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Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

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Should the United States make owning guns illegal?
  1. Live Poll

    ?

    23 votes
    1. Yes
      17.39%
    2. No
      82.61%
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  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    firstly only U.S. legal citizens should answer this since it's our constitution that would be affected and is otherwise none of your business.
    DrCerealWakeUpNow321Zombieguy1987cheesycheese
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • The United States of America already holds a United State that makes a trail of someone you know to be innocent of guilt a violation of crime. It obviously is not working by the political popularity of fire-arm legislation. There simply must not be a sufficient number of criminals as legislation must be written it include what was once simply a point of independent and make it a felony.

    Again this idea is tied to voter manipulation as well as the infringement of a United State of Independence.

  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    Yes of course , a steady 33,000 gun deaths a years and not counting accidents the figures are staggering but of course most of the citizens of the U S don’t see this as a problem as it’s a “ right “ to bear arms and surely that’s more important than the loss of so many lives 

    I live in a country where guns are not permitted to be carried by citizens how would the introduction of guns to a society like ours improve us as a society ?  Is the U S such a violent society that it’s citizens  only feel safe carrying a weapon ? 


    George_HorseNathaniel_BErfisflatZombieguy1987Alec
  • I'm not sure what you are wanting to debate based upon your statement.  Not trying to be ugly, but it's a very generic and vague question.  The whole gun ownership debate currently taking place in our country is very complex and multi-faceted. 

    Do you want to debate the 2nd Amendment?  Do you want to debate assault weapons?  High capacity magazines?  Mental health and what constitutes an unsafe individual? The murder rate in large urban cities versus small rural areas.   The killing of animals for sport? National defense?  This is only the tip of the iceberg like I say it's a multi-faceted complex issue.   

    My position is there is nothing wrong with current gun laws and it's not a gun problem we are facing...It is a human behavior problem.  

    Gun ownership IMO is a huge threat deterrent both foreign and domestic and helps preserve the Amercian freedoms so richly valued by many in and outside of our nation.  
    Agility_DudeApplesauceGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BErfisflatjespironZombieguy1987
  • with_all_humilitywith_all_humility 222 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    Joeseph said:
    Yes of course , a steady 33,000 gun deaths a years and not counting accidents the figures are staggering but of course most of the citizens of the U S don’t see this as a problem as it’s a “ right “ to bear arms and surely that’s more important than the loss of so many lives 

    I live in a country where guns are not permitted to be carried by citizens how would the introduction of guns to a society like ours improve us as a society ?  Is the U S such a violent society that it’s citizens  only feel safe carrying a weapon ? 


    Now you have to be honest with those numbers you are throwing around.  80% of those deaths are suicides, on average there are 11,000-13,000 murders by guns in any given year.  So, buy throwing out a number like 33,000 gun deaths is deceiving.  The debate over gun ownership is not suicides.  As for deaths from gun accidents only about 400-600 any given year, Negligible.  I believe to been reading from too many liberal news sites.   

    There were 37,461 motor vehicle deaths last year in the US, should we outlaw cars and other automobiles as well?  It is a right to own property and a car as well.

    What country do you live in Joeseph, if you want to compare apples to apples let us know what country you are referring to?  Usually, when you start comparing the US to other countries and their gun laws and mortality rates you are comparing apples to oranges. 

    I'm a US citizen, have a concealed carry permit, own several guns but don't feel the need to carry one.  My view is if I feel my life is in danger, I don't need to be there.  However, I do enjoy recreational shooting, hunting, and the option to defend myself if I deem is necessary.  
    ApplesauceGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BErfisflatZombieguy1987
  • Agility_DudeAgility_Dude 62 Pts   -  
    Michael Knowles made a speech at a college campus about the second amendment talking about how baseball bats and fists both kill more people per year in the USA than guns. should we start banning MLB and start chopping off people's fists?
    ApplesauceGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BAlecZombieguy1987
  • Michael Knowles made a speech at a college campus about the second amendment talking about how baseball bats and fists both kill more people per year in the USA than guns. should we start banning MLB and start chopping off people's fists?
    This is true, you can find the data on the FBI's criminal database site.  When you start looking at the number you find out there are many things more deadly than firearms.  

    Good point Agility!
    ApplesauceZombieguy1987Alec
  • The question is how do people insure independence as liberty without a common defense? Is the friar of a population just reason to create human sacrifice?

    So your government provides for your independence out of the kindness of their heart or are you paying for a service with money or credit?

    The first improvement is that the government itself is not carrying a legal burden of murder alone as it must hire soldiers not always in a code of military conduct of honor. A payed soldier is in basic principle a trained hired killer, and not a civilian of private opportunity holding a common defense for the general welfare of the nation to which they reside. The civilian is under no obligations of contract to provide service of lethal force.

    When push comes to shove you understand that taxation paid by you is going to go for a governing body to undertake a training, and hiring process of a killer, someone to do a job you do not want. This person is under extreme condition represent you in a killing as you are unwilling, or not allowed to defend a united independence.

    It is best to start at a united state of constitutional right, as the 2nd Amendment right is a change made on the United State of Constitutional representation of independence of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
    Of course not. How else should one protect himself from crime or danger? The law enforcement cannot be fast enough to respond to 911 calls, therefore it is in the hands of a person to protect themself, otherwise they may end up as a victim of murder or crime. I am a registered, responsible gun owner, I have to right to protect myself,  should my guns be confiscated? And why should they? Owning guns should not be Illegal, however, criminals owning guns should be illegal, depending on the severity of the crime they committed.
    with_all_humilityApplesauceNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility

    I will reply when I get some time 
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility

    You say ......Now you have to be honest with those numbers you are throwing around.  80% of those deaths are suicides, on average there are 11,000-13,000 murders by guns in any given year.  


    My reply .....so suicide by gun shouldn’t count as a gun death  ? 


    From BBC .....


    A 2016 study published in the American Journal of Public Health found there was a strong relationship between higher levels of gun ownership in a state and higher firearm suicide rates for both men and women.


    See that ? 



    You say .....


    So, buy throwing out a number like 33,000 gun deaths is deceiving.  The debate over gun ownership is not suicides........


    My reply .... I’m not debating gun ownership I’m saying guns should be illegal for the majority of citizens to carry , also I’m not “ throwing “ out a number I’m giving a total of gun deaths , BTW I did not include gun accidents yearly the figures are just as staggering 


    You say ......


    As for deaths from gun accidents only about 400-600 any given year, Negligible.  I believe to been reading from too many liberal news sites.   



    My reply ..... Wow , that’s a sneaky move by you as in “ deaths “ by gun accident why not mention actual accidents involving guns ? 


    It’s because the figures are staggering .....Wiki ....Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).


    That’s truly shocking , also the accusation by you of me reading from too many liberal news sites is not very mature commentary to be honest 




    You say ....


    There were 37,461 motor vehicle deaths last year in the US, should we outlaw cars and other automobiles as well?  It is a right to own property and a car as well.



    My reply .....


    What a fallacious argument , a car is used as a means of transport a gun is used as a weapon to kill do you see a difference between the two ? 


    You say ....


    What country do you live in Joeseph, if you want to compare apples to apples let us know what country you are referring to?  Usually, when you start comparing the US to other countries and their gun laws and mortality rates you are comparing apples to oranges. 



    My reply .....


    Where I live has no bearing on the veracity of my views regarding this issue , I take it by what you’ve just said that you see a necessity for the citizens of the U S to have the right to carry as your society is so dangerous one needs the means to protect oneself , maybe yous fear a “ tyrannical “ government takeover or prehaps foreign invasion as a nation yous have a lot of traditional bogeymen 



    You say ....



