god bothering debates tend to boil down to the trading of linguistic semantics.

    Listen to me, I am more eloquent than you.

    Formal definition would say that Atheism cannot be regarded as a religion.
    Loose definition would say that anything could be regarded as a religion.

    Everyday he religiously tended to his garden.
    The same does not hold true with the words theist and atheist.

    Not sure what you're trying to say with this statement.
    How does it relate to my proposition.
    Perhaps you could expand your explanation a little.
    You are using this definition of religion.

    Define religion:
    Webster - a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    Oxford - A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
    Dictionary - the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
    Cambridge - the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

    Something like money is the new religion per say. Right?

    Theist have a value “belief in god(s)”. The “a” on the front simply means not. Like the words asymmetrical, atypical, etc. So atheists simply means “no belief in god(s)”, nothing else is attributed to the word, it’s a null value. 

    How do you pursue a null value? How does a null value have principles? What are the practices of a null value? 

    To take it a step further if it were possible to call null values like atheism a pursuit, doesn’t than mean that all null values become a pursuit? Do you play golf? No, well that’s the “not playing golf” religion. 

    I’ve been an atheist my whole life, and over the years I have been told that I worship satan to eating babies and making nature disasters. That isn’t what atheism is. I’ve been told that atheist are this way or that way, or whatever. That isn’t what atheism is. Look at any definition and you’ll see theist and atheist are diametric opposites where theists “believe in god(s)” and atheist don’t. Unlike many words (religion) which get blurred because of common usage, theist and atheist don’t have that problem, they are very clear on the usage. To say it another way is to say being atheist means you have a lack of beliefs, a lack of practices, a lack of devotion, a lack of faith… a null value can’t be a religion.

    Now you could be anti-theist… that could be a religion. Pro science… that could be a religion. There are MANY other “values” that could be a religion… atheism can’t be though because of the semantics of the word, and the logic of how you are trying to use it.

    Ok. Thanks for explaining. I agree with what you are saying.

    Thank you, it's refreshing to actually have a debate on this site...

    Evidence
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Atheism exists to reject religion, whether by apathy - individually believing that no God exists and religion is unnecessary;  - or by action, where atheists might attempt to bring down religious establishments. The points you listed were very clear, logical, and EXCELLENTLY researched, as usual. However, from your first point I had my doubts. The way people answer questions is not indicative of a religion; it is trivial semanticity and not enough to make a broad judgement or definition of a group. While atheists are a demographic of people, and there are certainly those who try to follow or enforce a moral code, atheism is far more diverse in that not everyone chooses to believe in such codes. Plenty of atheists are nihilists and think that true morals don't exist. Ultimately, atheism is more of a philosophy than a religion: like any school of thought, there will be some purposeful organization, but as it is based off of the rejection of religion/God, I do not think it could be considered an organized religion, or a religion at all.

    @melanielust Yes, I agree with what you said: "Atheism exists to reject religion, .. and that.. it is based off of the rejection of religion/God", .. particularly the word "rejection", and not that they actually 'believe' God doesn't exist, which would by their own definition be a religion, if that is what atheists insist on defining 'belief', .. as a religion, right?

    May I ask you melanielust, what would you call a person (half of the men in my Old Catholic Country were like this) .. who claims he is a Catholic, which by definition is a Religion so he is religious by definition, yet never has opened the Bible, goes to church ONLY for weddings and makes sure everyone knows he's only there for the wedding, no confessions, no praying the Rosary, .. nothing. But he will defend his Catholic .. umm whatever, religion I guess to the death!? Oh, and ask him who God is, or if he believes in God or not, and his answer is "I have no idea if God exists or not, or who he is, nor do I care!"

    Is this man a theist, an atheist, .. what?

    Thanks.
    CovenySilverishGoldNova
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    Coveny said:
    At the end of the proverbial day.
    All religious and god bothering debates tend to boil down to the trading of linguistic semantics.

    Listen to me, I am more eloquent than you.

    Formal definition would say that Atheism cannot be regarded as a religion.
    Loose definition would say that anything could be regarded as a religion.

    Everyday he religiously tended to his garden.
    The same does not hold true with the words theist and atheist.

    Not sure what you're trying to say with this statement.
    How does it relate to my proposition.
    Perhaps you could expand your explanation a little.
    You are using this definition of religion.

    Define religion:
    Webster - a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    Oxford - A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
    Dictionary - the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
    Cambridge - the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

    Something like money is the new religion per say. Right?

    Theist have a value “belief in god(s)”. The “a” on the front simply means not. Like the words asymmetrical, atypical, etc. So atheists simply means “no belief in god(s)”, nothing else is attributed to the word, it’s a null value. 

    How do you pursue a null value? How does a null value have principles? What are the practices of a null value? 

    To take it a step further if it were possible to call null values like atheism a pursuit, doesn’t than mean that all null values become a pursuit? Do you play golf? No, well that’s the “not playing golf” religion. 

    I’ve been an atheist my whole life, and over the years I have been told that I worship satan to eating babies and making nature disasters. That isn’t what atheism is. I’ve been told that atheist are this way or that way, or whatever. That isn’t what atheism is. Look at any definition and you’ll see theist and atheist are diametric opposites where theists “believe in god(s)” and atheist don’t. Unlike many words (religion) which get blurred because of common usage, theist and atheist don’t have that problem, they are very clear on the usage. To say it another way is to say being atheist means you have a lack of beliefs, a lack of practices, a lack of devotion, a lack of faith… a null value can’t be a religion.

    Now you could be anti-theist… that could be a religion. Pro science… that could be a religion. There are MANY other “values” that could be a religion… atheism can’t be though because of the semantics of the word, and the logic of how you are trying to use it.

    Ok. Thanks for explaining. I agree with what you are saying.



    @Fredsnephew so you agree with what he was saying?
    Maybe then you can explain to me his comment:

    @Coveny said: Theist have a value “belief in god(s)”. The “a” on the front simply means not. Like the words asymmetrical, atypical, etc. So atheists simply means “no belief in god(s)”, nothing else is attributed to the word, it’s a null value.

    Oh really?

    OK, so "theist" means a belief in god/gods
    - I know of a preacher of many years, who one day admitted front of his successful church/congregation that he never believed there was a God. That he really tried, and prayed, but it never came.
    OK, so now because he read his Bible and knew the Bible practically backwards, that he was a preacher, a very good one at that for many years, he is struck being a theist? Or what would you, or @Coveny call him?

    They say "atheist" means not, .. that they don't believe that god/gods even exists
    - yet I have debated atheists for decades, and they both know the Bible, and can better define the God of the Bible than most Catholics I know, and even debate the Bible with JW's and prove them wrong!? So how can atheist doing all this religious things, and even claim to have a strong "faith" that gods don't exist, still be considered atheist?
    But I'm told, that because I have faith and read the Bible and can define our One True Creator, that I cannot be an atheist?

    They say "faith" means a belief in god/gods
    -Yet atheists claim they know for sure, and they claim that they truly believe ,.. in other words, they have strong faith in that there is no God, and can debate their beliefs, to no ends!?

    They say "religion" means a belief in god/gods
    - Yet a person can go for a run every morning for an hour, starting exactly at 6AM and do this religiously for many years, and never even consider the concept of God, never been in church, or ever opened a Bible!?

    So you see, an atheist can point to a Dictionary definition of "atheism", and religiously hold on to this definition, and believe/have strong 'faith' in this definition, but his "faith" he claims is not "religious", .. lol.

    You see the huge contradictions here? Atheists can know the Bible, can define Bible-God better than most people and everything else the Bible teaches about Him, become Ministers, and believe, or have strong faith that "God does not exist", and still claim that the dictionary definition is correct opposite of what they believe and preach, opposite the obvious! Now that is Religion, because it is full of lies!


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence He's an atheist or a . If he truly doesn’t believe god/gods exist then he’s an atheist, but if he’s doing it to get publicity or some kind of stunt he’s just making it up and deep down still believes.

    Most atheist were raised in theist families. (because that’s the majority) So knowledge of their family’s religion is expected. I was raised southern Baptist myself, but since have research several other religions, and debated as an atheist against them. In general, though atheist know religion better than theists… that’s why their atheists.

    Faith – You have changed the topic from what a person believes to how sure they are about that belief. If you don’t believe and you are sure of it you are an gnostic atheist, if you don’t believe but you aren’t 100% sure and open to new evidence on the topic you’re an agnostic atheist. I would also say that surety in the lack of something doesn’t imply “faith”. For example if I say because I've never seen a unicorn I'm sure they don't exist, there is anecdotal proof to back this up so it isn't faith. It’s far more likely that god/gods don’t exist than they do, as theists have tried to prove god/gods existence for 100s of years and failed, for some, that high of a percentage is enough for them to feel certain that god/gods don’t exist. 

