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Is it in my best interest to stand up for what's right even if it might get me in trouble?
in Philosophy

So I live in Canada, and in our schools we are indoctrinated into topics such as transgenderism and homosexuality. My question is, should I explain to the class why this is wrong, or should I just stay quiet and go along? Let's not debate whether or not these ideas are wrong, I may post another debate about this, let's talk about if it's in my best interest to explain to the class why I believe that this is wrong and debate the idea. And if so, how should I go about it. And if anyone is asking, I'm going into grade 9.
Nathaniel_BMasterofPun



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  • That is sad, and there's probably not much you can do about it. If it were me, I would probably talk to individual class members about how I feel, maybe even make a simple flyer or two to hang around the school. If your class is involved in social media, this is another means of conveying your thoughts on these topics.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • It depends on your priorities. Some people are afraid to voice the non-conformist opinion out of fear to be disliked by random people. Others stand up and call the "supreme leader" on their tyrannic traits, knowing well that tomorrow they will wake up in a labor camp with a lifetime sentence for themselves and all of their family members. How much comfort and safety are you willing to sacrifice in the name of freedom? Only you can answer this question.

    Personally, I was a "bad guy" at school. I grew up in the post-Soviet world, where conformism was the expected way of life, and even the minor dissent was strongly suppressed by extreme ostracism and reprimanding. Did not matter to me much, I was used to be treated like trash by people singing songs about socialism and nationalism, and their bullying only reassured me in my beliefs.

    Seriously, you guys do not realize how lucky you are to live in countries where the free speech is not just an abstract term from a law book, but a widely respected principle. You dislike homosexuality? You can discuss it, you can voice your opinion and talk to people. You like it? All the same. Canada is not Iran, you will not be jailed for challenging the ruling dogma. Does not mean you will not encounter strong resistance and some degree of ostracism - but honestly, high school is the perfect time to learn to think to yourself and to not abide by what the authority tries to force on you, so I would say it is worth the temporary discomfort. It is much harder to rewire your brain when you live in the adult world and when the stakes are high, so every step in the behavioral evolution is slow and painful.
  • @MayCaesar:

    I believe that you could actually be charged in Canada. I read about bill C16 which talks about defending rights of transgender individuals, and it says that you can be charged for any "offense" to a transgender individual. It seems to be a very broad and subjective term, similar to what is talked about in our hate speech laws. I have not looked into any bills that talk about homosexuality but I assume they say similar things regarding this topic. I don't think that I would get charged, but I might get in trouble for what my be considered very offensive views.
  • @Erfisflat:

    Thank you for those ideas. I will consider them in the future. I want to speak out about my feelings about this, because I think that the views I hold are often strawmanned, but I'm not sure how to go about it or if I should. I had a friend who was suspended for a few days from my school for harassment. He got a bunch of different allegations from three different people, one of which he debated about transgenderism to and I believe was part of the reason he got suspended. The person who he debated had a non binary friend which may have added to the reason he should have gotten suspended.
  • *he got suspended.
  • So I live in Canada, and in our schools we are indoctrinated into topics such as transgenderism and homosexuality. My question is, should I explain to the class why this is wrong, or should I just stay quiet and go along? Let's not debate whether or not these ideas are wrong, I may post another debate about this, let's talk about if it's in my best interest to explain to the class why I believe that this is wrong and debate the idea. And if so, how should I go about it. And if anyone is asking, I'm going into grade 9.
    Though I do not agree with you that these ideas, ideas which I'm certainly not an advocate for, are "wrong", I would say that it is better to speak up, and that the best way to do so is in a respectful manner.
    Transgenderism is already a hot-button issue so proposing a contrary claim in a negative manner can seriously harm your goal of convincing people.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal k thx.
  • Nathaniel_BNathaniel_B 176 Pts
    edited August 2018
    Just leave the school (If you can) who said you have to stay? Did you tell your mom and dad already? 
    “Communism is evil. Its driving forces are the deadly sins of envy and hatred.” ~Peter Drucker 

