Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

if you want to make a thread about arming teachers please do so or post to one that already exists, that's not what this is about.

Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?

is the title and Joseph brought up Australia and I have responded to the comparison, including the effects if any, of their ban at great length in the previous posts.  If you wish to discuss something about a previous post or point in one, I'd be happy to do that.

I'm using teachers as an argument as to why the U.S. should make owning guns illegal, i'm not sure how that got lost in translation.

<in most states teachers can't bring guns to school, so banning a whole citizenry isn't necessary>

I'll start with this: you said that you don't believe that guns are a big business in the US?

I think that it is pretty clear without even looking at the numbers that it is a big business. You do understand that the U.S. military (which is huge by the way) has to be supplied with guns and ammo, as well as police officers, and then there are recreational consumers. Earlier I read that the U.S. has more guns than there are people. Off the top of my head, the price of the average gun is at least $100 no? population of the US is 325 million. 100 x 325 million = $32,500,000,000 industry, and thats me downplaying it.

unless you want to ban the military from having guns that has nothing to do with the private ownership and business from that.
average price is probably more that $100, probably closer to $500
well I can't find any numbers that don't include ammo and exports so we'll say it is a big business, though I don't see any relevance to that.
the countries you previously mentioned never had a right to own firearms anyway.  The founding and history of each nation is unique as are their people, culture and laws.  You have yet to articulate how making owning guns illegal in the U.S. would effect a reduction in murders.  I gave an example of how NYC did it w/o any such ban or making them illegal.

So we can agree that it is a big business. I never said we should stop supplying our military or our police, I would rather that they are legally the only ones who can own them. As for the statistics, I believe Joseph above provided multiple strong links to studies on gun laws correlating to safety.

I think your NYC example is strong, however, I would question if that would work the same in every state, and why take that route when we can ban guns and eliminate the risk? Seems as if you have another reason as to why you are so keen on having possession of a gun?

if you read what I wrote in response to Joseph's links you will find they are very weak and correlation does not imply causation.
possession of a gun is a right,  I don't need any reason outside of because it is my right to do so.  much like free speech is a right which is unique to only the U.S.  I can understand why these are difficult concepts to fully understand unless you have lived it.  Like how I couldn't understand living w/o them.

You stated "possession of a gun is a right,  I don't need any reason outside of because it is my right to do so." That is a horrible reason why we should keep gun laws. And its frankly selfish. You could have at least said you enjoy shooting guns at a range or something. 

I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. Put it in the hands of the law enforcers. If you don't trust them, then that is a bigger issue in and of itself. 

I would understand your argument if you had at least a decent reason why we shouldn't make owning guns illegal but so far all i've heard from you is oh they're killing a bunch of people but not that many and it is our right and you can't take it away.

beckysmith

Erfisflat said:

@beckysmith said:
I never said we should stop supplying our military or our police, I would rather that they are legally the only ones who can own them.

Governments have collectively killed more innocent people than any entity in history, and you propose we give the all the guns?

you have any better ideas? Do you want to give it to your little brother? 

If the government is killing innocent people, citizens easily have the power to impeach the president, and make a change. Changing the phycology and mental state of all American citizens isn't so much. Plus come on, you cant compare government causing casualties vs citizens. How many citizens and gang wars are larger scale and happen more often then wars? Come on man.

Erfisflat

@beckysmith
"you have any better ideas? Do you want to give it to your little brother? "

Ya, leave responsible gun owners alone. My little brother is one of them, he's 37 and has never harmed a fly, is a store manager at a local building supply, and has just purchased a house. He's actually a perfect candidate, not only to protect his new property, but his wife as well.

"If the government is killing innocent people, citizens easily have the power to impeach the president, and make a change."

That's a false statement. What did the citizens do about Hitler? Mao, Stalin, etc. All of these country leaders killed innocent, unarmed citizens, and they couldn't just "impeach" them. Your statement is not logical.

"Changing the phycology and mental state of all American citizens isn't so much. Plus come on, you cant compare government causing casualties vs citizens. How many citizens and gang wars are larger scale and happen more often then wars? Come on man."

You may have to reword this part, I don't follow, the statements seem incoherent, I could be wrong, I did smoke a bud a while ago.

Applesauce

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

All those reasons are recreational no actual beneficial reason, however it is a reason that you and many people still enjoy so i do take that into consideration. So yes thank you for providing that reason.
But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

All those reasons are recreational no actual beneficial reason, however it is a reason that you and many people still enjoy so i do take that into consideration. So yes thank you for providing that reason.
But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?

how is protection recreational and not beneficial?  There's no constitutional right to weed and cocaine.  So we should make all dangerous things that are for fun illegal?  Why would bring up illegal ownership of guns?  You are kind of all over the place here.  You have yet to make and coherent case for making guns illegal.  Have you read much about the Second Amendment?  How and why it exists, the legals cases that have been litigated over it etc?  You are making very simplistic statements to something far more complex.
What would making guns illegal look like? 
How would you get rid of them and what would you to do those who don't comply?
Are you aware of the police protests over the people they have killed?
How do you explain the states with very lax gun laws and very low murder rates?

54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/
Breaking down the most dangerous counties in Figure 2 shows over half the murders occur in just 2% of the counties, 37% in just the worst 1% of the counties.

so over half of the counties in all of the U.S. had no murders, if guns are the problem how can that be possible?  The number of guns is going up but murders are going down, doesn't seem logical does it.

When you look at individual counties with a high number of murders, you find large areas with few murders. Take Los Angeles County, with 526 murders in 2014, the most of any county in the US. The county has virtually no murders in the northwestern part of the county. There was only one murder each in Beverly Hills, Hawthorne, and Van Nuys. Clearly, different parts of the county face very different risks of murder.

Joeseph

@Applesauce

Remarkably you  print off a list that's truly staggering with the amount of deaths on it and you're delighted that there is a slight decline in the rates , incidentally i dispute that 

You claimed yesterday New York has achieved startling reductions through good policing so your theory's seems to be that police should waste time and resources stoping people with guns from comitting crime , now sorry my friend that's just insane.

The figures for New York are fabricated as i proved , in my country zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it .