    Now you are playing with the word religion. Religion in a god/gods is one definition, and pursuit of something is another definition of the same word. In your running example running is the religion, that is the value. Atheism doesn’t have a value, it’s only definition is the absences of a value. So atheism can’t be called a religion… unlike running. Now you could have an atheist runner, but then atheism isn’t how he’s religious… running is, so atheism still isn’t a religion.

    There is no contradiction here regardless of the semantics games you play. Having knowledge of fantasies doesn’t mean you believe they exist. (although it would be pretty cool in my opinion if wolverine did exist… but sadly he doesn’t even though there are numerous books that have been written about him) That you have such a hard time with the line between reality and fantasy is the reason I indicated you had dementia before even though 60 is a big young for it.
  • SnakesOfferingApplesSnakesOfferingApples 121 Pts   -   edited August 2017
    @Vaulk

    "1. Faith based belief.
    2. Ritualistic acts
    3. Moral code with supernatural origin
    4. A worldview and organization of one's life based upon such
    5. A social group bound together by the above"

    1 - No many atheists are motivated by science, and science indicates that there is no dependency on God for the world to exist.
    2 - What ritualistic acts?
    3 - Most atheists are legalists, that means they follow the law and that's it. No supernatural origin, man made law.
    4 - I'm an agnostic I don't go around saying I'm an agnostic 24/7. You're using the stereotype of the fedora wearing atheist to say this lol.
    5 - Why not talk to like minded people? People that like anime get together does that make anime a religion? It's easier to live with like minded people. 
    This account is dead, my political opinions have changed significantly and I'm no longer active.
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    @Coveny said to @Evidence He's an atheist or a . If he truly doesn’t believe god/gods exist then he’s an atheist, but if he’s doing it to get publicity or some kind of stunt he’s just making it up and deep down still believes.

    I gave you examples where people can be preachers, know and teach on the Bible and still claim they don't believe in a god/gods, yet you keep telling me that this guy would be a theist, period. Because Coveny has spoken, yet Coveny is not religious, nor does he believe that a god/gods exist.
    I have shown how contradicting this "belief system" of yours really is.

    Coveny - Most atheist were raised in theist families. (because that’s the majority) So knowledge of their family’s religion is expected. I was raised southern Baptist myself, but since have research several other religions, and debated as an atheist against them. In general, though atheist know religion better than theists… that’s why their atheists.

    EXACTLY, .. because as I said: "Theist/atheist" are two sides of the coin Religion. And you verify this in every debate, but because you are so overwhelmed by conflicting religious indoctrinations, you can't see/understand this?

    You see I have never ever debated, or acknowledged something I strongly believe doesn't exist. I wouldn't know where to even start, or HOW I would even bring up something that doesn't exist??

    Coveny - Faith – You have changed the topic from what a person believes to how sure they are about that belief. If you don’t believe and you are sure of it you are an gnostic atheist, if you don’t believe but you aren’t 100% sure and open to new evidence on the topic you’re an agnostic atheist. I would also say that surety in the lack of something doesn’t imply “faith”. For example if I say because I've never seen a unicorn I'm sure they don't exist, there is anecdotal proof to back this up so it isn't faith. It’s far more likely that god/gods don’t exist than they do, as theists have tried to prove god/gods existence for 100s of years and failed, for some, that high of a percentage is enough for them to feel certain that god/gods don’t exist.

    Here you go again, .. for Pete sakes Google "Gods" and see if they don't exist? These made up gods were carved and made up by theists, billions of theists worship these made up fairytale gods
    I don't bet, and you will not make me gamble, .. but I bet you a dollar that after Googling "gods" you will find that gods exist. Darn, now you made me gamble.

    Coveny - Now you are playing with the word religion. Religion in a god/gods is one definition, and pursuit of something is another definition of the same word. In your running example running is the religion, that is the value. Atheism doesn’t have a value, it’s only definition is the absences of a value. So atheism can’t be called a religion… unlike running. Now you could have an atheist runner, but then atheism isn’t how he’s religious… running is, so atheism still isn’t a religion.

    , .. before the atheist even puts on his running shoes and makes that first step in the morning, he is religious, who belongs to a very powerful religion called "atheism". Theist should refer to him belonging to their "sister church", the ones that claim they don't believe in the god/gods which they know about better than theists do (even you said that).
    Besides, if you believe that atheism has no value, why the heck would you join such worthless religion?

    Coveny - There is no contradiction here regardless of the semantics games you play.

    Atheists play the semantics game: "Duh, .. they say, if you have faith, you are religious and a theist. I know your god/gods better than you theist do, and the Bible too because I studied it enough, I know everything there is to know about your YHWH, and this is why I strongly 'believe' he doesn't exist!"
    Don't you see how, .. umm silly that sounds?

    Coveny - Having knowledge of fantasies doesn’t mean you believe they exist.

    So now you don't believe fantasies, something you have full knowledge of exist? Yet you defend NASA, alien-planets, Actornauts swimming in a big pool pretending they are in space-vacuum!?



    I've asked you this a dozen times already, but tell me again "Do you believe that the fantasy book 'Peter Pan' by J. M. Barrie exists or not?" Because I will even go far as buy you the book called Peter Pan to prove it exists, including in there where you will find; Tinkerbelle, Capt. Hook and the Lost Boys. I loved that fantasy when I was a kid, I still do. I'm just a 61 year old kid I guess who occasionally enjoy some fantasy, especially sci-fi fantasy like pretending NASA landed a Rover on Mars, then laughing about it with my Flat Earth friends.
    But yeah, I know, .. you would probably open the package from Barnes & Noble, look at the tittle: "Peter Pan, .. by J. M. Barrie", and tell me that you still don't believe it exists, just as you deny the existence of your Creator that you even admit you know about better than theists do!?

    Coveny - (although it would be pretty cool in my opinion if wolverine did exist… but sadly he doesn’t even though there are numerous books that have been written about him) That you have such a hard time with the line between reality and fantasy is the reason I indicated you had dementia before even though 60 is a big young for it.

    Dementia, .. you'd be better off with suffering from dementia than not seeing the irony in what you just said.

    So I'm the one having a hard time with the line between fantasy and reality? Tell me, where do you think fantasy exists? News Flash for you, .. millions of books on fantasy stories, science fiction stories, movies, you name it, they all exist in our reality. It is a big part of growing up. But you see what religion has done to you? You have lost the ability to discern reality where indoctrination has made you believe that idols of gods, millions of books on fairytales 'don't exist', .. this is what you "believe" Coveny! So how could I expect you to understand our One and Only Infinite Creator if you continue to live in your religious fantasy world where you deny reality, and accept sci-fi stories like the BB-Evolution and flying to the moon as real!?

    In my non-religious reality, .. fantasy exists exactly as it is defined, as "fantasy". I don't confuse fantasy with reality, instead I categorize them. This is reality, and that is fantasy, .. like that.
    Religion created god/gods are fantasy, .. and the Infinite and Eternal Creator in whose image we obviously were created, Intelligently Designed is reality.

    But what do you do? You claim that in our reality where fantasy today takes a very big part even in science, you say "it doesn't exist", .. like fairytale characters and religion-created gods, yet you live in a fairytale universe that even after we show you it's fantasy, you believe it to be your reality! Tell me, do you believe that CERN believes in, and worships the god Shiva, and even asks visitors to pray/concentrate to her on certain days so she can help them open a portal to the supernatural realm so Lucifer can come to them? They even have a Telescope specially dedicated to this event, it is called LUCIFER



    Well, I just about ran out of ways to explain this to you, but you are suffering from spiritual blindness, unable to discern between reality and fantasy, and one reason for this is your faith, .. that you believe you are an evolving ape. Not even an ape yet, .. only evolving!?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence Not what I said. I said atheist not theist, but for some reason the wires in your brain can’t handle anyone being an atheist, the MUST believes in god(s), and you’ll hear/listen to nothing else.

    Evidence if this discussion was about golfers(people who golfed) and agolfers (people who didn’t golf) you would have no problem grasping the concept me thinks. Just because someone know how to play golf that doesn’t make them a golfer. And new flash, I don’t like playing golf.

    Speaking of contradicting yourself and being a , you literally did that in the same sentence “I don't bet, and you will not make me gamble, .. but I bet you a dollar“. This betting while not betting is a theme of yours, isn’t it? Not believing in god(s) while believing in god(s) etc. You are contradiction central.