    "It's not a gun control problem, it's a cultural control problem."
    Bob Barr
  • @Nathaniel_B:

    Every school in Canada does this as far as I know, and the school is one of the best in my Province. I had to wait years to get in and I got lucky. Even if it's the only school that does this, my parents would get mad if I told them that I wanted to leave the school just because I disagreed with transgenderism and homosexuality. As far as I know they agree with both of the ideas.
  • DrCerealDrCereal 168 Pts
    edited August 2018
    @MayCaesar:

    I believe that you could actually be charged in Canada. I read about bill C16 which talks about defending rights of transgender individuals, and it says that you can be charged for any "offense" to a transgender individual. It seems to be a very broad and subjective term, similar to what is talked about in our hate speech laws. I have not looked into any bills that talk about homosexuality but I assume they say similar things regarding this topic. I don't think that I would get charged, but I might get in trouble for what my be considered very offensive views.
    Sorry to revive a dead conversation, but I feel it necessary to find out.
    Where in Bill C16 does it say you can be charged for any "offense"? I have just read the bill, and it appears to simply be amending discrimination law, making transgenderism a protected class like other, already protected classes like race and sex.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • Government schools should be abolished as they are premised on state indoctrination and are funded by stealing from the productive.  If there were abolished, this issue goes away.
    DrCerealAgility_Dude
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 239 Pts
    edited August 2018
    @DrCereal Canadians do not enjoy a universal right to freedom of speechSection 319(2) of the Criminal Code of Canada says:Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/canada-laws-crack-down-on-hate-speech/
    2008 paper but stillhttps://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1132&context=lr

    @Agility_Dude
    it depends on what you hope to gain, this is a pros/cons  risk/benefit kind of thing, and that's something only you can decide.  I'm not a revolutionary, I'd get the best education I could and move to the U.S. a.s.a.p.  Canada will only get worse, more restrictive.  
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • @DrCereal Canadians do not enjoy a universal right to freedom of speechSection 319(2) of the Criminal Code of Canada says:Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/canada-laws-crack-down-on-hate-speech/
    2008 paper but stillhttps://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1132&context=lr

    @Agility_Dude
    it depends on what you hope to gain, this is a pros/cons  risk/benefit kind of thing, and that's something only you can decide.  I'm not a revolutionary, I'd get the best education I could and move to the U.S. a.s.a.p.  Canada will only get worse, more restrictive.  
    We do not enjoy a "universal right to freedom of speech" either. There are slander and libel laws the in the U.S.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 239 Pts
    edited August 2018
    @DrCereal

    it's universal in that it applies to everyone in the U.S. yes, there are limits, slander and libel laws you must prove actual damage "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."  The damage is illegal, I can slander you, but if you can't prove any actual damages there's no punishment.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • @DrCereal I read the bill again and saw that it actually doesn't talk about hate speech in any sense. However, there are hate speech laws as Applesauce said that I read in the past that talk about offenses to trans people being illegal.

    @Theocrat I agree 100%. There was this video I watched by Jordan Peterson called "To Junior High, High School Students, and Their Parents" saying very similar things.

    @Applesauce I have been thinking very hard about what I should do but I thought that I need some help thinking about it. My thinking is that if I say the wrong things I could get in big trouble especially considering how my main argument is that trans people have been shown to have suicide rates higher than blacks in black slavery, and Jews in the holocaust. The only similar suicide rate is people with Schizophrenia. I bring this up to show that they partially commit suicide due to their disorder rather than discrimination or else their rates would be much lower than the rates previously mentioned. So why are we cheering them on when they have this horrible mental disorder instead of researching how to cure them?