Even our police don't  carry guns .

Americans seem to take pride in the fact that they have the highest rate of mass shootings in the world children getting shot at school and it’s not a problem , what sort of a sick society needs security guards at school and actually thinks arming teachers is a “ brilliant strategy “? 

Here is the rest of the Wiki list you left out Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[2][3]and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4]505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

In 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[6] In 2012, 64% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides.[7] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[8] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[9]

Firearms were used to kill 13,286 people in the U.S. in 2015, excluding suicide.[10] Approximately 1.4 million people have been killed using firearms in the U.S. between 1968 and 2011. This number includes all deaths resulting from a firearm, including suicides, homicides, and accidents.[10]

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher.[11] Although it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the U.S. had 82 percent of all gun deaths, 90 percent of all women killed with guns, 91 percent of children under 14 and 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed with guns.[11]

Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult males.[12][13]Although mass shootings have been covered extensively in the media, mass shootings in the US account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths[14] and the frequency of these events steadily declined between 1994 and 2007, rising between 2007 and 2013.[15][16]

Legislation at the federal, state, and local levels has attempted to address gun violence through a variety of methods, including restricting firearms purchases by youths and other "at-risk" populations, setting waiting periods for firearm purchases, establishing gun buyback programs, law enforcement and policing strategies, stiff sentencing of gun law violators, education programs for parents and children, and community-outreach programs. Despite widespread concern about the impacts of gun violence on public health, Congress has prohibited the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) from conducting research that advocates in favor of gun control.[17] The CDC has interpreted this ban to extend to all research on gun violence prevention, and so has not funded any research on this subject since 1996.[18]

What a

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

All those reasons are recreational no actual beneficial reason, however it is a reason that you and many people still enjoy so i do take that into consideration. So yes thank you for providing that reason.
But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?

how is protection recreational and not beneficial?  There's no constitutional right to weed and cocaine.  So we should make all dangerous things that are for fun illegal?  Why would bring up illegal ownership of guns?  You are kind of all over the place here.  You have yet to make and coherent case for making guns illegal.  Have you read much about the Second Amendment?  How and why it exists, the legals cases that have been litigated over it etc?  You are making very simplistic statements to something far more complex.
What would making guns illegal look like? 
How would you get rid of them and what would you to do those who don't comply?
Are you aware of the police protests over the people they have killed?
How do you explain the states with very lax gun laws and very low murder rates?

54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/
Breaking down the most dangerous counties in Figure 2 shows over half the murders occur in just 2% of the counties, 37% in just the worst 1% of the counties.

so over half of the counties in all of the U.S. had no murders, if guns are the problem how can that be possible?  The number of guns is going up but murders are going down, doesn't seem logical does it.

When you look at individual counties with a high number of murders, you find large areas with few murders. Take Los Angeles County, with 526 murders in 2014, the most of any county in the US. The county has virtually no murders in the northwestern part of the county. There was only one murder each in Beverly Hills, Hawthorne, and Van Nuys. Clearly, different parts of the county face very different risks of murder.

Nonono listen, you are saying guns are fun, and people enjoy collecting them so make it legal. Im saying if thats the case may as well legalize all other dangerous things to show to you how absurd that sounds. I am not saying they should actually be legal lol. As for protection, the bottom line is, we don't all need to carry guns to be protected. If you don't have faith in our police department I think that is a bigger issue. The reason i'm making simple arguments is because look at how the world is performing today while guns are totally legal. That debunks all your arguments straight up. States that have "very lax gun laws" are not strict enough and there needs to be a nationwide effect instead of just state laws.

So look I proposed a solution and you totally ignored it. If you think us owning guns is not a problem at all, what do you think we should do to reduce gun related incidents? Don't bring up the NYC solution because the reason why stop and frisk doesn't and can't exist today is because it caused racial profiling. More black individuals were searched than there were black people in the city. 

To me, its more than just crime. I don't feel comfortable seeing people casually walking into Walmart with 2 guns strapped to them. Makes the US look like a F***ing joke. Are people so insecure that they need to carry guns everywhere they go? Or even in their house. Buy a better security system. Can't afford it? Get a job and move to a city/neighborhood where you are safe. 

Erfisflat

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

All those reasons are recreational no actual beneficial reason, however it is a reason that you and many people still enjoy so i do take that into consideration. So yes thank you for providing that reason.
But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?

how is protection recreational and not beneficial?  There's no constitutional right to weed and cocaine.  So we should make all dangerous things that are for fun illegal?  Why would bring up illegal ownership of guns?  You are kind of all over the place here.  You have yet to make and coherent case for making guns illegal.  Have you read much about the Second Amendment?  How and why it exists, the legals cases that have been litigated over it etc?  You are making very simplistic statements to something far more complex.
What would making guns illegal look like? 
How would you get rid of them and what would you to do those who don't comply?
Are you aware of the police protests over the people they have killed?
How do you explain the states with very lax gun laws and very low murder rates?

54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/
Breaking down the most dangerous counties in Figure 2 shows over half the murders occur in just 2% of the counties, 37% in just the worst 1% of the counties.

so over half of the counties in all of the U.S. had no murders, if guns are the problem how can that be possible?  The number of guns is going up but murders are going down, doesn't seem logical does it.

When you look at individual counties with a high number of murders, you find large areas with few murders. Take Los Angeles County, with 526 murders in 2014, the most of any county in the US. The county has virtually no murders in the northwestern part of the county. There was only one murder each in Beverly Hills, Hawthorne, and Van Nuys. Clearly, different parts of the county face very different risks of murder.

Nonono listen, you are saying guns are fun, and people enjoy collecting them so make it legal. Im saying if thats the case may as well legalize all other dangerous things to show to you how absurd that sounds. I am not saying they should actually be legal lol. As for protection, the bottom line is, we don't all need to carry guns to be protected. If you don't have faith in our police department I think that is a bigger issue. The reason i'm making simple arguments is because look at how the world is performing today while guns are totally legal. That debunks all your arguments straight up. States that have "very lax gun laws" are not strict enough and there needs to be a nationwide effect instead of just state laws.

