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Was Hitler innocent?
in History

By George_HorseGeorge_Horse 362 Pts edited September 2017
A lot of holocaust deniers like to say Hitler did nothing wrong and he was only protecting Germany and the European continent. Despite evidence of the holocaust occurring, why do they deny that it happened? 
                           

 



billpassedZombieguy1987cheesycheese
  1. Was Hitler innocent?

    29 votes
    1. Yes!
      10.34%
    2. Absolutely not!
      89.66%
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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  • Hitler was not innocent. He was responsible for the killing of about 6,000,000 Jews. There is factual eveidence that is still around which proves Hitler is not innocent and the Nazis are not either. Concentration camps such as Aushwitz are still standing today or a portion of them. Armies who liberated the Jews from camps saw what the Nazis have done.
    agsrGeorge_HorsePogueEmeryPearsonPolaris95Zombieguy1987MarcusTulliusCicero
  • @billpassed Thanks for your input! I was watching some WW2 documentary 9 months ago and I was harassed, called a "Jew-slave" and a "good goyim" for my statements. Bunch of crazy people and your post makes me feel much more happier!
    agsrMarcusTulliusCicero
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • Hitler is widely accepted as a terrible (if not the worst) human being in existence. Those who won't believe that are either ignorant of evidence, have huge hearts, or really like Hitler.
    George_HorseUnchartedSteppesPolaris95Zombieguy1987MarcusTulliusCicero
  • @PowerPikachu21 Maybe even cognitive dissonance!
    MarcusTulliusCicero
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • There is substantial amount of evidence for the holohoax. Due to an agreement to not offend anyone, I'll not discuss it any further.
    George_HorseBaconToesanonymousdebaterAmpersandSlanderIsNotDebate1995EmeryPearsonPolaris95Zombieguy1987MarcusTulliusCicero
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat While we both agree that 9/11 was a false flag operation, I cannot deny that the holocaust occurred. It is something I can never deny, history is history and it has happened, we are to learn from such mistakes and to never make them again. I'm sorry Erfisflat, but this is something we will both disagree on.
    Zombieguy1987
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • @George_Horse

    9/11 is history too, and as you might know, history is written by the victors. Pointing out that those victors lied about 9/11 is something they couldn't do about the holohoax. We can agree to disagree, but no claim should go dismissed without first examining the evidence, have you done so? Have you you looked at it with a critical eye?
    George_HorseBaconToesanonymousdebaterPogueEmeryPearsonZombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Hitler was a terrible person who killed millions of people as a tyrannical dictator, though nowadays he'd probably plead innocent on the grounds of insanity.
    CuriousGeorgeBaconToesPogueGeorge_HorseZombieguy1987
  • PoguePogue 532 Pts
    Hitler was not innocent! He was the cause of WW2, despite the treaty of Versailles. On top of that, he started the Holocust. 

    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193
    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007271
    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007273
    anonymousdebaterGeorge_HorseZombieguy1987
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • NopeNope 342 Pts
    Pogue
    i would not say Hitler was the cause of WW ll. Unlike after WW ll, WW l Germany was left to rebuild it self and was in a bad place to be in. Many people warn a war might start again. It is likely the war would have happened even without Hitler.
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-were-the-main-causes-of-world-war-ii.html

    Lets not forget Hitler was a dictator. To quote CGP "Take the throne to act and the throne acts upon you".
    Also I think Hitler was a very bad person.
    PogueanonymousdebaterZombieguy1987Evidence
  • PoguePogue 532 Pts
    @Nope
    Oh, you watch CGP Grey too. I know WW1 Germany was left in rubbish and then got it even more. However, Britain and France told Germany not invade Poland but he did it anyway. A war could have been prevented but the majority of the war was because of Germany. Some blame to the WW1 allies. 
    Nopeanonymousdebater
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @Nope Without Hitler ww2 likely would not have happened. Germany's economy was in ruins and its army was weak. The Nazis implemented a new economic plan for Germany and it was a success. Germany got out of the depression. But without Hitler, the Nazis would have never gotten power. 
    Pogue
  • Germany's economy was recovering by the end of 1932, Hitler was simply able to take credit for it. when he took power in 1933. Even the work creation program budgeted at 600 million Reichsmarks in 1933 was something he inherited from Schleicher, who had arranged it and put in place but not managed to spend anything before he was ousted.
    George_HorseZombieguy1987
  • According to most people (including myself), Hitler was a bad person. However, why is killing everybody of one race wrong (philosophically speaking...)?
  • Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • George_HorseZombieguy1987
  • Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @anonymousdebater Killing people in general is bad. Not only is it immoral, but if you want to get into the economics of it, do you know how much is invested in hospitals and to make sure babies are born safely??? How much is invested in clothing, time, school, etc throughout a person's life. A person lives and uses products made and distributed by thousands of other people who's efforts are ENTIRELY wasted should that human be killed for no gone reason, much more, an entire "race." Not sure why "race" is even involved as Judaism is just a religion and not much more. If it was a race, pretty sure people back in America wouldn't have called me a "good christian boy" which unknowingly to them, is false. 
    George_HorseZombieguy1987
  • In order to address this issue, more questions have to be asked:

    1) who is Adolf Hitler?
    2) what do you mean by "innocent"?
    3) what is Adolf Hitler innocent of? 
    _____________________________________________________

    1) Adolf Hitler is a German politician of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DSDAP) Nazi party

    2) in order for an individual to be declared innocent, he/she must be free from wrong

    3) Adolf Hitler is responsible for many things (not limited to the list below):

    - a failed attempt at overthrowing the regional government of Munich in a coup in 1923
    - publishing his autobiography: Mein Kampf in 1925
    - assuming the position of German chancellor in 1933
    - assuming the position of German fuhrer in 1934
    - defying the 1919 Treaty of Versailles 
    - defying the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact 
    - defying the 1899 Hague Declaration and 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare (both regarding the use of poisoned weapons)
    - defying the 1839 Treaty of London
    - invading Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakian provinces, Poland, Denmark, Norway, North Africa, Yugoslavia, Greece etc.
    - allowing his troops to collectively punish civilians and loot civilian property
    - orchestrating The Holocaust/Shoah between 1941 to 1945 
    - orchestrating Tiergartenstraße 4 (involuntary euthanasia of more than 70,000 people, majority of which had mental or physical impairments)
    - allowing concentration camps to operate overcrowded and rampant with starvation and disease (typhoid, dysentery etc.)
    - allowing the deployment of Zyklon B for the gassing of civilian women and children

    If your question means to ask if Adolf Hitler was innocent of the invasion of foreign territory, defying of peace treaties and genocide, then the answer would be that he wasn't innocent.
     


    EvidenceGeorge_HorseZombieguy1987
  • Hitler did nothing right, that's for sure.
    EmeryPearsonGeorge_HorseZombieguy1987
  • was he responsible for gassing 6,000,000 jews? 
    SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Consider why Germany, while fighting a war on two fronts, desperate for fuel and material of every sort, would bother to load millions of Jews on railroad cars, and transport them hundreds, or even thousands of miles to prison, er,  "concentration camps" built especially to house, feed, clothed, even tattooed so that they could be inventoried... just to kill them.

    it is completely illogical. If Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, he would have done it the same way that Russian Jews had been doing it to millions (20-80 million, depending on who you ask) of white Christians for the past 30 years at the time. A cheap bullet to the base of the skull, wherever they were found.
    EmeryPearsonZombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • when even questioning the history of this event, any mentioning of the Jew in any sort of negative light is hate speech, and is illegal in some countries. why?
    EmeryPearsonZombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • AmpersandAmpersand 471 Pts
    edited February 25
    Erfisflat said:
    Consider why Germany, while fighting a war on two fronts, desperate for fuel and material of every sort, would bother to load millions of Jews on railroad cars, and transport them hundreds, or even thousands of miles to prison, er,  "concentration camps" built especially to house, feed, clothed, even tattooed so that they could be inventoried... just to kill them.

    it is completely illogical. If Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, he would have done it the same way that Russian Jews had been doing it to millions (20-80 million, depending on who you ask) of white Christians for the past 30 years at the time. A cheap bullet to the base of the skull, wherever they were found.
    Hitler was a hateful at least somewhat in case conspiracy theorist who viewed the Jews as an existential threat to Germany and hence from his point of view killing them helped Germany. You'll also note that the Jews were used for Slave labour at the concentration camps, dying slowly but contributing to help Germany's war effort.