    If I mention this argument (which I probably would) things could get out of hand very quickly and turn into an ad hominem festival with my classmates against me. I have considered moving to the USA when I grow older because I believe that it is superior to Canada, but my parents are ironically moderate to far leftists who hate the USA, while I love the USA and am a moderate right.
  • @ErfisFlat:

    I thought about handing out flyers for a while, and thought about how I would do it and what would happen, and I realized that it would be a bad idea. Out of the many people I hand them out to one person is bound to anonymously tell on me. And I would probably get into a lot of trouble, maybe be sent to the office and have my leftist parents get called, worst case scenario. I'll think about how I would go about telling the class why transgenderism and homosexuality are full of crap.
  • @Agility_Dude

    perhaps there is a club or group you could hang out with that share similar ideas?  In the past, long ago I visited different parts of Canada, though not the west coast, and really like it and the people.  Given the current laws and atmosphere I would not go back for many of the same reasons as what you fear.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • Very good point on the slander and libel laws.
    Though I would agree the hate speech laws in Canada seem troublesome, I'm not quite sure how this applies strictly to transgenderism.

    @Agility_Dude ;
    I'm not sure why you would love the U.S. It's not much better than other countries, and we obviously have our own problems atm.
    I'll think about how I would go about telling the class why transgenderism and homosexuality are full of crap.
    I would be careful with this kind of language. If you're goal is truly to convince people, then this will hinder your progress. If you want to convince people of your view, the best way to start is to be 100% diplomatic.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal
    transgenderism/transgenders are now a protected class in Canada

    Bill C-16, which adds gender identity and expression as prohibited grounds for discrimination under Canadian law, was introduced more than a year ago. MPs voted in favour of it last November and sent it on to the Senate, where senators raised concerns about it imposing limits on their speech.

    It will also extend protection against hate propaganda to include gender identity and expression, as well as to include them as aggravating circumstances to be considered in sentencing for hate crimes.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/senate-approves-transgender-rights-bill-after-delay-1.3461359


    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • @DrCereal
    transgenderism/transgenders are now a protected class in Canada

    Bill C-16, which adds gender identity and expression as prohibited grounds for discrimination under Canadian law, was introduced more than a year ago. MPs voted in favour of it last November and sent it on to the Senate, where senators raised concerns about it imposing limits on their speech.

    It will also extend protection against hate propaganda to include gender identity and expression, as well as to include them as aggravating circumstances to be considered in sentencing for hate crimes.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/senate-approves-transgender-rights-bill-after-delay-1.3461359


    I wish to direct you to the words "adds" and "extend". My point was that the laws existed prior to transgenderism being a legal problem so why is transgenderism the primary thing talked about?
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • DrCereal said:
    @DrCereal
    transgenderism/transgenders are now a protected class in Canada

    Bill C-16, which adds gender identity and expression as prohibited grounds for discrimination under Canadian law, was introduced more than a year ago. MPs voted in favour of it last November and sent it on to the Senate, where senators raised concerns about it imposing limits on their speech.

    It will also extend protection against hate propaganda to include gender identity and expression, as well as to include them as aggravating circumstances to be considered in sentencing for hate crimes.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/senate-approves-transgender-rights-bill-after-delay-1.3461359


    I wish to direct you to the words "adds" and "extend". My point was that the laws existed prior to transgenderism being a legal problem so why is transgenderism the primary thing talked about?
    I don't know I didn't bring it up, apparently it's something that @Agility_Dude is interested in, but has concerns about and rightly so it would seem.  Living in the U.S. it's difficult to really comprehend these restrictions.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • @Applesauce I do have lots of friends inside school who agree with me on these ideas, but we are still a minority in the school. Last year I wasn't with any of my friends who would be willing to back me up, and I suspect that won't be so next year either.

    @DrCereal Of course I wouldn't use words like crap in my debate with everyone. You're right. My friend had a 1 x 3 debate where he debated 3 people who weren't very experienced. He wrecked them in it but he used a lot of attacks that angered his opponents and got nowhere doing it. I will try to be as civil as possible in my debate. Like Steven Crowder in these debates:



    Of course there will be some ignorant people along the way but I hope to help people to understand the opposition (especially because not very many people know the good arguments against it) and get something productive out of it.