So look I proposed a solution and you totally ignored it. If you think us owning guns is not a problem at all, what do you think we should do to reduce gun related incidents? Don't bring up the NYC solution because the reason why stop and frisk doesn't and can't exist today is because it caused racial profiling. More black individuals were searched than there were black people in the city. 

To me, its more than just crime. I don't feel comfortable seeing people casually walking into Walmart with 2 guns strapped to them. Makes the US look like a F***ing joke. Are people so insecure that they need to carry guns everywhere they go? Or even in their house. Buy a better security system. Can't afford it? Get a job and move to a city/neighborhood where you are safe. 

For your first point, cannabis is not dangerous, the USGS actually admits that it cures cancer, and besides, why not legalize these things, as long as you aren't harming anyone else? But I digress.

Secondly, why should I have to depend on the boys in blue to defend me? What happens if the boys in blue are turned against me, which is a valid point you still have not adressed from above? At my house, we have a dog, and a shotgun. If someone is breaking in my house or trying to harm my family, the 10-15 minutes we have to wait for the boys in blue to show up could mean the life of my 2 week old daughter. 

To you, a man with two guns may look like a joke, but to a criminal, he's not one to be f_cked with... Guaranteed if a mass shooter was in Walmart, he'd think twice about opening fire if he saw the man with two pistols on his side first.

Applesauce

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Applesauce

@Erfisflat

they are just going to ignore the facts presented to them, that has been the case all a long.  They ignore and can't explain why one of the states that has the loosest laws has the lowest murder rate, while the state with very strict laws has the most murder rates.  I'm pretty much done with this, they can't dispute anything I have said, they don't even try, they just regurgitate the same stuff and express their feelings boohoo.  By there logic because so many people are killed by car accidents, cars should be banned and everyone should be forced to take public transit.  Yes we should do more to combat crime and we can.  Like enforce laws and not give bail to people running terrorist camps in Texas.

this site was good for a short while but given the level of discourse, the inability and no attempt to address my points, challenges and proof just isn't worth my time.  I'll probably go back to debateart.com  at least there if someone thinks I am wrong they will try to explain it rather than telling me about their feelings and reposting the same crap I've already torn apart.  These A.D.D. keyboard warriors have short and limited entertainment value.

Applesauce

@Applesauce

What is an acceptable number of murders, if I can reduce the number of murders by around 2/3rds to 4100, would that be acceptable?

Applesauce

@Joeseph said " in my country zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it ."

which country to you live in?

CYDdharta

beckysmith said:

The proof is in front of all of us. Look at Japan, Australia, UK and convince me that the reason why they are safer than the US is not because of their gun laws and unavailability to guns. Also, what other country needs to fear that their child might be shot and killed at school. I hope you feel where my anger is coming from. I don't think a logical solution is to arm our teachers and arm more people to increase safety. This is a cold war like ideology that is outrageous to me. This is my opinion. I am open-minded to your thoughts on this.

You can't accurately compare stats from different countries because different countries have different requirements and different reporting methods for crimes.  The UK, for example doesn't count a murder as a murder unless someone is convicted.  If a person in the UK is shot to death in full view of a camera, he isn't officially murdered, not until someone is convicted of that crime.  If no one is ever convicted, that murder is never counted in the crime stats.  The US, of course, adds suspected murders to the stats right away.  Then again, the UK also has a history of falsifying, or fiddling, their crime stats to make themselves look better.

beckysmith

Erfisflat said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason.  Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.  

"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "

is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?

All those reasons are recreational no actual beneficial reason, however it is a reason that you and many people still enjoy so i do take that into consideration. So yes thank you for providing that reason.
But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?

how is protection recreational and not beneficial?  There's no constitutional right to weed and cocaine.  So we should make all dangerous things that are for fun illegal?  Why would bring up illegal ownership of guns?  You are kind of all over the place here.  You have yet to make and coherent case for making guns illegal.  Have you read much about the Second Amendment?  How and why it exists, the legals cases that have been litigated over it etc?  You are making very simplistic statements to something far more complex.
What would making guns illegal look like? 
How would you get rid of them and what would you to do those who don't comply?
Are you aware of the police protests over the people they have killed?
How do you explain the states with very lax gun laws and very low murder rates?

54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/
Breaking down the most dangerous counties in Figure 2 shows over half the murders occur in just 2% of the counties, 37% in just the worst 1% of the counties.

so over half of the counties in all of the U.S. had no murders, if guns are the problem how can that be possible?  The number of guns is going up but murders are going down, doesn't seem logical does it.

When you look at individual counties with a high number of murders, you find large areas with few murders. Take Los Angeles County, with 526 murders in 2014, the most of any county in the US. The county has virtually no murders in the northwestern part of the county. There was only one murder each in Beverly Hills, Hawthorne, and Van Nuys. Clearly, different parts of the county face very different risks of murder.

Nonono listen, you are saying guns are fun, and people enjoy collecting them so make it legal. Im saying if thats the case may as well legalize all other dangerous things to show to you how absurd that sounds. I am not saying they should actually be legal lol. As for protection, the bottom line is, we don't all need to carry guns to be protected. If you don't have faith in our police department I think that is a bigger issue. The reason i'm making simple arguments is because look at how the world is performing today while guns are totally legal. That debunks all your arguments straight up. States that have "very lax gun laws" are not strict enough and there needs to be a nationwide effect instead of just state laws.

So look I proposed a solution and you totally ignored it. If you think us owning guns is not a problem at all, what do you think we should do to reduce gun related incidents? Don't bring up the NYC solution because the reason why stop and frisk doesn't and can't exist today is because it caused racial profiling. More black individuals were searched than there were black people in the city. 

To me, its more than just crime. I don't feel comfortable seeing people casually walking into Walmart with 2 guns strapped to them. Makes the US look like a F***ing joke. Are people so insecure that they need to carry guns everywhere they go? Or even in their house. Buy a better security system. Can't afford it? Get a job and move to a city/neighborhood where you are safe. 

For your first point, cannabis is not dangerous, the USGS actually admits that it cures cancer, and besides, why not legalize these things, as long as you aren't harming anyone else? But I digress.

