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Every US baby is born $67K in debt.

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Does it matter?



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  • searsear 109 Pts   -  
    Check Brillig.org.

    "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." John Adams

  • ih8shartsih8sharts 59 Pts   -  
    @sear I tried, but www.Brillig.org does not seem to be active.
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -  
    Source?
  • ih8shartsih8sharts 59 Pts   -  
    Are you asking for a source on the debt? Just divide $22T by US population.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    This debt is not the amount owed by people to someone. This is the amount owed by the government to the people. So it is more accurate to say that, rather than every US baby is born ~67k in debt, every US baby is born with 40k (or however much results from taking into account internal debt only) in unclaimed credit.

    Further, the government does not borrow money equally from all people. It borrows money from selected organisations and individuals. When you take a loan from the bank, you are the only one ending up in debt, and other 300+ million of your countrymen are not a part of it. It is similar here. The "debt per born baby" is a metric that has no real meaning.

    Contrary to the popular notion, the government is not representative of every citizen. The government is only representative of the government, and common citizens cannot be held accountable for the missteps of the government. As such, the governmental debt is not the people's debt. See it as the government being a large corporation, and as people being its clients. You are not responsible for Amazon's debt, even if you regularly make purchases on Amazon.com.
    whiteflame
  • searsear 109 Pts   -  
    i8,
    Thanks on the Brillig update. You're right. It pooped out on me a few years ago. I never figured out why.

    MC,
    Yes, BUT !!
    The government is the people. And our government can't give us anything, or payback anything it has not first taken.
    And the problem with ~$67K ... is that it's a simple numerical "per capita" calculation. It includes infants, prisoners, homeless citizens, whose net worth is $zero, or in some cases less.
    So when indigent persons are excluded from the calculation, when we count only those that actually could afford to $pay, that per capita figure may be closer to $100K / citizen. And the sad fact is, what do we have to show for it?!
  • @MayCaesar ;

    The government is only representative of the government, and common citizens cannot be held accountable for the missteps of the government.

    You have heard of slavery right?
  • @ih8sharts ;

    To make a statement every child is expected to pay a minimum of $201,000.00 in total taxation over a lifetime. This is using your number of $76,000.00 as projection created by the recording of national Debt. This is not set in stone as the recording of dept. is measured by issue of economic receipt. Dollar. Subject to change with restriction on spending or cost of spending and a transfer of capital inside an economy.

    In explaining a National debt clock.Any Nation's debt clock as they appear, they are neither attached to time or attached to dept.. This can be proven by the understanding the clock's move incorrectly in either of these cases. Plus a clock as time is attached to the earth by use of machine, sextant to be precise. A National debt. clocks now in operation is just a dept. calculator add all forms of value blindly the way a public may acquire them.

    also a baby is not born into debt it is the parents of the child who are in dept. an this cost is the projection of cost is for Constitutional judicial separation and to hold it impartial. As there are things which effect this number it is not set in stone and can change. 
    \
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    If you're counting government debt as pro-rataed debt owed by the citizenry - you also have to count government wealth as pro-rated wealth owed to the citizenry and a tiny portion of the government taxation as child's ability to tax a tiny percentage of the income and expenditures of the other 299,999,999 Americans.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @sear

    I do not share the "government is the people" sentiment. In some idealised approximation, perhaps. In harsh reality, there is a very large gap between the bureaucrats managing the money that is taken from me without my consent thousands miles away from me, and my personal interest.
    It is true that the government cannot give us anything. It can take and waste, however, and it does so with high efficiency.

    Regardless, my point was that the governmental debt is not the same as people's debt. The government owing someone $100 does not put any responsibility on me. I have my credit card and car loan debts, but the governmental debt does not factor in my overall balance.