    I have realized that I most likely won't get in trouble and at worst get ostracized by many of my classmates. I am thinking very hard now on how to go about debating everyone in a civil manner and how to spark it.
    Applesauce
  • UPDATE: I looked into the school's student code of conduct, and it defines harassment as "unwelcome behavior", which can even mean sharing my opinion if some radical leftist wants me to shut up.
  • Something else to keep in mind is that one should separate an abstract opinion from treatment of actual individuals.

    Let me give you an example. I think that all mainstream religions are ridiculous totalitarian ideologies, and I have the right to voice this opinion publicly. However, this opinion does not have to define how I treat the actual religious people. I had a very good friend at university (she graduated recently) who is a devoted Muslim. I treated her just like I treat anyone else: with kindness, understanding and respect. While I do think her religion is ridiculous, I respect her choice to follow that religion, and I will not harass her with anti-religious talk. I dislike religion; I do not dislike religious people. I hope this makes sense to you.

    So, take some controversial opinion you might have - say, "I think transgender people are fooling themselves". Okay, this is your opinion. How do you actually voice it when talking to transgender people, or to those who care about transgender people? Do you respect transgender people as much as you do everyone else, even if you do not approve of their certain life choices - or do you let your opinion get in the way of treating them equally with other individuals?

    As someone with several very close transgender friends, I can tell you that discussing the topic is not a problem, and even voicing unpopular opinions is fine with many transgender people - but you have to separate voicing an opinion from voicing negativity towards the individuals. Walk up to a transgender person and say, "I personally do not agree with your life choice, but I think you are a great person and I hope you do not hold my personal opinion against me. We can debate this sensitive topic if you like, but know that no matter what I say, I've got your back, buddy." - in 99 cases out of 100 they will be understanding and will shake your hand. Walk up to them and say, "Hey, transgender, huh? I think you are fooling yourself. You are what your body corresponds to." - and that is a great way to antagonize someone who, otherwise, would not mind discussing the subject with you.

    ---

    So, ask yourself, "How do I voice my opinion at school? Do I make it clear that my opinion is my opinion and it does not affect how I actually feel about the individuals? Or is my narrative likely to be perceived as a personal attack against people for whom this subject is extremely sensitive?" Perhaps you can easily have these discussions with your mates and teachers, if you just tweak the way you deliver your lines a bit, so as to create a welcoming atmosphere, rather than a hostile one.

    Not to mention that, chances are, many of your peers agree with you on many subjects, they are just facing the same dilemma as you and, afraid of being ostracized, choose to conform with others. At my office, I recently voiced a concern over university quotas, which seemed divisive and discriminatory to me - and surprisingly found that almost everyone in the room agreed with me. Nobody before simply voiced the concern in such an eloquent way, so people could not relate - but now that they heard it put this way, they could, if not agree, then, at least, accept the validity of the concern.

    ---

    All that said, some people simply like to be offended, as it gives them a chance to attack someone and feel important at their expense. In such cases, there is not much that can be done, aside from avoiding interaction with those people. When saying "I am not sure gay marriage should be made legal on a federal level" causes an immediate aggressive retort, even before you can elaborate on the reasons behind your position - then the best way to act is to shrug, turn around and walk away. But such people are not very common from my experience, and I doubt you will have more than 1-2 of such people in your class and among your teachers.
  • @MayCaesar:

    Yeah definitely. I would of course try to be as respectful as I can to people. There is only one person in my grade as far as I know who is a gender non conformist, and she might be offended by my opinion even if I voice it respectfully (in my experience she or they is not very open minded). However, there are 4 classes each with around 28 people in my grade so it would be unlikely that I would have to talk to her in particular.

    I will also probably secretly record the whole discussion so that if I get in big trouble about this I can post it on youtube to show how bad this issue has become.
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