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Earth is a ball that is 25,000 miles in circumference.
in Earth Science

By ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts


I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
Zombieguy1987AmpersandSilverishGoldNovaGooberry
  1. Live Poll

    Earth,?

    18 votes
    1. Ball
      83.33%
    2. Not a ball
      16.67%
Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

Wayne Dyer
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Arguments

  •  I will not touch NASA or any other space agencies and I will propose a simple way of knowing that the earth is curved.

     Fact 1: The sun does not change size during the day.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhNFoy2fAr4
    (Do not forget that the sun has to change size more than 2x on a flat earth, so flat earth videos showing 1-2 milimeter differences will not help your case.)

     Fact 2: You surely know about that experiment with sticks done by the ancient Greeks. Contact with a friend. Do that experiment. Or, if you have not completely lost your trust against all human beings, you can examine the experiments already done by people. 

    Conclusion: If these two facts are true, the earth needs to be a ball (Well, at least it has to have a curve between the two places you did the experiment.) 
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987AlofRI
  • AlofRIAlofRI 177 Pts
    "It is better to grasp the Universe as it really is, than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan
    "Only two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." A. Einstein

    Both quotes from very smart men, both relevant to this very strange, irrelevant post.

    "All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self evident." Arthur Shopenhauer

    Another quote from another smart man. He didn't mention how long some people could be stuck at first and second, and missed their chance to go to third with the rest of the team. Albert, you were SO right.
    Zombieguy1987PlaffelvohfenErfisflatZeusAres42K_Michael
  • @AlofRl

     Not whole truth. But great try on the scientific method. Sounds mathematic to me.

     

    @Effisflat

    In order to perform a scientific method to prove the earth is round.  You need a series of tools and must display and ability to assemble and use a sextant and compass. A quality that may be lacking in science today.

    Simply complex questions are a contradiction for intelligent disposition of a even more complicated answer.

    1 + 1 = more than one, or less than nine minus eleven. Numbers are a distance that always requires a position and understanding of motion to secure whole truth.

    As far as I know John_C_

    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    AlexOland said:
     I will not touch NASA or any other space agencies and I will propose a simple way of knowing that the earth is curved.

     Fact 1: The sun does not change size during the day.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhNFoy2fAr4
    (Do not forget that the sun has to change size more than 2x on a flat earth, so flat earth videos showing 1-2 milimeter differences will not help your case.)

     Fact 2: You surely know about that experiment with sticks done by the ancient Greeks. Contact with a friend. Do that experiment. Or, if you have not completely lost your trust against all human beings, you can examine the experiments already done by people. 

    Conclusion: If these two facts are true, the earth needs to be a ball (Well, at least it has to have a curve between the two places you did the experiment.) 
    Fact 1.

    Your argument is basically this.

    If the earth is flat, the sun would change it's size as it crosses the sky.

    The sun changes its size as it crosses the sky, so the earth is not flat.

    This is an affirming the consequent fallacy.

    It is like saying

    If I have the flu, I will have a fever.

    I have a fever, so I have the flu.

    You have assumed the cause of the observation, without using the scientific method to test it first.

    You are ignoring any other possible reasons, known or unknown variables.

    An example would be basic physics of light.

    Light can be magnified. Pointing at the sun doesn't prove that the earth is a ball.

    Fact 2.

    Yet another fallacy of the same breed. A strawman.

    Other possible causes:

    The sun is close, which produces identical results.



    Conclusion:

    Non-sequitors
    Zombieguy1987AlexOland
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    edited March 29
    Surely you are going to identify the fallacy, @Zombieguy1987
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • 10 easy ways you can tell for yourself that the Earth is not flat

    This story was originally published on Smarter Than That in 2008. We are republishing a lightly edited version on Popular Science in light of recent interest in the subject.

