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Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

24



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    Arguments


  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce @CYDdharta

    This is getting monotonous let’s try again .........

    Here are 130 peer reviewed pieces that demolish your assertions yet again 

    https://www.sciencealert.com/scientific-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-saves-lives


    Here are graphs maps and stats demonstrating how bad the gun problem in America actually is , I guess it’s time for you to run and bury your  head in the sand again buddy with your unique American “problem “ 


    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

    That’s your assertions  destroyed again buddy.......Next 



    Vox link is irrelevant, I don't deny there is a problem, this does not prove that "The U.S. should make owning guns illegal"  Though ironically if you look at their graph under #9 the peak and then decline mirrors that of Australia LOL so thanks for that!


    https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-australias-declining-homicide-rates-79654
    guns were never the #1 means of murder in Australia
    Image result for australia murders per year
    First your link talks about 130 studies, which aren't actually presented.  I gave you the actual studies you could read.  You present an op-ed article.
    From you link 
    "And while they stopped short of saying they've conclusively proved that gun restrictions equal fewer deaths, the research provides pretty powerful evidence to suggest that it's the case."
    Individual studies need to be better executed and planned in future to get more convincing results.
    Because the 130 studies were mostly dealing with different laws, the review wasn't able to pinpoint one specific 'magic' legislation that turned gun deaths around.
    there are a whole lot of other factors in society that influence gun deaths outside of gun law
    The authors of each of the 130 studies could have also had affiliations and personal interests that might have biased their results, Santaella-Tenorio and the team admit 

    you should really read your own links LOL you've destroyed your own argument with your own "proof"  thanks for playing, better luck next time.


    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 

    Conveniently ignored is the fact that Australia's gun crime rates were coming down BEFORE the gun ban.  They continued to drop at the same rate.  The ban had NO effect.  Aside from that, there is no indication that what works in one country will work in another.

    I believe your stats for accidental shootings are false.

    As far as gun crimes, we should go with what works; mandatory prison sentences for people who commit crimes with guns and expanding the areas where law-abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves.
    ApplesauceErfisflat
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 
    seriously you should read your own links
    "there was also a decline in nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths during that time of a greater magnitude. Because of this, the authors said it wasn’t possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths could be attributed to the gun law reforms."
    So it’s hard to tell from these data alone what effect the gun buyback schemes and tighter restrictions on firearms had on this decline.

    Conclusions

    What’s less clear is the cause of these decreases.
    The author rightly points out that there is no one cause that can be attributed to the decline in gun related deaths in Australia.

    I mean seriously?
    Erfisflat
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1657 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility, the Las Vegas shooting was determined to be one of the biggest false flags in history.
    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/1288/las-vegas-shooting-sunday-october-1-2017/p1
    beckysmith
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat

    Thanks for confirmation every post you make is copy and pasted from a you tube conspiracy channel normally watched by 10 year olds and the odd Flatard like you 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Absolute hogwash ignore everything that doesn’t fit your agenda , now back to the sandpit and bury your head again 70,000 gun accidents a year 30,000 deaths but hey “ it’s our right to slaughter and maim each other “ ......Better luck next time thank you for playing 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    I mean seriously, you keep mentioning the DECLINE in gun deaths in Australia since the ban  something you keep denying .....checkmate .....again 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense , maybe you need to read my links again and you conveniently ignore the horrifying stats regards the ultra violent society you live in why’s that?
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce

    I mean seriously, you keep mentioning the DECLINE in gun deaths in Australia since the ban  something you keep denying .....checkmate .....again 
    I'm not denying anything, I quoted your own links and provided proof that there is no evidence the gun ban reduced crime.  Next time read your own links and take your rose colored glasses off.  It's a shame, I get it, you and probably most of your countrymen are angry that you gave up so much freedom and they can even say it did anything, that horribly sad on a multitude of levels.  Sure you come on here trying to convince yourself that's not what reality is showing you, but by your own admission via "proof" and the links you cite the experts can't deny it.  There's no evidence that the ban did much of anything but take away some of your freedom and cost the tax payers a bunch of money.  My deepest condolences, but that can happen without a constitution that acknowledges your right.  Your arguments are so week if have had to abandon the actual topic and resort to citing murder stats and even accidents in the U.S. with the only way to tie that to the o.p. is bringing up Australia.  The comparison to Australia and it's ban has been soundly and irrefutably dismissed as b.s.  You have provided no evidence or even conjecture why an Australian ban would work in the U.S. when there's no evidence it did anything in Australia. There is no such description of what it would look like, how it would work or how it would be implemented if it was tried in the U.S. you just keep point to stats.  At this point you are but a pigeon playing chess.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 

    Conveniently ignored is the fact that Australia's gun crime rates were coming down BEFORE the gun ban.  They continued to drop at the same rate.  The ban had NO effect.  Aside from that, there is no indication that what works in one country will work in another.

    I believe your stats for accidental shootings are false.

    As far as gun crimes, we should go with what works; mandatory prison sentences for people who commit crimes with guns and expanding the areas where law-abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves.
    accidents happen, the way to minimize them is education, that should be obvious to everyone.  I mean f.f.s. people forget their own children in the car, another one died just the other day, ?
    Comparing prosecution rates, prison sentences etc of similar laws would be helpful perhaps.  Tracking the changes to laws and looking at the rates wouldn't be conclusive but possibly show a trend.  There's been too many instances of people making huge straw purchases or otherwise possessing guns illegally, and yet the punishment is too light imo.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Still talking about the decline in gun deaths /accidents in Australia and you’re still crying about the decline why’s that ? 
    Applesauce
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    70,000 gun accidents a year in the U S 30,000 gun deaths and guns are not a problem as you again bury your head in the sand and spout nonsense, you didn’t want a comparison with Australia and haven’t stopped spouting on about it , gun deaths and accidents , suicides went down in Australia when the ban came in get over it buddy .