    I'm a US citizen, have a concealed carry permit, own several guns but don't feel the need to carry one.  My view is if I feel my life is in danger, I don't need to be there.  However, I do enjoy recreational shooting, hunting, and the option to defend myself if I deem is necessary.  



    My reply ..... How tragic , I’ve never felt my life in danger , if guns are such a great thing to have in a society do you think gun free societies should introduce them ? 






    About 40% of Americans say they own a gun or live in a household with one, according to a 2017 survey, and the rate of murder or manslaughter by firearm is the highest in the developed world. There were more than 11,000 deaths as a result of murder or manslaughter involving a firearm in 2016.

    Homicides are taken here to include murder and manslaughter. The FBI separates statistics for what it calls justifiable homicide, which includes the killing of a criminal by a police officer or private citizen in certain circumstances, which are not included.



    There were nearly twice as many suicides involving firearms in 2015 as there were murders involving guns, and the rate has been increasing in recent years. Suicide by firearm accounts for almost half of all suicides in the US, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    A 2016 study published in the American Journal of Public Health found there was a strong relationship between higher levels of gun ownership in a state and higher firearm suicide rates for both men and women.

    Attacks in US become deadlier

    The Las Vegas attack was the worst in recent US history - and five of the shootings with the highest number of casualties happened within the past 10 years.

    The Parkland, Florida, attack is the worst school shooting since Sandy Hook in 2012.

    Nathaniel_BErfisflatZombieguy1987
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    how do you propose to get the guns out of gang members and drug dealers hands?
    Your focus on suicide rates in relation to guns does nothing to address the mental illness of these people.  this is a common argument which leads me to believe you are fine that they wallow in such misery so long as they don't use a gun to kill themselves.  as long as they don't do that we can just ignore them, there's no one strongly advocating help for them compared to those who would use their illness for gun control purposes, pretty scumming thing to do imo.
    lest you forget
    killed at least 168 people, injured more than 680 others
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
    Nathaniel_B
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    In my country citizens do not have the right to carry guns yet gangs have them and guess who they kill ? Other gangsters of course a citizen is never shot or mugged by a gun carry thug over here .

    You think I enjoy watching suicidal people suffer ? Your implication seems to be let them all have guns so they can off themselves , and the you give about about a mass shooting by someone mentally ill .

    If guns were banned theses sorts of incidents would be no more , Australia sucessfully banned guns and the drop in deaths and accidents was staggering , also suicdes by guns dropped 80 per cent ............


     Gun Control: How Australia Stopped Mass Shootings | Fortune

    Gun Control: How Australia Stopped Mass Shootings | Fortune

    Nathaniel_B
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    Australia doesn't have constitutional rights nor the population, history, culture, demographics like the U.S. so apples and oranges.  There's no honest way to compare the 2.  Australia gave up some freedom for security, which they had no right to anyway.  The drop in deaths was not staggering in Australia LOL  Gun crime was already on the decline as is in the U.S. and the U.S. didn't use a ban.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/opinion/australias-gun-laws-america.html

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/australian-guns/
    While there is no doubt that firearms deaths in Australia have decreased substantially in the years since the implementation of the NFA, how much of that decrease is directly attributable to the NFA is still subject to debate. Much of that debate focuses on the fact that the gun death rate in Australia was already decreasing prior to the time the NFA was introduced:
    It’s also true that in both cases, the authors of studies cautioned that NFA-like plans wouldn’t necessarily achieve (and have not achieved) the same results in the United States, in large part because Australia’s geography makes it much easier to control the flow of arms into the country:

    the United States, the bulk of our violent crime is in very small pockets in large metropolitan areas.  Which the U.S. has many of, especially compared to other countries.

    Nathaniel_B
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Right then since you don’t like comparisons to gun free societies let’s concentrate on the U S ......for the second straight year in 2016, largely due to spikes in gun violence in major cities like Chicago, newly released data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found.

    In 2016, there were more than 38,000 gun-related deaths in the U.S. — 4,000 more than 2015, the new CDC report on preliminary mortality data shows. Most gun-related deaths — about two-thirds —in America are suicides, but an Associated Press analysis of FBI data shows there were about 11,000 gun-related homicides in 2016, up from 9,600 in 2015. The increase in gun-related deaths follows a nearly 15-year period of relative stasis.

    “The fact that we are seeing increases in the firearm-related deaths after a long period where it has been stable is concerning,” Bob Anderson, chief of mortality statistics 



    Also let’s look at the staggering figures for gun accidents in the U S Which is on average between 60 , 000 to 75,000 yearly do you not see a problem ? 

    Nathaniel_BAlec
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    I don't like dishonest and horrible inaccurate comparisons, yes that is true.

    The problem has been lack of mental health and address for people before they commit suicide, people don't only use a gun so I would rather treat and address the individual rather than the popular means.
    Things get better and worse, everything cycles, but over all it's going down hence graphs and trends vs comparing one year to the next.
    Why do you think there's so much violence in Chicago?  Even if you could magically make all the guns disappear it would still be a horribly violent place wouldn't it?  What's the cause do you think?

    Accidents you say, hhmm, people do not have a right to a car or driver's licence, but they do a gun, you want to travel down this road?

    From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.
    https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics

    From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.1 An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2

    so about 3900 total per year according to the cdc vs 495 via firearms

    https://www.poison.org/~/media/images/shared/stats-2016/2016-national/total-us-drug-deaths4.png?la=en
    According to the CDC, unintentional poisoning is the leading cause of injury death for all age groups.
    and it's going up, not down.
    I question the priorities of people who make arguments similar to the ones you did.
    Nathaniel_B
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals


  • My reply .....so suicide by gun shouldn’t count as a gun death? 

    • The big debate in America is the number of people committing mass shootings.  When a journalist makes an argument again gun ownership based on a mass shooting but throw out the number 33,000 death by guns per year.  That is conflating the issue and comparing apples to oranges.  The outcry is over wrongful deaths, ie murders.  Not suicides...people who what to kill themselves will not be stopped just because they don't have access to a gun.  That's my point.

    My reply... I’m not debating gun ownership I’m saying guns should be illegal for the majority of citizens to carry, also I’m not “ throwing “ out a number I’m giving a total of gun deaths, BTW I did not include gun accidents yearly the figures are just as staggering 

    • Again the debate in America is the number of people being murdered by other people with guns....thus the Left's move to ban weapons from all


    My reply ..... Wow, that’s a sneaky move by you as in “ deaths “ by gun accident why not mention actual accidents involving guns? 

    • No, not sneaky, just putting the focus where the debate is at...and that is deaths by others using guns

    It’s because the figures are staggering .....Wiki...Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).

    • And of the 33,636 deaths by firearm injury 80%+ was self-inflicted.  You can't stop self-inflicted injuries.  That's a poor debate tactic to justify taking guns from people

    That’s truly shocking, also the accusation by you of me reading from too many liberal news sites is not very mature commentary, to be honest

    • I apologize for inferring you're a liberal.  I will not do so again. 


    My reply .....

    What a fallacious argument, a car is used as a means of transport a gun is used as a weapon to kill do you see a difference between the two? 

    • No, you prove my point exactly, you are willing to accept 37,461 deaths a year so as to use and own transportation.  However, you will try to justify the taking of gun rights over the death of 33,000 (80% self-inflicted) individuals claiming that is an unacceptable number.
    • Logically how can you justify 37,000 deaths and not want to change transportation laws, but over 33,000 deaths you want to change the laws.  This is about bias and not saving lives


    My reply .....