    You don’t “join” atheism… because it’s not a religion or a group. Just like you don’t join the “not a golfer” group. Now many atheists are also anti-theist, and THAT could be a group because that has a value. (stop theism) Atheist though just means you don’t believe in god(s).

    Believe has the same semantic issues as religion. You are using diffident definitions and acting like they are the same. Define believe for theists
    Webster -  to have a firm or wholehearted religious conviction or persuasion
    Oxford - Accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.
    YourDictionary - To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

    Define believe for atheist
    Webster -     to hold an opinion :  think 
    Oxford - Hold (something) as an opinion; think.
    YourDictionary - to suppose or think
     
    So do you understand how a person can believe something doesn’t exist and that not be faith? (I doubt it)

    That’s correct I don’t believe in fantasies. I defend NASA because it’s the most likely answer. I have critical thinking, and the science that I can understand and have looked through agrees with the facts they are presenting as well as them being a reputable organization.

    The BOOK Peter Pan exists, the character Peter Pan does not exist. I won’t debate that you love fantasy, but I will debate that you love it more than “occasionally” as you seem to be living it. A book written about Peter Pan doesn’t make Peter Pan exist anymore than a book about yahweh makes yahweh exist.

    A book with a fantasy in it, doesn’t mean the fantasy exists. I freely admit books exist, again you seem to have a hard concept with the line between fantasy and reality. I would also remind you that talking snakes/bushes, genocide, and torture are thinks you firmly believe exist and happened because your bible told you so. Does the bible exist? Yes. Do the characters from the bible exist? No. Now stop with your semantic word games.  

    Just like you believe religion created god(s) are fantasy, yahweh is the same to me. (maybe this will get through to you but I doubt it) Those “religion created god(s)” that you don’t believe exist, is just like how I feel about yahweh not existing. THIS is what makes me an atheist.

    You use so many words incorrectly, it’s very annoying talking to you.
    DawnBringerRiven
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    @Coveny said to:
    @Evidence Not what I said. I said atheist not theist, but for some reason the wires in your brain can’t handle anyone being an atheist, the MUST believes in god(s), and you’ll hear/listen to nothing else.

    Yes atheist, .. that is what I'm hoping to point out here, that both theists and atheists know, and can tell us about god/gods, about the Bible, about how much "faith" each one has regarding their religion, but then "atheists" deny they even exists!?

    "God, what god? .. Bible, what Bible? .. fairytale characters, Santa Claus, .. whaaa, .. they don't exist! Religion, .. oh no I'm not religious, just because I got up every morning at 6AM to run for an hour for the past 20 years don't mean I'm 'religious', ..  for me religion doesn't even exist, .. I'm an atheist!"

    Coveny - Evidence if this discussion was about golfers(people who golfed) and agolfers (people who didn’t golf) you would have no problem grasping the concept me thinks. Just because someone know how to play golf that doesn’t make them a golfer. And new flash, I don’t like playing golf.

    Yes, another good point, .. not only that, but let's say your father, your grandfather were all professional golfers, and they took you golfing with them every day so that by the time you were 9, you were considered a professional, but absolutely hated golf. And because that's what you were brought up in, and you were so good at it, you grew up to become a golf instructor because of the money in it. Now just because you hate golfing, would becoming an a-golfer who goes around telling people that "golf doesn't exist"  be an  acceptable concept for you?
    "Just because I'm a golf instructor doesn't mean I believe that golf exist, OK?" I'm an agolfer! A member of the society of golfers who don't believe golfing exist!

    Coveny - Speaking of contradicting yourself and being a , you literally did that in the same sentence “I don't bet, and you will not make me gamble, .. but I bet you a dollar“. This betting while not betting is a theme of yours, isn’t it? Not believing in god(s) while believing in god(s) etc. You are contradiction central.



    Nope, .. I'm not going to bet and you cannot make me, .. and I call quitsies!

    Coveny - You don’t “join” atheism… because it’s not a religion or a group. Just like you don’t join the “not a golfer” group. Now many atheists are also anti-theist, and THAT could be a group because that has a value. (stop theism) Atheist though just means you don’t believe in god(s).

    Oh the irony, .. I know what atheism means, and yes, you could join a "not a golfer group", .. or: "The He-man Women haters club", but hopefully not because you 'believe' women don't exist!?



    Here, let me find you an atheist mega-church close to you?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/10/atheist-mega-churches/3489967/

    Coveny - Believe has the same semantic issues as religion. You are using diffident definitions and acting like they are the same. Define believe for theists
    Webster -  to have a firm or wholehearted religious conviction or persuasion
    Oxford - Accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.
    YourDictionary - To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

    Excellent, and here again let me point out the millennia of Religious influence aka brainwashing on our society:
    Webster -  to have a firm or wholehearted religious conviction or persuasion

    I don't care what Webster says, I believe in God because of "evidence", not because some religion told me I have to. No Religion even knows my God, all they know are man-made gods, and worship deities (demons) in the supernatural realm, for whom they send their kids to witchcraft schools, like Schools of Divinity where they become Diviners for these demons that reside in the supernatural realm.

    Oxford - Accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.

    You see, .. what did I tell you? What moronic organization would force billions of people to accept something without proof, other than an organized Religion? Oxford is moronic, very religious in that definition of "believe".

    YourDictionary - To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

    Again, .. my faith is built on evidence with substance. The more evidence, the more "firm" my faith gets. See how even YouDictionary want's you to have blind religious faith! Brainwashing you, they all are doing the same thing because it was Religion that took over our educational system, who educated the authors of these Dictionaries.

    Coveny - Define believe for atheist
    Webster -     to hold an opinion :  think 
    Oxford - Hold (something) as an opinion; think.
    YourDictionary - to suppose or think

     So do you understand how a person can believe something doesn’t exist and that not be faith? (I doubt it)

    , .. how in the he.. umm, how in the world can anyone believe something without faith?? Yes, "think" man, think! if something exists as a Religious fairytale, we accept the stories, the characters on blind faith, .. even children know that. "Let's play pretend, let's watch Disney fairytales!" etc.
    But if we use our heads and think, we would not bow down to idols (theism) nor would we claim those idols are not real, or that they don't even exist (atheism)!

    Coveny - That’s correct I don’t believe in fantasies. I defend NASA because it’s the most likely answer. I have critical thinking, and the science that I can understand and have looked through agrees with the facts they are presenting as well as them being a reputable organization.

    And this is where the Jesuit-Darth Sidious would tell you: "Coveny my young Padawan, your training is now complete! You have entered the Dark Side of the force! Welcome to NASA!  Your first job, driving the New NASA's Mars bus!"



    Now go and grab a bunch of those new CGI pictures we just got in from ASU of new imaginary planets, galaxies and distribute them to our eagerly waiting MK-Ultra'd gullible subhumans, apes!"

    Coveny - The BOOK Peter Pan exists, the character Peter Pan does not exist.

    My Lord Coveny, are you serious? How can you say that the book exists, but not the character the book portrays? Read the title of the book, .. it says it right there! This is how the character Peter Pan exists. No book, no Peter Pan.

    Coveny - I won’t debate that you love fantasy, but I will debate that you love it more than “occasionally” as you seem to be living it. A book written about Peter Pan doesn’t make Peter Pan exist anymore than a book about yahweh makes yahweh exist.

    .. go ahead, don't stop there, how about a book about Abraham Lincoln, or John F. Kennedy, or .. oh never mind. What's the use explaining that a fairytale character in a book exists as a fairytale character, and a biography of a human exists as a biography of a human, a man of some great importance!? They both exist Coveny, each in it's proper perspective.

    Coveny - A book with a fantasy in it, doesn’t mean the fantasy exists.

    Ouch, ..
    Take it from someone who knows, who at 61 still watches fantasy with his children, and points out to them how todays World Rulers are forcing their religious fantasy on the worlds population as reality. I feel obligated to keep up with their fantasy, so I can spot it right away when they try to sneak it into reality, claiming it as science, you see? If fantasy didn't exist, you would not be talking about Mars missions, Big-Bangs in nothing, redshit Pixy dust left over from an explosion millions and billions of years ago.

    Coveny - I freely admit books exist, again you seem to have a hard concept with the line between fantasy and reality. I would also remind you that talking snakes/bushes, genocide, and torture are thinks you firmly believe exist and happened because your bible told you so. Does the bible exist? Yes. Do the characters from the bible exist? No. Now stop with your semantic word games.

    Me stop? I'm not the one trying to convince you that the pages and pages of characters in books; "don't exist. The books do, .. but pssst, .. the characters are really not there. They don't exist! Just pretend those pages with the characters that I Coveny don't particularly like, are blank!"