    I note you will do anything to avoid talking about the horrifying gun stats in the U S which I posted with links , maps , charts etc , etc, and being the Ostrich you are you flee for the sand pit .... no defence again I guess ?

    Regards playing chess I bet you call the knight the “ Horsey “ thing   
    Applesauce
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    You say ......accidents happen,

    My reply ..... Yes they do but not with guns in civilized societies, zero in my country yearly 70,000 steady in the U S 

    You say 

     the way to minimize them is education, that should be obvious to everyone. 

    My reply ..... Americans seem to to own a gun come 70,000 yearly ....seriously?


    You say .....

    I mean f.f.s. people forget their own children in the car, another one died just the other day, ?


    My reply ..... And you think people like that should own a gun ?????.

    You say ....

    Comparing prosecution rates, prison sentences etc of similar laws would be helpful perhaps.  Tracking the changes to laws and looking at the rates wouldn't be conclusive but possibly show a trend.  There's been too many instances of people making huge straw purchases or otherwise possessing guns illegally, and yet the punishment is too light imo. 


    My reply .... Ban them end of problem .......next 
    Applesauce
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce

    70,000 gun accidents a year in the U S 30,000 gun deaths and guns are not a problem as you again bury your head in the sand and spout nonsense, you didn’t want a comparison with Australia and haven’t stopped spouting on about it , gun deaths and accidents , suicides went down in Australia when the ban came in get over it buddy .

    I note you will do anything to avoid talking about the horrifying gun stats in the U S which I posted with links , maps , charts etc , etc, and being the Ostrich you are you flee for the sand pit .... no defence again I guess ?

    Regards playing chess I bet you call the knight the “ Horsey “ thing   
    if you would like to talk about the stats then make a thread to do so, this is not about stats, try reading the topic and try sticking to it.  
    So how is saying " suicides went down in Australia when the ban came in get over it buddy ." not talking about Australia?  You accuse me of the very thing that you do, know what that is called?
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    You say .....if you would like to talk about the stats then make a thread to do so, this is not about stats, try reading the topic and try sticking to it.  

    My reply .....  I am sticking to it as in telling you why guns should be banned in your violent society ,you don’t like the figures .....tough 

    You say ......

    So how is saying " suicides went down in Australia when the ban came in get over it buddy ." not talking about Australia? 

    My reply ..I was correcting you on your fifteenth posting about Australia the country you didn’t want to talk about ......remember , I guess not 


    You say ......

    You accuse me of the very thing that you do, know what that is called?


    My reply ..... No I corrected you yet again on the country you have an obsession with it seems.......maybe move there ? 
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    What you are saying (your opinion only) is due to the number of accidents, suicides and murders guns should be banned in the U.S. because of these.  To back up this opinion you cite the Australian ban which has soundly been refuted by quoting the very sources you thought would bolster or prove your opinion.  So what you have left is emotion driven opinion with little to no bases of fact or reality with regards to an efficacy of banning guns.  There was NO attempt by you to challenge or refute any evidence I presented, nor what I picked out of YOUR OWN citations/links.  Obviously you can't thus you pretend they don't exist and ignore them, making some emotionally charged or inane statement.
    There is no proof positive the Australian ban made any statistical difference in the number of deaths.  Your own links admit as much, which has already been pointed out.  Therefore to make a claim that such a ban in the U.S. would also have the same effect as it did in Australia can't be determined, when the effect in Australia can't be determined.  You can assume and speculate all you wish, but those are the facts even by your own links.  While you are entitled to your opinion you can't try to pass it off as fact, there is no evidence for your claims and your own links prove that.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Wow ! Your obsession with Australia is scary still no defence of the sickening American gun stats ? I suppose deflection is all you got  left as in ignore what happening in the U S .

    Incidentally you admitted the DECLINE in gun deaths / accidents in Australia now you’ve changed your mind yet again ...... Bet your next post mentions Australia at least 8 times 
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    your reading comprehension is abysmal.  I never denied the U.S. stats, go point out where I did.  Calling b.s. on your claim that the U.S. should ban guns is not ignoring what is happening, I can't believe I have to explain that to you.
    Again you seem to have a real difficulty reading.  I never claimed or said deaths didn't go down in Australia and in fact said they were going down before the ban.  Do you have some kind of cognitive difficultly because i'd feel bad for being so harsh with you if that is why you say the things you do.  Read what is written, perhaps take notes on a pad next to you so you can follow the bouncing ball, it's really not that difficult and I've really tried hard to make it as plain and simple for you to follow. 
    You need to start providing quotes of what I said and prove I changed my mind or any other accusations you wish to launch at me, other wise you are nothing but a liar.
    Stop being a pigeon trying to playing chess.
    Erfisflat
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce

    A fairly typical response from you at this stage at least you’ve calmed down and stopped obsessing about Australia , so you deny the stats for Aus then agree with them , now you’re disagreeing with them but admitting a DECLINE in gun deaths / accidents thereby agreeing with them .......please make your mind up ? 

