Transgenderism is bad

PyromanGaming

Sorry! I thought that the description I had to post for the debate was the actual argument. I'll just copy and paste my argument here.

Hello opponent and viewers! I disagree with the Transgenderism movement and that it's deplorable and unacceptable in society. The idea that gender is malleable is . Gender is your biological sex and I find it suspicious that it's changed in the past 20 years without any scientific evidence. The movement has destroyed all logic because now according to the Transgenderism reasoning I can now identify as 60, a moose, and a stop sign. And let's not mention how creepy it is. Now you have women going to the mens washroom and men going into the womens washroom. These are private areas that should only be used by the biological sex that is supposed to go into. At my school, which is a huge supporter of Transgenderism, I can guarantee you that if i were to walk into the womens washroom (I'm a biological male), girls would scream when they look at me and I would be suspended or at least sent to the office. This is just contradictory and incoherent. These people have a disorder known by the scientific name of "Gender dysphoria", which causes an extremely high suicide rate. This has nothing to do with their acceptance in society as their suicide rates are higher than the suicide rates of Jews in the holocaust, or black people under slavery. The only comparable statistics to the suicide rates of these people are people with psychiatric conditions. Why are we letting these suicidal people walk around town instead of getting these people help. It's like cheering someone on who has depression or cancer. It's not a good thing. These people need to get the help that they need instead of getting me involved in supporting them by using the proper pronouns. Up in Canada where I live you can get charged for hate speech just by using the wrong pronoun. And it's retarded. There have even been some instances of people being arrested for unintentionally using the wrong pronoun on others. And look at the "non-binary" people who we have to go out of our way to use the grammatically incorrect pronouns "they" and "them". The entire Transgenderism movement is and there is no good reason to support and accept it. I know that this is a controversial topic and I apologize if i offended anyone. I am open to anyone changing my mind, and good luck.

someone234

Foreword

In case my opponent remains unfamiliar with the format of what’s to come (they have already proven to do so) I want to ensure they don’t slip up in this unfair way again and that they plan their rounds including the effort per minute put into the work as strategically as they can for a good fight.

“Lincoln-Douglas Debate format -

The Lincoln-Douglas Debate format consists of prescribed rounds and is one vs one (two people Debate).

Rounds:

Affirmative Constructive - The Affirmative side posts a pre-written case.

Cross Examination (Affirmative) - The Negative side asks the Affirmative questions about the Affirmative case.

Negative Constructive (and first negative Rebuttal) - The Negative side (almost always) reads a pre-written case and (almost always) moves on to address the Affirmative side's case.

Cross Examination (Negative) - The Affirmative side asks the Negative side questions.

First Affirmative Rebuttal - The Affirmative side addresses both their opponent's case and their own. This post is considered by many debaters to be the most difficult.

The Negative Rebuttal - The Negative side addresses the arguments of the previous post and summarizes the round for the voter/s.

The Second Affirmative Rebuttal - The Affirmative side addresses the arguments of the previous post and summarizes the round for the voter/s.“

- Aarong, the man himself, over at https://www.debateisland.com/debatingtips

While Aarong says that Cross-Examination rounds are solely to ask questions, I disagree entirely. They are to poke holes in the enemy’s case whether that is via rhetorical questions or via raw decimation (and as you all know, my style is utter demolition).

I am the Negative side and shall refer to myself as Neg and my opponent as Aff for the remainder of this debate.

Good luck Aff.

What is the 'Affirmative' side really Affirming?

The first issue I find with Aff’s case is that they open as the Affirmative for the resolution and say their case is fundamentally disagreeing with the Transgender movement. This is a corrupt foundation on which to build an affirmative case due to the core concept of affirmation to be one of the following (or both at once):

1. The act of affirming is to publicly show your support for an opinion or idea.

2. The act of affirming is to state something as true.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/affirm

If your case is affirming the resolution and not fundamentally negating the negative side, you truly cannot base your case on fighting a movement but instead have to stand for something and support that while affirming many truths along the way.