    Coveny - Just like you believe religion created god(s) are fantasy, yahweh is the same to me. (maybe this will get through to you but I doubt it)

    Yes, yes Coveny, now that makes sense. The "religion" created gods ARE fantasy, and the religion even tells you that if you want to keep coming to their church, you'll just have to take those god/gods on blind faith or you will end up asking too many questions, and may end up getting excommunicated like I have.

    Now you say that YHWH is the same to you as those religion created gods, and as I have been explaining this to you, that this is because the only Yahweh you know is the one you've been taught by your Christian Religion that he is one of the gods in Greek-mythology/theology.. That's why you are an atheist.

    Remember how many times I asked you to Just go and ask your old Ministers and Pastors to tell you "who their Jesus is, and who they say their god/gods are?"
    Can you do that? I mean come on, don't you want to actually "prove me wrong", not just keep saying: "You're wrong, .. your wrong, .. your , ignorant and wrong Evidence!" .. but prove it to me?

    This goes for anyone else reading this post, theist/atheist alike, what is the god/gods you believe, or not believe in, because the reason for both of your beliefs (theist or atheist) may be wrapped in the definition of your gods.

    Like the "Take a picture with Santa" example I gave, the man dressed up as Batman with a sign next to him: "Take a Picture with Santa!", now he would be a "fake Santa".

    Same with the gods in religions, they are not our One and Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator described in the Bible, or who is obvious in creation itself, the Invisible Spirit/Mind "I Am", because the god/gods in religion are all theos-gods from Greek mythology, only the names have been changed.
    Instead, they are either just idols with some fairytale story behind him/her/it, or deities/demons who reside in the supernatural realm. using the Bible and renaming your gods after Biblical characters doesn't make them the same.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_deities

    Coveny - Those “religion created god(s)” that you don’t believe exist, is just like how I feel about yahweh not existing. THIS is what makes me an atheist.

    When, .. for the hundredth time, .. when did I ever say I don't believe that them "religion created gods" exist?

    Again, ..
    Yes they do exist! They exists as all religiously created gods, made up, each with special superpowers, and history behind them.
    Like the Christian sun-god Jesus can be considered any of these male/female ancient Greek gods in theism:

    Alectrona, goddess of the morning and man's waking senseAthena, goddess of wisdom and crafts, with solar deity characteristicsApollo, Olympian god of light, the sun, prophecy, healing, plague, archery, music and poetryEos, Titan goddess of the dawnHelios, Titan god of the sunHyperion, Titan god of lightNeaera, goddess of the rising sunPhanes, protogenoi of light and life, described with "golden wings", surrounded by the signs of the Zodiac and equated with MithrasTheia, a titan goddess associated with the sunZeus, the king of the gods, which is equated with Helios and has solar characteristics in some regional cults
    It's what Religion is all about!

    Coveny - You use so many words incorrectly, it’s very annoying talking to you.


    The feeling is mutual. But in hopes of saving someone, even one from Religion, I continue the fight with all the evidence I can get my hands on!
    DawnBringerRiven
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence Because you and theist like you can’t prove god(s) exist.

    Doesn’t matter “of what”, doesn’t matter “what bible”, I don’t believe ANY of them exist. Answer your own question however you like, my answer will still be I don’t believe they exist.

    If I grew up golfing, and then I QUIT golfing,  instructing (because that’s still golfing), and everything else that has to do with golfing then I would be agolfer. This analogy has nothing to do with existence, there is proof that golfing exists (unlike your uncreated creator), this is about someone who is NOT something. Is there an agolfing club? Is there an aracing club? Are you a member of the club for everything you do NOT do? No you aren’t… maybe you will have a problem grasping this after all, and I over estimated you.

    I’ve seen the atheist gatherings, and I think they are just a group of ex-theist who don’t want to lose the community that goes with being a theist. Technically they don’t “teach” atheism, nor do they have practices, or worship. There is an oppressive nature to being the minority, and if that helps them, more power to them, but it’s an ex-theist group, and an atheist group in my opinion, but I’ll agree I’m splitting hairs on that point.

    You have no evidence, or proof of god. Your faith isn’t built on anything but indoctrination.

    Your word games make it impossible to not have blind faith, you create this strawman with semantics, but that’s not what the words mean.

    NASA bus works for me.

    You think Peter Pan exists… that’s cute.

    And you just gave Peter Pan equal footing in reality with Abraham Lincoln… nope not responding to that.

    I will NOT take it from you on faith, you’ll need to prove it. I’m not buying what you’re selling.

    You may be correct here because if it weren’t for those fantasy theist views of yours and people like you, we could have skipped the dark ages when religion was in charge and we could already BE on mars, and not just talking about being on Mars. Thousands of years of halting progress, that’s what god(s) like yours have done by making people think the flat earth exists.

    It has nothing to do with whether I like the characters they still don’t exist. I’m a big fan of Wolverine but I still know he doesn’t’ exist. 

    Ask a preacher to tell me “who their jesus is, and who they say their god/gods are?” Ok preacher answer your own question because you are on here preaching your religion to the masses, so you just as qualified as any of the others in my opinion. (With the qualified part being “believes in sky fairies)

    So if odin exists and as there is written proof he created the world from the remains of Ymir (It’s a better fantasy than yahweh’s if you want my opinion) you believe it right? Here is the story for reference from this site https://norse-mythology.org/tales/norse-creation-myth/.

    *******
    Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

    Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir, the first of the godlike giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he sweated, more giants were born.

    As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumbla, emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri, the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor, who married Bestla, the daughter of the giant Bolthorn. The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

    Odin and his brothers slew Ymir and set about constructing the world from his corpse. They fashioned the oceans from his blood, the soil from his skin and muscles, vegetation from his hair, clouds from his brains, and the sky from his skull. Four dwarves, corresponding to the four cardinal points, held Ymir’s skull aloft above the earth.

    The gods eventually formed the first man and woman, Ask and Embla, from two tree trunks, and built a fence around their dwelling-place, Midgard, to protect them from the giants.
    *****

    So tell me how can both exist? How can both have created the world?

    You aren’t saving me from anything, and I’m not trying to save you from anything. I just don’t want your crazy voice anti-evidence to be unopposed. 
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    At the end of the proverbial day.
    All religious and god bothering debates tend to boil down to the trading of linguistic semantics.

    Listen to me, I am more eloquent than you.

    Formal definition would say that Atheism cannot be regarded as a religion.
    Loose definition would say that anything could be regarded as a religion.

    Everyday he religiously tended to his garden.
    I would have said belief system. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence Because you and theist like you can’t prove god(s) exist.

    Doesn’t matter “of what”, doesn’t matter “what bible”, I don’t believe ANY of them exist. Answer your own question however you like, my answer will still be I don’t believe they exist.

    If I grew up golfing, and then I QUIT golfing,  instructing (because that’s still golfing), and everything else that has to do with golfing then I would be agolfer. This analogy has nothing to do with existence, there is proof that golfing exists (unlike your uncreated creator), this is about someone who is NOT something. Is there an agolfing club? Is there an aracing club? Are you a member of the club for everything you do NOT do? No you aren’t… maybe you will have a problem grasping this after all, and I over estimated you.

    I’ve seen the atheist gatherings, and I think they are just a group of ex-theist who don’t want to lose the community that goes with being a theist. Technically they don’t “teach” atheism, nor do they have practices, or worship. There is an oppressive nature to being the minority, and if that helps them, more power to them, but it’s an ex-theist group, and an atheist group in my opinion, but I’ll agree I’m splitting hairs on that point.

    You have no evidence, or proof of god. Your faith isn’t built on anything but indoctrination.

    Your word games make it impossible to not have blind faith, you create this strawman with semantics, but that’s not what the words mean.

    NASA bus works for me.

    You think Peter Pan exists… that’s cute.

    And you just gave Peter Pan equal footing in reality with Abraham Lincoln… nope not responding to that.

    I will NOT take it from you on faith, you’ll need to prove it. I’m not buying what you’re selling.

    You may be correct here because if it weren’t for those fantasy theist views of yours and people like you, we could have skipped the dark ages when religion was in charge and we could already BE on mars, and not just talking about being on Mars. Thousands of years of halting progress, that’s what god(s) like yours have done by making people think the flat earth exists.

    It has nothing to do with whether I like the characters they still don’t exist. I’m a big fan of Wolverine but I still know he doesn’t’ exist. 

    Ask a preacher to tell me “who their jesus is, and who they say their god/gods are?” Ok preacher answer your own question because you are on here preaching your religion to the masses, so you just as qualified as any of the others in my opinion. (With the qualified part being “believes in sky fairies)

    So if odin exists and as there is written proof he created the world from the remains of Ymir (It’s a better fantasy than yahweh’s if you want my opinion) you believe it right? Here is the story for reference from this site https://norse-mythology.org/tales/norse-creation-myth/.