    Trying to frame this as Hitler helping or being nice to the Jews is sickening and you are an idiot. Stick to topics like there flat earth where when you make these kind of claims we can just laugh at you in peace because your insane beliefs don't effect anyone but you.
    EvidenceZombieguy1987
  • @Ampersand you don't defeat the troll by proving it wrong, you defeat the troll by letting it talk nonsense and paying it no attention in return.
    Zombieguy1987cheesycheese
  • Did someone really just use the phrase “The Jew”.



    Zombieguy1987MarcusTulliusCiceroGeorge_Horse
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 735 Pts
    A small minority of professional historians argue that the crimes of the Nazi regime were not caused by Hitler himself and his policies (indeed, Hitler was reasonably careful in what and how he said, and he rarely resorted to open militarist and racist rhetoric), but, rather, by the Nazi establishment that hijacked Hitler's ideas and twisted them to serve its expansionist goals.

    Given, however, how much influence over the population Hitler had (and that influence, in turn, has been properly and extensively documented), it does not seem plausible that he would be merely a condemned passive observer of the crimes he did not approve of. Especially since not only did he not publicly condemn or deny those crimes, but he even made regular victorious speeches about Germany evolving in the right direction. So, as much as this argument is curious, I do not think it is very self-consistent.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @George_Horse I'm surprised people forget how Mao and Stalin killed more people than him. Mao murdered 76 million people in the Great Chinese Famine and Stalin killed roughly 20 million with Gulags and other means when Hitler only killed 11 million with the holocaust. Winston Churchill killed 10 million in the Bengal Famine when he starved Indians in the British Raj by diverting their crops to fighting the Axis. Hitler was only thought of as evil because he sought to kill ethnic groups, religions and ideologies which is why he is a lot easier to criticize.
    EvidencecheesycheeseMarcusTulliusCicero
  • edited June 21
    @someone234 it's supposed to be "The JUDE" not the JEW. 
    Evidence
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    A small minority of professional historians argue that the crimes of the Nazi regime were not caused by Hitler himself and his policies (indeed, Hitler was reasonably careful in what and how he said, and he rarely resorted to open militarist and racist rhetoric), but, rather, by the Nazi establishment that hijacked Hitler's ideas and twisted them to serve its expansionist goals.

    Given, however, how much influence over the population Hitler had (and that influence, in turn, has been properly and extensively documented), it does not seem plausible that he would be merely a condemned passive observer of the crimes he did not approve of. Especially since not only did he not publicly condemn or deny those crimes, but he even made regular victorious speeches about Germany evolving in the right direction. So, as much as this argument is curious, I do not think it is very self-consistent.
    Sorry for the late response, but this is an interesting point. What if Hitler knew nothing about millions of Jews being gassed? What if it didn't really happen like that? What if the videos we were forced to sit through was of a prison camp cut off from supplies by the Allies,  and weren't gassed, but starved to death and lyme disease ridden?



    piloteer
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    MayCaesar said:
    A small minority of professional historians argue that the crimes of the Nazi regime were not caused by Hitler himself and his policies (indeed, Hitler was reasonably careful in what and how he said, and he rarely resorted to open militarist and racist rhetoric), but, rather, by the Nazi establishment that hijacked Hitler's ideas and twisted them to serve its expansionist goals.

    Given, however, how much influence over the population Hitler had (and that influence, in turn, has been properly and extensively documented), it does not seem plausible that he would be merely a condemned passive observer of the crimes he did not approve of. Especially since not only did he not publicly condemn or deny those crimes, but he even made regular victorious speeches about Germany evolving in the right direction. So, as much as this argument is curious, I do not think it is very self-consistent.
    Sorry for the late response, but this is an interesting point. What if Hitler knew nothing about millions of Jews being gassed? What if it didn't really happen like that? What if the videos we were forced to sit through was of a prison camp cut off from supplies by the Allies,  and weren't gassed, but starved to death and lyme disease ridden?