At the core of Aff’s case lies consistent ranting against a movement they have dubbed the Transgender Movement and yet nowhere is support of anything else in place of this movement. In fact nowhere in the entire case presented is it ever explicitly pointed out what the Transgender Movement is ‘moving’ against meaning that Affirmative is ultimately defending some shadowy concept of sexual binary which is somehow to be assumed to be ultimately superior morally and logically to the alternative for no reason other than Aff’s personal emotional discontent with this so called ‘movement’.

Gender and Sex

The following statements are made by Aff:

• The idea that gender is malleable is .

• Gender is one’s biological sex.

• According to the Transgender Movement’s reasoning, one can now identify as 60, a moose, and a stop sign.

These three statements can be assumed to all be lies until Aff meets their burden of proof regarding them. I will supply zero proof here because this is not my constructive round.

Bathroom Shenanigans

The entire case by Aff never proves that this supposed Transgender Movement has caused males to walk into female bathrooms or the reverse.

I shall not provide anything constructive to counter it in this round as it’s purely cross-examination.

That is all for this round.

someone234

Before I begin this constructive case, I’d like to make a shoutout to all the trans people out there, no matter how homophobic or non-homophobic your family and friends have been it’s never ever an easy thing to work out. I’m a man who identifies as a man but I definitely am more emotional and bad at sports than most men and it got me teased the hell out of can called a lot worse than just ‘weak f****t’ in my childhood. Bullying is never acceptable and despite my aggressive nature as a person both on and off this site, I want you to know that I stand by you wholeheartedly and you are welcome to PM me if you are having any issues.

The resolution clearly states that ‘Transgenderism’ is bad. It does not state, in the slightest, that the political agenda of people who partially support the rights of those to whom identify as transgender relative to their biological sex and presumed gender is the bad thing. The key point here is that the LGBTQ movement and its agenda has only the T referring to transgenders and even then their political agenda regarding transgenders is not what Transgenderism itself is.[G1]

‘Transgenderism’ is not even a real term in psychological science just so people know. This term is not even real out of colloquial speak:

“Transgenderism is a somewhat dated word meaning "being transgender," which has been misappropriated by transphobic pundits and spoken about as though it were an ideology. This latter use is a shibboleth for members of the far right and trans-exclusionary radical feminists (if there is still any difference between the two).”

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=transgenderism

To be a transgender individual is not to support any agenda whatsoever but obviously yes, you’re blatantly going to be biased to support your own rights. That is not a bad thing, it would be bad if you were so self-loathing that you’d give up your right to enjoy life and feel happy as a citizen of a nation purely because of hate-fuelled bigotry founded on no less than baseless assertions like "You got a vagina so you MUST FEEL FEMININE!” that’s like saying “you got muscular abs so you must want to get punched in the stomach to put them to good use.” it’s assuming that possessing a physical trait necessitates that someone wants it for a particular reason.

“The term transgender refers to people whose sense of their own gender differs from what would be expected based on the sex characteristics with which they are born. A transgender person may identify as a woman despite having been born with male genitalia, for example, and some transgender people do not specifically identify as men or women.

A transgender person may have persistent feelings, beginning as early as childhood, of gender dysphoria—a disconnect between the person's primary and secondary sex traits and designated gender and the gender that person identifies with. While many children who experience such feelings do not go on to identify as transgender in adulthood, long-standing gender dysphoria is a common experience of adults who do identify as transgender.

Transgender people may ultimately transition physically and socially in ways they feel are congruent with their identity. This might include physical procedures (involving surgery or hormones), changes in the way one dresses or behaves, and new markers of identification (such as a different name or gender-related pronouns). A person may also identify as transgender without making such changes. Transsexual is an older term used by some to refer specifically to those who seek or have undertaken a medical intervention to change their bodies. (Distinct from transgender people, cross-dressers identify with the gender label they receive at birth but occasionally wear clothing associated with a different gender.)