    Where I live has no bearing on the veracity of my views regarding this issue , I take it by what you’ve just said that you see a necessity for the citizens of the US to have the right to carry as your society is so dangerous one needs the means to protect oneself , maybe yous fear a “ tyrannical “ government takeover or perhaps foreign invasion as a nation you have a lot of traditional bogeymen 

    • See that's a copout, you were comparing your country's laws on gun ownership with that of the US, when I ask where you live so that I can examine your laws to ensure we are comparing like situations you won't give up your country of origin.  
    • This is a common tactic by pro-gun control people to compare death rate amounts in other countries, however it often a fallacy because what one country considers a crime another does not.  Plus the way they track and what they track is often very different.  


    My reply ..... How tragic, I’ve never felt my life in danger, if guns are such a great thing to have in a society do you think gun free societies should introduce them? 

    • I'm not going to speak for what other country's customs and cultures are.  I'm just speaking to the custom and freedoms afforded to US citizens.  I make it a point not to compare two cultures, because they are never equal and there is a reason why a culture does something (usually)

    Attacks in the US become deadlier

    The Las Vegas attack was the worst in recent US history - and five of the shootings with the highest number of casualties happened within the past 10 years.

    The Parkland, Florida, the attack is the worst school shooting since Sandy Hook in 2012.

    • Vegas and Parkland are a mental health issue not a gun rights issue, and Parkland was a failure of law enforcement as well.  However, in modern culture, it is taboo to hold the individual accountable.  It's always the fault of an inanimate object.  
    • Even how tragic Vegas and Parkland were, it is nothing compared to the inner city crimes that take place and that no one wants to address...there is the true tragedy 
    Nathaniel_B
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce


    You say .....


    I don't like dishonest and horrible inaccurate comparisons, yes that is true.


    My reply ..... Nor do I , so how was I “dishonest “ how was I inaccurate?

     

    You say ......


    The problem has been lack of mental health and address for people before they commit suicide, people don't only use a gun so I would rather treat and address the individual rather than the popular means.


    My reply ..... I know what you would rather but I’d rather talk about gun deaths through suicide as that’s what the debate is all about as in should guns be legal 


    You say .....


    Things get better and worse, everything cycles, but over all it's going down hence graphs and trends vs comparing one year to the next......



    My reply .....It’s not going down it’s steadily rising as I’ve proven 



    You say .....


    Why do you think there's so much violence in Chicago?  Even if you could magically make all the guns disappear it would still be a horribly violent place wouldn't it?  What's the cause do you think?



    My reply ..... It might still be violent but gun deaths would plummet 



    You say .....Accidents you say, hhmm, people do not have a right to a car or driver's licence, but they do a gun, you want to travel down this road?



    My reply ..... People in the U S do not have a right to a car ??? Or a license ??? Really !




    You say ......


    From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths.

    https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics



    My reply ..... I mentioned injuries 60,000 to 75,000 yearly that’s massive 


    You say .....


    From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.1 An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2


    so about 3900 total per year according to the cdc vs 495 via firearms


    https://www.poison.org/~/media/images/shared/stats-2016/2016-national/total-us-drug-deaths4.png?la=en

    According to the CDC, unintentional poisoning is the leading cause of injury death for all age groups.

    and it's going up, not down.

    I question the priorities of people who make arguments similar to the ones you did.


    My reply....


    A swimming pool is not designed to kill , drugs are not designed to kill , a guns sole purpose is to kill . I question the priorities of people who shrug their shoulders at a steady 35,000 gun deaths and 70,000 gun injuries a year and say “ Hey but it’s our right to carry “

    Nathaniel_B
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility


      • You say .....The big debate in America is the number of people committing mass shootings.  When a journalist makes an argument again gun ownership based on a mass shooting but throw out the number 33,000 death by guns per year.  That is conflating the issue and comparing apples to oranges.  The outcry is over wrongful deaths, ie murders.  Not suicides...people who what to kill themselves will not be stopped just because they don't have access to a gun.  That's my point.
    • My reply ..... The title of the debate asks a specific question I’m addressing that question ,  gun deaths and injuries are staggering in the U S .

    Regarding your highly speculative comment regarding people will not be stopped if they font have access to a gun ? You base this assertion on what ? 


    Australia’s suicide rate by gun dropped 80 percent when they introduced



    You say .....

      • Again the debate in America is the number of people being murdered by other people with guns....thus the Left's move to ban weapons from all

    My reply ....... But this is a debate on D I that asks one specific question 



    • You say .....


      • No, not sneaky, just putting the focus where the debate is at...and that is deaths by others using guns


    My reply ..... Ah right accidents don’t matter or accidental deaths don’t matter ?  Maybe you need to focus on the debate title as you keep evading the issues 




    Why are you refusing to address these staggering figures?


    • It’s because the figures are staggering .....Wiki...Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).
      • And of the 33,636 deaths by firearm injury 80%+ was self-inflicted.  You can't stop self-inflicted injuries.  That's a poor debate tactic to justify taking guns from people



    You say.....


      • I apologize for inferring you're a liberal.  I will not do so again. 






    My reply ..... Again I will turn the other cheek as you’re being totally disingenuous as you full well know the way most in  the U S use this term .....You have a very unique way of tossing insults out sort of undercover isn’t it ? By all means feel free to do so but at least stand behind the insult instead of trying to make out your intent was not to insult 



    Liberal

    U.S. 

    Pejorative and dismissive term used by self titled patriots to collectively refer to all that is wrong with the world and any individual or group who does not agree with them. 

    Uses: 

    1). Euphemism: frequently applied in instances where the user would prefer to use more derogative racial, religious and class slurs but is afraid to reveal their true beliefs publicly. 

    2). Political: Applied to all opposing belief systems that do not priorly qualify for inclusion under the definition of pure evil. (See: Other Nations). 

    3). Religious: applied to groups or individuals that do not demonstratively subscribe to any or all of the holy trinity or Guns, Gold and God. (Refer: Godless Liberals). 

    4). Education: Applied to anyone who uses words such as demonstratively (Refer: Educated Liberal Elite). 

    5). Civil rights: Applied to anyone or organisation seeking to restrict the inalienable conservative right to discriminate against, deny liberty to or restrict personal freedoms of those they don’t like, disagree with or fear. (Hist: Afro Americans,


    You say ......


      • No, you prove my point exactly, you are willing to accept 37,461 deaths a year so as to use and own transportation.  However, you will try to justify the taking of gun rights over the death of 33,000 (80% self-inflicted) individuals claiming that is an unacceptable number.
      • Logically how can you justify 37,000 deaths and not want to change transportation laws, but over 33,000 deaths you want to change the laws.  This is about bias and not saving lives



    My reply......This proves you do not know what a fallacious argument is and you  totally ignore what I said  regards guns /cars why’s that ?


    A car is used to transport a gun is used to kill ,cars are designed for a practical harmless purpose which we more or less all desire, whereas guns are designed for a harmful purpose which at least one person/thing involved with any shooting does not desire. Cars are in a totally different ballpark and the amount of deaths caused by cars is completely irrelevant when discussing the issue 




    • You say ....


      • See that's a copout, you were comparing your country's laws on gun ownership with that of the US, when I ask where you live so that I can examine your laws to ensure we are comparing like situations you won't give up your country of origin.  



    My reply ..... Nonsense , please look at the title of the debate again maybe ? 



    You say .....

      • This is a common tactic by pro-gun control people to compare death rate amounts in other countries, however it often a fallacy because what one country considers a crime another does not.  Plus the way they track and what they track is often very different.  




    My reply ..... Nonsense , please look at the title of the debate again maybe ?



    • You say .....