    You offered only NRA stats and biased sources but thats the gun nuts way isn’t it , I guess it’s time for you to run to the sand pit and bury your head  in the sand again ......mind you don’t get shot running there 
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    you are so confused, you have forgotten whom you are addressing so I won't call you a liar, yet.  I never offered any NRA stats, so you can either point to where I did, admit you made a mistake or be a liar for making a false claim, your choice.
    Again you have not shown where I denied the stats, so again, so you can either point to where I did, admit you made a mistake or be a liar for making a false claim, your choice.
    Failure to address both of the above will leave me no choice but to label and consider you very dishonest person.
    Your opinion that my sources are biased are irrelevant, you haven't shown their bias and that the claims they make aren't true.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce



    This is is a fair assessment of what you’re really saying as your only defence seems to be calling what you disagree with lies 


    You say .....

    I am so confused, I  have forgotten who I was you addressing so I admit I’m a  liar,  I offered NRA stats, so , I admit I made a mistake as I’m a liar for making a false claim,
    Again I  have shown where I denied the stats, so again, you’re right I  admit I made a mistake and am a liar for making a false claim, 

    My failure  to address both of the above makes me a  very dishonest person.

    Your opinion that my sources are biased is true  I have shown their bias and that the claims they make aren't true


    My reply ..... I know all this ,I accept your apology 



  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense , maybe you need to read my links again and you conveniently ignore the horrifying stats regards the ultra violent society you live in why’s that?

    I read your links, they just don't agree with reality.  To see why, read my links and @Applesauce's links again (or, more than likely, for the first time.).
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    Nonsense , maybe you need to read my links again and you conveniently ignore the horrifying stats regards the ultra violent society you live in why’s that?

    I read your links, they just don't agree with reality.  To see why, read my links and @Applesauce's links again (or, more than likely, for the first time.).
    he can read his own links LOL they shoot him in the foot just fine.  I pulled the stuff from his links and he just ignored those facts as well, he's just dishonest.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    You're still Trolling I see denying facts seems to be your thing 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce


    Still no defence for 70,000 gun accidents and 30,000 gun deaths in the U S ? Also it’s on the rise according to the FBI but what would they know ? 

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/dec/04/jeff-sessions/violent-crime-some-still-well-historical-highs/

    So carry on on talking about how you cannot accept the DECLINE you’ve accepted in Australia and keep ignoring stats regarding the U S your dishonesty is appalling 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You are not qualified to speak of reality when people like you deny 70,000 guns accidents and 30,000 gun deaths a year and rising in the U S , your links and your buddies link are what you Americans no doubt call “ alternative reality “ as you joyously continue to slaughter and maim each other yet bleat “ Buh, Buh it’s our right to carry a gun “ 
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph

    You are incredibly dense.  Not one post did you critique or attempt to pick apart any link I provided.  On the other hand I easily did that to your links on the gun ban, which you had no counter to.  You deny your own links and what they said LOL  
    So now you have backed off you stance about a gun ban and just continue to post stats which no one is arguing.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    the clear answer must be no, there is no real proof or evidence that it would make any appreciable difference.  any claim that it would work is mere speculation.  Numerous studies and links have been provided, even by YOU that states as much LOL
    my posts from August 21 show even your own links can't prove the ban did much of anything to reduce much of anything, but you ignore your own facts, this is the text book meaning of dishonest debate and you are now it's face.  Your refusal or lack of ability to address what is plainly pointed out to you is proof you don't wish to engage in honest debate but rather just troll.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @CYDdharta

    You are not qualified to speak of reality when people like you deny 70,000 guns accidents and 30,000 gun deaths a year and rising in the U S , your links and your buddies link are what you Americans no doubt call “ alternative reality “ as you joyously continue to slaughter and maim each other yet bleat “ Buh, Buh it’s our right to carry a gun “ 


    70,000 accidents, but only 495 deaths?!?  Now THAT'S what I call alternate reality.  Admit it, your stats are bogus.
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce


    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Still you cannot address even one of the 15 points made in the VOX article that uses American sources , you keep posting the Australian link I think that’s 35 time now yet you admit a DECLINE since the ban , where did I ever say gun deaths were the biggest cause of deaths in Australia also why are you ignoring the drop in suicides and accidents by guns in Australia since the ban ? We all know why don’t we as you’ve been utterly exposed and destroyed 

    Also you conveniently left out the verdict from my Australian link ....let me help ......you’re welcome ....

    .Verdict

    Tim Fischer was correct when he said there has been “a reduction in gun deaths in this country” since the Howard government introduced stricter gun laws in 1996, and since the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks took place.

    In the two decades following the reforms, the annual rate of gun deaths fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to 0.9 per 100,000 in 2016.

    Does research show that the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks had “no effect” on that reduction in firearm deaths, as Diana Melham said? First of all, it’s not possible to disentangle any effect of the gun buybacks from the rest of the gun reforms introduced at the same time.

    What we can say with certainty is that in the 15 years prior to the first gun buyback in 1996, there had been 13 mass shootings in Australia. In the 21 years since more restrictive firearm policies came into effect, there has not been a single mass shooting in the country.



    So can you explain why there’s less gun crime , deaths , accidents in states with less guns in the U S ..... Maybe they’re killing each other with spoons as you suggested ? 

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    The NSC’s “Injury Facts -2017 Edition” shows a 17 percent decrease in accidents involving firearms from 2014 to 2015, a period when gun sales soared.