    Humanity has known Earth is round for a few millenia, and I’ve been meaning to show more methods that prove the world is not flat. I’ve had a few ideas on how to do that, but recently got an interesting incentive, when Phil Plait, The Bad Astronomer, wrote about a recently published BBC article about “The Flat Earth” society. (Most recently, rapper B.o.B. went on a Twitter rant on the topic.) Phil claims it’s ridiculous to even bother rebutting the Flat Earth Society—and I tend to agree. But the history of our species’ intellectual pursuit is important and interesting. You don’t need to denounce all science and knowledge and believe in a kooky conspiracy theory to enjoy some historical factoids about humanity’s quest for space.

    n we go, to the top 10 ways to know the Earth is unequivocally, absolutely, positively, 100% not flat!

    1. The Moon

    Now that humanity knows quite positively that the Moon is not a piece of cheese or a playful god, the phenomena that accompany it (from its monthly cycles to lunar eclipses) are well-explained. It was quite a mystery to the ancient Greeks, though, and in their quest for knowledge, they came up with a few insightful observations that helped humanity figure out the shape of our planet.

    Aristotle (who made quite a lot of observations about the spherical nature of the Earth) noticed that during lunar eclipses (when the Earth’s orbit places it directly between the Sun and the Moon, creating a shadow in the process), the shadow on the Moon’s surface is round. This shadow is the planet's, and it’s a great clue about the spherical shape of the Earth.

    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • lunar eclipse

    LUNAR ECLIPSE

    A sequential view of the lunar eclipse that occurred on April 15, 2014. You can see Earth's shadow crossing the face of the Moon, and the shadow's shape is curved because Earth is spherical.

    Javier Sánchez

    Since the earth is rotating (see the “Foucault Pendulum” experiment for a definite proof, if you are doubtful), the consistent oval-shadow it produces in each and every lunar eclipse proves that the earth is not only round but spherical—absolutely, utterly, beyond a shadow of a doubt not flat.

    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • 2. Ships and the horizon

    If you’ve been next to a port lately, or just strolled down a beach and stared off vacantly into the horizon, you might have noticed a very interesting phenomenon: Approaching ships do not just “appear” out of the horizon (like they should have if the world was flat), but rather seem to emerge from beneath the sea.

    But—you say—ships do not submerge and rise up again as they approach our view (except in Pirates of the Caribbean, but we are hereby assuming that was a fictitious movie series). The reason ships appear as if they “emerge from the waves” is because the world is not flat: It’s round.

    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • ANT ON AN ORANGE

    What you would see if you watched an ant crawling toward you over a curved surface.

    Moriel Schottlender

    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • Imagine an ant walking along the surface of an orange, into your field of view. If you look at the orange “head on”, you will see the ant’s body slowly rising up from the “horizon” because of the curvature of the orange. If you would do that experiment with the ant approaching along a long road rather than a round object, the effect would change: The ant would slowly "materialize" into view (depending on how sharp your vision is).

    3. Varying star constellations

    This observation was originally made by Aristotle (384-322 BCE), who declared the Earth was round judging from the different constellations one sees while moving away from the equator.

    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • ON A ROUND PLANET

    Stargazing on a round Earth

    Moriel Schottlender

    After returning from a trip to Egypt, Aristotle noted, “There are stars seen in Egypt and…Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions.” This phenomenon can only be explained if humans were viewing the stars from a round surface, Aristotle continued, claiming that the sphere of the Earth is “of no great size, for otherwise the effect of so slight a change of place would not be quickly apparent.” (De caelo, 298a2-10)

    The farther you go from the equator, the farther the "known" constellations go towards the horizon, to be replaced by different stars. This would not have happened if the world was flat:

    K_Michael
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • Stargazing on a flat Earth

    ON A FLAT PLANE

    Stargazing on a flat Earth

    Moriel Schottlender

    4. Shadows and sticks

    If you stick a stick in the (sticky) ground, it will produce a shadow. The shadow moves as time passes (which is the principle for ancient Shadow Clocks). If the world had been flat, then two sticks in different locations would produce the same shadow:

    stick shadows on a flat Earth

    STICK SHADOWS ON A FLAT EARTH

    Imagine the Sun's rays (represented by yellow lines) hitting two sticks (white lines) some distance apart. If the Earth were flat, the resulting shadows would be the same length, no matter how far apart you place the sticks.