In addition to the word transgender, a variety of subordinate terms have been adopted by transgender people to characterize their gender identities. These include trans man—meaning one who has transitioned to live as a man—trans woman, and nonbinary, which connotes a sense that one is not strictly a man or a woman. “

• https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/transgender

I don’t really understand how you are saying these people are sinister and bad because they want to use the washroom/bathroom that is for a gender they feel more like than the one they’re currently forced to use. I do, however ask you why you don’t support forcing all publically accessible washrooms/bathrooms to be unisex as then neither side has any reason to wage war with the other.

To you it may be to feel transgender and to them it may be that you think that they are . The feeling of something being , especially when directed towards a group of people, is not enough to win a debate and this is a debate.

Glossary - TEST:

[1] https://ok2bme.ca/resources/kids-teens/what-does-lgbtq-mean/ LGBTQ: People often use LGBTQ to mean all of the communities included in the “LGBTTTQQIAA”.

PyromanGaming

Firstly, I apologize for not knowing how this debate format works. I'm relatively new to this website and thought that it was a traditional formal debate. So I guess I'm supposed to ask questions.

- Why should we be forced to lie to ourselves and others about their subjective sense of who they are?
- We have no evidence that the gender surgery gender dysphoric people go through actually helps them. We are trying it now. Why do you think that these people will be happier or that their suicide rates will go down when they get the surgery?
- Why are we not even helping these people in the first place?
- How do their desires to change genders supersede the uncomfortability of others?

These are my questions.

PyromanGaming

So now I am going to rebut my opponent's case. Firstly, I clarified in the second sentence of my first speech that I am referring to the Transgenderism movement, a movement that promotes transgenders acting upon their desires.

I do not believe that people will automatically accept their bodies just because that is that way their bodies are. What I have a problem with however is that I am supposed to acknowledge them as something that they are not and lie to children about gender. Gender is not malleable, there has been no scientific evidence that has proven it to be, it's just a front to indoctrinate people in their ways.


Next, I would like to address why people who go to the opposite washroom are bad. There are 2 issues at play here:

1) The majority of people there are not comfortable with this choice. As a society we have standards. This is why we separated the washrooms into two different categories instead of one which would be much easier. The idea that a transgender's desire to go into the wrong washroom vastly exceeds the great uncomfortability of the majority is a lie.
2) It confuses children. Anyone who sees a transgender walk in their non biological washroom can tell if they are trans or not. Even children. Children have always been told that if you are a boy, you go to the mens washroom, and if you are a girl, you go to the womens washroom. By changing the rules you are putting a detriment on their learning.

I do not hate transgender people. I feel that they deserve the respect that they need. The opinions of other people in washrooms aside, these people are suicidal and need help. It has been shown that there is a depression element in their gender dysphoria that needs to be treated. I want to ask opposition one more question. If someone had cancer, would you help them get treatment? If so, than why would you not help a gender dysphoric person get the proper treatment?


Also one more thing. I made a typo in my last question for my previous argument. The word "supersede" should be replaced with "exceed".

someone234

Alright Mr. "I'm only saving them from suicide." I am going to school you right here to explain how you've been fallaciously brainwashed you to hate the movement that you call the Transgender Movement.

Tell me and everyone in the audience why you think being gender dysphoria is linked to suicidal thoughts? Do you think it's because they are so mentally ill that the delusion drives them to the point of insanity that they want to cease existing? You are going to learn a lesson right here right now:

The reason there is any link between gender dysphoria and suicidal thinking is because of the bullying they receive from people who can't stand them.[1][2][3]

"Transphobic bullying is bullying based on prejudice or negative attitudes, views or beliefs about trans people. Transphobic bullying affects young people who are trans but can also affect those questioning their gender identity as well as students who are not trans but do not conform to gender stereotypes.

For example

– students pestering a trans young person with questions about their gender such as 'are you a real boy?' or 'are you a boy, or are you a girl?' or asking invasive questions like 'do you wear knickers or boxers?' or 'what body parts do you have?'

– a girl being teased and called names referring to her as a boy or trans because she wears trousers or 'boys' clothes' – a boy who tells his friends that his dad is now his mum suffers other students laughing and repeatedly telling him 'that can't happen – your dad's a freak.'"

