Comparing the walls of your house to the border wall is not a legit comparison

Applesauce

I think you misunderstand what they are saying.  The way I interpret that is, barriers work pretty well.  Have you ever heard "locks keep honest people honest" ?  Same kind of thing.

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/

OK, is the above website, the source from where your below points of view are maybe being based on? 

Point of view A)
"Comparing the walls of your house to the border is like comparing the gun crime rate of the U.S and the U.K. Of course the use of guns in crimes will be lower in Britian, because guns ARE banned, and as such in a very poor arguement in a gun control debate. But a similar thing can be said when people use the arguement of "Well, the walls of my house keep unwanted people out of my house, so a border will keep unwanted immigrants outside of the U.S.

Well, here's the thing... Most houses have MORE THEN ONE WALL! In order for this arguement to be vaild, the U.S government would need to put walls on the northern western, eastern and southern borders to make that arguement valid

 0  0  0 New

Just because the walls of your house keep intruders out doesn't mean a border wall will work"

Point of view  
"Conspiracy theories are created by clickbaity YouTubers and Alex Jones for views"

Point of of view C)
"Justice Warriors are killjoys and treat the smallest thing as if it's really bad, like the model, who was white, wearing a Black Panther shirt was racial issue, when it wasn't"

Point of view D)
"Religion's only purpose is to control the masses with lies and mind games"

@Zombieguy1987

Do you have other sources that can cooberate your above points of view with, that aren't internet website based?

Like NPR, WHRO, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, or from any of the local TV news media outlets that are maybe located from your own locality? 

Instead of from this individual website?

From the AthiestRepublic.com website:

"Welcome to Atheist Republic! A Community for Atheists Worldwide

This is the Atheist Republic. We are not afraid to call ourselves what we are. We are atheists and proud of it. We will not apologize for what we do and don’t believe. We will not rename ourselves in order to hide from hatred, and we will not stay isolated out of the fear of being demonized when united. We can’t stay silent while witnessing cruelty and injustice because we are not just atheists — we are atheists who care. Atheist Republic provides valuable news, resources and a medium for atheists to freely express themselves in a variety of ways, including discussion forums, blogs, local chapters (Atheist Republic Consulates) and our podcast! Atheist Republic Voicemails is a podcast where we collect voicemails from atheists all around the world and broadcast them to our global community and our podcast. Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast. Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world."

Is the above, the mission statement, from that internet website? 

Applesauce

@TTKDB
there is nothing to corroborate this is all opinion and semantics, much to do about nothing.  Imo it's a silly and childish argument either way, it's not worth discussing.

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@Zombieguy1987

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/

OK, is the above website, the source from where your below points of view are maybe being based on? 

Point of view A)
"Comparing the walls of your house to the border is like comparing the gun crime rate of the U.S and the U.K. Of course the use of guns in crimes will be lower in Britian, because guns ARE banned, and as such in a very poor arguement in a gun control debate. But a similar thing can be said when people use the arguement of "Well, the walls of my house keep unwanted people out of my house, so a border will keep unwanted immigrants outside of the U.S.

Well, here's the thing... Most houses have MORE THEN ONE WALL! In order for this arguement to be vaild, the U.S government would need to put walls on the northern western, eastern and southern borders to make that arguement valid

 0  0  0 New

Just because the walls of your house keep intruders out doesn't mean a border wall will work"

Point of view  
"Conspiracy theories are created by clickbaity YouTubers and Alex Jones for views"

Point of of view C)
"Justice Warriors are killjoys and treat the smallest thing as if it's really bad, like the model, who was white, wearing a Black Panther shirt was racial issue, when it wasn't"

Point of view D)
"Religion's only purpose is to control the masses with lies and mind games"

@Zombieguy1987

Do you have other sources that can cooberate your above points of view with, that aren't internet website based?

Like NPR, WHRO, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, or from any of the local TV news media outlets that are maybe located from your own locality? 

Instead of from this individual website?