    There is a (somewhat disputed) consensus among economists that the optimal amount of governmental debt, assuming efficient utilisation of the loaned resources, is approximately the national GDP. And in this regard, the US does relatively close to the optimum, compared to some of the competition.
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html
    We were number 34 in the world in 2017, at approximately 82% of our GDP. In comparison, Japan, the leader (or the anti-leader, depending on how you look at it), boasts over 200% of GDP worth of public debt, and it is still considered one of the best performing economies in the world.

    The debt is not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on how much the output of loan utilisation offsets the losses to the interest. I do not know what these numbers are, but, as lousy as they are by design, governments tend to show the overall positive balance in this regard.
  • billbatardbillbatard 133 Pts   -  
    Thats just a theory .
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • @MayCaesar ;

    The debt is not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on how much the output of loan utilization offsets the losses to the interest.


     #1 National debt is not owned by its citizen the opportunity to own debt is given to the citizen of that country. It is not automatically assigned to a person. #2 Capital must be held to assume debt. #3 All debt is dependent on the axiom cost used in translation of total debt by receipt to understand clearly who holds the burdens of payment. #4 A dollar which is a registered receipt holding an independent set value is not a loan receipt making a public claim of legal standard on a volume of set values in dollar. It is placing a comparative value on Capital.

     @ih8sharts ;
    Yes it matters.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    The political representatives in their select offices, are a direct representation of the majority of the voter public? 

    And then the rest of the public, gets to live, and put up with the various outcomes of how that political representative, treats everyone else, via their individual political philosophies?

    Maybe some of the individual citizens, don't realize this but, they are their own worst political representative?

    The amount of Taxation Coffers that are in the U.S., and the various individuals, who go to a hospital for medical care, who can't even pay a copay, and then take some of that taxpayer money, and then have that taxpayer money, spent on their individual medical care?

    Some of the Taxation Coffers:

    Alcohol sales, legalized Weed sales, Tobacco sales, lottery winnings, Fuel tax, Grocery tax, Vehicle Registration tax,  Inspection Stickerstax, Property Taxes, and the Tolls on some of the Roadways? 

    The Country is in debt, because some of the voting public, maybe placed it in debt?

    And how much money is owed to China alone?

    I wonder, what percentage of products sold in U.S. stores, are imported from China alone? 

    75%, 80%, 85%, maybe 90%? 

    The above is my rough take on the debt conversation. 




  • TKDB

    Americans do not have to pay national debt they did not apply for a loan on national level. Realistically the address is on legal tender for all debt. Ever here that before? A Nations debt is placed out for bid in an economic market in several ways not just payments directly. It is not a monopoly of debt consolidation, quiet yet. The basic principle is when legislation increases spending the opportunity for greater foreign influence on their individual economy’s independence might take place as the size becomes to large to contain in the payment structure. Not interest itself but efficacy in translating value as registered receipt to the consumers.

    Add to this the damage if not legal implications to the idea of counterfeiting the dollar by use of plagiarism instead of identical forgeries.

    Add to this the damage leverage from improper management of axiom proportion can have on imperiality of payments.

    The argument with trade deficit as it relates to the Asian economic exchanges is based on united state held by labor rate. Americas labor rate goes up the deficit will climb as it is the electronic technologies which dictate the replacement of manufacturing inside the U.S. and outside the U.S.

  • In plain words a general evaluation such as GDP no longer substantiates reliable numbers for projections of Nation trade value base on just quantity of product. Never really did.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited April 2019
    From Wikipedia:

    "Payment of US national debt

    On January 1, 1835, president Andrew Jackson paid off the entire national debt, the only time in U.S. history that has been accomplished.[12][13]"


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit_reduction_in_the_United_States


    "Deficit reduction in the United States"

    This information is from the "Risk" section:

    “Here’s how bad our situation really is [as of 2008]: We already have approximately $11 trillion in total liabilities, including public debt. To this amount, you need to add the current unfunded obligations for Social Security benefits, of about $7 trillion. Then add Medicare’s unfunded promises – $34 trillion – of which about $26T relates to Medicare parts A &B and about $8 trillion relates to Medicare Part D, the new prescription drug benefit, which some claimed would save money in overall Medicare costs. Add another $1 trillion in miscellaneous items, and you get $53 trillion. Our country would need $53 trillion invested today, which is about $175,000 per person, to deliver on the government’s obligations and promises. How of much of this $53 trillion do we have? Zip.”[16]