    There were 489 unintentional firearms-related fatalities during that time period, the lowest total since record-keeping began in 1903, accounting for less than 1 percent of accident deaths. This decrease, which was the largest percentage decline of any category cited in the NSC’s report, came in a year that saw record-high firearm sales.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/30/as-gun-sales-rise-accidental-gun-deaths-drop-to-record-levels-report-says.html

    (more guns yet less accidental deaths, interesting, this is not to say there isn't a murder problem but puts the accidents in to context, how are gun related injuries defined?  I can't find anything, if I drop a gun on my toe is that a gun related injury?)

    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @Applesauce


    Nonsense ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Still you cannot address even one of the 15 points made in the VOX article that uses American sources , you keep posting the Australian link I think that’s 35 time now yet you admit a DECLINE since the ban , where did I ever say gun deaths were the biggest cause of deaths in Australia also why are you ignoring the drop in suicides and accidents by guns in Australia since the ban ? We all know why don’t we as you’ve been utterly exposed and destroyed 

    <I addresed the idea of a gun ban with actual studies and cites, vox is a liberal hack site.>

    Also you conveniently left out the verdict from my Australian link ....let me help ......you’re welcome ....

    .Verdict

    Tim Fischer was correct when he said there has been “a reduction in gun deaths in this country” since the Howard government introduced stricter gun laws in 1996, and since the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks took place.

    In the two decades following the reforms, the annual rate of gun deaths fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to 0.9 per 100,000 in 2016.

    Does research show that the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks had “no effect” on that reduction in firearm deaths, as Diana Melham said? First of all, it’s not possible to disentangle any effect of the gun buybacks from the rest of the gun reforms introduced at the same time.

    <you selectively left out the whole verdict which I have posted twice before, 3rd time is a charm I guess."Some researchers have concluded the reforms as a whole had little effect on reducing the number of gun deaths in Australia. But other researchers have concluded the reforms did have an effect.">

    <that's exactly what I have already proven and said, it's impossible to determine if the ban had any effect (for the 10th time) you finally get it now?>

    What we can say with certainty is that in the 15 years prior to the first gun buyback in 1996, there had been 13 mass shootings in Australia. In the 21 years since more restrictive firearm policies came into effect, there has not been a single mass shooting in the country.

    <correlation does not imply causation>

    So can you explain why there’s less gun crime , deaths , accidents in states with less guns in the U S ..... Maybe they’re killing each other with spoons as you suggested ? 

    <this isn't necessarily true, especially when looked at on a county level)

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 

    <better enforcement of existing laws and perhaps tougher punishment for gun related crimes, lesser sentences and reducing of non violent crimes to infractions, the U.S. prisons have many non violent 'criminals" in them, seems like a waste of space, space that should be occupied by violent criminals and reduce over crowding.  Address and focusing on mental health.  This is going a bit off topic, since it's actually about banning guns in the U.S.>

    A new study reveals that nearly 70 percent of all the murders in the United States take place in 5 percent of the nation’s counties – and more than half of all homicides occur in just 2 percent of its counties.

    https://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2017/04/30/68-of-us-murders-occur-in-5-of-its-counties

    In 2014 – the most recent year that a county level breakdown is available – 54 percent of counties (with 11 percent of the population) have no murders,

    It seems they know where the murders are occurring, and I've previously posted why.  Yet the focus isn't on any of that, don't you find that a bit strange?

    New York City homicide rate lowest since second World War

    The latest New York City homicide number is the lowest in the modern era of NYPD Compstat record keeping, which began in 1994. It is a fraction of the record 2,245 killings in 1990 during an era of major drug-fueled violence.
    O’Neill attributed the declines to some core factors: “precision” policing against key offenders, anti-gang initiatives and aggressive gun investigations. (not actual bans)
    https://www.amny.com/news/nyc-homicides-record-low-1.15725051
    Commissioner O’Neill credited enhanced training, upgraded equipment and an initiative known as neighborhood policing, which divides precincts into several sectors that the same officers work on the same shift. It’s meant to build ties between the communities and the officers that serve them.
    “We’re restoring the role of patrol cop as problem solver,” O’Neill said.
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/york-city-records-fewest-murders-lowest-crime-rate/story?id=52166562

    Though I don't know the actual figures, at one time NYC had the reputation of being one of the most crime ridden cities in the U.S. but no longer.  Given the success in NYC why don't other cities with perceived extremely high crime rates do the same things?  I have a few guesses but no answers.  The only solutions I ever hear from these other hell holes is the chant of more gun control which they don't really get.  This leads to a conclusion that if hell hole city X does what NYC did w/o any further gun control and it works, that means gun control was never the problem or answer.  They must believe this to be true which is why they don't mirror NYC in all the other ways that were not gun control.  It's not about people, they don't care about them otherwise they would have tried these other things long ago, nope it's about control plain and simple.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Oh dear in reply to my detailed maps , graphs and checkable  stats from reliable American sources your reply is a piece from a Christian values news site which straight away demonstrates the lunacy of America’s religious believers in  that they somehow think Jesus would have recommended every citizen  tool up because “ Buh , Buh it’s my right “ then you add one broken link and a piece from the highly biased ABC news ........Oh dear , how typical 
  • beckysmithbeckysmith 34 Pts   -  
    The main argument I've seen is that pro-gun citizens don't have faith in the government to control guns from illegal activities (drug dealers, criminals etc.)? 