From the AthiestRepublic.com website:

"Welcome to Atheist Republic! A Community for Atheists Worldwide

This is the Atheist Republic. We are not afraid to call ourselves what we are. We are atheists and proud of it. We will not apologize for what we do and don’t believe. We will not rename ourselves in order to hide from hatred, and we will not stay isolated out of the fear of being demonized when united. We can’t stay silent while witnessing cruelty and injustice because we are not just atheists — we are atheists who care. Atheist Republic provides valuable news, resources and a medium for atheists to freely express themselves in a variety of ways, including discussion forums, blogs, local chapters (Atheist Republic Consulates) and our podcast! Atheist Republic Voicemails is a podcast where we collect voicemails from atheists all around the world and broadcast them to our global community and our podcast. Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast. Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world."

Is the above, the mission statement, from that internet website? 

All of those signatures aren’t relevant to the debate. I just put those there because they’re my signature quotes and link to a great website 

Zombieguy1987

Applesauce said:

@TTKDB
there is nothing to corroborate this is all opinion and semantics, much to do about nothing.  Imo it's a silly and childish argument either way, it's not worth discussing.

No, there are people who actually think that because the walls of their house keeps unwanted people out means a wall will work...

CYDdharta

Zombieguy1987 said:

No, there are people who actually think that because the walls of their house keeps unwanted people out means a wall will work...

Right, there are completely unrelated reasons that the wall will work.

Zombieguy1987

CYDdharta said:

Zombieguy1987 said:

No, there are people who actually think that because the walls of their house keeps unwanted people out means a wall will work...

Right, there are completely unrelated reasons that the wall will work.

The only way the wall would work is if there was a northern, eastern, western wall along with the southern wall so that way the immigrants don’t GO AROUND IT!

CYDdharta

Zombieguy1987 said:

The only way the wall would work is if there was a northern, eastern, western wall along with the southern wall so that way the immigrants don’t GO AROUND IT!

Here's where I agree that the comparison between a house and a border wall doesn't work; no one owns a house that stretches from the east coast to the west coast of the US. They can't go around a completed wall without boats, and we have a Coast Guard to catch boats.

Zombieguy1987

CYDdharta said:

Zombieguy1987 said:

The only way the wall would work is if there was a northern, eastern, western wall along with the southern wall so that way the immigrants don’t GO AROUND IT!

Wrong.  They can't go around a completed wall without boats, and we have a Coast Guard to catch boats.

Wrong. They can use other methods to bypass the wall which I’ve already mentioned before

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

I just Googled these words, 
"Athiest building near me"

And this came up as a response: 

https://www.atheists.org/

"We’re fighting to protect
real religious freedom.

Since 1963, American Atheists has protected the absolute separation of religion from government, raised the profile of atheists and atheism in our nation’s public and political discourse, and educated Americans about atheism. Now, more than ever, we need your help.

American Atheists has more than 170 local affiliates nationwide.

Millions of people who no longer believe stay in their churches because of the community and support the churches provide. Our local affiliates stand ready to help and are vibrant communities full of people just like you who have left behind religion."

@Zombieguy1987

I'm making a guess that you're an Atheist?

If so, educate me on this these words? 

"We're fighting to protect real religious freedom."

From the (Atheist perspective,) what is the, "real religious freedom?"

Is some are voluntarily atheist, then how do those words, (real religious freedom) get formulated into a sentence, from someone who is an atheist? 

CYDdharta

Zombieguy1987 said:

Wrong. They can use other methods to bypass the wall which I’ve already mentioned before

Some, maybe, but not in nearly the numbers they can thru the open borders we have now.

MayCaesar

The "walls in my house" argument makes little sense, because it assumes that the US as a whole is one large house that must be protected from trespassers. Well, personally, I will not let a random person into my apartment, regardless of their nationality. My neighbour has about as much chance to gain entrance, as a random person from Mexico. My neighbour, while being an American, is not a part of my house.