    *******
    Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

    Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir, the first of the godlike giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he sweated, more giants were born.

    As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumbla, emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri, the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor, who married Bestla, the daughter of the giant Bolthorn. The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

    Odin and his brothers slew Ymir and set about constructing the world from his corpse. They fashioned the oceans from his blood, the soil from his skin and muscles, vegetation from his hair, clouds from his brains, and the sky from his skull. Four dwarves, corresponding to the four cardinal points, held Ymir’s skull aloft above the earth.

    The gods eventually formed the first man and woman, Ask and Embla, from two tree trunks, and built a fence around their dwelling-place, Midgard, to protect them from the giants.
    *****

    So tell me how can both exist? How can both have created the world?

    You aren’t saving me from anything, and I’m not trying to save you from anything. I just don’t want your crazy voice anti-evidence to be unopposed. 
    How can a Religion, any religion stand if its foundation is built on loose ground, even sand like the example you just gave!?
    What's the difference between that, and your BB-Religion that starts out: "Long, long time ago before time, in a place before space existed, there was a little quantum particle we'll call "speck".
    Now speck was an angry little speck, so angry that one day (before time) it just couldn't contain his little self and blew up with  Big Bang! .. you're atheist Pastors Lawrence Krauss, and Richard Dawkins can finish up the rest of the story for you.

    The ONLY reason the Christian Religion flourishes is because they have the Bible, but the god/gods they give humanity is their own god that they have always worshipped, the god of this world, only now wrapped in Christ's teaching.

    That snake, he sure knows how to deceive don't he?

    You didn't even fight, you had no ammunition other than blanks to defend your confusing and contradicting beliefs, and you even ran out of blanks. There is nothing to defend, .. what, that you don't believe that 'faith' exists?  Or try to convince people that your religious cult is not a religion?

    You have not opposed anything I said Coveny, the only thing I have to be careful of is where I stand when you fall, because the fall will be great! Fall, .. as will all religions, but not before that last flicker lights up just before all Religions will go out, into darkness. That flicker is that last "Purge" that Lucifer has been planning and setting up for humanity, all in the name of "peace and security" with atheism leading the way.

    I love how Satan spreads the lie that he want's all guns taken away from the public, knowing that it will just drive gun sales through the roof, .. lol

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/05/gun-sales-hit-new-record-ahead-of-new-obama-gun-restrictions/?utm_term=.dd0337a4f5ae

    How else can he make that last "Purge" a success, and wipe out 1/3 of humanity with that alone unless everyone got a gun. People are so naïve, they forget that the more resistance against the OWO, the more people Lucifer can kill?

    Like Dunkirk, all the allies sent their men from all over Europe onto the most open beaches of Dunkirk France to get as many slaughtered as possible, .. unbelievable, and they even make a movie out of it to rub it in our faces! Oh how Lucifer and his atheist army is laughing!
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence christian flourish because they killed all who opposed them.

    I believe faith exists, but I don't believe faith in something means that something exists.

    I oppose almost everything you say, pay attention.

    Yahweh created evil, humans have free will not angels, ergo satan is just doing yahweh's will per the bible you love so much.

    Not commenting on movies as proof...
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    I don't label myself an atheist, it is the label theists have deemed those who don't accept their doctrines, this in light of the fact they don't accept the doctrines of other theists.

    The reality of this situation is all about accepting, or not, the claims of theists, they tell me all about their God but can't seem to produce anything other than their holy books to support their claims. After reminding them that books are not evidence of anything, that they are simply references, the theist is left standing empty handed.The theist however, still expects you to accept them.

    If not accepting empty claims is a religion, then anything can be called a religion, which then diminishes the term to "the non-acceptance of claims".

    Should someone be alerting Websters?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Goldtop said:
    I don't label myself an atheist, it is the label theists have deemed those who don't accept their doctrines, this in light of the fact they don't accept the doctrines of other theists.

    The reality of this situation is all about accepting, or not, the claims of theists, they tell me all about their God but can't seem to produce anything other than their holy books to support their claims. After reminding them that books are not evidence of anything, that they are simply references, the theist is left standing empty handed.The theist however, still expects you to accept them.

    If not accepting empty claims is a religion, then anything can be called a religion, which then diminishes the term to "the non-acceptance of claims".

    Should someone be alerting Websters?
    Religion has nothing to do with the difference between theism and atheism, and everything to do with believing in god(s). A person can be completely non-religious, believe in god, and be a theist. A person could be religious (so long as it didn't include the belief in god(s)) and be an atheist. Although there is some correlation between being religious and being a theist it's not a requirement, just as being non-religious and atheist correlate but aren't required.

    Websters is fine just the way it is...
    Evidence
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    Goldtop said:
    I don't label myself an atheist, it is the label theists have deemed those who don't accept their doctrines, this in light of the fact they don't accept the doctrines of other theists.

    The reality of this situation is all about accepting, or not, the claims of theists, they tell me all about their God but can't seem to produce anything other than their holy books to support their claims. After reminding them that books are not evidence of anything, that they are simply references, the theist is left standing empty handed.The theist however, still expects you to accept them.

    If not accepting empty claims is a religion, then anything can be called a religion, which then diminishes the term to "the non-acceptance of claims".

    Should someone be alerting Websters?
    Religion has nothing to do with the difference between theism and atheism, and everything to do with believing in god(s). A person can be completely non-religious, believe in god, and be a theist. A person could be religious (so long as it didn't include the belief in god(s)) and be an atheist. Although there is some correlation between being religious and being a theist it's not a requirement, just as being non-religious and atheist correlate but aren't required.

    Websters is fine just the way it is...

    Your post is confusing and it appears you're contradicting yourself. Try looking up the definitions of the terms you're using to see the errors in your post.

    Evidence
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Goldtop Sorry about your confusion let me see if I can get you to a better place of understanding. First off lets look at definitions to theist:

    Dictionary - belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism)
    Webster - belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically: belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
    Oxford - Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
    Cambridge - belief in the existence of a god or gods

    So there is little disagreement in the definition of theist, and that’s defined as belief in the existence of god(s). Atheist is the antonym of theist with the use of the letter “A”. (Other words that follow this pattern are asymmetric, atypical, agnostic, etc) So atheist is just someone who does not believe in god(s). Not to be confused with someone who is against theism/anti-theist or the degree certainty that a person does or does not believe. (gnostic is absolute certainty, where agnostic is not absolute certainty in their belief or non-belief in god(s))

    Many like yourself believe religion = theist, but that isn’t the case. The definition of religion gets a bit murky because it doesn’t always apply to god(s). So something like “he religious in his workouts” is the correct usage of the word. Also, most theists are religious, and are part of a religion so they get lumped together with theist even though that’s not what the word means. The easiest way to notice this distinction is to think it terms of different religions a Catholic, Jew, and Muslim are all theists for instance even though they have different religions the term theist still applies to all of them equally. 

    Also, you can believe in god(s) but not be religious. This is normally seen with people who believe in god, but don’t follow a particular religion. In cases those they will generally have some of the beliefs from the religion they left, but disagree with that religion enough to not be considered a member of it, and also not have a following/religion for that new set of beliefs. 

    So being a theist or atheist has nothing to do with religion, and only depends on if you believe in god(s). 

    Does that clear things up for you, and show you how it’s not a contradiction?
    Evidence
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    Coveny, I think you really need to read your posts back so you can see the contradictions. Read them carefully. You appear very confused.