Secondly, why should I have to depend on the boys in blue to defend me? What happens if the boys in blue are turned against me, which is a valid point you still have not adressed from above? At my house, we have a dog, and a shotgun. If someone is breaking in my house or trying to harm my family, the 10-15 minutes we have to wait for the boys in blue to show up could mean the life of my 2 week old daughter. 

To you, a man with two guns may look like a joke, but to a criminal, he's not one to be f_cked with... Guaranteed if a mass shooter was in Walmart, he'd think twice about opening fire if he saw the man with two pistols on his side first.

1. I use cannabis so don't worry, i was trying to emphasize on actual other dangerous things.

2. If you can afford a gun and ammo, you can afford a better security system. No need for the gun. Am i wrong?

beckysmith

CYDdharta said:

beckysmith said:

The proof is in front of all of us. Look at Japan, Australia, UK and convince me that the reason why they are safer than the US is not because of their gun laws and unavailability to guns. Also, what other country needs to fear that their child might be shot and killed at school. I hope you feel where my anger is coming from. I don't think a logical solution is to arm our teachers and arm more people to increase safety. This is a cold war like ideology that is outrageous to me. This is my opinion. I am open-minded to your thoughts on this.

You can't accurately compare stats from different countries because different countries have different requirements and different reporting methods for crimes.  The UK, for example doesn't count a murder as a murder unless someone is convicted.  If a person in the UK is shot to death in full view of a camera, he isn't officially murdered, not until someone is convicted of that crime.  If no one is ever convicted, that murder is never counted in the crime stats.  The US, of course, adds suspected murders to the stats right away.  Then again, the UK also has a history of falsifying, or fiddling, their crime stats to make themselves look better.

You don't think the States don't hide statistics? Tell me then, if banning guns isn't the solution, then what is? Becuase it sure as hell isn't going to work if we keep up whatever we're doing right now. Does it not worry you that you kids or future kids can be shot while in class?

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

CYDdharta

beckysmith said:

You don't think the States don't hide statistics? Tell me then, if banning guns isn't the solution, then what is? Becuase it sure as hell isn't going to work if we keep up whatever we're doing right now. Does it not worry you that you kids or future kids can be shot while in class?

Considering our crime rates have dropped by more than half since the early to mid 90s, why wouldn't we keep doing what we have been doing?  The level of crime Americans currently face hasn't been this low since the late 50s to early 60s.

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

CYDdharta said:

beckysmith said:

The proof is in front of all of us. Look at Japan, Australia, UK and convince me that the reason why they are safer than the US is not because of their gun laws and unavailability to guns. Also, what other country needs to fear that their child might be shot and killed at school. I hope you feel where my anger is coming from. I don't think a logical solution is to arm our teachers and arm more people to increase safety. This is a cold war like ideology that is outrageous to me. This is my opinion. I am open-minded to your thoughts on this.

You can't accurately compare stats from different countries because different countries have different requirements and different reporting methods for crimes.  The UK, for example doesn't count a murder as a murder unless someone is convicted.  If a person in the UK is shot to death in full view of a camera, he isn't officially murdered, not until someone is convicted of that crime.  If no one is ever convicted, that murder is never counted in the crime stats.  The US, of course, adds suspected murders to the stats right away.  Then again, the UK also has a history of falsifying, or fiddling, their crime stats to make themselves look better.

You don't think the States don't hide statistics? Tell me then, if banning guns isn't the solution, then what is? Becuase it sure as hell isn't going to work if we keep up whatever we're doing right now. Does it not worry you that you kids or future kids can be shot while in class?

that's now how this site works actually.  the topic of the debate is that guns should be illegal in the U.S. you have to prove that if you agree with it,  No one has to prove that they should be legal, because they already are.  If you would like to discuss different ideas for reducing murder that would be a different topic and would need it's own thread.  If you'd like to make one I have several ideas i'd be happy to share with you, but that's not really appropriate in this thread.
Stats show trends that's really about all you can say about them in this context, because they can be manipulated and can be affected by many factors not directly related, known and unknow.

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

2. If you can afford a gun and ammo, you can afford a better security system. No need for the gun. Am i wrong?

yes, you are wrong, how does a security system actually protect you?  How does a security system help you in your car, at the park, out shopping?  It can be a deterrent which is a good thing, but how does it actually protect you?  How do police protect you?  When they are seen they are a deterrent, but don't you call them when a crime happens or after the crime has been committed?

Joeseph

@Applesauce

I’m not playing that game , let’s just say I’m European but with dual citizenship 

Applesauce

Joeseph said:

@Applesauce

I’m not playing that game , let’s just say I’m European but with dual citizenship 

it quite important actually, I want to know where this country exists  that has zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it .
Such a place would be extremely important to examine to see how they have done this.  What a wondrous and Utopian place this must be, why not share this miracle with the rest of us?  I could very well change my whole stance if I can learn how they have made such an epic achievement.

Joeseph

You say ....
Such a place would be extremely important to examine to see how they have done this.  What a wondrous and Utopian place this must be, why not share this miracle with the rest of us? 

My reply .... So you admit a gun free society and one free of gun crime is miraculous and Utopian , yet you keep stating its not a problem ? 

Ouch , you’ve just admitted how dysfunctional America is 


**

 I could very well change my whole stance if I can learn how they have made such an epic achievement.**

No you couldn’t as you deny such society’s can even exist 

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

2. If you can afford a gun and ammo, you can afford a better security system. No need for the gun. Am i wrong?

yes, you are wrong, how does a security system actually protect you?  How does a security system help you in your car, at the park, out shopping?  It can be a deterrent which is a good thing, but how does it actually protect you?  How do police protect you?  When they are seen they are a deterrent, but don't you call them until a crime hapens or after the crime has been committed?

If you're so paranoid of being robbed buy one of these cars instead of a gun. Home invasion on the other hand... Just look at this.  
You might as well be more scared of a meteor falling from the sky and hitting you. But if you are still paranoid, there are many home security systems where an alarm is sounded as soon as a breach occurs, and there is much more advanced systems you could get for more money and more security which i don't need to get into detail. Police aren't the only safety precautions which frankly i'm a bit surprised you don't trust them. But I understand.