    I agree with you buddy, what if? I mean after what we've learned just in the past 3-4 years is enough for anyone to question any part of history going back to Christ's ascension, or the past 2,000 years.
    So how about we step back a little and try to get a wider perspective, please look at the following two videos, 



    Noticed the Jewish (so called) Star of David (more like a pentagram) and the Nazi swastika used in conjunction!? Now for the sake of argument let's look at this next video:



    And look at the above video through the glasses of this next video:



    What I see after looking at these videos, along with what I seen and heard throughout my life growing up a Hungarian, in former Yugoslavia with Serbians, Croatians, Germans living right on the former Austro-Hungarian border is that it's not about whether Hitler was innocent or not, but what really happened?
    IMHO, as I said from what I heard from friends and family who were from both sides of the War, is that this war opened up long suppressed hatred passed down through the generations, and all sides used this War to take vengeance on each other.
    piloteer
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts

    Amos 5:
    25 “Did you offer Me sacrifices and offerings
    In the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
    26 You also carried Sikkuth your king
    And Chiun, your idols,
    The star of your gods,

    Image result for pic of satanic pentagram and swastika

    Which you made for yourselves.
    27 Therefore I will send you into captivity beyond Damascus,”
    Says the Lord, whose name is the God of hosts.




    Image result for pic of satanic pentagram and swastika

    Image result for pic of satanic S and swastika
    Image result for pic of satanic S and swastika

    Satanic "S" - Represents a lightning bolt that means "Destroyer". 
    In mythology, It  was the weapon of Zeus. 
    Worn to have power over others.
    Also was worn  by the feared SS of Nazi Germany.

    What was the relation of the two? Who really orchestrated this Jewish Holocaust of WWII that included 64 million dead of all nations and just about leveled Germany and England!?

    I believe WWII  was a One World sacrifice of 70 million people to the god of this world. And that was just the beginning, the godless Religion called Communism came next;

    Although any attempt to estimate a total number of victims of communism depends greatly on definition,[36] several attempt to compile on previously published data have been made.

    • In his introduction to the Black Book of Communism (1999), Stéphane Courtois gives a "rough approximation, based on unofficial estimates" approaching 100 million killed. In his foreword to the book, Martin Malia notes "a grand total of victims variously estimated by contributors to the volume at between 85 million and 100 million."

    And that too was just the beginning of sorrows, .. only birth pangs really, one bullet at a time. But man is ready to give birth to the ultimate sacrifice, here is one example:



    Time is short, got to hurry and give the master of this world not just millions at a time, but billions of men, women and children in sacrifice, cause he, and his minions know their time is at hand! And to achieve this, takes thousands, even tens of thousands of Hitler's. And I've seen some of them, they kill with a smile.
    ErfisflatMarcusTulliusCiceropiloteerGeorge_Horse
  • Polaris95Polaris95 93 Pts
  • Polaris95Polaris95 93 Pts
    @UnchartedSteppes
    Well, we have Stalin to thank for ending WW2 in the first place, and thereby saving millions of lives. Without Stalin, Hitler would have most probably won the war. And Churchill also contributed to defeating the Germans. While I am not saying they were innocent, they at least did some right (unlike Hitler).
    Zombieguy1987
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 735 Pts
    Polaris95 said:
    @UnchartedSteppes
    Well, we have Stalin to thank for ending WW2 in the first place, and thereby saving millions of lives. Without Stalin, Hitler would have most probably won the war. And Churchill also contributed to defeating the Germans. While I am not saying they were innocent, they at least did some right (unlike Hitler).
    Hitler rose Germany from ashes, making it one of the most powerful and economically successful nations in the world within merely a handful of years. And his investment in science and technology leapfrogged the technological base of the leading countries by decades forward. One could even argue that the economical success of West Germany and, later, united Germany is partially based on the foundation Hitler's economical policies built (however politically inconvenient it would be to officially acknowledge this).

