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Socialism is not authoritarian

Debate Information

while many believe that socialism is synonymous with communism it is not
Zombieguy1987
  1. Live Poll

    Is socialism authoritarian

    10 votes
    1. Yes
      50.00%
    2. No
      50.00%
  2. Live Poll

    Do you support socialism

    10 votes
    1. Yes
      30.00%
    2. No
      70.00%



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    Arguments


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -   edited October 2018
    Well, let us see...

    - Socialism rejects the concept of individual property and puts the wealth distribution in the hands of the society.
    - Socialism does not respect the principle of consent and interferes whenever two individuals want to sign a financial contract.
    - Socialism heavily regulates the economy, preventing people from freely participating on the free market. In fact, it destroys the free market as such.
    - Every time socialism has been tried in practice, it led to heavy repressions, totalitarianism and worship of the Great Leader.

    Hmm... Is socialism authoritarian? This is truly a difficult question. Authoritarian or liberal? Dilemma. ;)

    Socialism is authoritarian (in its softest form), and communism is totalitarian. Communism is simply socialism taken to its logical end.


    cheesycheesepiloteerZombieguy1987SilverishGoldNovaApplesauce
  • cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
    socialism
    /ˈsəʊʃəlɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
      synonyms:leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
      • policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
        synonyms:leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
      • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.





    authoritarian
    /ɔːˌθɒrɪˈtɛːrɪən/
    adjective
    1. 1. 
      favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
      "the transition from an authoritarian to a democratic regime"
      synonyms:autocratic, dictatorial, totalitarian, despotic, tyrannical, autarchic, draconian, absolute, arbitrary, oppressive, repressive, illiberal, undemocratic, anti-democratic; More
      noun
      1. 1. 
        an authoritarian person.
        synonyms:autocrat, despot, dictator, tyrant, absolutist; More
    2. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      Seeing as these are different they are not synonomys

    3. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      You mean communism when you say this
      Zombieguy1987
    4. CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
      Seeing as these are different they are not synonomys


      They aren't mutually exclusive either which makes your point rather pointless.
      Applesauce
    5. Polaris95Polaris95 147 Pts   -  
      @MayCaesar

      Socialism does not reject the idea of private property, that's communism. Cuba was communist, not socialist. Almost everything you said applies to communism, but not to socialism. In principle communism is the continuation of socialism, but they are still different in many aspects.
      piloteercheesycheeseZombieguy1987
    6. piloteerpiloteer 1577 Pts   -  
      "@Polaris95

      Try as you might, you can't prove to me there's a substantial difference between communism and socialism. If you look up the word "collectivism", you will find socialism and communism in that same category. If you look up "individualism" you will find neither socialism or communism in that category! Both of them were made into political science by the same person!
      cheesycheeseZombieguy1987Applesauce
    7. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      Karl marx created marxism not communism and i agree that its still terrible but not as bad as communism

      I have also been using welfare socialism which you may define as capitalism however i define it as socialist

      welfare state. An economic system that combines features of capitalism and socialism by retaining private ownership while the government enacts broad programs of social welfare, such as pensions and public housing.

      https://www.dictionary.com/browse/welfare-state

      Zombieguy1987
    8. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  

      CYDdharta said:
      Seeing as these are different they are not synonomys


      They aren't mutually exclusive either which makes your point rather pointless.
      You’re using a form of the argument because you can’t disprove it it must be true my point isn’t that socialism can’t be authoritarian my point is that socialism when in moderation can be effective
      Zombieguy1987
    9. MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
      @cheesycheese ;

      Not a single more or less reputable economical theory supports the notion that "socialism when in moderation can be effective". Not does any real data we possess from across multiple millennia. Keynesian model, one most economists consider borderline pseudo-science, is the one socialism advocates tend to refer to when they try to sound educated in the field - but even that model contradicts socialism on many levels.

      Not to mention that "socialism in moderation" is as much of an oxymoron as "fascism in moderation", or "Sharia law in moderation". Socialism itself sits very far away from any reasonable degree of moderation in economics.

      You can take a socialist model, remove all socialist elements from it and gain a functional system, indeed. Only that system would not be socialism any more.
      Zombieguy1987
    10. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      like it or not the form of socialism i'm talking about includes germany and the nordic countries

    11. MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -   edited October 2018
      @cheesycheese ;

      Any German/Nordic professor in economics would say that you failed your course and have to take it again, were you to make a claim that any of those countries is socialistic.

      Just because you personally choose to call those countries' economical systems "socialism", does not make it so.

      "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.” - Lars Løkke Rasmussen, prime minister of Denmark.
    12. AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
      Socialism is not inherently authoritarian. It refers to any system where the means of production are collectively owned and income is accorded based on how hard you work.