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Okay my fault, but why did you even bring that up as an argument then lol. As to why i'm not providing statistics, Joseph has provided plenty, I don't need to waste my time to show the same data. Which by the way, you failed to counter his arguments so i'm guessing it had quite an effect on your opinion. 

My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?

Applesauce

Joeseph said:

You say ....
Such a place would be extremely important to examine to see how they have done this.  What a wondrous and Utopian place this must be, why not share this miracle with the rest of us? 

My reply .... So you admit a gun free society and one free of gun crime is miraculous and Utopian , yet you keep stating its not a problem ? 

Ouch , you’ve just admitted how dysfunctional America is 


**

 I could very well change my whole stance if I can learn how they have made such an epic achievement.**

No you couldn’t as you deny such society’s can even exist 

you claim to live in one, but won't tell us where it is 

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Okay my fault, but why did you even bring that up as an argument then lol. As to why i'm not providing statistics, Joseph has provided plenty, I don't need to waste my time to show the same data. Which by the way, you failed to counter his arguments so i'm guessing it had quite an effect on your opinion. 

My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?

I destroyed his arguments LOL if you would like to point to a specific post of his you thought was so great I can address it again, but keep in mind I am only addressing things that are relevant to the topic (Should the U.S. make owning guns illegal?)
Talking about a solution is a different topic all together, I've already explained this to you, please make a thread about it and we can have a nice fruitful conversation about it i think.  In this particular thread and topic the burden of proof lyes on those who believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal.  I'd very much enjoy discussing possible ways murder can be reduced, but that requires it's own thread, this one is becoming hijacked as they say.
I believe there are many things the U.S. can and should have done long ago to combat the crime/murder rate, but alas that's a different subject.

Joeseph

@Applesauce

But you claim that any country without gun crime is Utopia yet you say there’s no  problem in the US with guns or gun accidents , crimes or suicides , so you admit it it guns should  be banned in the US as you did say countries without gun crimes are Utopia or are you denying this now ? 

Joeseph

@Applesauce

You keep saying you destroyed my arguments , but haven’t because you cannot .

You admit countries without gun deaths , accidents and suicides are “ Utopian “ bit of a Freudian slip there on your part or do you wish to deny you stated this as well ?

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Okay my fault, but why did you even bring that up as an argument then lol. As to why i'm not providing statistics, Joseph has provided plenty, I don't need to waste my time to show the same data. Which by the way, you failed to counter his arguments so i'm guessing it had quite an effect on your opinion. 

My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?

I destroyed his arguments LOL if you would like to point to a specific post of his you thought was so great I can address it again, but keep in mind I am only addressing things that are relevant to the topic (Should the U.S. make owning guns illegal?)
Talking about a solution is a different topic all together, I've already explained this to you, please make a thread about it and we can have a nice fruitful conversation about it i think.  In this particular thread and topic the burden of proof lyes on those who believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal.  I'd very much enjoy discussing possible ways murder can be reduced, but that requires it's own thread, this one is becoming hijacked as they say.
I believe there are many things the U.S. can and should have done long ago to combat the crime/murder rate, but alas that's a different subject.

Yea i disagree. I believe that Joseph provided some fairly strong statistics earlier. But again, I don't feel this argument going anywhere so we can agree to disagree. I would like to hear of your suggestions to combating gun violence though. Maybe I will create a thread later.

Applesauce

Joeseph said:

@Applesauce

You keep saying you destroyed my arguments , but haven’t because you cannot .

You admit countries without gun deaths , accidents and suicides are “ Utopian “ bit of a Freudian slip there on your part or do you wish to deny you stated this as well ?

I will gladly admit it when you tell me about one, I've said that twice now.  Why do you have such difficultly understanding what I say?  How can I help you understand what I write?  What can I do to make it easier for you?

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Okay my fault, but why did you even bring that up as an argument then lol. As to why i'm not providing statistics, Joseph has provided plenty, I don't need to waste my time to show the same data. Which by the way, you failed to counter his arguments so i'm guessing it had quite an effect on your opinion. 

My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?

I destroyed his arguments LOL if you would like to point to a specific post of his you thought was so great I can address it again, but keep in mind I am only addressing things that are relevant to the topic (Should the U.S. make owning guns illegal?)
Talking about a solution is a different topic all together, I've already explained this to you, please make a thread about it and we can have a nice fruitful conversation about it i think.  In this particular thread and topic the burden of proof lyes on those who believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal.  I'd very much enjoy discussing possible ways murder can be reduced, but that requires it's own thread, this one is becoming hijacked as they say.
I believe there are many things the U.S. can and should have done long ago to combat the crime/murder rate, but alas that's a different subject.

Yea i disagree. I believe that Joseph provided some fairly strong statistics earlier. But again, I don't feel this argument going anywhere so we can agree to disagree. I would like to hear of your suggestions to combating gun violence though. Maybe I will create a thread later.

when you use words that "you believe' and that "you feel" that doesn't leave room from discussion because I can't tell you how to feel.  You won't point to a single fact that you think is strong so I can address it accordingly so this doesn't go anywhere.  I have given you plenty of questions and facts, you give me feelings, that doesn't work on a site like this.  I specifically said we could discuss murder and you have changed it to combating gun violence, why did you do that?  I am willing to have an honest discussion but that requires not changing the subject or moving the goal posts as they say.

Applesauce

Joeseph said:

@Applesauce

But you claim that any country without gun crime is Utopia yet you say there’s no  problem in the US with guns or gun accidents , crimes or suicides , so you admit it it guns should  be banned in the US as you did say countries without gun crimes are Utopia or are you denying this now ? 

cite where I said there's no problem in the U.S. from your list?  why do you continue to lie about me?
Provide me a country that has no guns and no murders (3rd time I've asked)
@Joeseph said " in my country zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it ."
if you can't prove it then you are wrong and it's not true plain and simple, you made that statement and I'm calling b.s. on it.

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith

yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting

correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written.  I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts.  You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.?  Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.