    Pretty much every leader in the history of Earth did "some right". In case of leaders such as Hitler, Stalin or Mao, this "some right" is simply too small to reasonably compare to the amount of wrong they have done. However, let us be fair in our judgment: Hitler was not a pure evil in the flesh, he was just a deranged talented ruler who had some good points, but overall delivered hell on Earth.
    Polaris95Zombieguy1987
  • @Polaris95 Is that objectively a good thing considering Stalin killed many times more people than Hitler? Hitler never starved his own people or crippled his industry. Instead, he turned a bankrupt nation the size of Texas into a global superpower, industrialized it and preserved heritage we still see in museums today. WWII was inevitable no matter who started it, all former allied nations already felt hate and suspicion towards Germany for fighting against them in WWI and the Franco-Prussian war. As William Shirer states in "Rise and fall of the third Reich", Prussia was the freak of Europe, its militarism and barren landscape making it stick out among the rest of the European powers, constantly shifting their balance of power. The only way the victors could've been content was if Germany was utterly and totally destroyed. If Germany had attempted any progress at all, any attempts at modernizing, expanding and industrializing the other powers would've taken notice. The only way WWII could've been prevented was if Germany was kept as a desolate backwater. When Hitler took power, he was surrounded by enemies on all sides, even Mussolini was reluctant to help him (he was even hostile to him, befriending the French early on and nearly stopping the Anschluss), the Austrians were fearful, the Poles knew he was planning to attack and put great effort into fortifying their borders. He took what was, at this point a shithole and transformed it into the finest military machine in the world. Even when the entire world ceased trading with Germany, he used his diplomatic wizardry to make more trade deals and keep Germany alive. So Hitler was, by all means a good leader, if not great.
    Zombieguy1987Polaris95piloteer
  • @MarcusTulliusCicero ;

    It is a common saying among historians that, should Hitler have retired in 1938, he would be nowadays regarded as one of the greatest statesmen in the human history. While I do not think it correct (after all, all the nationalistic speeches and the events leading to the Holocaust had already occurred by that point), there is no denying that Germany would not have turned from "European Zimbabwe" into one of the leading nations on Earth in 5 years without Hitler.

    Given how little regard he had to human rights (to put it lightly), and that in the end his "good leadership" ended with Germany in ruins and half of it in the hands of communists, however - I am inclined to see him in a very negative light. "Good leaders" do not turn their countries into graveyards. 

    If Hitler did everything the way he did, but without the nationalist and imperialist component of it all - then I would agree with your judgment. Otherwise, no. Hitler was no German Lee Quan Yew, despite some parallels.
    Polaris95
  • Erfisflat said:
    There is substantial amount of evidence for the holohoax. Due to an agreement to not offend anyone, I'll not discuss it any further.
    Image result for excuse me wtf
    When @Erfisflat thinks he couldn't dig a hole any deeper, but manages to do just that like the fool he is
    Polaris95piloteerGeorge_Horse
  • @MayCaesar Though hitler did have a role in them, he was by no means the cause of the holocaust, By the end of the first few years of the war, Germany was running out of manpower yet still needed labor to power the synthetic plants to manufacture the iron and rubber that was so vital to the German war machine. It was obvious the regular workforce wouldn't have been able to run all of them with all the men off fighting so he had to resort to some form of slave labour. POWs and political prisoners worked there but there simply wasn't enough of them to run it. If he allowed his armies to get undersupplied and overrun, his nation's culture and legacy would've been undoubtedly ruined. Because of that he resorted to using ethnic minorities most people already hated to run the camps. It was a way to keep the populace hanging on during the war as well as a desperate need for resources. Personally, I'd much rather be working in a labour camp than fighting deep in the Russian winter surrounded by hordes of Soviet soldiers hungry for my blood. As for retiring in 1938, Germany was already getting picked apart by the allies before Hitler stepped in. During the golden era of the Weimar Republic, angered by Germany's growing independence, France and Belgium invaded the Ruhr, a key industrial area and forced the Germans there into slave labour. The war was inevitable and Germany had a choice to either go out with a bang or with a whimper, to see the rest of its livelihood spent as a European Venezuala, a backwards backwater like it was after Westphalia, or to defy the victorious nations and seek that tiny chance of redeeming itself and becoming a superpower, abandoning the purgatory it was stuck in. In that, Hitler was wholly justified
    piloteer
  • Yes because the man who killed six million Jews is innocent. Never mind the thousands of stories from survivors. The holocaust was very real. This man is very guilty.
    Polaris95Zombieguy1987cheesycheeseGeorge_HorseMarcusTulliusCicero
    Sovereignty for Kekistan
  • He sounds like Trump. I am not a liberal, but the paralells are striking.
    Zombieguy1987George_HorseMarcusTulliusCicerocheesycheese
  • I'm not sure where all this talk of hitler being a good statesman came about. "@MarcusTulliusCicero, I'm equally confused as to how you came up with the idea that hitler didn't cause the holocaust. Yes, even if hitler didn't rise to power WWII would have still occurred, John Maynard Keynes predicted that the day after the treaty of Versailles was signed, but I fail to see how that absolves hitler of any blame for WWII, or the holocaust. Even if it was the command of the naziis who hijacked his philosophy and implemented the criminal acts, (which I find no evidence to suggest that's true) it would mean that hitler was an incompetent leader of his own party. If that were the case, he's guilty by allowing his colleagues to commit acts of war, and genocide. As far as I'm concerned, that makes him quite guilty! But since all evidence points to hitler being competent at implementing war and genocide, he and his colleagues are all equally guilty. Either way, he doesn't even approach innocence. To even entertain that idea is shallow and shameful.