    Evidence
  • Atheism is NOT theism. Basic knowledge of the English language shows that the letter A means NOT. Aphotic means no light. Atheist literally means no god. It literally means NOT RELIGION.
    SilverishGoldNova
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Goldtop at this point you'll need to tell me which part confuses you if you would like me to help you understand. I have read my posts, and the points are very clear to me with no contradictions. I try to be open to helping people understand but at this point I'm not sure that you do want to understand. So tell me the part you find confusing or contradictory and I will attempt to clarify that part.
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    Coveny, I understand perfectly what I was talking about, but it appears you did not. Sorry, I'm not interested in clearing up your confusion or contradictions.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Goldtop said:
    Coveny, I understand perfectly what I was talking about, but it appears you did not. Sorry, I'm not interested in clearing up your confusion or contradictions.
    There is no confusion or contradictions in my statements. If you believe there is then the burden of proof is on you to show it, or . I have explained my position, so either put up, or . 
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    @Coveny- my my, you're just a petulant child.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Goldtop said:
    @Coveny- my my, you're just a petulant child.
    And now you are down to name calling. How quickly people who want to sound smart, but aren't fall back to threats and name calling.
    Evidence
  • GoldtopGoldtop 21 Pts   -  
    @Coveny

    So, you tell me to , I tell you you're a child for telling me to and somehow I'm name calling and threatening. Take a hike Jack
    SilverishGoldNova
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Goldtop said:
    @Coveny
    So, you tell me to , I tell you you're a child for telling me to and somehow I'm name calling and threatening. Take a hike Jack
    So apparently telling you to put up or means I told you to because you had no argument to put up. Gotcha. Why are you on a debate website again? 
    Evidence
  • SilverishGoldNovaSilverishGoldNova 1201 Pts   -   edited September 2017
    Goldtop said:
    @Coveny

    So, you tell me to , I tell you you're a child for telling me to and somehow I'm name calling and threatening. Take a hike Jack
    In the flat Earth debate he uses/used constant ad homs and other fallacies then admitted to it (before going to back to denying it in an endless cycle) and then said I was threatening and dehumanizing him for calling him a troll. He always responds with basic cliche answers, and when he or his buddies are questioned will either mark your comment as spam or resort to insults (and other fallacies, most often red herring, strawman, cherry picking or gish galloping).
    Coveny
    I am no longer active on DebateIsland or any debate website. Many things I have posted here and on other sites (Such as believing in the flat Earth theory or other conspiracy theories such as those that are about the Las Vegas Shooting or 9/11) do not reflect on my current views. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit

    https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/18248/#Comment_18248 (Me officially stating that I am no longer a flat-Earther)
  • JoePineapplesJoePineapples 138 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    For reference, we'll be discussing "Western Atheism".  As a disclaimer, I make no supposition that "All" of any group of individuals are "All" the same or "All" believe the same way.  For the purpose of debating this subject it's necessary to establish that in this context, "Atheists" is a reference to the prominent leaders (And the numbers that maintain their belief) in Atheism in Western Culture today: Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Stephen Hawking, Steven Pinker, Michael Shermer and Peter Singer.  Understanding that there are individuals out there who do not necessarily believe the same way that the individuals listed above do, we're going to discuss prominent Atheism as the majority and not the exception to the group.


    The case for the assertion that Atheism can be viewed as a Religion can be found in an answer that an Atheist might have for the question "Are you a Christian"? 

    An Atheist might answer with, "No, I'm an Atheist".

    When asked "Are you a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu"?  An Atheist may answer the same, "No, I'm an Atheist". 

    This is indicative that being an Atheist is analogous to being a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist.  On the same hand this also suggests that Atheism is analogous to Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.  In layman's terms, Atheism can be viewed as comparable to Religion.

    You don't see the ridiculousness of this false comparison?
    Following your logic, I could ask someone if they like strawberry Ice-cream and if they say "No, I'm ice-cream abstinent" I could say they're still an ice-cream eater.
    I don't get a great deal of free time, for this reason there may be long periods between my posts.
    Please don't expect me to respond with insults and memes, I don't have time for it.
    Please don't expect me to respond to Gish-galloping, I don't have time for it.
  • SilverishGoldNovaSilverishGoldNova 1201 Pts   -   edited September 2017
    Goldtop said:
    @Coveny

    So, you tell me to , I tell you you're a child for telling me to and somehow I'm name calling and threatening. Take a hike Jack
    In the flat Earth debate he uses/used constant ad homs and other fallacies then admitted to it (before going to back to denying it in an endless cycle) and then said I was threatening and dehumanizing him for calling him a troll. He always responds with basic cliche answers, and when he or his buddies are questioned will either mark your comment as spam or resort to insults (and other fallacies, most often red herring, strawman, cherry picking or gish galloping).
    like that

    Atheism is NOT theism. Basic knowledge of the English language shows that the letter A means NOT. Aphotic means no light. Atheist literally means no god. It literally means NOT RELIGION.

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or drought flooding
    I am no longer active on DebateIsland or any debate website. Many things I have posted here and on other sites (Such as believing in the flat Earth theory or other conspiracy theories such as those that are about the Las Vegas Shooting or 9/11) do not reflect on my current views. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit

    https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/18248/#Comment_18248 (Me officially stating that I am no longer a flat-Earther)
  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
    Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. 

    No we don't believe there is no god, we just don't believe in any. So simple, it isn't a religion, because: religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, which we don't have. 

    CovenyEvidenceCYDdharta
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
  • The argument that "because it takes *faith* to not believe in God, atheism is a religion" is rediculous. Firstly, atheists do not believe God does not exist. They simply do not care. If I don't care to sit at the DMV for six hours, does not mean that I have extreme faith in not going? No. If my co-worker is doing a project that if done right, could get him a huge raise and I don't care about that co-worker, does that mean I have faith that co-worker will fail? No. Secondly, If all you need was profound feelings that a popular belief was false for for something to be a religion, that means flat Earth would be a religion, Anti vaxxers would be a religion, moon landing being faked would also be a religion. Atheism, is not a religion.
  • JoePineapplesJoePineapples 138 Pts   -   edited September 2017
    The argument that "because it takes *faith* to not believe in God, atheism is a religion" is rediculous. Firstly, atheists do not believe God does not exist. They simply do not care. If I don't care to sit at the DMV for six hours, does not mean that I have extreme faith in not going? No. If my co-worker is doing a project that if done right, could get him a huge raise and I don't care about that co-worker, does that mean I have faith that co-worker will fail? No. Secondly, If all you need was profound feelings that a popular belief was false for for something to be a religion, that means flat Earth would be a religion, Anti vaxxers would be a religion, moon landing being faked would also be a religion. Atheism, is not a religion.
    Although this is true for myself, and evidently yourself, it is not a rule that atheists can't hold the beliefe that God (or gods) does not exist. Even for atheists who do hold that belief, it doesn't make them any more religious than it makes them more sporty or more hairy. I believe there's food in my fridge but that doesn't mean I'm religious about my fridge.
    DawnBringerRivenEvidence
    I don't get a great deal of free time, for this reason there may be long periods between my posts.
    Please don't expect me to respond with insults and memes, I don't have time for it.
    Please don't expect me to respond to Gish-galloping, I don't have time for it.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s), It's a null value, it is not a belief, or a lack of caring. It's a simply binary question. Do you believe in god(s), a creator, supreme spiritual being, etc? 

    if yes, you are an theist
    If no, you are an atheist

    Now some take it a step further and say they believe god(s) doesn't exist, but this is just the same statement phrased with more certainty, as saying "I don't believe in god(s)" has the same meaning as "I believe god(s) don't exist". There is no difference in position between those two statements. 
    George_Horse
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    @George_Horse @Coveny @JoePineapples ; @DawnBringerRiven ; @SilverishGoldNova I have a few questions for you my fellow debaters, and by the way, I love you guys and love reading your debates. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of it. Oh, and I apologize for my grade-school vocabulary, and thank God (the Only One True Infinite Creator), .. and the person who invented the spelling-checkerer!

    First, what Coveny said: It's a simply binary question. Do you believe in god(s), a creator, supreme spiritual being, etc? 

    if yes, you are an theist
    If no, you are an atheist

    Q. If there really, and truly was no God/gods to believe in, could you be an atheist?

    Careful how you answer!
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence please don't start in with the word games...

    An atheist doesn't believe god(s) exist. (I find people who use "really", "truly", and "honestly" tend to be liars) Nor do we believe in your uncreated creator who you say isn't a god because there isn't a religion. Also just because you have knowledge of something doesn't mean it exists. 

    That being said, and I may regret this later, if there were no such thing as a theist, then no one could be an atheist.
    George_Horse
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence please don't start in with the word games...

    An atheist doesn't believe god(s) exist. (I find people who use "really", "truly", and "honestly" tend to be liars) Nor do we believe in your uncreated creator who you say isn't a god because there isn't a religion. Also just because you have knowledge of something doesn't mean it exists. 

    That being said, and I may regret this later, if there were no such thing as a theist, then no one could be an atheist.


    Wholey smoley, jeepers creepers, what's with you atheists?

    Tell me @Coveny ; Can you show me something, or someone, ..  anything that "doesn't exist"?

    NO.

    Because if you shown me, that would be proof of its existence, .. duh!

    But it seems that if I shown you tens of thousands of "things", like man-made gods, then you atheists can claim "they don't exist"!? Yep, because you believe in science, .. LOL! Now how crazy is that?

    Here is the Atheists Pope, the Guru of all atheism Richard Dawkins claiming to be a scientist, and claims that the thousands of man-made gods that have Billions of worshipers "don't exist", but he does believes that "Something can come from Nothing", .. because he is a scientist who observes the world around him! Okeydokey then, .. bye, bye, curl in a corner with thumb in mouth, fidgeting with a strand of hair!