    My main argument is that I see absolutely no reason someone should own a gun, and in my opinion, the benefits/risks of banning guns favors the benefits/risks of us owning guns. There are many countries where the majority of the population does not own guns and according to the news and statistics, they are more peaceful then us, and generally less aggressive. 

    Even if we look for other solutions instead of banning guns, what is our current solution? Arm teachers and put guns into more citizens hands? Not to turn political, but I believe a large reason why gun laws have not changed is because it is a huge business. And it is a fact that money=power. Anybody that has money will agree with me. 

    I try to be open minded about things but I don't see any reason that people should own guns. I will try my best to be open minded and consider any counterargument. 
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    Well said , I live in a country where citizens do not carry guns the thought of such a practice is horrifying to us , our police force do not carry guns only specialist units are allowed carry . 

    Most Americans unfortunately see nothing at all wrong with carrying and totally igonore the appalling figures and stats yearly in the U S , if guns are so beneficial to a society why is it so many countries like mine are far more peaceful and more violent crime free than the US ? 
    beckysmith
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1657 Pts   -  
    The main argument I've seen is that pro-gun citizens don't have faith in the government to control guns from illegal activities (drug dealers, criminals etc.)? 

    My main argument is that I see absolutely no reason someone should own a gun, and in my opinion, the benefits/risks of banning guns favors the benefits/risks of us owning guns. There are many countries where the majority of the population does not own guns and according to the news and statistics, they are more peaceful then us, and generally less aggressive. 

    Even if we look for other solutions instead of banning guns, what is our current solution? Arm teachers and put guns into more citizens hands? Not to turn political, but I believe a large reason why gun laws have not changed is because it is a huge business. And it is a fact that money=power. Anybody that has money will agree with me. 

    I try to be open minded about things but I don't see any reason that people should own guns. I will try my best to be open minded and consider any counterargument. 
    That is a legitimate reason, but my main argument is that governments are inheritantly corrupt. As you said, money=power. And an unarmed country is easier to control, in the US, if the government we're to turn against it's people, it would be harder to control an armed population.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph
    ROFL that's rich, you don't know what debating is.  I've picked apart your links, challenged you to prove many things and back up your claims, you have not done so.  All you to is keep repeating the same things, that one vox link, I've already addressed and debunked it twice now, you are like a parrot.  Though they might be better at debating than you.  You should study more and post less, high school can be quite challenging, and it should be, it can greatly expand your otherwise very closed mind.
    How do you explain all the evidence from links, including your own there is no real proof or evidence that a ban would make any appreciable difference?  Any claim that it did have an appreciable effect is mere speculation.  Numerous studies and links have been provided, even by YOU that states as much.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    The main argument I've seen is that pro-gun citizens don't have faith in the government to control guns from illegal activities (drug dealers, criminals etc.)? 

    My main argument is that I see absolutely no reason someone should own a gun, and in my opinion, the benefits/risks of banning guns favors the benefits/risks of us owning guns. There are many countries where the majority of the population does not own guns and according to the news and statistics, they are more peaceful then us, and generally less aggressive. 

    Even if we look for other solutions instead of banning guns, what is our current solution? Arm teachers and put guns into more citizens hands? Not to turn political, but I believe a large reason why gun laws have not changed is because it is a huge business. And it is a fact that money=power. Anybody that has money will agree with me. 

    I try to be open minded about things but I don't see any reason that people should own guns. I will try my best to be open minded and consider any counterargument. 
    I have to ask, have you read the posts in this thread, much of what you have said has been addressed already.  If you have just come here to express your feelings about something you are in the wrong place, that's not what this is about or what we are doing.
    Arming teachers is another debate all together and not relevant in this topic.
    I don't believe guns are a huge business in America, can you prove your statement that it is?
    You haven't made any real arguments to counter I'm afraid, at least nothing relevant or new.
    If you'd like to pick one specific thing we can discuss it, but please read everything previous so we just don't keep rehashing the same things that have been said.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • beckysmithbeckysmith 34 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph
    ROFL that's rich, you don't know what debating is.  I've picked apart your links, challenged you to prove many things and back up your claims, you have not done so.  All you to is keep repeating the same things, that one vox link, I've already addressed and debunked it twice now, you are like a parrot.  Though they might be better at debating than you.  You should study more and post less, high school can be quite challenging, and it should be, it can greatly expand your otherwise very closed mind.
    How do you explain all the evidence from links, including your own there is no real proof or evidence that a ban would make any appreciable difference?  Any claim that it did have an appreciable effect is mere speculation.  Numerous studies and links have been provided, even by YOU that states as much.
    The proof is in front of all of us. Look at Japan, Australia, UK and convince me that the reason why they are safer than the US is not because of their gun laws and unavailability to guns. Also, what other country needs to fear that their child might be shot and killed at school. I hope you feel where my anger is coming from. I don't think a logical solution is to arm our teachers and arm more people to increase safety. This is a cold war like ideology that is outrageous to me. This is my opinion. I am open-minded to your thoughts on this.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • beckysmithbeckysmith 34 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.
    I'm using teachers as an argument as to why the U.S. should make owning guns illegal, i'm not sure how that got lost in translation.

    I'll start with this: you said that you don't believe that guns are a big business in the US?

    I think that it is pretty clear without even looking at the numbers that it is a big business. You do understand that the U.S. military (which is huge by the way) has to be supplied with guns and ammo, as well as police officers, and then there are recreational consumers. Earlier I read that the U.S. has more guns than there are people. Off the top of my head, the price of the average gun is at least $100 no? population of the US is 325 million. 100 x 325 million = $32,500,000,000 industry, and thats me downplaying it.