Oh come on, what year do you think were living in? ahaha Hunting with a gun is not the only way to provide food for your family. Frankly, you do not care what I have to say, and you are too ignorant to acknowledge my point of view, so lets agree to disagree. The next time you watch the news and you hear of a school shooting or a mass shooting with military grade guns, I hope you're still happy with what you stand for.

who said it was the only way?  I said it is a way.  You are selectively ignoring, I'm just ignoring feelings as they have no relevance.  You won't answer questions or challenges yet demand I care what you say.  I've asked you questions to clarify and better understand your point of view but you don't answer them.  Are you here to just preach or are you really interested in conversation?
I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing.  If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid.  At least Joseph tried to show some proof.

Okay my fault, but why did you even bring that up as an argument then lol. As to why i'm not providing statistics, Joseph has provided plenty, I don't need to waste my time to show the same data. Which by the way, you failed to counter his arguments so i'm guessing it had quite an effect on your opinion. 

My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?

I destroyed his arguments LOL if you would like to point to a specific post of his you thought was so great I can address it again, but keep in mind I am only addressing things that are relevant to the topic (Should the U.S. make owning guns illegal?)
Talking about a solution is a different topic all together, I've already explained this to you, please make a thread about it and we can have a nice fruitful conversation about it i think.  In this particular thread and topic the burden of proof lyes on those who believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal.  I'd very much enjoy discussing possible ways murder can be reduced, but that requires it's own thread, this one is becoming hijacked as they say.
I believe there are many things the U.S. can and should have done long ago to combat the crime/murder rate, but alas that's a different subject.

Yea i disagree. I believe that Joseph provided some fairly strong statistics earlier. But again, I don't feel this argument going anywhere so we can agree to disagree. I would like to hear of your suggestions to combating gun violence though. Maybe I will create a thread later.

when you use words that "you believe' and that "you feel" that doesn't leave room from discussion because I can't tell you how to feel.  You won't point to a single fact that you think is strong so I can address it accordingly so this doesn't go anywhere.  I have given you plenty of questions and facts, you give me feelings, that doesn't work on a site like this.  I specifically said we could discuss murder and you have changed it to combating gun violence, why did you do that?  I am willing to have an honest discussion but that requires not changing the subject or moving the goal posts as they say.


My bad, maybe I shouldn't have used phrases like "i believe" and "i feel". You are definitely misinterpreting my statements. And it was never about murder, lol it was always about gun violence. Isn't the topic of this question. 

"Should The U.S. Make Owning Guns Illegal?"

However, gun violence ties into murder. And how am I giving you nothing but feelings? That shows that you have not been reading through my comments.

Applesauce

@beckysmith
very well, even though you have not once answered any question I have asked of you, or addressed any challenge or point I poised to you, I shall go back and read all your posts
first post of your was on Aug 23  I shall paraphrase to make it manageable, if you believe I have taken what you said out of context lmk and I'll address it.
1 you believe banning guns out weighs any negatives and is for the greater good, you mention other countries and then talk about teachers.
2 next post is you talk about other countries again, you ask me to convince you, though the burden is not mine to do so, then you tell me how you feel angry and bring up schools again
3 you explain why you use teachers and talk about big business
4 you admit that NYC had some success but were doubtful it could work else where. you ask me to justify having a gun, again the burden is not mine
5 you attempt to force me to justify again, you feel I'm selfish,  still not my burden
6 you ask if there are alternative solutions
7 talk about drugs and, see no reason guns should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun
8 this is an ask for justification again, and more feelings
9 security system instead of a gun
10 an ask for alternative solution
11 emotional post
12 very cool truck I wish I could afford, security,  some stats on odds of being robbed
13 claim that Joseph has done all the work so nothing more can be added, an ask again for alternative solutions
14 asking for alternatives

I have explained this several times.  If you believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal then you must prove it.  I don't have to justify or offer any alternatives.  If you are making that claim then you are trying to change what is legal and if you are going to make or support such a claim you must have proof to back that up.  Of all your posts you have not done so, you've expressed your feelings and touched on some things tangent or irrelevant to the issue.  I have listened to you, you haven't really said anything.  Not once have you answered a question I have asked you.  Not once have you provided context or proof of your claims.  Yet you accuse me of not listening to you.......hhmmm want to rethink that?

beckysmith

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith
very well, even though you have not once answered any question I have asked of you, or addressed any challenge or point I poised to you, I shall go back and read all your posts
first post of your was on Aug 23  I shall paraphrase to make it manageable, if you believe I have taken what you said out of context lmk and I'll address it.
1 you believe banning guns out weighs any negatives and is for the greater good, you mention other countries and then talk about teachers.
2 next post is you talk about other countries again, you ask me to convince you, though the burden is not mine to do so, then you tell me how you feel angry and bring up schools again
3 you explain why you use teachers and talk about big business
4 you admit that NYC had some success but were doubtful it could work else where. you ask me to justify having a gun, again the burden is not mine
5 you attempt to force me to justify again, you feel I'm selfish,  still not my burden
6 you ask if there are alternative solutions
7 talk about drugs and, see no reason guns should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun
8 this is an ask for justification again, and more feelings
9 security system instead of a gun
10 an ask for alternative solution
11 emotional post
12 very cool truck I wish I could afford, security,  some stats on odds of being robbed
13 claim that Joseph has done all the work so nothing more can be added, an ask again for alternative solutions
14 asking for alternatives

I have explained this several times.  If you believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal then you must prove it.  I don't have to justify or offer any alternatives.  If you are making that claim then you are trying to change what is legal and if you are going to make or support such a claim you must have proof to back that up.  Of all your posts you have not done so, you've expressed your feelings and touched on some things tangent or irrelevant to the issue.  I have listened to you, you haven't really said anything.  Not once have you answered a question I have asked you.  Not once have you provided context or proof of your claims.  Yet you accuse me of not listening to you.......hhmmm want to rethink that?


hahaha good job at down  playing my comments. 

Fine, the 'proof' for the reason i want guns banned is because this year alone, there were 18,398 injuries from guns, 446 children aged 0-11 were killed or injured by a gun, 1,090 UNINTENTIONAL shootings, 231 mass shootings in this year alone and the year is about half over. That is my "proof"

Vaulk

You know, for the sake of being open minded during the debate...I'd be willing to concede that a total Gun ban could be acceptable and a great thing...on the grounds that we first address the issue of what's going to happen when all the Criminals still have guns after the law abiding citizens turn theirs in for destruction or whatever's going to happen to them.  