      • I'm not going to speak for what other country's customs and cultures are.  I'm just speaking to the custom and freedoms afforded to US citizens.  I make it a point not to compare two cultures, because they are never equal and there is a reason why a culture does something (usually)
    • Attacks in the US become deadlier
      The Las Vegas attack was the worst in recent US history - and five of the shootings with the highest number of casualties happened within the past 10 years.
      The Parkland, Florida, the attack is the worst school shooting since Sandy Hook in 2012.
      • Vegas and Parkland are a mental health issue not a gun rights issue, and Parkland was a failure of law enforcement as well.  However, in modern culture, it is taboo to hold the individual accountable.  It's always the fault of an inanimate object.  
      • Even how tragic Vegas and Parkland were, it is nothing compared to the inner city crimes that take place and that no one wants to address...there is the true tragedy 




    My reply ..... Yes you live in a very dangerous society where you don’t feel safe unless you have a gun but once you have your “ customs “ and “ freedoms “ it’s all good I guess 

  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    I'm talking about anyone who insists in trying to compare Australia with the U.S. on this matter.  I think I've proven why it's dishonest and you have stopped trying to do it so....
    "The violent crime rate has risen, and the homicide rate has risen by more than 20 percent in just two years, really after 30 years of decline in violent crime." That is accurate, but it needs additional information. The murder rate spoke is driven by a small increase in cases, and still well below historical highs. Experts say the increasing murder rate may be the start of a trend, or could be a random increase before a return to historic lows.
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/dec/04/jeff-sessions/violent-crime-some-still-well-historical-highs/
    you have proven nothing, facts are facts
    Image result for graph of us murder rate by year
    " People in the U S do not have a right to a car ??? Or a license ??? Really !"    YES REALLY!!!!!!!  it's not in the constitution!!!!  look it up a licence is a privilege, can't believe you don't know that sheesh.
    objects have no purpose they just are, people give them purpose, my guns are designed to shoot targets and not living things.  A car is transportation until a terrorist drives it into a crowd of people.
    there are plenty of ways people stupidly hurt themselves and or even die.  They are responsible for their own actions.  You would remove choice and have everyone in a gilded cage.  Living where you do you are essentially isolated and don't have a full knowledge of what freedom is and can be.  With that freedom comes certain risks.  The U.S. so far is not willing to give up freedom for perhaps a little more security.
    what do you think about this?
    https://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2017/04/30/68-of-us-murders-occur-in-5-of-its-counties
    “Sixty-nine percent of counties have no more than one murder, and about 20 percent of the population. These counties account for only 4 percent of all murders in the country.”

    Nathaniel_B
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility

    "The big debate in America is the number of people committing mass shootings.  When a journalist makes an argument again gun ownership based on a mass shooting but throw out the number 33,000 death by guns per year.  That is conflating the issue and comparing apples to oranges.  The outcry is over wrongful deaths, ie murders.  Not suicides...people who what to kill themselves will not be stopped just because they don't have access to a gun.  That's my point."

    if this wasn't true places like Chicago would have received more attention and help long ago.  The media and government don't care about individual murders or 70 in a weekend when it happens in the poor and mostly black area.  Sure they talk about it occasionally, but that's just to placate the lemmings.  It also helps with the agenda to ban guns.  If those high crime areas where addressed the rate would drop to such a low level to what it was, the problem would all be but negligible, which would be bad for them.
    Lower and lowering murder rates is a bad argument for gun bans.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • Okay we are basically walking through a script here and it appears to be established on an old story. The idea is Australia has no united State constitutional right, not that Australia does not know, or want to understand a United States Constitutional right. The Aussie’s doesn’t united by constitution only democracy. When a Nation struggles to take away a common defense to the general welfare of its citizen, what does that mean and what can that mean with the tool like the fire-arm? Taxpayers are paying a government to spend money for the training and hiring of killers to take on the burden of reaper of death, the group of people themselves do not wish to hold as liberty toward governing.  

    This is okay because the democracy liberties are placed over independence and the person can then blame the governing legislation for the crime. A crime the people have place on their Nation by setting a public goal. A Nation being a large number of people with a shared idea or principle, the goal of their own independence is set on the efforts of some-one else for action and consequence. What the group of registered voters, people, and Aussie say as a precedent of law, when we abusing democracy it is in the best interest of our safety. We will pay, we will order you to pay others to train to hurt and kill for us, but we do not want to assume that burden of cost for true liberty ourselves, or for others.

     The loss of common defense “Because of our possible nature of the crime we insist by democracy you legislate all people in this position as it will insure our safety, it will insure our happiness.”

    P.S. This is why the American United States Constitution is written as an Amendment to the Declaration of Independence

    Applesauce
  • @with_all_humility

    "The big debate in America is the number of people committing mass shootings.  When a journalist makes an argument again gun ownership based on a mass shooting but throw out the number 33,000 death by guns per year.  That is conflating the issue and comparing apples to oranges.  The outcry is over wrongful deaths, ie murders.  Not suicides...people who what to kill themselves will not be stopped just because they don't have access to a gun.  That's my point."

    if this wasn't true places like Chicago would have received more attention and help long ago.  The media and government don't care about individual murders or 70 in a weekend when it happens in the poor and mostly black area.  Sure they talk about it occasionally, but that's just to placate the lemmings.  It also helps with the agenda to ban guns.  If those high crime areas where addressed the rate would drop to such a low level to what it was, the problem would all be but negligible, which would be bad for them.
    Lower and lowering murder rates is a bad argument for gun bans.
    I agree the left has always been anti-gun, they exploit mass shootings (which are less than 3% of gun deaths if I recall correctly) to try and sway public opinion.  The issue with mass killings is not a gun issue it is a people or mental health issue.  

    I agree the media and liberal government don't care about the violence in Chicago.  It's a damn shame if you ask me!  Send in the National Guard and clear out the thugs.

    Appreciate your points and the whole agree that we should lower the lowering murder rates.  But not for gun control.
    Applesauce
  • Here's a chart that proves the more guns in circulation the lower the murder rates.  
    Applesauce


  • For those who think America has the most mass shootings.  Sorry, but NO!
    Alec
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    I wonder how the US statistics would compare to other countries if we removed the gang war shootings out of the equation (organized crime is a much bigger problem in the US than in most other First World countries, and banning guns obviously will not do anything to solve this problem). As it is, we compare Australia, where, aside from the odd mentally ill person or a warring non-assimilated recent arrival, nobody shot guns in the first place - to the US, where places like the outskirts of Detroit and Chicago are ridden with criminal groups waging almost an open warfare on each other. Of course the statistics will not be in the US favor under such circumstances... And obviously they will be many times worse in Israel in which the military has pretty much daily "cleaning" jobs. These numbers do not really reflect the danger the average citizen of these countries is in with regards to being hurt/killed with a gun.
    Agility_DudeApplesauce
  • with_all_humilitywith_all_humility 222 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    Comparing the US to Austraila is not an equal comparison.  One they've never had a mass shooting problem, so when they banned weapons their country had only had 4 public mass since 1980.  Note the page from their report on the effectiveness of their gun control efforts...Thier scientist concluded there was not enough data to determine if their weapons ban had an impact or not.  It's worth reading. especially since the media wants to pull its findings out of context.





    shooting since 1980.  Here is a page right from their report.  
    Applesauce
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce


    You say ......I'm talking about anyone who insists in trying to compare Australia with the U.S. on this matter.  I think I've proven why it's dishonest and you have stopped trying to do it so....


    My reply .....You’ve done no such a thing , you’ve made a claim you cannot back up and accuse me of dishonesty when in actual fact you’re the one being dishonest as in attempting to evade the obvious truths of the comparison .