    Not gonna lie, I'm a little bewildered at how some people on this thread, even people I consider to be intellectually sound, could have come to the reasoning that before 1938, hitler was a good leader!?! Every Jew in Germany was stripped of their citizenship, their assets, their money, and all their belongings. All of that stuff was then turned over to the most supportive nazi population. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone enslaves huge portions of the population and steals everything they own, and hands that all over to the rest of society, isn't that just theft? I don't think we can really rack that up in the "win" column for hitler. What would have happened if hitlers quarry of free labor ran out? Every non-Jewish business owner was forced to support and help fund the war effort. Now, I'm no economist, but forcing businesses to support your agenda doesn't really come off as genius politics, it's sounds more like forceful politics. I don't consider that a success story for anyone involved!
    MarcusTulliusCicero
  • "@Erfisflat, I will take you to task and burry your nazi apologies with devastating efficiency. Try me, I dare you!
    Zombieguy1987
  • He sounds like Trump. I am not a liberal, but the paralells are striking.
    I would like for you to elaborate on how Trump and Hitler share similarities.
    Zombieguy1987MarcusTulliusCicero
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • @piloteer There was long-running anit-semtism in Germany and they were already discriminating against the Jews. Hitler was not the CAUSE of the troubles, he was simply the manifestation of it. When the war started, there inevitably would've been an ethnic/social group discriminated against no matter WHO was in power. The spartacists would've discriminated against the Junkers, the Kapp Puttschists would've discriminated against the balkans and liberals. And never did I ever say that Hitler is completely innocent. He was obviously the perpetrator of many war crimes. However, I was simply trying to show the fact that he was an efficient and capable leader. Being a great statesman? He took a dis unified, fragmentary nation who had a civil war once every few months and turned it into one with patriotism and citizens willing to die for their nation. Utilizing his diplomatic abilities, he passified an entire continent that was initially completely hostile towards him(all of these are stated in my first post, which you evidently didn't read) and manage to break treaties and conquer lands all without his sworn enemies lifting a finger. When the rest of the world ceased trading with him, driving his nation to the brink of starvation he managed to negotiate a treaty with a country whose ideology is fervently opposed to him. "stripping a huge chunk of the population of their rights"? LMFAO, by 1937, there were only about 220k Jews in Germany. Again, concentration camps against Jews never really got going until the war got going. In that case, I'd much rather be in the holocaust than fighting on the frontlines. Forcing businesses to support the war? Literally every single nation during the war forced businesses to help support the war effort by donating resources or providing aid. There's literally nothing special about that. You quite clearly have not read any of my posts in their entirety or read any form of literature on the war (I'd suggest starting with Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and Hitler by Ian Kershaw). Please become informed on a topic before coming on here and making yourself look like a retard.
    Zombieguy1987George_Horsepiloteer
  • Hitler was an Evolutionist, a Satanist deep into the occult, a REAL Christian (not some offshoot denomination), and yes, he did kill his own people those whom he found less than adequate (starting with the old, gays, beggars etc.) for Germanies future rule of planet-earth, but I believe that many today, especially Richard Dawkins along with Lawrence Krauss as his Himmler would be just as bad as Hitler was, if not far worse!?

    Hitler called the Jews rats, look what Dawkins calls all humans:



    Today the Germans rule US and the world, but who is leading them? It's not a Hitler because we don't see them worship a human-ruler like we seen before!?



    what we see is this:


    funded by this:
    Image result for nasa snake tongue


    and worshipped at this temple:
    Image result for cern demons



    and here is just some of their worship ceremonies:




    People, this time Satan has risen an army NOT for some human king or ruler, not for a Nation, but for human domination by extinction, and the whole world is in on it, driven like madmen to goals they can never attain, places they can never reach like Mars for instance, promises Satan can never fulfill, nor would he want to;
    Wake Up!

    Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Zombieguy1987George_HorseMarcusTulliusCicero
  • Erfisflat said:
    There is substantial amount of evidence for the holohoax. Due to an agreement to not offend anyone, I'll not discuss it any further.
    Image result for excuse me wtf
    When @Erfisflat thinks he couldn't dig a hole any deeper, but manages to do just that like the fool he is
    @Zombieguy1987 Why did you mark my last post here a "fallacy"? Please show me, I'm all ears!?
    @Erfisflat made a point regarding the 6,000,000 Jews how this same number was used by Jewish controlled media many years before the Holocaust, shouldn't we consider what he has to say, especially if he provided evidence regarding this same number?

    Now I do agree that to deny that millions of Jews were specifically targeted based on that info is wrong, but so is marking a post a 'fallacy' because I mentioned God, .. which was to point out a much "Bigger Picture" behind the Holocaust. I am amazed at those who would defend the Jewish Holocaust, but deny the existence of God, .. actually I am dumbfounded by it!?

    I pointed out some obvious facts regarding the O.P. where the finger is being pointed at one single man, specifically Hitler as if he was some evil god who single handedly orchestrated the Jewish Holocaust, when in fact anyone from the entire German population, from millions of Hungarians, Croats, and yes Poles, Russians, Americans and most of the Arab population would have gladly take his place. I made my opinion based on evidence that there is a much bigger picture that we should look at before we just point a finger at one puny man whose fragile body could end with something as simple as a slip and fall.

    Seriously, how can anyone deny that we are all being pulled down a rabbit hole into the depths of hell where we have allowed powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, where spiritual wickedness in high places take full control of our destiny? I mean what, .. you think it was the tectonic plate movements and Hitler's diet that orchestrated this whole war, and the wars before that? Or maybe your planetary alignments that influenced all this, and since you believe that the environment is the cause of our existence, then such influences like star alignments, full moon and so on must be in control??

    Thanx.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @MarcusTulliusCicero

    Hitler was very talented and effective at how he approached the state management in general - however, the direction of his approach was the issue. It is a bit like the case of Che Guevara: incredibly talented revolutionary and impeccable leader, tangled up with the wrong cause and a malicious ideology. Take Hitler's talents and passion and apply them to a great cause - and you get easily a worthy statesman that can take the most beaten up country and raise it from the dead... However, a cause one pursues does constitute an essential part of their profile, and it is unreasonable to take the instituted totalitarian system in Germany, the Holocaust, the world conquest and the related ambitions, and the ultimate failure of his actions, out of the picture and only evaluate him based on a short-term economical success.

    Your narrative of "It would all have happened anyway, with anyone in power", is truly bizarre. Was there anti-semitism in Germany before Hitler? Of course, it was one of the main reasons his support was so strong in the first place. Was there an organized ethnic cleansing, however? No. Would it have happened in any case? I fail to see a single reason for that. No, for it to happen, a very specific type of leader had to take charge.

    I believe Nazi Germany was a far better state than, say, Stalin's Soviet Union, or Hirohito's Japanese Empire. It, however, was still a harsh totalitarian state where any dissent was addressed quickly and with force. Where children at schools were brainwashed with pseudo-sciences in order to support the dominating ideology. Where soldiers were sent to their deaths just because the fuhrer wanted a bigger chunk of the map to be painted in German color. Where multiple ethnicities were systematically oppressed. 