      It can manifest in authoritarian forms - Stalinism being an obvious example. What people don't tend to take into account is that this is just like Capitalism it can also manifest in authoritarianist forms. Moreover the societies which historically tended to break from their prexisting socioeconomic status to socialism were those that were already third world shitholes with no history of democracy, human rights, etc e.g. Russia was an authoritarian shithole before, during and after the USSR. Horrendous poverty, poor economy, oppression etc may be spurs for people to fight for equality, but they're also a poor basis for building a country and the socialism working poorly in situation where every economic policy works poorly does not mean socialism works poorly in a modern democratically entrenched country,.
      cheesycheesePolaris95
    13. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      MayCaesar said:
      @cheesycheese ;

      Any German/Nordic professor in economics would say that you failed your course and have to take it again, were you to make a claim that any of those countries is socialistic.

      Just because you personally choose to call those countries' economical systems "socialism", does not make it so.

      "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.” - Lars Løkke Rasmussen, prime minister of Denmark.
      you just contradicted yourself you said that just because i say so doesn't mean it's true then you used the word of the danish prime minister to say that it isn't socialist trying to convince me that i'm wrong about socialism not being authoritarian because you a person who actively fights socialism is claiming that democratic socialism doesn't exist it seems like an emotional reason rather than a logical one
    14. George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
      While Socialism does not promote authoritarian government, it has resulted in forms of authoritarian governments. 
      Zombieguy1987
      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

      "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

      We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
    15. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      @George_Horse however you treat it as if it always does
      George_Horse
    16. MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
      @cheesycheese

      I brought that quote to support my point with reasoning, not as a foundation of the point. Socialism is socialism: no matter who calls it what, there is a proper definition, and none of the Western democracies satisfy that definition.

      You constantly point at capitalist countries to support the claim that socialism works, while actual instances of socialist governments you dismiss. Your position is about as illogical as it can get. 

      The minimal amount of education in economics would decrease the number of socialists by 99% or so, I feel. Simple explanation of the supply/demand balance and the effects of the imposed governmental restrictions on it would already demolish the whole Sanders' voter base, for example. Alas, economics is not taught at school nearly as well as, say, physics/math, so many people know the mathematical 2+2=4, but are not aware of the economical 2+2=4.
    17. George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
      @George_Horse however you treat it as if it always does
      I do not treat it as if I think it happens everytime a socialist country has risen, I simply said it has resulted in forms of authoritarian government. If I am incorrect, please show me an example of a socialist country where political freedoms were NOT limited.
      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

      "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

      We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
    18. AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
      @George_Horse however you treat it as if it always does
      I do not treat it as if I think it happens everytime a socialist country has risen, I simply said it has resulted in forms of authoritarian government. If I am incorrect, please show me an example of a socialist country where political freedoms were NOT limited.
      Faulty logic.

      Flying a kite will result in your death within 130 years of flying a kite. Want to prove me wrong? Show me someone who flew a kite more than 130 years ago and is still alive.

      The above logic is not correct because it makes the assumption there can be no mutual connection between the two factors besides a direct causal link. Same applies with socialism. Did the countries have poor political freedoms because they were socialist or were both socialism and a lack of political freedom caused by a common factor e.g.: being backwards developing nations with no history of democracy, political freedoms and full of oppression? A common factor which wouldn't apply in a mnodern democracy choosing to implement democracy.

      Also political freedoms are limited in literally every country on earth do that's not a relevant benchmark and you can point to easy examples of socialist countries being better than the capitalist equivalents in terms of political rights, e.g. the democratically elected Allende being better than Pinochet who seized power in a CIA backed coup and then took to torturing his own populace and having people gunned down en masse in sports stadiums.
      cheesycheeseGeorge_Horse
    19. cheesycheesecheesycheese 79 Pts   -  
      MayCaesar said:
      @cheesycheese

      I brought that quote to support my point with reasoning, not as a foundation of the point. Socialism is socialism: no matter who calls it what, there is a proper definition, and none of the Western democracies satisfy that definition.

      You constantly point at capitalist countries to support the claim that socialism works, while actual instances of socialist governments you dismiss. Your position is about as illogical as it can get. 

      The minimal amount of education in economics would decrease the number of socialists by 99% or so, I feel. Simple explanation of the supply/demand balance and the effects of the imposed governmental restrictions on it would already demolish the whole Sanders' voter base, for example. Alas, economics is not taught at school nearly as well as, say, physics/math, so many people know the mathematical 2+2=4, but are not aware of the economical 2+2=4.
      like it or not the form of socialism i'm talking about includes germany and the nordic countries

      see i do point to socialist country a socialist countries values is taking care of the poor

      the video ranks germany as socialist as well as denmark
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