    I stopped using the comparison as you never stop going on about it but have nothing to back your claims up except your opinion 

     

    You say......"The violent crime rate has risen, and the homicide rate has risen by more than 20 percent in just two years, really after 30 years of decline in violent crime." That is accurate, but it needs additional information. The murder rate spoke is driven by a small increase in cases, and still well below historical highs. Experts say the increasing murder rate may be the start of a trend, or could be a random increase before a return to historic lows.

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/dec/04/jeff-sessions/violent-crime-some-still-well-historical-highs/

    you have proven nothing, facts are facts



    My reply ...... You’re incorrect yet  again .......In 2016, there were more than 38,000 gun-related deaths in the U.S. — 4,000 more than 2015, the new CDC report on preliminary mortality data shows. Most gun-related deaths — about two-thirds —in America are suicides, but an Associated Press analysis of FBI data shows there were about 11,000 gun-related homicides in 2016, up from 9,600 in 2015. The increase in gun-related deaths follows a nearly 15-year period of relative stasis.

    “The fact that we are seeing increases in the firearm-related deaths after a long period where it has been stable is concerning,” Bob Anderson, chief of mortality statistics at the CDC’s Center for Health Statistics, told the New York Times. 


    I proved you wrong again after all facts are facts 



    You say ......YES REALLY!!!!!!!  it's not in the constitution!!!!  look it up a licence is a privilege, can't believe you don't know that sheesh.



    My reply ......Nonsense , you’re incorrect yet again let me help you, can’t believe you don’t know this sheesh 



     .....The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon in the ordinary course of life and business is a common right which he has under his right to enjoy life and liberty, to acquire and possess property, and to pursue happiness and safety. It includes the right in so doing to use the ordinary and usual conveyances of the day; and under the existing modes of travel includes the right to drive a horse-drawn carriage or wagon thereon, or to operate an automobile thereon, for the usual and ordinary purposes of life and business. It is not a mere privilege, like the privilege of moving a house in the street, operating a business stand in the street, or transporting persons or property for hire along the street, which a city may permit or prohibit at will.

    The exercise of such a common right the city may, under its police power, regulate in the interest of the public safety and welfare; but it may not arbitrarily or unreasonably prohibit or restrict it, nor may it permit one to exercise it and refuse to permit another of like qualifications, under like conditions and circumstances, to exercise it.

    The regulation of the exercise of the right to drive a private automobile on the streets of the city may be accomplished in part by the city by granting, refusing, and revoking, under rules of general application, permits to drive an automobile on its streets; but such permits may not be arbitrarily refused or revoked, or permitted to be held by some and refused to other of like qualifications, under like circumstances and



    If a society can be measured by how safe it keeps its kids, then America looks anything but great.



    You say .....


    objects have no purpose they just are, 



    My reply ......


    What utter nonsense , why bring “purpose “ into it ? 


    What is a spoon designed for ? A pencil ? A lawnmower?


    You say .....


    people give them purpose, 



    My reply ..... People buy particular objects to achieve certain objectives unless of course you buy a ladder to mow your lawn maybe ?


    You say .....


    my guns are designed to shoot targets and not living things.  



    My reply ......No they’re not your gun was designed by the manufacturer to kill otherwise it’s not a very good weapon is it ?




    You say.....


    A car is transportation until a terrorist drives it into a crowd of people.



    My reply .....


    It’s still transportation that’s being misused as a weapon , so going on U S logic a car is a weapon used by terrorists but a gun is not a weapon as it’s for target practice and maybe terrorists are “misusing “ it ......Oh dear 



    You say .....there are plenty of ways people stupidly hurt themselves and or even die.  They are responsible for their own actions.  You would remove choice and have everyone in a gilded cage



    My reply ..... Well I don’t live in a gilded cage and thankfully don’t live in such a violent society that I need to carry a gun , also I’m not afraid everyday my kids may die in a school shooting or accidental gun death , I like my “gilded cage “ 


    You say.......  Living where you do you are essentially isolated and don't have a full knowledge of what freedom is and can be.  With that freedom comes certain risks.  The U.S. so far is not willing to give up freedom for perhaps a little more security.

    what do you think about this?


    https://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2017/04/30/68-of-us-murders-occur-in-5-of-its-counties



    My reply.....Americans go on and on about freedoms as if no one else has them , most Americans do not know what real freedom is as in what securities have yous as a society ? I have free medical care  , free social welfare for life if needed , I paid nothing to get two top class degreees from one of the best universities in the world, I’m entitled as is every citizen to a state pension when I reach 65 with free bus /rail travel , free light / and gas and I could go on and on .


    I know for a fact the mountains of debt most Americans face paying for medical care , education, and providing a pension for old age , don’t talk to me about freedoms etc , etc , 




    If a society can be measured by how safe it keeps its kids, then America looks anything but great.



    Nearly 20 American children are shot in an average day.


    The United States has more child gun deaths than any other high-income nation.


    One in three gun-owning families keeps a loaded firearm in their house.


    Almost 40% of parents wrongly believe their kids don’t know where their guns are store


    Children are likely to play with a gun if they find one.


    Only 14 states have laws requiring adults to store guns so kids can’t get them.



    Each day, more than one child commits suicide with a gun.



    Every other day, a child kills or wounds another person in an accidental shooting 


    Kids are regularly shot in domestic violence incidents.





  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    gun related deaths =/= murder
    you can ignore the cites I gave why Australia isn't a fare comparison, that's you choice, but it's true, if you are honest research it yourself, you haven't provided any evidence as to why it is a fare comparison, because that doesn't exist.
    the right to travel has nothing to do with a license being a privilege, name one other right you need to take tests for (and pass) pay money for and can get before the age of 18?  You do not have a right to a car, if you have the means and ability you may purchase one, which can be seized by the government for........not have a license.
    Guns are designed to send a projectile of a given size at a given speed down the barrel and out the front, that is the purpose of a gun.  What you choose to do with it is the purpose you give the gun.  The competition guns in the Olympics, are those designed to kill?  Is that their purpose?  What is the purpose of a knife or a hammer, people kill with those right?
    guns are not designed to be used for murder, so just like you said it's being misused.
    you conflate "need" with "right to" or ability to, choose to.
    No other country has a constitution and bill of rights like the U.S. so no, no one else can understand unless they have lived it.
    And yes NO other country has the right to bear arms like the U.S., the right to free speech, there's probably more but there's not need for a laundry list, the fact is obviously and undeniable.
    much of what you list, describes ignorant and I would even say people who shouldn't have guns, but along with freedom comes the freedom to make bad choices
    Australia has a huge advantage being an island.  No other country has better border security than an island.

    So let's put the comparison to rest once and for all
    Australia-island
    Australia has an average population density of 3.3 persons per square kilometre of total land area, which makes it is one of the most sparsely populated countries in the world.
    here's the U.S. so you can compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population_density
    17 cities with 100k or more population
    here's the U.S. list, you can count them https://www.infoplease.com/us/us-cities/us-cities-population-over-100000
    we can get into population size and racial demographics but I don't think it's really necessary since just the physical difference alone are good enough
    but here take it from an Australian, pay careful attention to #6 if the U.S. can and should learn anything from Australia is this.

    with_all_humilityGeorge_HorseNathaniel_B
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce



    You say ....



    you can ignore the cites I gave why Australia isn't a fare comparison, that's you choice, but it's true, if you are honest research it yourself, you haven't provided any evidence as to why it is a fare comparison, because that doesn't exist.