- BeyondBullying.com

"Almost half of trans school pupils in the UK have attempted suicide. Not “thought about”. Attempted. One in nine of those pupils has received death threats. Eight out of 10 young trans people have self-harmed. Research by Stonewall reveals what numerous studies in UK and US have documented for years – these children are at risk and need all the support they can get."
- Paris Lees, freelance journalist, campaigner and presenter and wrote this article for The Guardian.


"Nuttbrock and colleagues (2010) surveyed young transgender women in the New York City metropolitan area, and their findings indicated a direct connection with being victimized through bullying and serious depression. They also found a link between being bullied and feeling suicidal.

According to the United States Center for Disease Control (2014), compared to non-LGBT children, LGBT children who felt high levels of rejection were:

• About six times more likely to be seriously depressed
• More than eight times more likely to attempt suicide
• More than three times more likely to abuse illegal drugs
• More than three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior

Transgender youth also skip school to avoid encountering bullies. A recent study found that more than half of transgendered students skip school on a regular basis (Greytak, Kosciw, and Diaz 2009). These students are already at risk, and failing academically sets them up for a difficult adulthood. Schools should be safe places, and there is really no excuse for teachers and school administrators to be complacent when faced with these horrific statistics."
     "Studies after studies have demonstrated that bullying is a serious problem in the United States, and that LGBTQ youth are frequently the victims. Transgender children are especially at risk, and it has been proven that bullying can push them into depression and risky behaviors.

So far several states have passed laws that are meant to protect these victims, but there is still a lot of work to be done. Parents and teachers have to work together to create a safe environment at school so that all students can feel safe and achieve their academic potential."
- NoBullying.com

So you can stop that completely fallacious association between being extremely proud to be liberal and standing by my LGBTQ allies out there and encouraging suicide. I've literally talked people I know nothing about out of suicide online, you don't know what I've done and I don't do it for recognition so I will never tell a soul the secrets I've come to know. Don't come here telling me I support transgenders killing themselves, I want nothing less than that. I am an extremely eccentric person and loathe restricting people. I f***ing support incest if both are above the age of consent and bestiality if the animal isn't mistreated and it's proven to not spread anything dangerous from us to them or vice versa so before you come at me telling me about disgust and the 'disgust of bigots mattering more than the pain of being forced to be someone you're psychologically not' you can stop right there with this outrageous appeal to emotion. Your disgust doesn't matter. If it disgusts you, look away, they are not harming you by disgusting you, you are harming them by brutalising their personhood with your disgust because they are the ones who end up emotionally broken by being forced to keep their mouths shut and subconscious suppressed, you don't suffer by learning to be a decent person and tolerating that which you cannot understand.

PyromanGaming said:

- Why should we be forced to lie to ourselves and others about their subjective sense of who they are?

You don't need to lie to yourselves about your transphobia, you need to be completely open and honest about it with a therapist and get over it. They cannot get over being bullied and forced to pretend 24/7 to be someone they are not, it drives them insane.

PyromanGaming said:

- We have no evidence that the gender surgery gender dysphoric people go through actually helps them. We are trying it now. Why do you think that these people will be happier or that their suicide rates will go down when they get the surgery?

Transgenders have a spectrum, the extreme end is at the level of surgery you describe and that's like saying that there's no evidence that people should feel so ugly they need plastic surgery. Literally, it's called freedom of choice and it harms no one other than themselves at worst.

I never advocated the extreme end of transgender transition that you are describing, to me hormone therapy is just fine but unlike you I don't care that others do the surgery. It's their freedom and it genuinely harms no one other than themselves at worst and helps them feel liberated and gleeful at best.

I don't need to supply evidence of said happiness; you are demanding it for no reason.

PyromanGaming said:

- Why are we not even helping these people in the first place?

Oh my lord, do you think you are helping them? In this debate you haven't once explained how you are helping them. The only 'help' you said you were giving them is solving their suicidal thoughts but that is solved by tolerance of them as I undeniably have proven here so now you have absolutely no nonsensical association between letting transgender people transition and their suicide rates (there isn't one, the correlation is between the severity of rejection and bullying they receive and suicide rates).[2][3]

PyromanGaming said:

- How do their desires to change genders supersede the uncomfortability of others?