  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    @Applesauce


    Still no defence for 70,000 gun accidents and 30,000 gun deaths in the U S ? Also it’s on the rise according to the FBI but what would they know ? 


    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/dec/04/jeff-sessions/violent-crime-some-still-well-historical-highs/


    So carry on on talking about how you cannot accept the DECLINE you’ve accepted in Australia and keep ignoring stats regarding the U S your dishonesty is appalling 



    Tell you what get all your fellow gun nuts to help you formulate a defense for the 15 points you’ve failed to defend in this link https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts


    All use  American agencies and  your reply is NRA propaganda , Fox News a Christian website and a broken link .....hilarious 


    You’re still running as you’ve no defence have you except a .....”Christian news “site and an invalid link 



    It’s incredible that only last week you were calling for a ban on spoons in the U S in case Americans used them as weapons you then turned comedy gold to comedy platinum by stating “ A car is actually a lethal weapon and like spoons should be banned “ .......

    beckysmith
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    You ignored the findings as in the verdict by the panel of experts on the Australian experience ......



    ......http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-did-government-gun-buybacks-reduce-the-number-of-gun-deaths-in-australia-85836

    Still you cannot address even one of the 15 points made in the VOX article that uses American sources , you keep posting the Australian link I think that’s 35 time now yet you admit a DECLINE since the ban , where did I ever say gun deaths were the biggest cause of deaths in Australia also why are you ignoring the drop in suicides and accidents by guns in Australia since the ban ? We all know why don’t we as you’ve been utterly exposed and destroyed 

    Also you conveniently left out the verdict from my Australian link ....let me help ......you’re welcome ....

    .Verdict

    Tim Fischer was correct when he said there has been “a reduction in gun deaths in this country” since the Howard government introduced stricter gun laws in 1996, and since the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks took place.

    In the two decades following the reforms, the annual rate of gun deaths fell from 2.9 per 100,000 in 1996 to 0.9 per 100,000 in 2016.

    Does research show that the 1996 and 2003 gun buybacks had “no effect” on that reduction in firearm deaths, as Diana Melham said? First of all, it’s not possible to disentangle any effect of the gun buybacks from the rest of the gun reforms introduced at the same time.

    What we can say with certainty is that in the 15 years prior to the first gun buyback in 1996, there had been 13 mass shootings in Australia. In the 21 years since more restrictive firearm policies came into effect, there has not been a single mass shooting in the country.



    So can you explain why there’s less gun crime , deaths , accidents in states with less guns in the U S ..... Maybe they’re killing each other with spoons as you suggested ? 

    Also whats your solution to America’s 70,000 gun accidents a year and 30,000 deaths ..... Bury your head in the sand maybe ? 
    beckysmith
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.
    I'm using teachers as an argument as to why the U.S. should make owning guns illegal, i'm not sure how that got lost in translation.

    <in most states teachers can't bring guns to school, so banning a whole citizenry isn't necessary>

    I'll start with this: you said that you don't believe that guns are a big business in the US?

    I think that it is pretty clear without even looking at the numbers that it is a big business. You do understand that the U.S. military (which is huge by the way) has to be supplied with guns and ammo, as well as police officers, and then there are recreational consumers. Earlier I read that the U.S. has more guns than there are people. Off the top of my head, the price of the average gun is at least $100 no? population of the US is 325 million. 100 x 325 million = $32,500,000,000 industry, and thats me downplaying it.

    unless you want to ban the military from having guns that has nothing to do with the private ownership and business from that.
    average price is probably more that $100, probably closer to $500
    well I can't find any numbers that don't include ammo and exports so we'll say it is a big business, though I don't see any relevance to that.
    the countries you previously mentioned never had a right to own firearms anyway.  The founding and history of each nation is unique as are their people, culture and laws.  You have yet to articulate how making owning guns illegal in the U.S. would effect a reduction in murders.  I gave an example of how NYC did it w/o any such ban or making them illegal.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • beckysmithbeckysmith 34 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.
    I'm using teachers as an argument as to why the U.S. should make owning guns illegal, i'm not sure how that got lost in translation.

    <in most states teachers can't bring guns to school, so banning a whole citizenry isn't necessary>

    I'll start with this: you said that you don't believe that guns are a big business in the US?

    I think that it is pretty clear without even looking at the numbers that it is a big business. You do understand that the U.S. military (which is huge by the way) has to be supplied with guns and ammo, as well as police officers, and then there are recreational consumers. Earlier I read that the U.S. has more guns than there are people. Off the top of my head, the price of the average gun is at least $100 no? population of the US is 325 million. 100 x 325 million = $32,500,000,000 industry, and thats me downplaying it.

    unless you want to ban the military from having guns that has nothing to do with the private ownership and business from that.
    average price is probably more that $100, probably closer to $500
    well I can't find any numbers that don't include ammo and exports so we'll say it is a big business, though I don't see any relevance to that.
    the countries you previously mentioned never had a right to own firearms anyway.  The founding and history of each nation is unique as are their people, culture and laws.  You have yet to articulate how making owning guns illegal in the U.S. would effect a reduction in murders.  I gave an example of how NYC did it w/o any such ban or making them illegal.
    So we can agree that it is a big business. I never said we should stop supplying our military or our police, I would rather that they are legally the only ones who can own them. As for the statistics, I believe Joseph above provided multiple strong links to studies on gun laws correlating to safety.