    My reply ....I have supplied evidence your failure to acknowledge this is rather telling ......http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/



    You say .....


    the right to travel has nothing to do with a license being a privilege, name one other right you need to take tests for (and pass) pay money for and can get before the age of 18?  You do not have a right to a car, if you have the means and ability you may purchase one, which can be seized by the government for........not have a license.


    My reply ..... Nonsense , you claimed it wasn’t a right,  it is 



    You say .....


    Guns are designed to send a projectile of a given size at a given speed down the barrel and out the front, that is the purpose of a gun.  


    My reply ..... Incorrect a gun is a weapon who’s  function is to kill unless stated otherwise 


    You say .....


    What you choose to do with it is the purpose you give the gun. The competition guns in the Olympics, are those designed to kill?  



    My reply .... That’s because they are called started guns isn’t it ? 


    You say.....


    Is that their purpose?  What is the purpose of a knife or a hammer, people kill with those right?


    My reply ..... People buy a hammer to hammer nails mostly and a knife to cut food mostly , why in the U S do people buy a hammer or knife to kill and maybe a gun to hammer nails into a fence ......You Americans ......


    You say ....



    guns are not designed to be used for murder, so just like you said it's being misused.



    My reply .....I know they’re used to kill if you’re using one correctly 



    You say ....


    you conflate "need" with "right to" or ability to, choose to.

    No other country has a constitution and bill of rights like the U.S. so no, no one else can understand unless they have lived it.


    My reply .....


    You need to live in Europe for a while 


    You say .....


    And yes NO other country has the right to bear arms like the U.S., the right to free speech, there's probably more but there's not need for a laundry list, the fact is obviously and undeniable.


    My reply .....read above 


    You say ....


    much of what you list, describes ignorant and I would even say people who shouldn't have guns, but along with freedom comes the freedom to make bad choices



    My reply ..... sounds like jealousy to me on your part 


    You say .....


    Australia has a huge advantage being an island.  No other country has better border security than an island.



    My reply ..... Really ? 


    You say .....


    So let's put the comparison to rest once and for all

    Australia-island

    Australia has an average population density of 3.3 persons per square kilometre of total land area, which makes it is one of the most sparsely populated countries in the world.

    here's the U.S. so you can compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population_density

    17 cities with 100k or more population

    here's the U.S. list, you can count them https://www.infoplease.com/us/us-cities/us-cities-population-over-100000

    we can get into population size and racial demographics but I don't think it's really necessary since just the physical difference alone are good enough

    but here take it from an Australian, pay careful attention to #6 if the U.S. can and should learn anything from Australia is this.



    My reply ..... You keep saying you don’t want this comparison yet you keep going on about it , I’ve destroyed your claims with my article , I couldn’t watch that video it’s just a female airhead voicing her inane opinion and too much to bear 

  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Joeseph

    yeah don't watch the video lol but we should watch yours, you call her an airhead w/o watching?  You are but a blind sheep, choosing to ignore all the facts and evidence presented to you, you post no stats to refute what I have presented.  I've clearly shown why trying and compare Australia and the U.S. is deceitful and dishonest, you have shown no evidence to contradict this fact.  Your attempts to dodge are sad.  You bring up Australia and now you say I should try living in Europe LOL  Save your typing and provide some actual stats and facts, I'm not interested in biased opinions.
    I have addressed Australians violence and even their own law makers can't say for certain any of their bans actually did anything to curb the murder rate, it's anecdotal  evidence at best, there is NO statistical evidence to prove it did anything at all.
    Here I'll give you another chance, we'll start slow and one thing at a time.
    Explain how the island Nation of Australia doesn't have a huge advantage with regards to controlling it's borders compared to the U.S. who borders an almost lawless Mexico who also allows S. Americans to enter their country on their way to enter the U.S. illegally we can toss in the drug trade as well if you like.  I know Australia has their own problems but Australia is behind the U.S. in this ranking.
    Compare just the landmasses in question to show how they are more similar than different.  Or you can just admit that's not possible and we can move on.
    Unless you are finally willing to admit no fair comparison can really be made between Australia and the U.S. with regards to the issues discussed in this thread?
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Most of what you say is poorly worded nonsense,  your assertions were destroyed,  again l will post the link that destroys your simplistic John boy Walton American world view ........http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/ 

    Read that slowly at your leisure and maybe get back to me when you actually have an argument , why you’re going on about borders is beyond me and your obsession with Australia is worrying to say the least , thought you said you didn’t want a comparison ?
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce

    Most of what you say is poorly worded nonsense,  your assertions were destroyed,  again l will post the link that destroys your simplistic John boy Walton American world view ........http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/ 

    Read that slowly at your leisure and maybe get back to me when you actually have an argument , why you’re going on about borders is beyond me and your obsession with Australia is worrying to say the least , thought you said you didn’t want a comparison ?


    You bring up Australia with your links.

    My proof and your lack of rebuttal shows you have acquiesced to the fact that no honest and fair comparison can be made between Australia and the U.S.

    Therefore whatever Australia has done to address whatever crimes or issue it has is largely irrelevant to a topic about the U.S.

    Correct you can't compare the 2 therefore your link is irrelevant. 

    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce


    You say .......You bring up Australia with your links.


    My reply ....Yes , to correct your biased assertions 


    You say .....

    My proof and your lack of rebuttal shows you have acquiesced to the fact that no honest and fair comparison can be made between Australia and the U.S.


    My reply .......You offered no “proof “ as you have none my rebuttal destroyed your assertions and the comparison is totally fair .....get over it 


    You say ........

    Therefore whatever Australia has done to address whatever crimes or issue it has is largely irrelevant to a topic about the U.S.

    Correct you can't compare the 2 therefore your link is irrelevant. 



    My reply .....Nonsense , when you actually have an argument get back to me 



  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  

    @Joeseph

    there's nothing to get back to.  I've called you out, challenged you to address specific points and you have not done so.  If you can't prove comparing the 2 nations is fair, honest and appropriate everything you say about Australia can't be used towards the U.S. on this matter.  It is your claim and comparison that the U.S. should follow the example of Australia, it's your burden of proof to show why that comparison is honest, fair and appropriate.  Until you are able to do that, you are just blowing a lot of hot air.  Why do you expect anyone to just take your word for it?

    If you were correct you wouldn't have to ignored by many examples why it's not an honest comparison and it would be easy to refute them.  The burden is on you to back up your claims.  Tossing out irrelevant links doesn't do that.

    Your burden is to show it's a fair comparison.  Though statics will show it's not, hence your refusal to address those facts and logic.

    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce


    You say .....there's nothing to get back to.  


    My reply .....So you have no argument.....still 


    You say ......I've called you out, challenged you to address specific points and you have not done so.


    My reply ..... Incorrect what you actually mean is you’ve been found out and you don’t like it 


    You say ......  If you can't prove comparing the 2 nations is fair, honest and appropriate everything you say about Australia can't be used towards the U.S. on this matter......


    My reply ......Nonsense ......Australia had a gun problem the U S has a massive one maybe it’s about time you acknowledged this ?



    You say .....

    .  It is your claim and comparison that the U.S. should follow the example of Australia, it's your burden of proof to show why that comparison is honest, fair and appropriate. .....



    My reply ...... How’s it fair you wail ? Well why not read the massive changes since the ban came in it’s in my link which you still haven’t read 


    You say .....

     Until you are able to do that, you are just blowing a lot of hot air. 


    My reply .....You're the American here buddy yous are renowned worldwide for doing what  you accuse me off as in blowing hot air 


    You say ....

     Why do you expect anyone to just take your word for it?


    My reply ......I don’t youre American 30,000 gundeaths a year and 70,000 accidents are not important to Americans 


    You say ....