PyromanGaming said:

I made a typo in my last question for my previous argument. The word "supersede" should be replaced with "exceed".

This one is a core idea in liberalism that conservatives seem absent of comprehending:

Feeling intolerant towards someone's lifestyle and way of handling their own body, in this case specifically their masculinity, femininity or lack thereof (of either/both), is not relevant to law whatsoever because your rage and anxiety over their life choices are the mental disorders that needs treatment.

Do you not understand the simple idea that their choice to be transgender harms no one at all unless the people are so deficient in temper and anxiety that they simple cannot learn to tolerate it? Unlike a severe stench or a very bright light to a very sensitive person to that sense, them being transgender does not involuntarily disgust you, you choose to pay attention to their birth sex and you choose to have concern that they transitioned their gender from what you assume their birth sex has to be correlated with.

PyromanGaming said:

1) The majority of people there are not comfortable with this choice. As a society we have standards. This is why we separated the washrooms into two different categories instead of one which would be much easier. The idea that a transgender's desire to go into the wrong washroom vastly exceeds the great uncomfortability of the majority is a lie.

Is being in the majority on a matter of taste reason to outlaw something in itself? Isn't the whole point of debating to prove a majority wrong and/or a minority right and change the world through the power of words instead of mindless sheep-mentality?

In this entire debate you keep appealing to emotions or 'majority is right' and have committed so many logical fallacies that it would truly shock any professional debater. It doesn't matter that you don't understand it, it doesn't matter if the majority can't stand it. It matters if they are correct or incorrect in their oppression based on their intolerance. So far you've provided zero reasoning behind the intolerance in itself and raising any new point(s) in your second Rebuttal Round would be totally bad conduct as I would never get to retort it/them.

On top of that, the unisex solution is one that has not even been brought up to a majority yet and literally makes both sides able to agree to disagree.

PyromanGaming said:

2) It confuses children. Anyone who sees a transgender walk in their non biological washroom can tell if they are trans or not. Even children. Children have always been told that if you are a boy, you go to the men's washroom, and if you are a girl, you go to the women's washroom. By changing the rules you are putting a detriment on their learning.

Is this a Deja Vu moment?


The unisex solution is one that has not even been brought up to a majority yet and literally makes both sides able to agree to disagree.

PyromanGaming said:

I do not hate transgender people. I feel that they deserve the respect that they need.

PyromanGaming said:

The idea that gender is malleable is .

PyromanGaming said:

The movement has destroyed all logic because now according to the Transgenderism reasoning I can now identify as 60, a moose, and a stop sign. And let's not mention how creepy it is.

PyromanGaming said:

The entire Transgenderism movement is and there is no good reason to support and accept it.

Sources:
[1] http://www.beyondbullying.com/transphobic-bullying.html
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/trans-people-children-suicide-bullying-rightwing-media
[3] https://nobullying.com/transgender-bullying/

PyromanGaming

Hello! This is my rebuttal to my opponent's argument.

Firstly, I don't support bullying of any kind. I am not bullying someone by saying that their choices or ideas based on no factual evidence are , and if I have any discomfort looking at their choices. I believe that bullying of any kind should be stopped. My issue is that the transgender community has higher suicide rates than the rates of Jews in the Holocaust, and blacks in black slavery, both which have faced torture and discrimination so much worse than transgenders. Their suicide rates are only comparable to people with extreme psychiatric conditions such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

I'm not denying that bullying plays a factor, but the majority of the media the modern world is exposed to supports trans people. Like I said, these people need the help they can get as they are legitimately suicidal. I don't think they should be clapping for these people in need of help like spongebob in the spongebob movie.




What my opponent here is saying is that the suicide rates are directly correlated with how they're treated. I guess the concentration camps the Jews were sent to in the Holocaust were sunshine and rainbows.



This is clearly not the case if you look at least a tiny bit of Nazi history.

This is my last argument. Thank you!