    Atheism gots to be the most ridiculous, mindless, evil religion there is, and the millions, if not billions of people who were tortured to death, starved, and murdered in this atheistic religion AKA Communism proves it.
    CovenyErfisflatSilverishGoldNova
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence and so the word games begin.

    I don't need to show you something doesn't exist. You are making the claim therefore you have the burden of proof to show it exists.

    And of course don't forget the insults, and strawmen.
    EvidenceSilverishGoldNova
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence and so the word games begin.

    I don't need to show you something doesn't exist. You are making the claim therefore you have the burden of proof to show it exists.

    And of course don't forget the insults, and strawmen.

    @Coveny
    Insults? Me, insult you, .. after reading this: Coveny said: "I don't need to show you something doesn't exist. You are making the claim therefore you have the burden of proof to show it exists."

    Here is what I wrote:
    Can you show me something, or someone, ..  anything that "doesn't exist"?
    NO.
    Because if you shown me, that would be proof of its existence!

    God, including all the man-made gods exist, just as I have shown.

    Would it help you to believe in their existence if I bought you one of those theistic-gods, or goddess and sent it to you?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence well I don't consider "ridiculous, mindless, evil" as a compliment...

    You say something exists, you need to prove it's existence, stop sifting the burden of proof.




    DawnBringerRivenEvidenceSilverishGoldNova
  • THEDENIERTHEDENIER 78 Pts   -  
    Atheism is fundamentally different because Atheism lacks a need for faith without evidence. Atheism may share some of the same dogmatic qualities, but that does not mean it is a religions. Fundamentally, any true Atheist can justify their beliefs with solid material evidence. Obviously, religions relies on no such thing. If one asks a Christian why they believe something, they can't often respond with a scientifically article or a study, because their beliefs rest on faith. Not evidence unlike Atheism. 
    DawnBringerRivenCovenyEvidenceGeorge_Horse
  • JoePineapplesJoePineapples 138 Pts   -   edited September 2017
    Evidence said:
    @George_Horse @Coveny @JoePineapples ; @DawnBringerRiven ; @SilverishGoldNova I have a few questions for you my fellow debaters, and by the way, I love you guys and love reading your debates. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of it. Oh, and I apologize for my grade-school vocabulary, and thank God (the Only One True Infinite Creator), .. and the person who invented the spelling-checkerer!

    First, what Coveny said: It's a simply binary question. Do you believe in god(s), a creator, supreme spiritual being, etc? 

    if yes, you are an theist
    If no, you are an atheist

    Q. If there really, and truly was no God/gods to believe in, could you be an atheist?

    Careful how you answer!
    Of course you could, it's not about any of the thousands of gods actually existing or not, it's about what you do or don't believe. So if none of the gods do exist (extremely likely) you can still be;

    a) A theist, as long as you're with belief in one or more of those gods
    or
    b) An atheist, as long as you're without belief in all of those gods
    CovenyGeorge_HorseEvidence
    I don't get a great deal of free time, for this reason there may be long periods between my posts.
    Please don't expect me to respond with insults and memes, I don't have time for it.
    Please don't expect me to respond to Gish-galloping, I don't have time for it.
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    THEDENIER said:
    Atheism is fundamentally different because Atheism lacks a need for faith without evidence. Atheism may share some of the same dogmatic qualities, but that does not mean it is a religions. Fundamentally, any true Atheist can justify their beliefs with solid material evidence. Obviously, religions relies on no such thing. If one asks a Christian why they believe something, they can't often respond with a scientifically article or a study, because their beliefs rest on faith. Not evidence unlike Atheism. 

    Oh yeah, that: Faith without evidence, or the fools-faith again,  from; @THEDENIER, of @Evidence.

    Organized Religions, all Organized Religions have their own personal God/gods/creators which are NOT our One and Only Possible Infinite God. So of course they require you to have this special Religion created/version of 'faith', which is that it does not require any evidence. Matter of fact the last thing any Religion need is someone to come in and ask them questions, seeking some kind of evidence for their doctrines. I have gone to most of the bigger denominational Churches, (Baptist, J.W's, 7thD-Adv. Mormons, Apostolic Christians, .. you name it) and as soon as I requested to speak to the Pastors/Ministers about doctrines, I could just feel their uneasiness to talk about it, and some flatly refused to do so. It is exactly because all Religions require people that come in there to accept what they offer, and how they offer it without any questions. If you don't like that, there is the door, where out there are tens of thousands of other theist/atheist Religions just waiting for you. Surely you can find one that scratches your itching ears!?

    This is NOT the faith that the Bible asks us to build our faith in our Infinite Creator. (oh, and I know you guys are just playing with me because I have explained this about a hundred times already. But oh well, doesn't look like any of you Religious theist/atheist folk will ever move past this, so here I go again.)
    Matter of fact, the 'faith' that the Bible asks for is evidence with substance. In other words, the Bible is very specific in telling us that "before you just jump into some religion and start bowing before their gods, check into it? Ask yourself:

    Do those gods speak, or hear what you have to say? Do they really care that you go far as sacrifice you children to them? Or send your sons and daughters to fight their wars? The Priests of that religion, .. do they care about you like our Heavenly Father cares about you?

    Hebrew 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    In other words, if you don't have any verifiable evidence of something, not just any evidence, but evidence with substance of something even if that something cannot be seen with the naked eye (like our Creator who is Spirit) then don't put your faith in it. Check into it first.

    Again, the God that the Bible speaks of, that I and you should worship comes by evidence with a lot of substance, and NOT blind faith. If anyone prefers to blindly follow and worship someone because of their popularity, .. like this one:



    .. hey, they can go for it. God gave us free will. Who knows, she might throw a cup of her urine towards them where they can say: "I'll never wash again".

    And here we have a perfect example of "blind faith":




    The people in the audience would never ask either Dawkins, or deGrasse Tyson if the "universe" that they are talking about, this infinitely expanding vacuum that being inflated by gravity, evolving the millions and billions of planets exist or not? And the evidence of it?

    THEDENIER - If one asks a Christian why they believe something, they can't often respond with a scientifically article or a study, because their beliefs rest on faith. Not evidence unlike Atheism.

    Wrong. The Christian Religion aka Catholic Christian Religion have the most powerful telescopes in the world, the LUCIFER telescope being one of them, they have also built the best schools/collages in the world too, all equipped with globes and science books full of NASA CGI pictures of fairytale planets, .. and since they have taken over science, they can present you with a plethora of scientific articles, or so they call it: "scientific", which is actually a perverted Religious version of science, or pseudoscience. Oh, and they run both sides of the theistic/atheistic Religion.
    Theistic: worship of man-made gods and doctrines,
    and atheistic the denial of these gods with pseudoscience.

    Again:
    theism/atheism are two sides of the same coin, which is Religion, and there is the evidence, .. again.
    THEDENIER
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Evidence said:
    @George_Horse @Coveny @JoePineapples ; @DawnBringerRiven ; @SilverishGoldNova I have a few questions for you my fellow debaters, and by the way, I love you guys and love reading your debates. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of it. Oh, and I apologize for my grade-school vocabulary, and thank God (the Only One True Infinite Creator), .. and the person who invented the spelling-checkerer!

    First, what Coveny said: It's a simply binary question. Do you believe in god(s), a creator, supreme spiritual being, etc? 

    if yes, you are an theist
    If no, you are an atheist

    Q. If there really, and truly was no God/gods to believe in, could you be an atheist?

    Careful how you answer!
    Of course you could, it's not about any of the thousands of gods actually existing or not, it's about what you do or don't believe. So if none of the gods do exist (extremely likely) you can still be;

    a) A theist, as long as you're with belief in one or more of those gods
    or
    b) An atheist, as long as you're without belief in all of those gods


    Hey @JoePineapples .. I understand what you are saying, and this is what's been taught us for centuries, it is how they taught you in school (I luckily missed that part, ;.. well sort of) but what I am saying you can only understand if you block out what we've been taught aka programmed to understand.

    I know what is meant by "I don't believe in Santa Claus, or the Tooth fairy, or Peter Pan", but does it really make sense?

    If I was to ask you: "Why don't you believe Santa Claus, or Peter Pan exists?" What would your answer be?

    MK-Ultra AKA Religious Indoctrination has done its job, and it worked.
    It is most evident upon entering High School, there is a growing list of things/subjects kids would laugh at us if we said "we believe" in them, and some of these are:
    Believing in Santa Claus, .. believing that he exists. Believing in Tooth Fairies, in Peter Pan (I used that because the whole story about Peter Pan is "belief"), and so on, so if by 9th grade anyone says they believe in them, they are laughed at and made fun of.