    Moriel Schottlender

    But they don’t. This is because the Earth is round, and not flat:

    stick shadows on a round Earth

    STICK SHADOWS ON A ROUND EARTH

    Because the Earth is round, sticks placed at distant locations will throw shadows of different lengths.

    Moriel Schottlender

    Eratosthenes (276-194 BCE) used this principle to calculate the circumference of the Earth quite accurately. To see this demonstrated, refer to my experiment video about Eratosthenes and the circumference of the Earth.

    5. Seeing farther from higher

    Standing on a flat plateau, you look ahead toward the horizon. You strain your eyes, then take out your favorite binoculars and stare through them, as far as your eyes (with the help of the binocular lenses) can see.

    Next, climb up the closest tree—the higher the better, just be careful not to drop those binoculars and break their lenses. Then look again, strain your eyes, and stare through the binoculars out to the horizon.

    The higher up you climb, the farther you will see. Usually, we tend to relate this to Earthly obstacles—like the fact we have houses or other trees obstructing our vision on the ground, and climbing upwards we have a clear view—but that’s not the true reason. Even if you stood on a completely clear plateau with no obstacles between you and the horizon, you would see much farther from the greater height than you would on the ground.

    This phenomenon is caused by the curvature of the Earth as well, and would not happen if the Earth was flat:

    point of view on a flat Earth

    POINT OF VIEW ON A FLAT EARTH

    How far can you see from a height? On a flat Earth, elevation doesn't make a difference.

    Moriel Schottlender

    point of view on a round Earth

    POINT OF VIEW ON A ROUND EARTH

    How far can you see from a height? On a round Earth, elevation makes a big difference.

    Moriel Schottlender

    6. Ride a plane

    If you’ve ever taken a trip out of the country, specifically long-distance trips, you could notice two interesting facts about planes and the Earth:

    1. Planes can travel in a relatively straight line for a very long time and not fall off any edges. They can also circle the Earth without stopping.
    2. If you look out the window on a trans-Atlantic flight, you can, most of the times, see the curvature of the Earth on the horizon. The best view of the curvature used to be on the Concorde, but that plane’s long gone. I can’t wait to see the pictures from the new plane by Virgin Galactic—the horizon should look absolutely curved, as it actually is from a distance.

    7. Look at other planets

    The Earth is different from other planets, that much is true. After all, we have life, and we haven’t found any other planets with life (yet). However, there are certain characteristics all planets have, and it will be quite logical to assume that if all planets behave a certain way, or show certain characteristics—specifically if those planets are in different places or were created under different circumstances—our planet is the same.

    In other words: If so many planets that were created in different locations and under different circumstances show the same property, it’s likely that our own planet has the same property as well. All of our observations show that other planets are spherical (and since we know how they’re created, it’s also obvious why they take this shape). Unless we have a very good reason to think otherwise (which we don’t), our planet is very likely the same.

    In 1610, Galileo Galilei observed the moons of Jupiter rotating around it. He described them as small planets orbiting a larger planet—a description (and observation) that was very difficult for the church to accept, as it challenged a geocentric model where everything was supposed to revolve around the Earth. This observation also showed that the planets (Jupiter, Neptune, and later Venus was observed too) are all spherical, and all orbit the sun.

    A flat planet (ours or any other planet) would be such an incredible observation that it would pretty much go against everything we know about how planets form and behave. It would not only change everything we know about planet formation, but also about star formation (our sun would have to behave quite differently to accommodate the flat-earth theory) and what we know of speeds and movements in space (like planets' orbits and the effects of gravity). In short, we don’t just suspect that our planet is spherical. We know it.