Now, if you give America as a whole to me and let me alone decide who can or cannot enter - then sure, go ahead, I do not mind it particularly. If America is to be my house, then let me build a wall around it, as well as a roof above it. But it is not, hence the point is moot.

Comparing America to one's house is a typical nationalist collectivist view. It assumes that a random American is somehow more deserving to live in the shared "house", than a random non-American. Individuality does not matter, only arbitrary belonging to a group does.

SilverishGoldNova

@TTKDB Are you a bot?

Applesauce

@MayCaesar

you are missing the point I think, if the illegals could not get any benefit from entering illegally then there's no issue, however when they use tax money and services that does take way from legal citizens.  And that's the real problem, if someone wants to come it but get's no tax money or benefits, doesn't work illegally, doesn't commit crimes etc then there's no problem with them being in the country.
If you make it more difficult for people to get in, then there's more of a demand for other methods, boats, planes, whatever, the price for those services will sky rocket which will actually cut down on the numbers, risk vs reward.

TTKDB

@SilverishGoldNova

Are you an
(Art And Design Community Moderator?)

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

How many illegal immigrants are coming into the United States from Canada? 

A curious thing about the national news coverage?

Canada hasn't been mentioned to be dealing with any illegaI immigrants trying to enter the United States illegally from Canada?

Just as there has been a lack of national news coverage, about any illegaI immigrants trying to illegally gain entry into the United States via the East coast? 

Just as there has been a lack of national news coverage, about any illegaI Immigrants immigrants trying to illegally gain entry into the United States via the West coast?

But plenty of national news coverage from the southern border/ Mexico, of some of the Illegal immigrants coming into the United States illegally via the southern border.

Or do you know of any national news sources, expressing national news coverage stating that there are illegal immigrants who are coming into the country illegally from Canada, the West coast, and the East coast as well? 

If you have the links to those news sources, I would enjoy being educated from those very news media outlet sources? 

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@Zombieguy1987

How many illegal immigrants are coming into the United States from Canada? 

A curious thing about the national news coverage?

Canada hasn't been mentioned to be dealing with any illegaI immigrants trying to enter the United States illegally from Canada?

Just as there has been a lack of national news coverage, about any illegaI immigrants trying to illegally gain entry into the United States via the East coast? 

Just as there has been a lack of national news coverage, about any illegaI Immigrants immigrants trying to illegally gain entry into the United States via the West coast?

But plenty of national news coverage from the southern border/ Mexico, of some of the Illegal immigrants coming into the United States illegally via the southern border.

Or do you know of any national news sources, expressing national news coverage stating that there are illegal immigrants who are coming into the country illegally from Canada, the West coast, and the East coast as well? 

If you have the links to those news sources, I would enjoy being educated from those very news media outlet sources? 

Of course there are illegal immigrants on the U.S-Canadian border...

But Canada is happy to have the sore losers who claim Trump is a dictator and Hiliary is a victim of sexism

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@SilverishGoldNova

Are you an
(Art And Design Community Moderator?)

*sigh*

Why is that relevant?

MayCaesar

@Applesauce

Any American born here has access to all those benefits by default, without having done anything to earn them. I fail to see why different standards should be applied to a random person coming from Mexico. 

There are some illegal immigrants from Mexico here that are more law-abiding than most American citizens, aside from the instance of illegal entry. Yet just because they happened to be born further to the south, they must be denied certain benefits? I think not.

I do not think that the borders should be open for everyone. I would just like people to be more honest about the actual reasoning behind being pro-immigration control. It has nothing to do with fairness; it is a simple desire to have all the benefits for yourself. And there is nothing wrong with it: humans by nature strive to grab as big of a slice of the pie as possible. There is no reason to deny our nature and try to come up with pseudo-moral arguments.

CYDdharta

Zombieguy1987 said:

Of course there are illegal immigrants on the U.S-Canadian border...

But Canada is happy to have the sore losers who claim Trump is a dictator and Hiliary is a victim of sexism

We'll never know.  The sore losers are all talk, they never actually leave. 