    And as time went by without any opposition, more were added to this list, like; "if you believe in God or gods, or in a Flat Earth, or Creation like in I.D., or that I believe that Michael Obama and Serena Williams and his brother Venus are men, (Hmm, .. makes you wonder about the song by Aerosmith: " looks like a lady", ..  even has Venus in it:

    Cruised into a bar on the shore
    Her picture graced the grime on the door
    She's a long lost love at first bite
    Baby, maybe you're wrong
    But you know it's all right, that's right
    Back stage we're having the time
    Of our lives until somebody says
    Forgive me if I seem out of line
    Then she whipped out a gun
    And tried to blow me away

    looks like a lady
    looks like a lady
    looks like a lady
    looks like a lady

    So never judge a book by its cover
    Or who you gonna love by your lover
    Love put me wise to her love in disguise
    She had the body of a Venus
    Lord, imagine my surprise
    looks like a lady, ..

    or in silly things like conspiracies by our world Leaders, .. and so on, where these are immediately 'laughed at' and even ridiculed! All MK-Ultra!



    Why do MK-Ultra'd people laugh?
    Because they were made to believe that these things don't even exist.
    They read the book on Peter Pan, put it down and "Pooof!" he no longer exists. "Peter Pan, .. what's a Peter Pan? I never heard of Peter Pan until you mentioned it, it didn't exist until now!" At least that would be a wake-up call response, .. but instead, even if I were to buy Coveny a god like Lord Shiva and sent it to him, he would deny its existence. This is what atheists do. They keep saying:

    "It doesn't exist, .. al those things you shown me, none of them exists!!"

    Really, .. maybe if I was braindead or something!? Because far as I know, Santa, Peter Pan, all them theistic god/gods, .. they all exist, exactly as described by their individual stories. In these stories Peter Pan can fly, all he needs is a little 'pixy-dust', and all them theistic gods exist too, just as real as I was going to buy and send one to Coveny to turn him into a 'theist'. Especially if he believes that: "seeing is believing", .. I figured if he opened the box from UPS, and picked up one of these theistic gods he couldn't possibly claim "they don't exist".

    And look, .. we no longer even need Pixy-dust to fly!



  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. 

    No we don't believe there is no god, we just don't believe in any. So simple, it isn't a religion, because: religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, which we don't have. 

    No, atheism is the belief that there is no god.  Agnosticism is the uncertainty of whether or not a god or god exist.
    George_HorseSilverishGoldNova
  • JoePineapplesJoePineapples 138 Pts   -   edited September 2017

    Evidence said:

    Hey @JoePineapples .. I understand what you are saying, and this is what's been taught us for centuries, it is how they taught you in school (I luckily missed that part, ;.. well sort of) but what I am saying you can only understand if you block out what we've been taught aka programmed to understand.

    I know what is meant by "I don't believe in Santa Claus, or the Tooth fairy, or Peter Pan", but does it really make sense?

    If I was to ask you: "Why don't you believe Santa Claus, or Peter Pan exists?" What would your answer be?

    Santa Claus - I once believed, when I was a small child, but as I got older I witnessed evidence to the contrary and realised there was no reason to believe in such a far-fetched concept as Santa.

    Peter Pan - I knew he was a character in a book, I never held any belief that he really existed and never had any reason to believe that he really exists. This is the same for me with all the thousands of gods, from birth I never had any reason to believe in any of them so I just never developed such beliefs.
    I don't get a great deal of free time, for this reason there may be long periods between my posts.
    Please don't expect me to respond with insults and memes, I don't have time for it.
    Please don't expect me to respond to Gish-galloping, I don't have time for it.
  • JoePineapplesJoePineapples 138 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. 

    No we don't believe there is no god, we just don't believe in any. So simple, it isn't a religion, because: religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, which we don't have. 

    No, atheism is the belief that there is no god.  Agnosticism is the uncertainty of whether or not a god or god exist.
    Where is it that you get your definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic" ?

    Atheism is being without belief in any gods, being without theism, just like;
     -acephalic is being without a head
     -abiotic is without life
     -asexual is without sex
    I'm sure that's probably not the first time you've heard that explanation but that's what atheism literally means. Why somebody doesn't believe, is a different question. It might be that, like myself, they've never believed in any of the gods and just remained that way. They may hold the belief that there are no gods, but they're not required to hold this belief in order to be an atheist.

    While theism/atheism refers to a position of belief, gnosticism/agnosticism refers to a position of knowledge. Agnosticism does not exclude atheism (or theism), your position of what you think you do or don't know runs parallel alongside your position of what you do or don't believe, not in place of it.

    In America there does seem to be a strong misuse/misunderstanding of the word "agnostic", I suspect this may be due to an overall negative perception of atheism in the USA, with many atheists in the past identifying as "agnostic" to avoid persecution or alienation.
    CYDdharta
    I don't get a great deal of free time, for this reason there may be long periods between my posts.
    Please don't expect me to respond with insults and memes, I don't have time for it.
    Please don't expect me to respond to Gish-galloping, I don't have time for it.
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  

    Evidence said:

    Hey @JoePineapples .. I understand what you are saying, and this is what's been taught us for centuries, it is how they taught you in school (I luckily missed that part, ;.. well sort of) but what I am saying you can only understand if you block out what we've been taught aka programmed to understand.

    I know what is meant by "I don't believe in Santa Claus, or the Tooth fairy, or Peter Pan", but does it really make sense?

    If I was to ask you: "Why don't you believe Santa Claus, or Peter Pan exists?" What would your answer be?

    Santa Claus - I once believed, when I was a small child, but as I got older I witnessed evidence to the contrary and realised there was no reason to believe in such a far-fetched concept as Santa.

    Peter Pan - I knew he was a character in a book, I never held any belief that he really existed and never had any reason to believe that he really exists. This is the same for me with all the thousands of gods, from birth I never had any reason to believe in any of them so I just never developed such beliefs.
    @JoePineapples may I ask you why you believed in Santa as a small child? What made you think he exists?



    Peter Pan is no different than Santa, both are fictional characters in books, and if someone dresses up as Peter Pan (like in a play or something) that person is "playing Peter Pan", just as those guys at the Mall around Christmas time, even the adults will tell each other: "There is Santa!"
    I never heard any adult point to Santa and say: "There is don't exist"

    How can anyone talk about something that doesn't exist? They can't, and no one has ever talked about anyone, or anything that "doesn't exist".

    Santa is a fictional character just as Peter Pan is, just as all the Religion-created gods are, just like planets out there in an imaginary space-vacuum are. They are all 'real' characters in pictures and stories, taken within their proper context. Unless now you going to tell me: "Fairytale characters don't exist" too?

    Look, there are three men dressed as characters in the Mall; Batman, Superman and Santa Claus. Your young child walks up to Batman and says: "Look daddy, here is Santa Claus!" You would tell him: "No baby, that's not Santa, that's Batman." and you straightened your kid out. You wouldn't want him to grow up not knowing which character is which, right?

    So again, .. all the tens of thousands of gods exist, and you can buy them on eBay.

    But of course atheists can always "pretend, or make-believe" they don't exist, .. contrary to the facts.
    Erfisflat
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. 

    No we don't believe there is no god, we just don't believe in any. So simple, it isn't a religion, because: religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, which we don't have. 

    No, atheism is the belief that there is no god.  Agnosticism is the uncertainty of whether or not a god or god exist.
    Where is it that you get your definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic" ?

    Atheism is being without belief in any gods, being without theism, just like;
     -acephalic is being without a head
     -abiotic is without life
     -asexual is without sex
    I'm sure that's probably not the first time you've heard that explanation but that's what atheism literally means. Why somebody doesn't believe, is a different question. It might be that, like myself, they've never believed in any of the gods and just remained that way. They may hold the belief that there are no gods, but they're not required to hold this belief in order to be an atheist.

    While theism/atheism refers to a position of belief, gnosticism/agnosticism refers to a position of knowledge. Agnosticism does not exclude atheism (or theism), your position of what you think you do or don't know runs parallel alongside your position of what you do or don't believe, not in place of it.

    In America there does seem to be a strong misuse/misunderstanding of the word "agnostic", I suspect this may be due to an overall negative perception of atheism in the USA, with many atheists in the past identifying as "agnostic" to avoid persecution or alienation.


    Anything that can cause this much confusion can only come from the Devil, .. because our Creator God is not a God of confusion.

    This "agnostic theist/atheist" is like the Trinity Doctrine, or quantum-theory, confusing, meaningless and worthless, it says a lot, but explains nothing.
This Debate has been closed.

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