    Popular Science

    By Bonnier Corporation

    $10.00$29.94
    Rated 4 out of 5 by 1548 reviewers on Amazon.com

    8. The existence of time zones

    The time in New York, at the moment these words are written, is 12:00pm. The sun is in the middle of the sky (though it’s hard to see with the current cloud coverage). In Beijing, it’s 12:00am, midnight, and the sun is nowhere to be found. In Adelaide, Australia, it is 1:30am. More than 13 hours ahead. There, the sunset is long gone—so much so, that the sun will soon rise up again at the beginning of a new day.

    time zones

    TIME ZONES

    We have time zones because when the Sun is illuminating one side of the spherical Earth, the other side is dark.

    Moriel Schottlender

    This can only be explained if the world is round, and rotating around its own axis. At a certain point when the sun is shining on one part of the Earth, the opposite side is dark, and vice versa. That allows for time differences and time zones, specifically ones that are larger than 12 hours.

    Another point concerning timezones, the sun, and Earth: If the sun was a “spotlight” (very directionally located so that light only shines on a specific location) and the world was flat, we would see the sun even if it didn’t shine on top of us (as you can see in the drawing below). Similarly, you can see the light coming out of a spotlight on a stage in the theater, even though you—the crowd—are sitting in the dark. The only way to create two distinctly separate time zones, where there is complete darkness in one while there’s light in the other, is if the world is spherical.

    debunking the sun as spotlight theory

    THE "SUN AS SPOTLIGHT" THEORY

    The visibility of a spotlight in a darkened theater should debunk the "sun as spotlight" theory.

    Moriel Schottlender

    9. The pull of gravity

    Here's an interesting fact about mass: It attracts things to it. The force of attraction (gravity) between two objects depends on their mass and the distance between them. Simply said, gravity will pull toward the center of mass of the objects. To find the center of mass, you have to examine the object.

    a spheres center of mass

    A SPHERE'S CENTER OF MASS

    On a sphere's surface, gravity will pull you toward the sphere's center of mass: straight down.

    Moriel Schottlender

    Consider a sphere. Since a sphere has a consistent shape, no matter where on it you stand, you have exactly the same amount of sphere under you. (Imagine an ant walking around on a crystal ball. From the insect's point of view, the only indication of movement would be the fact the ant is moving its feet—the shape of the surface would not change at all.) A sphere's center of mass is in the center of the sphere, which means gravity will pull anything on the surface of the sphere straight down toward the center of the sphere. This will occur no matter where on the surface the object is located.

    Consider a flat plane. The center of mass of a flat plane is in its center, so the force of gravity will pull anything on the surface toward the middle of the plane. That means that if you stand on the edge of the plane, gravity will be pulling you sideways toward the plane's middle, not straight down like you usually experience when you stand on Earth.

    a planes center of mass

    A PLANE'S CENTER OF MASS

    A plane's center of mass is in its middle—which means that gravity should pull objects toward the center of the plane.

    Moriel Schottlender

    I am quite positive that, even for Australians, an apple falls downwards, not sideways. But if you have your doubts, I urge you to try dropping something—just make sure it’s nothing that can break or hurt you.

    For further reading about the center of mass and distribution of mass, check out this link. And if you are brave enough to handle some equations (not involving integration), you can learn more about Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation here.

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    10. Images from space

    In the past 60 years of space exploration, we’ve launched satellites, probes, and people into space. Some of them got back, some of them still float through the solar system (and almost beyond it), and many transmit amazing images to our receivers on Earth. In all of these photos, the Earth is (wait for it) spherical. The curvature of the Earth is also visible in the manymanymanymany photos snapped by astronauts aboard the International Space Station. You can see a recent example from ISS Commander Scott Kelly's Instagram right here:

    You know what they say—a picture is worth a thousand diss tracks.

    Moriel Schottlender is a software engineer at Wikimedia Foundation. This article was originally posted on her Smarter Than That blog in 2008.