The latest figures put the total number of Law Enforcement Officers in the U.S. at 421, 459 while the total population of the U.S. is somewhere around 325.7 Million people.  So that's about one police officer for every 772 U.S. Citizens.  Average U.S. police response time is Seven minutes but can be higher depending on your location as well as other factors.  So assuming that we're talking about the result of all Citizens being defenseless against a Criminal armed with a Gun...what do we do against an armed Criminal wielding a Firearm when we have none ourselves and our protectors are an average of seven minutes out?  Adding to the fact that most violent Crimes committed with a firearm are within low income areas (Poor) then we also have to account for the fact that the people that will be the most heavily affected by the Gun ban will be the poor...what do we do about that?

So I'm ready, I'll accept any and all arguments within logic and rationale standards that at least in theory would solve the issue of the resulting void created by a Gun Ban, the void being Criminals still have guns but Citizens are left without any.  In return I'll concede that a Gun Ban would be awesome and effective.

Joeseph

@Applesauce

You say .......I will gladly admit it when you tell me about one,

My reply ..........No you won't you will totally deny it as you do with all stats as you and your fellow gun nuts claim all comparisons are "unfair "

 You say .........I've said that twice now.  Why do you have such difficultly understanding what I say?

My reply ............,Oh belive me I understand perfectly what you've said but you know this as you totally ignore anything that doesn't fit your NRA mindset


You say ......  

How can I help you understand what I write? 

My reply .......... But you don't even know what you're saying half the time as simple concepts and ideas baffle you as in you think spoons should be banned if guns are banned as Americans may murder , maim and threaten each other with .............Dessert spoons 


You say .......

What can I do to make it easier for you?

My reply ........It's yourself you need to make things easiier for I can only correct you ,your failure to comprehend is hardly my fault as I cannot uderstand for you that's something you have to do for yourself 

beckysmith

Vaulk said:

You know, for the sake of being open minded during the debate...I'd be willing to concede that a total Gun ban could be acceptable and a great thing...on the grounds that we first address the issue of what's going to happen when all the Criminals still have guns after the law abiding citizens turn theirs in for destruction or whatever's going to happen to them.  

The latest figures put the total number of Law Enforcement Officers in the U.S. at 421, 459 while the total population of the U.S. is somewhere around 325.7 Million people.  So that's about one police officer for every 772 U.S. Citizens.  Average U.S. police response time is Seven minutes but can be higher depending on your location as well as other factors.  So assuming that we're talking about the result of all Citizens being defenseless against a Criminal armed with a Gun...what do we do against an armed Criminal wielding a Firearm when we have none ourselves and our protectors are an average of seven minutes out?  Adding to the fact that most violent Crimes committed with a firearm are within low income areas (Poor) then we also have to account for the fact that the people that will be the most heavily affected by the Gun ban will be the poor...what do we do about that?

So I'm ready, I'll accept any and all arguments within logic and rationale standards that at least in theory would solve the issue of the resulting void created by a Gun Ban, the void being Criminals still have guns but Citizens are left without any.  In return I'll concede that a Gun Ban would be awesome and effective.

That is a good point about the poor being the most affected. I would assume that if a gun ban were to happen, there would need to be at least a temporary increase in employment and working hours for police officers. Another possibility could also be to take into effect the stop and frisk for a year or so until illegal gun ownership per capita has decreased significantly. 

Applesauce

beckysmith said:

Applesauce said:

@beckysmith
very well, even though you have not once answered any question I have asked of you, or addressed any challenge or point I poised to you, I shall go back and read all your posts
first post of your was on Aug 23  I shall paraphrase to make it manageable, if you believe I have taken what you said out of context lmk and I'll address it.
1 you believe banning guns out weighs any negatives and is for the greater good, you mention other countries and then talk about teachers.
2 next post is you talk about other countries again, you ask me to convince you, though the burden is not mine to do so, then you tell me how you feel angry and bring up schools again
3 you explain why you use teachers and talk about big business
4 you admit that NYC had some success but were doubtful it could work else where. you ask me to justify having a gun, again the burden is not mine
5 you attempt to force me to justify again, you feel I'm selfish,  still not my burden
6 you ask if there are alternative solutions
7 talk about drugs and, see no reason guns should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun
8 this is an ask for justification again, and more feelings
9 security system instead of a gun
10 an ask for alternative solution
11 emotional post
12 very cool truck I wish I could afford, security,  some stats on odds of being robbed
13 claim that Joseph has done all the work so nothing more can be added, an ask again for alternative solutions
14 asking for alternatives

I have explained this several times.  If you believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal then you must prove it.  I don't have to justify or offer any alternatives.  If you are making that claim then you are trying to change what is legal and if you are going to make or support such a claim you must have proof to back that up.  Of all your posts you have not done so, you've expressed your feelings and touched on some things tangent or irrelevant to the issue.  I have listened to you, you haven't really said anything.  Not once have you answered a question I have asked you.  Not once have you provided context or proof of your claims.  Yet you accuse me of not listening to you.......hhmmm want to rethink that?


hahaha good job at down  playing my comments. 

Fine, the 'proof' for the reason i want guns banned is because this year alone, there were 18,398 injuries from guns, 446 children aged 0-11 were killed or injured by a gun, 1,090 UNINTENTIONAL shootings, 231 mass shootings in this year alone and the year is about half over. That is my "proof"

that's not proof that a ban would work.  how you would implement it and enforce it.
in other words you feel the ban should be done because of the numbers your presented.  saying I want is the same as I feel.