    If you were correct you wouldn't have to ignored by many examples why it's not an honest comparison and it would be easy to refute them.  The burden is on you to back up your claims.  Tossing out irrelevant links doesn't do that.


    My reply ......My links were excellent you had response to them except to call them “irrelevant “ I guess like the 30,000 gun  deaths and 70,000 accidents a year 


    You say .....

    Your burden is to show it's a fair comparison.  Though statics will show it's not, hence your refusal to address those facts and logic.


    My reply .....It’s more than fair , read the figures and weep .......Newslash you don’t do logic buddy 

  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  

    @Joeseph

    again you can't prove any valid comparisons.

    Australia never had a gun murder problem LOL

    buy back aka confenscation in 1996

    the number of homicides in Australia did increase slightly in 1997 and peaked in 1999, but has since declined (but look at the graph)

    2002 had more murders than 1996

    did it make this huge and drastic difference?

    2012  296 murders 1996  354  this is after confiscation  over 650000 fire arms and all the other additional laws.

     “no study has explained why gun deaths were falling, or why they might be expected to continue to fall.” That poses difficulty in trying to definitively determine the impact of the law, they write.

    the mean average between 1996 and 2013 data from link shows a mean average of 320/year with the low being in 2010 of 261

    https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

    Did the post–Port Arthur laws lead to a clear reduction of gun violence?

    firearm-related suicides had been declining in Australia for nearly ten years before the 1996 restrictions on gun ownership.

    a look at other developed countries with very strict gun-control laws (such as Japan and South Korea) shows that the lack of guns does not lead to a reduced suicide rate.

    University of Melbourne researchers Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi concluded their 2008 report on the matter with the statement, “There is little evidence to suggest that [the Australian mandatory gun-buyback program] had any significant effects on firearm homicides.”

     “Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?” by Jeanine Baker and Samara McPhedran similarly concluded that the buyback program did not have a significant long-term effect on the Australian homicide rate.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/australia-gun-control-obama-america/

    Data from the Australian Institute of Criminology shows the rate of homicide victims dying from a gunshot wound has dropped since the reforms came into force, but not consistently in every year.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/fact-check-gun-homicides-and-suicides-john-howard-port-arthur/7254880

    Professor Sarre said: "It is incontestable that gun-related homicides and suicides have fallen since 1996, what is contestable is how much you can attribute that to [the reforms]

    One of the studies reviewed, written by Dr McPhedran and Dr Baker, was published by the peer-reviewed British Journal of Criminology in 2006.

    "Homicide patterns (firearm and non-firearm) were not influenced by the NFA, the conclusion being that the gun buyback and restrictive legislative changes had no influence on firearm homicide in Australia."

    https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/22/australias-gun-buyback-created-a-violent

    More recently, the country's The New Daily gained access to "previously unpublished data for firearms offences" and reported a surge in crime "including a massive 83 per cent increase in firearms offences in NSW between 2005/06 and 2014/15, and an even bigger jump in Victoria over the same period."

    "Australians may be more at risk from gun crime than ever before with the country's underground market for firearms ballooning in the past decade," the report added. "[T]he national ban on semi-automatic weapons following the Port Arthur massacre had spawned criminal demand for handguns."

    Given that Australia also heavily invested in mental health, that further muddies the water when it comes to these stats.

    yes the stats and rates went down and they were prior to 1996, post 1996 there were much higher rates in given years.

    Correlation does not imply causation


    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • TheocratTheocrat 69 Pts   -  
    Given that all people have a God-given right to self-defense, no government has the authority to take that right away, either directly by punishing people to exercise that right or indirectly by taking away the means to exercise that right.  It is very simple stuff.
    Applesauce
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce

    Wow ! You’re still on about Australia I’ve put that argument to bed by providing real stats as opposed to your deeply biased stats.

    Lets look at some of the stats using American sources and see how truly shocking they are , but hey theres no gun problem is there ? 

    1.) It is estimated that 50 million Americans own over 200 million guns. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    2.) Over one-third of all homes contain guns, and despite continuing educational efforts, the majority of these guns are kept loaded, unlocked and potentially accessible to children. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    3.) Research indicates that if a gun is stored in a home, the risk of homicide increases threefold and the risk of suicide increases fivefold. Guns also are 43 times as likely to be used to kill a family member or someone known to a family than to kill a stranger. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    4.) Children and adolescents have easy access to guns. More than 5 percent of high school students indicated that they carried a gun in the past month, and it is estimated that approximately one million children bring guns to school each year. Many students who carry guns do so because they are afraid or influenced by peer pressure. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    5.) The United States has the highest rates of firearm-related deaths among industrialized countries, including homicide, suicide and unintentional deaths; young people are often the victims. Gun violence accounts for over 3,000 deaths and over 15,000 injuries each year among children and adolescents. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    6.) The rate of firearm-related homicides for U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 16 times greater than the rates in 25 other industrialized countries combined. – American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

    7.) There have been 62 mass shootings in the U.S. in the last 30 years. 139 guns were used, more than 75 percent obtained legally, including assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns. Of those 12 were school shootings, 19 workplace shootings, and 31 took place in malls, houses of worship, government buildings, military bases and other public spaces.  – MotherJones.com


    8.) Of the perpetrators of the mass shootings in the last 30 years, 43 of the killers were white males. Only one was a woman. The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was 11. – MotherJones.com

    9.) The majority of gun owners are white, Republican males.  – JustFacts.com

    10.) Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886, or 67 percent, were committed with firearms. – JustFacts.com

    11.) Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders. Of these, about 436,000, or 8 percent, were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun. – JustFacts.com

    12.) The Federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1995 states that people with guns cannot walk within 1,000 feet of any school (kindergarten to 12th grade). But on Thursday, one day before the Connecticut shooting, the Republican-controlled Michigan legislature passed a bill that would allow people to bring guns into schools. The bill now sits on Gov. Rick Snyder’s (R) desk, who must decide whether to approve or veto the legislation. – ThinkProgress.com

    13.) There are currently 88.8 firearms per 100 people in the United States. 68 percent of American gun owners have at least one handgun, while the percentage of Americans who own guns is decreasing (41 percent in 1994 to 36 percent in 2011). The jump in firearm possession is due to a rise in the average number of guns per gun owner, which rose from 4.1 in 1994 to an astonishing 6.9 in 2004. In other words, a shrinking group of Americans is stockpiling more and more weapons. – PolicyMic.com

    14.) In 2009 there were 34,500 motor vehicle deaths and 31,400 firearm deaths. Based on the currently lowered rate of vehicle death and increased rate of firearm death, “there may actually be, this year to come, more firearm deaths than motor vehicle deaths,” Mark Rosenberg, president and CEO of the Task Force for Global Health, told NPR in August.



  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  

    @Joeseph

    the number of firearms has increased though the murder rate has decreased.  Yes the U.S. has higher rates than other countries.  You have yet to provide any facts why banning guns would make any measurable effect.  The assault weapons ban had no effect.  And the Australian ban had no effect based on peer reviewed studies and official Australian stats.  Where exactly did you put that notion to bed with actual facts?  Opinion pieces are not facts compared to peer reviewed studies.  You have any of those studies to backup your claims?  Didn't think so.

    it would be interesting to compare non gun murder rates because I think it could show that the U.S. has a murder problem, rather than a gun problem.  Then perhaps banning knives and cutting instruments should be argued as well, if the real problem is the act of murder rather than the means.

    drug use deaths

    U.S  #5

    Australia #14

    http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/by-country/

     

    Personal conflicts biggest cause of murders in U.S.