    I think your NYC example is strong, however, I would question if that would work the same in every state, and why take that route when we can ban guns and eliminate the risk? Seems as if you have another reason as to why you are so keen on having possession of a gun?
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    Joseph's vox article
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts
    1. the U.S. has many more gun murders, where's the evidence and facts that a ban would effectively reduce those numbers?  How would you begin to try to implement such a ban, send the military house to house?
    2. People in the U.S. own a lot of guns (see #1 response) yet a very small % actually use them to commit crimes.
    3. mass shootings, horrible to be sure, same response as #1
    4. same thing as #3 just worded differently, nothing substantially different in the context
    5. states with more guns have more gun deaths (thought this was about murders?) see #1 again, do these states also have more drugs and other crimes?  This isn't necessarily true as some states have a lot of guns but very low rates
    6. other countries with a lot of guns have higher rates too, and some of them have the strictest laws so.....
    7. America is only an outlier when it comes to homicides, and population, there sure is a lot more American population compared to most countries
    8. tighter control equals less murders.  that's just not true, some states that have the loosest laws also have the lowest rates.
    9. gun murders have declined, this is actually true, yet there are more guns.......but I thought more guns meant more murders, a bit contradictory.
    10. most gun deaths are suicides (again thought this was about murders) that's probably true, but I've already addressed this
    11. states with the most guns have the most suicides, probably true, but that's a mental health issue, not a gun issue.
    12. guns allow people to kill themselves more easily, mind boggling, did someone do a study and rank the means on a scale or something?
    13. States and countries can significantly reduce the number of suicides by restricting access to guns.  they talk about the Australian ban which I have addressed already.
    14. states with more guns, more police are killed,  sure
    15. Americans have shifted from mostly supporting the concept of gun control to greater support for protecting “the right of Americans to own guns,” they clearly don't want to give up their rights.

    So none of this proves much of anything does it,
    "Correlation does not imply causation" is a phrase used in statistics to emphasize that a correlation between two variables does not imply that one causes the other.[1][2] Many statistical tests calculate correlation between variables. A few go further, using correlation as a basis for testing a hypothesis of a true causal relationship; examples are the Granger causality test and convergent cross mapping.
    https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation.html

    explain how NYC made such a drastic reduction in crime w/o a gun ban? 
    Do you believe the their claims to be true? 
    If you do how can you explain their success w/o a ban?
    If they had a success w/o a ban, why do you insist a ban is necessary?


    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • JoesephJoeseph 575 Pts   -  


    Regards crime reporting in New York always look at the sources here’s a piece from FiveThirtyEight......The New York City Police Department, for example, has been trumpeting what it calls record-low crime rates in 2015 — in the commissioner’s media appearances, in a press release and in tweets — without mentioning that homicides, rapes and robberies all rose from a year earlier. Meanwhile, the police chief and his predecessor are embroiled in an ongoing spat over the reliability of the department’s reporting of murder and shooting stats.

    Late last month, former NYPD commissioner Raymond Kelly said current commissioner William Bratton tried to deflate the city’s shooting totals by directing officers not to count people injured by broken glass caused by gunfire, or whose clothes but not bodies are hit in shootings. Bratton sayssuch incidents have been omitted consistently since the department started tracking shootings during his first stint as commissioner in 1994. But he pointed out that both types of shootings are counted as aggravated assaults in official stats reported to the FBI.1

    The conflicting messages make New York a good case study in the limits of crime reporting. Here’s a primer for how to understand crime numbers, in New York and beyond, and what they say and don’t about how safe we are from crime.

    Official crime reporting is slow. Headlines are based on cities’ unofficial stats. Only some of those get reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting system, the official national repository of crime data. Much of the detailed crime information some cities collect doesn’t go into the UCR. And the FBI won’t release the 2015 numbers for the more than 18,000 departments that report to it until the fall.

    Some cities report their own crime data in closer to real time, but it varies widely. I contacted dozens of police departments over the past week to ask for their year-end homicide totals. Some responded promptly. Others didn’t respond, or said they’d treat the request like a public-records inquiry that would take up to 10 days, or said they wouldn’t have their year-end count until March.

    Just last week, the NYPD expanded the data it was sharing outside the confines of UCR. The department published data on criminal incidents that Bratton called part of a “continued effort to promote transparency,” yet it still leaves the country’s biggest city well behind much smaller peers in the level of detail it shares about crimes.

    There are lots of official crime numbers, and they don’t all move together.New York isn’t the only place this year where crime trends look different depending on which crime indicators you’re studying. In Chicago and Oakland, homicides rose but overall crime fell. That’s not unusual — the Brennan Center found that crime overall was down in the country’s largest cities in 20152 even as homicides rose. (Los Angeles and Charlotte, North Carolina, were clear exceptions with crime up around 10 percent.) And something similar happened in the last two years, too. In 2014, the difference among the country’s 60 most populous cities’ homicide rates3explained just 60 percent of the difference4 in their rates of violent crimes and overall crime — which also includes property crimes. Homicides tracked even less with broader crime indices in 2013, explaining just 53 percent of the variation.

    Applesauce
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    The NSC’s “Injury Facts -2017 Edition” shows a 17 percent decrease in accidents involving firearms from 2014 to 2015, a period when gun sales soared.