    I suppose one could argue that Hitler's achievements overshadowed his failures, based on the individual preferences... But denying the existence of those failures in the first place does not seem fair.
    EvidenceMarcusTulliusCicero
  • piloteerpiloteer 98 Pts
    edited October 26
    I never claimed that hitler created the antisemitism that existed in Europe, nor did I claim that you said that. I claimed that hitler was the cause of the holocaust, and I'm claiming that you are ignorant for denying that fact! It's one thing to have discrimination, but it's quite another thing to institutionalize and form that discrimination into public policy. hitler and the rest of the nazi hierarchy were in total agreement when they instituted the Nuremberg laws! Furthermore, the reason there were only about 200k to 300k Jews in Germany in 1937 was because they began to leave Germany do to the Nuremberg laws. That total was a reduction from the census taken in 1933 that has the Jewish population hovering around 550k within Germany. I think what "@MarcusTulliusCicero is trying to do is undermine my assertion that the reason Germany's economy was so "successful" under hitler is because the nazis stole from the Jewish population to redistribute those assets to the most supportive nazi population. I do not back down from my assertion. The nazis stole from the Jewish population, they stole from the Polish population, the Gypsies, the communists, social democrats, homosexuals, and every privately owned German business. Leave us not forget, it wasn't the national capitalist party, it was the national socialists party. No matter how you slice it, redistribution of economic assets is theft!

    Another thing your trying to do is convince the good people of DI that the holocaust was inevitable. The nazis tried various different methods of killing on the mentally and physically disabled. Genocide with surgical like precision, and on such a large scale, was only able to be implemented by a government that was willing to experiment with effective and efficient murder. The government that did that was the nazi government, and the leader of that government was adolf hitler. I'm unconvinced that you can convince the people of DI that the holocaust was inevitable, they know better than that. 

    Lets not forget that Germany was still in debt to the allies for WWI. As far as letting a country who was delinquent on their debt, just march into other countries that didn't belong to them, shame on the rest of the world for not acting sooner, especially the US, to which they owed the largest debt. As soon as the nazis tried to get out of paying those debts, they should have been systematically destroyed. Trying to claim that hitler was some kind of diplomatic wizard is laughable. It wasn't hitlers genius, it was the allies stupidity. hitler himself stated in his own diary that if the allies had confronted Germany as they annexed the other German speaking countries, Germany would not have been able to successfully counter attack. Russia had a mutual interest in negotiating a treaty with Germany. They knew the Germans would eventually attack them, but the treaty with Germany bought Russia some time to rebuild their military. Again, not genius diplomacy on the part of hitler, more like disparity on the part of the Russians.

    Thank you for your opinion on whether you would have appreciated a death camp over fighting on the eastern front. We're all absolutely sure that you thought that opinion all the way through, and we greatly appreciate your incite on the matter!?!? I bet it wouldn't have been all that bad in Bergen Belsen, or Dachau. You could have had a nice dip in the pool just after your game of tennis with the comandante. Or you could let your opinion be addressed by reality. Sensible people who use reality based opinions, would not want to be in either situation, but if we were forced to choose, I'm pretty sure we would choose the likelihood of death on the eastern front, as opposed to the certainty of death at a death camp! I'm not sure that you understand that these camps were set up only to house the prisoners until they were able to be processed for extermination. Oh, and the time they had while waiting for death was absolute hell, because they were literally forced to work until they died! And many of their jobs was working on the process of killing the other prisoners. They were herding people into the gas chambers and removing the bodies from there and stripping their teeth of fillings and bringing them to the incinerators or pits to burn the bodies. I'd say it would be sad if you had to do this to people you knew, but who knows if they would have recognized the people they knew? And that's just it, unless you "@MarcusTulliusCicero, fought in the Soviet Union, or did a stint in Auschwitz, you wouldn't be able to have a valid opinion on which way you would prefer to die. 

    By the way, control of American companies was not seized by the government for the purpose of war, like what happened in Germany. Civilized countries don't do such things. The American government sold bonds to the American industries to fund the war. In 1937, unemployment in the US was somwhere around 25%. The prospect of getting people working, even if it was for a war, was very welcome for American businesses.

    Are you expecting us to believe that it was all smooth sailing for the Jews of Europe until 1939? Do you deny that the Jews and people of nonGerman blood were stripped of their citizenship because of the Nuremberg laws? Do you deny their houses and businesses weren't stolen from them and given to "pure" German people? I wouldn't be surprised if David Irving were to commend you on your ambition. Do you prefer the term "revisionist" or nazi apologist, or holocaust denier to describe yourself? 
    MarcusTulliusCicero
  • "@Evidence ;

     The reason that number has been used consistently is because of documented fact. If you have empirical evidence that's capable of convincing us that 6,000,000 Jews didn't die in the holocaust, then please, let us see. If not, perhaps you should just get back to your coloring book and leave the debating up to the big boys and girls. K :)
    Zombieguy1987cheesycheese
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