    “The pattern that stands out the most is we see a lot of intimate partner violence, mental health problems and substance abuse,” said the CDC’s Debra Karch, who led the study. 

    While police and politicians may stress crime-fighting to try to lower murder rates, the study suggests that equipping people to better handle conflict may be more effective. 

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deaths-usa/personal-conflicts-biggest-cause-of-murders-in-u-s-idUSTRE64C53R20100513

    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    You say .....


    the number of firearms has increased though the murder rate has decreased.  Yes the U.S. has higher rates than other countries.  You have yet to provide any facts why banning guns would make any measurable effect.  The assault weapons ban had no effect.  And the Australian ban had no effect based on peer reviewed studies and official Australian stats.  Where exactly did you put that notion to bed with actual facts?  Opinion pieces are not facts compared to peer reviewed studies.  You have any of those studies to backup your claims?  Didn't think so.


    My reply ..... You throw out statements with zero proof yet again , you have provided no peer reviewed papers I supply 130 in the links below , maps, facts and charts are also below from American sources .


    You have and studies , papers , maps to back your claims up . Didn’t think so .


    You say ....



    it would be interesting to compare non gun murder rates because I think it could show that the U.S. has a murder problem, rather than a gun problem.  Then perhaps banning knives and cutting instruments should be argued as well, if the real problem is the act of murder rather than the means.

    drug use deaths

    U.S  #5

    Australia #14

    http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/by-country/



    My reply .... It would be interesting to compare accident rates by guns as well zero in my country 70,000 a year average in the states , suicide by guns in my country.......zero , the U S can equal that can it ? 


    School shootings my country ....zero the U S how many?


    Let’s see in my country no murders by spoons so far , maybe you’re right if a gun ban came in one would see a massive increase in deaths by spoons as rabid Americans attacked each other with spoons , school spoonings would become common place and drive by spoonings ....... why not give Americans more guns just in case those spooners get totally out of hand .

     

    You say .....


    Personal conflicts biggest cause of murders in U.S.

    “The pattern that stands out the most is we see a lot of intimate partner violence, mental health problems and substance abuse,” said the CDC’s Debra Karch, who led the study. 

    While police and politicians may stress crime-fighting to try to lower murder rates, the study suggests that equipping people to better handle conflict may be more effective. 

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deaths-usa/personal-conflicts-biggest-cause-of-murders-in-u-s-idUSTRE64C53R20100513



    My reply ...... What a violent country you live in would you not consider moving to a more peaceful country like Syria it seems far less violent that the U S 


  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    tell me which post you provided all these studies

    "You throw out statements with zero proof yet again , you have provided no peer reviewed papers"

    August 17th and 20th I provided more than enough facts to refute your on opinion link that you posts, you choose not to examine the studies and proof I have provided, you are dishonest and disingenuous
    not once have you tried to critique or argue against any link I have provided, you make baseless arguments and just constantly repeat yourself.  This is trollish behavior as far as I'm concerned and I'm getting bored of it.  If you take issue with what I have presented they address the specifics of it.
    You claimed the U.S. should do like Australia did
    I said they are too vastly different to make a comparison and gave reasons for my claim with facts and figures, you just ignored it because I am right and you are wrong.
    If a valid comparison can't be made then nothing else can either.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    how do you propose to get the guns out of gang members and drug dealers hands?
    Your focus on suicide rates in relation to guns does nothing to address the mental illness of these people.  this is a common argument which leads me to believe you are fine that they wallow in such misery so long as they don't use a gun to kill themselves.  as long as they don't do that we can just ignore them, there's no one strongly advocating help for them compared to those who would use their illness for gun control purposes, pretty scumming thing to do imo.
    lest you forget
    killed at least 168 people, injured more than 680 others
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
    https://scout.com/college/auburn/Board/104012/Contents/20th-anniversary-of-1995-OKC-Bombing-false-flag-71067007/
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Did the NFA do anything?  No one can say for certain, especially when you examine the fluctuations in the murders after 1996.
    https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/supplementary/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html
    There is more evidence consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in firearm suicides and mass shootings than reductions in violent crime generally, but there is also evidence that raises questions about whether those changes can be attributed to the NFA or to other factors that influenced suicide and mass shooting rates around the time the NFA was implemented.
    Attributing reductions in suicide and homicide rates to the NFA is complicated by the fact that these rates were decreasing even before the NFA was enacted. 

    Jeanine Baker & Samara McPhedran, Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?, Br. J. Criminology (2006).  The authors commented that the stricter gun laws introduced post-1996 in Australia did not affect firearms homicide rates and may also not have impacted gun suicide and accidental shooting death rates.  They concluded that “[t]here is insufficient evidence to support the simple premise that reducing the stockpile of licitly held civilian firearms will result in a reduction in either firearm or overall sudden death rates.”[

    Wang-Sheng Lee & Sandy Suardi, The Australian Firearms Buyback and Its Effect on Gun Deaths (Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research Working Paper No. 17/08, Aug. 2008).  This paper also reanalyzes data on firearms deaths that was used in previous research, using figures spanning the period from 1915 to 2004.[88]  The authors used “an alternative time-series approach based on unknown structural breaks” in analyzing the data to determine the impact of the National Firearms Agreement on homicide and suicide.[89]  They conclude that “[u]sing a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that [the NFA] had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides.  In addition, there also does not appear to be any substitution effects – that reduced access to firearms may have led those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods.”[90]  Finally, the authors state that “[a]lthough gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths."

    as you will notice the firearm homicide and non-firearm homicide rates both decreased by 59% imo Australians just don't want to kill each other (or themselves) as much as they use to, which wasn't much to begin with.

    In a more recent study by the authors of the 2007 discussion paper listed above, the distinctions between the Australian firearm buybacks and those in other countries were noted, including differences in scale, the fact that the policy was applied nationwide and was accompanied by a ban on particular weapons, differences in geography (i.e., the lack of land borders), and the absence of firearms manufacturing in Australia.[92]  The paper examined the gun buyback and gun death data both across states and over time, and considered a number of variables and trends, in order to answer the question of “whether firearm deaths dropped proportionately more in states where relatively more firearms were bought back.”[93] The paper includes the following information and analysis:

    • Nationally, firearm suicides dropped from a rate of 2.2 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.8 in 2006.  Firearm homicides also dropped, from 0.37 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.15 in 2006.  These figures show “drops of 65% and 59%, respectively, and among a population of 20 million individuals, represent a decline in the number of deaths by firearm suicide of about 300 and in the number of deaths by firearm homicide of about 40 per year.  At the same time, the non-firearm suicide rate has fallen by 27% and the non-firearm homicide rate by 59%.”[94]
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat

    Thanks for that it’s comedy gold 




  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    This is getting monotonous let’s try again .........


    Here are 130 peer reviewed pieces that demolish your assertions yet again 





    https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives



    Here are graphs maps and stats demonstrating how bad the gun problem in America actually is , I guess it’s time for you to run and bury your  head in the sand again buddy with your unique American “problem “ 


    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts



    That’s your assertions  destroyed again buddy.......Next 



  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @Erfisflat

    Thanks for that it’s comedy gold 




    Thanks for confirming that every post you make is fallaciousness.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone
    Applesauce
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce

    This is getting monotonous let’s try again .........


    Here are 130 peer reviewed pieces that demolish your assertions yet again 





    https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives






    Na, it's garbage.  A study of Australia's gun ban couldn't find any tangible effects of their ban.

    Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides.

    ...

    Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.
    https://c8.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/Lee and Suardi 2008.pdf
    Applesauce
  • JoesephJoeseph 654 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 
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