    There were 489 unintentional firearms-related fatalities during that time period, the lowest total since record-keeping began in 1903, accounting for less than 1 percent of accident deaths. This decrease, which was the largest percentage decline of any category cited in the NSC’s report, came in a year that saw record-high firearm sales.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/30/as-gun-sales-rise-accidental-gun-deaths-drop-to-record-levels-report-says.html

    (more guns yet less accidental deaths, interesting, this is not to say there isn't a murder problem but puts the accidents in to context, how are gun related injuries defined?  I can't find anything, if I drop a gun on my toe is that a gun related injury?)


    ...and with it, @Joeseph's 70,000 firearms accidents stat falls.  An accidental discharge will hit someone in a random place.  If 70,000 people are shot in random spot on their body, there would be more than 489 deaths.  That's nearly half of one percent of deaths per incident.  The head and heart account for a larger area of the body than than.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1657 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith said:
    I never said we should stop supplying our military or our police, I would rather that they are legally the only ones who can own them.

    Governments have collectively killed more innocent people than any entity in history, and you propose we give the all the guns?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Joeseph
    so pretty much if we can't believe the stats we can't really have a discussion about this then, I'm not sure where to go with that.  However the rates are generally going down without a ban and that shouldn't be in dispute.  So let's look at it a different way

    States With The Most Murders

    1California1,861
    2Texas1,316
    3Florida1,041
    4.Illinois744
    5Pennsylvania658
    6Georgia615
    7New York609
    8Michigan571
    9North Carolina517
    10Maryland516
    11Missouri502
    12Ohio500
    13Louisiana481
    14Tennessee406
    15South Carolina399
    16Virginia383
    17Indiana373
    18New Jersey363
    19Alabama348
    20Arizona309
    21Mississippi259
    22Wisconsin240
    23Oklahoma234
    24Washington211
    25Kentucky209
    26Arkansas181
    27Nevada178
    28Colorado176
    29District of Columbia162
    30Minnesota133
    31Kansas128
    32Massachusetts128
    33Connecticut117
    34New Mexico117
    35Oregon99
    36Iowa72
    37West Virginia70
    38Delaware63
    39Nebraska62
    40Alaska59
    41Utah54
    42Montana36
    43Idaho32
    44South Dakota32
    45Rhode Island29
    46Maine23
    47North Dakota21
    48Hawaii19
    49Wyoming16
    50New Hampshire14
    51Vermont10

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/murder-capital-of-the-us-states-with-the-most-murders.html

    9 States with the loosest gun laws (in bold above)
    https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/states-loosest-gun-laws.html/
    1. Arizona
    2. Alaska
    3. Wyoming
    4. Vermont
    5. Kansas
    6. Kentucky
    7. Mississippi
    8. Utah
    9. South Carolina

    9 States with the strictest gun laws (underlined)
    1. California
    2. New Jersey
    3. Massachusetts
    4. New York
    5. Connecticut
    6. Hawaii
    7. Maryland
    8, Rhode Island
    9. Illinois
    https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html

    the question is why?  When you look at this it appears the level of gun control or lack of, is beneficial to some states and detrimental to others.  What is it about those with the loosest laws and the lowest rates?  Or why do the states with the strictest have the highest murders?  I think all these are unique and can't be looked other than individually.  Because correlation does not imply causation, you can't say strict laws = more murders and loose laws = less murders.  There's something else, there's more to it than gun laws.  I believe the stats reflect that. It's also far more complex than believing a ban or more laws would accelerate the reduction of the murder rates which have been declining anyway.
    Incidentally Vermont has a gun murder rate of 1.3/100k
                        California                                       3.3/100k
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @beckysmith

    if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

    Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

    is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.
    I'm using teachers as an argument as to why the U.S. should make owning guns illegal, i'm not sure how that got lost in translation.

    <in most states teachers can't bring guns to school, so banning a whole citizenry isn't necessary>

    I'll start with this: you said that you don't believe that guns are a big business in the US?

    I think that it is pretty clear without even looking at the numbers that it is a big business. You do understand that the U.S. military (which is huge by the way) has to be supplied with guns and ammo, as well as police officers, and then there are recreational consumers. Earlier I read that the U.S. has more guns than there are people. Off the top of my head, the price of the average gun is at least $100 no? population of the US is 325 million. 100 x 325 million = $32,500,000,000 industry, and thats me downplaying it.

    unless you want to ban the military from having guns that has nothing to do with the private ownership and business from that.
    average price is probably more that $100, probably closer to $500
    well I can't find any numbers that don't include ammo and exports so we'll say it is a big business, though I don't see any relevance to that.
    the countries you previously mentioned never had a right to own firearms anyway.  The founding and history of each nation is unique as are their people, culture and laws.  You have yet to articulate how making owning guns illegal in the U.S. would effect a reduction in murders.  I gave an example of how NYC did it w/o any such ban or making them illegal.
    So we can agree that it is a big business. I never said we should stop supplying our military or our police, I would rather that they are legally the only ones who can own them. As for the statistics, I believe Joseph above provided multiple strong links to studies on gun laws correlating to safety.

    I think your NYC example is strong, however, I would question if that would work the same in every state, and why take that route when we can ban guns and eliminate the risk? Seems as if you have another reason as to why you are so keen on having possession of a gun?
    if you read what I wrote in response to Joseph's links you will find they are very weak and correlation does not imply causation.
    possession of a gun is a right,  I don't need any reason outside of because it is my right to do so.  much like free speech is a right which is unique to only the U.S.  I can understand why these are difficult concepts to fully understand unless you have lived it.  Like how I couldn't understand living w/o them.
    Erfisflat
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
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