As far as the types that are flooding our southern border, Canada doesn't want them either;

In August, Royal Canadian Mounted Police caught more than 5,500 people trying to illegally cross from the U.S. Those were mostly Haitian immigrants who will soon lose Temporary Protected Status as part of the Trump administration's phase-out of the TPS program that has protected more than 300,000 people from countries struck by war and natural disasters.

Only about 8% of their asylum application have been approved, however, meaning the vast majority have been turned down and are being deported straight back to their home countries.

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

Where is your news media provided (NPR, WHRO, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, or From CBS) evidence, that you can use to support your below claim? 

"But Canada is happy to have the sore losers who claim Trump is a dictator and Hiliary is a victim of sexism."

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

"Of course there are illegal immigrants on the U.S-Canadian border..."

https://amp-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/683297002?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/06/08/canada-warns-immigrants-u-s-heading-north-border/683297002/ 

Excerpts from the article:

"Canada warns immigrants in U.S. about heading north of the border

MIAMI — As President Trump travels north to Canada to attend the G7 summit, Canadian officials have been heading south to try to stem a wave of undocumented immigrants headed their way.

In what has become an increasingly regular mission, Canadian representatives visited the U.S this week to warn immigrants fearful over President Trump's immigration crackdown that they can't simply rush north of the border to find safe haven. 

Randy Boissonnault, a liberal member of Parliament and a special advisor to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, visited South Florida this week to try to educate would-be immigrants about the limitations of the Canadian immigration system.

In the past year, Canada has seen bursts of U.S.-based immigrants crossing illegally into Canada, mostly into the Quebec province that borders New York and other northeastern U.S. states.

Only about 8% of their asylum application have been approved, however, meaning the vast majority have been turned down and are being deported straight back to their home countries."

"People seem to think that if they cross the border there's this land of milk and honey on the other side," Boissonnault said from the Canadian consulate in Miami on Thursday. "What we want is for people to have the right information. We want them to do the right thing for their families."

Nathaniel_B

Obviously, but I believe the proper comparison would be comparing open borders to the front door of your house. 

cheesycheese

Nathaniel_B said:

Obviously, but I believe the proper comparison would be comparing open borders to the front door of your house. 

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

Isn't this maybe the main reason why the concept of a border wall may not work? 

"Map 1: Sanctuary Cities, Counties, and States

Updated May 30, 2018

The sanctuary jurisdictions are listed below. These cities, counties, and states have laws, ordinances, regulations, resolutions, policies, or other practices that obstruct immigration enforcement and shield criminals from ICE — either by refusing to or prohibiting agencies from complying with ICE detainers, imposing unreasonable conditions on detainer acceptance, denying ICE access to interview incarcerated aliens, or otherwise impeding communication or information exchanges between their personnel and federal immigration officers.

A detainer is the primary tool used by ICE to gain custody of criminal aliens for deportation. It is a notice to another law enforcement agency that ICE intends to assume custody of an alien and includes information on the alien's previous criminal history, immigration violations, and potential threat to public safety or security."

A border wall, may not work in principle, if you dangle the premise of giving an Illegal immigrant sanctuary, in a sanctuary city before their individual face/s, thus creating a reason for an Illegal immigrant, to make the choice to come into the United States illegally, by mentally bypassing the border wall, or border security, when a sanctuary city is going to give then sanctuary, thus rewarding the illegal immigrant/s efforts? 

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

https://cis.org/Map-Sanctuary-Cities-Counties-and-States

Nathaniel_B

cheesycheese said:

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

*gun ban*



You a whole joke out here son. Don't be talkin to me about some "gun ban" and that other nonsense you was talking about. You don't make no sense. 