Applesauce

@Vaulk

since 3d guns will be even easier and better soon, anyone with a machine shop can make one, police and military "loose" or have their weapons stolen, what then?  a quick search on youtube or google and you can learn all sorts of different construction methods.  With that said, are current laws and penalties adequately enforced?  We have a pretty good idea of why murders happen, do you think those "reasons" are being addressed adequately?  Gun murders account for about 64% of over all murders, that means there's still a lot of murders happening.  I can't wrap my mind around why anyone would care how someone is murdered, in the end a murdered person is dead regardless of the methods.  If the reason is addressed and people don't want to murder wouldn't that be better?  Removing guns could reduce the portion of murders caused by them, but it won't reduce it to zero as those w/o a gun would just choose a different method.  So the over all number would still be pretty high.  Removing guns does nothing to address people's desire to kill others or themselves.  If you remove or minimize that desire the problem solves itself and would increase over all happiness.  Stopping someone from committing suicide is fine and all, but they are still dealing with feelings and we've essentially done nothing to actually help that person, we've just remove one way for them to kill themselves. 

CYDdharta

Applesauce said:

@Vaulk

since 3d guns will be even easier and better soon, anyone with a machine shop can make one, police and military "loose" or have their weapons stolen, what then?  a quick search on youtube or google and you can learn all sorts of different construction methods.  With that said, are current laws and penalties adequately enforced?  We have a pretty good idea of why murders happen, do you think those "reasons" are being addressed adequately?  Gun murders account for about 64% of over all murders, that means there's still a lot of murders happening.  I can't wrap my mind around why anyone would care how someone is murdered, in the end a murdered person is dead regardless of the methods.  If the reason is addressed and people don't want to murder wouldn't that be better?  Removing guns could reduce the portion of murders caused by them, but it won't reduce it to zero as those w/o a gun would just choose a different method.  So the over all number would still be pretty high.  Removing guns does nothing to address people's desire to kill others or themselves.  If you remove or minimize that desire the problem solves itself and would increase over all happiness.  Stopping someone from committing suicide is fine and all, but they are still dealing with feelings and we've essentially done nothing to actually help that person, we've just remove one way for them to kill themselves. 

A note of correction; anyone with a machine shop doesn't need a 3-D printer, they have all the equipment necessary to manufacture a gun already.  In fact, anyone with a half decently stocked garage has all the equipment needed to make a gun.  How much does it really take?  We can't even keep convicts from making guns in prison.  3-D printers mean even MORE people will be able to make their own guns with even less mechanical knowledge.

Applesauce

@CYDdharta

ak 47 receiver videos on youtube, it's just bent sheet metal, very easy, guy cast an ar15 lower from melted beer cans and milled the rest to spec, made a brass one out of melted down shell casings.  Once alternative materials like resins become strong enough it will just be a matter of pouring a mold and waiting, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Vaulk

Yea I'm still not seeing a good solution to the issue of the most impoverished people in the U.S. being drastically over-represented as victims in the Gun ban that would leave all criminals with Guns but all law-abiding citizens without an equalizer.  At this point we're really just spinning a hypothetical.  Illegally owned firearms (Guns that were obtained by breaking the law) are the largest demographic in firearm related crime and in victims of violence by firearm as well...so it would stand to reason that we need to address the issue of Criminals with guns before we begin considering a total ban for law abiding citizens.

I don't pretend to know of a way to get all the guns away from criminals nor do I honestly believe that it's possible to prevent them from getting them.  I do see that there are a number of people here who think the Ban ought to be in place so for those people...what do we do here?  Throw me some ideas.

beckysmith

@Applesauce
 Check the news, realize that people like you wanting guns for "fun" are the reason stuff like this is happening in Jacksonville.

Joeseph

@Vaulk

Its always interesting to hear Americans worrying about criminals having guns and why it worries them so much,  a lot of European countries do not permit their citizens to carry guns yet criminals have them illegally and use them mainly on other criminals , do you assume criminals are going to start targeting the ordinary Joe if guns were illegal ?

I think the whole gun argument is cultural Europeans cannot comprehend the reasoning behind Americans constant denial of a problem with the issue , yet the idea of cirizens carrying guns is terrifying to us 

Applesauce

Vaulk said:

Yea I'm still not seeing a good solution to the issue of the most impoverished people in the U.S. being drastically over-represented as victims in the Gun ban that would leave all criminals with Guns but all law-abiding citizens without an equalizer.  At this point we're really just spinning a hypothetical.  Illegally owned firearms (Guns that were obtained by breaking the law) are the largest demographic in firearm related crime and in victims of violence by firearm as well...so it would stand to reason that we need to address the issue of Criminals with guns before we begin considering a total ban for law abiding citizens.

I don't pretend to know of a way to get all the guns away from criminals nor do I honestly believe that it's possible to prevent them from getting them.  I do see that there are a number of people here who think the Ban ought to be in place so for those people...what do we do here?  Throw me some ideas.

while alternative would be a totally different topic, look up how many people are actually charged and the punishment for possession or attempting to purchase a gun when those people are prohibited from doing so.  Are the current laws effective, consistently and adequately enforced?  If not, why not?  Are violent criminal let out of prison early due to over crowding?  Should non violent criminals be dealt with in a different manner?  This issue is an onion.

Nathaniel_B

No. I can't trust no cops to be there when the time comes, so I stay strapped so when someone come in my house to try and hurt me, they gonna receive a glock round to they leg or arm. Yes there are people who should not have guns, people with mental problems, and violent offenders, but everyone that is fit and that is responsible should be able to have a gun for self-defense. You wanna have a AR-15 to protect yourself? Go ahead, but make sure you know how to shoot it when the time comes, and even in the case of self-defense, while the rounds are deadly, it is not the most conventional. 

MayCaesar

@Nathaniel_B

I have been attacked exactly once in my life, and the police was nowhere to be found. The reality of the world is that you are very unlikely get attacked at the central square with police officers walking around; the criminals are not fools and they will attack people in a dark corner where there is no help to be found. What the police really provides is retaliative tools, as well as saving people from static situations such as being taken a hostage - but police cannot do anything about actually preventing immediate violence.

People like to object to this with the claim that when you are attacked, you do not have time to pull out a weapon anyway. Well, it heavily depends on the situation. If someone sneaks up on you from the back with a gun or a knife, then yes, you cannot do anything. In most cases, however, this is not how violence occurs, and usually there is, at least, some time to react to danger, or to take some precautions in case of potential danger.

In my case, I saw the attack coming and could defend myself if I had a weapon with me.