    David M. Walker (U.S. Comptroller General)

    "There are several risks associated with high and rising debt levels. However, when an economy is growing slowly and unemployment is elevated, there is risk that a budget deficit is too small. When the private sector is unable to grow the economy sufficiently, government spending can make up for the shortfall, although this increases the deficit and debt in the short-run. Many economists have argued, as Keynes did, that the time for fiscal austerity is during the economic boom, not the bust.[17][18]

    High debt levels

    The CBO reported several types of risk factors related to high and rising debt levels in a July 2010 publication:

    • A growing portion of savings would go towards purchases of government debt, rather than investments in productive capital goods such as factories and computers, leading to lower output and incomes than would otherwise occur;
    • If higher marginal tax rates were used to pay rising interest costs, savings would be reduced and work would be discouraged;
    • Rising interest costs would force reductions in important government programs;
    • Restrictions to the ability of policymakers to use fiscal policy to respond to economic challenges; and
    • An increased risk of a sudden fiscal crisis, in which investors demand higher interest rates.[19]

    Risks to economic growth from reducing deficits

    Reducing the budget deficit by tax increases or spending cuts may slow economic growth. One example was the United States fiscal cliff which referred to a series of tax increases and spending cuts scheduled to go into effect at the end of 2012. The risks arose primarily from the expiration of the Bush tax cuts and implementation of the Budget Control Act of 2011. CBO projected that economic growth would have slowed considerably in 2013 if the tax hikes and spending cuts had gone into effect, with the 2013 GDP growth rate dropping from +1.7% to -0.5% (causing a mild recession) and higher unemployment. Most of the tax increases were avoided by the American Taxpayer Relief Act, although the spending cuts from the Budget Control Act (also referred to as "the sequester") were not addressed.[20]"

    From the "Revenue Proposals" section:

    "Democrats and Republicans mean very different things when they talk about tax reform. Democrats argue for the wealthy to pay more via higher income tax rates, while Republicans focus on lowering income tax rates. While both parties discuss reducing tax expenditures (i.e., exemptions and deductions), Republicans focus on preserving lower tax rates for capital gains and dividends, while Democrats prefer educational credits and capping deductions. Political realities make it unlikely that more than $150 billion per year in individual tax expenditures could be eliminated. One area with more common ground is corporate tax rates, where both parties have generally agreed that lower rates and fewer tax expenditures would align the U.S. more directly with foreign competition.[32]"



  • billbatardbillbatard 133 Pts   -  
    not  really , do they get a bill?
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • @TKDB ;

    Nice work TKDB before I say anything, I must complement you on the assembly of this information.

     I do have a question that kind of addresses billatard’s remark by importance. Is the National Debt derived from legal tender for all debt both foreign and domestic or is it derived from other means?  

    I am addressing the topic as written (Deficit reduction in the United States) A United State of unable to grow sufficiently does not exist. The ability may be strictly unwilling and not unable. There is no such thing as government spending, the spending is legislative spending strictly as there are names attached to the distribution of public funds.

    Though not necessary, we should attempt to stick to whole truth when gathering conscious on National Debt. It is not a United State of Debt. As Billbatard describes the obvious basics, the debt a person goes to the back to barrow is a United State of debt. The bank is distributing a Federal Reserve Note as Legal Tender for all Debt foreign and domestic. The Note is fixed value of receipt by proportion.



  • @TKDB ;

    I do not see what portion of National dept. can be found to be illegal thus making it uncollectable?

    Before taxation is collected on a dept. isn't the determination of legal dept. important? 
    This is one of the issues I looked at carefully when restructuring a clock attached to debt.
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