CYDdharta

cheesycheese said:

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

Maybe you don't have a police force in your home, but try forcing your way into my house and you'll be met by the National Guard.

cheesycheese

CYDdharta said:

cheesycheese said:

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

Maybe you don't have a police force in your home, but try forcing your way into my house and you'll be met by the National Guard.

ok so because you have the national guard in your home then everyone must have that

cheesycheese

CYDdharta said:

cheesycheese said:

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

Maybe you don't have a police force in your home, but try forcing your way into my house and you'll be met by the National Guard.

also are you a senator or something

Debater10

They mean it figuratively, not directly.

midopreal

We could probably have an open border and the crime rate would not change. Immigrants have no intention of doing harm. Earning a wage and maybe if they are lucky improve from there ancestors on wealth and security. Anyone with bad intentions is going to come here no matter the security force we have unless we redeploy our army and naval forces to blockade the southern half of our country. They have ways and means so they'll get in. The black market will always have sellers and buyers. Hell, we can't stop illegal weapons and drugs coming here from Europe and Africa. All the dangerous things and people here are getting here no matter what. Think about it, the cartels have no problem getting there packages on airliners headed to the US.

cheesycheese

Nathaniel_B said:

cheesycheese said:

think about it you don't have a police force in your home however nations have police forces all we need is a gun ban and controlling the flow of immigrants not turning them away but checking them for weapons and criminal records there is also the fact that it would take one person with experience picking locks to break into a home while the U.S has over a million people defending that nation

*gun ban*



You a whole joke out here son. Don't be talkin to me about some "gun ban" and that other nonsense you was talking about. You don't make no sense. 

I don't make no sense so I do make sense

ethang5

Facts

*Americans have a right to enter and be in America. Illegal immigrants don't.

*Paying taxes does not excuse the fact that an illegal immigrant has broken the law.

*The resources of America are for, and owned by, Americans. Americans should have first dibs on those resources.

*Immigrants from countries with inferior cultures bring their culture with them and degrade American culture.

*America has absolutely no need  for immigrants. We may want some immigrants, but we don't need any.

*No crime stat on illegal immigrants justifies them from having broken the law. They have no right to be here.

*America is a nation of legal immigrants, not a nation of illegal immigrants.

*Borders are logical, moral, and necessary. The property of ownership means something.

*Bypassing safe countries to illegally enter the United States makes a search for safety claim in the US untrue.

*America is for Americans, and America does not need to explain or justify to any outsider why they are barred from entry.

These are cold hard facts.

Humbug

If your house was constructed from thin air, and not even consist of cardboard walls or a paper roof over your head, with no real doors or anything but a bed of dry grass to lay in under the night sky... How sound and safe would you, your spouse and children be each and every time which you all go to sleep? Add to it: no border patrol, no police, no law or judges to rule sentence against the prowling creeps of the night which prey and feed on your nightmares... Walls are only a measure of extra security from the creeps which insist to take advantage of everything which we have to offer and not resist! Walls are not foolproof but I'll sleep better knowing that there is an extra buffer and challenge between myself and multiple many more potential undesirables. So who am I referring to by calling "undesirable" all undocumented illegals who may or may not committed horrors by virtue of my not knowing their history! One last point to make, is that every crime which was ever committed by an undocumented illegal in the United States, could have been entirely avoided at the wall and gate before becoming an issue of offense on our soil and homeland but only if the wall stood in place of entry! I would also like to make a distinction between a documented and undocumented illegal. Those who overstay their visa to earn illegal status, are in fact documented prior to their decision and are very different from those who we know absolutely nothing about. For every intent and purpose cannibals, rapists, pedophiles and murderers are effectively here with the heart us knowing a thing or one half of a thing about their history! That thought should freaks out, even the heartiest liberal minds but they all are mindless...

Wheelman

@Applesauce You are partly correct, government borders and private property boundaries differ greatly. A government border is a line where service providers change. A legitimate governments role is to protect rights of individuals and a border signifies the location where responsible changes. A political border is a limit on governments not individuals. Whereas, private property boundaries signify ownership. This ownership is a limit on other individuals and governments.  

MichaelElpers

@Zombieguy1987 The point is walls make it harder to enter.  Is it easier to walk right across or get a boat and go around the border where their will be much more security.