    Zombieguy1987ErfisflatK_Michael
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • The basis for something being scientifically valid is that you can make predictions about what should happen and test them.

    That's the basis of Popperian falsifiability and the scientific method. Despite the clear and evident proof of is literally having photos of a spherical earth taken from space, the space missions that directly showed the shape of the Earth were just confirming what we already knew because every expectation and prediction based upon the shape of the earth, it's size, it's relative distance to other astronomic bodies, the underlying forces that would effect this like gravity, light, etc all match scientific predictions. So yeah, of course a spherical earth is correct.

    If you look at the flat earth as an alternative you can see that the arguments presented for it are non-existent or backwards. 

    Why are there eclipses on a flat earth? Because of a magical untestable invisible force which sometimes appears in the sky 

    How does the relationship between the earth and sun on a flat earth work to result in what we obserce? It just magically works and no figures for how big the sun is in the flat earth model, how far away it is, etc will ever be provided so it can never be checked like an actual scientific theory would be.
    PlaffelvohfenErfisflatZombieguy1987
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    edited March 29

    10 easy ways you can tell for yourself that the Earth is not flat

    This story was originally published on Smarter Than That in 2008. We are republishing a lightly edited version on Popular Science in light of recent interest in the subject.

    Humanity has known Earth is round for a few millenia, and I’ve been meaning to show more methods that prove the world is not flat. I’ve had a few ideas on how to do that, but recently got an interesting incentive, when Phil Plait, The Bad Astronomer, wrote about a recently published BBC article about “The Flat Earth” society. (Most recently, rapper B.o.B. went on a Twitter rant on the topic.) Phil claims it’s ridiculous to even bother rebutting the Flat Earth Society—and I tend to agree. But the history of our species’ intellectual pursuit is important and interesting. You don’t need to denounce all science and knowledge and believe in a kooky conspiracy theory to enjoy some historical factoids about humanity’s quest for space.

    n we go, to the top 10 ways to know the Earth is unequivocally, absolutely, positively, 100% not flat!

    1. The Moon

    Now that humanity knows quite positively that the Moon is not a piece of cheese or a playful god, the phenomena that accompany it (from its monthly cycles to lunar eclipses) are well-explained. It was quite a mystery to the ancient Greeks, though, and in their quest for knowledge, they came up with a few insightful observations that helped humanity figure out the shape of our planet.

    Aristotle (who made quite a lot of observations about the spherical nature of the Earth) noticed that during lunar eclipses (when the Earth’s orbit places it directly between the Sun and the Moon, creating a shadow in the process), the shadow on the Moon’s surface is round. This shadow is the planet's, and it’s a great clue about the spherical shape of the Earth.

    Lunar eclipse is yet another strawman/affirming the consequent, as well as circular reasoning, unless a reasonable question is answered:

    How exactly do you know the earth causes the shadow on the moon? A swinging pendulum?


    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Ampersand said:
    The basis for something being scientifically valid is that you can make predictions about what should happen and test them.

    That's the basis of Popperian falsifiability and the scientific method. Despite the clear and evident proof of is literally having photos of a spherical earth taken from space, the space missions that directly showed the shape of the Earth were just confirming what we already knew because every expectation and prediction based upon the shape of the earth, it's size, it's relative distance to other astronomic bodies, the underlying forces that would effect this like gravity, light, etc all match scientific predictions. So yeah, of course a spherical earth is correct.

    If you look at the flat earth as an alternative you can see that the arguments presented for it are non-existent or backwards. 

    Why are there eclipses on a flat earth? Because of a magical untestable invisible force which sometimes appears in the sky 

    How does the relationship between the earth and sun on a flat earth work to result in what we obserce? It just magically works and no figures for how big the sun is in the flat earth model, how far away it is, etc will ever be provided so it can never be checked like an actual scientific theory would be.
    Basically your argument is this:

    I have not found or built a working model for a flat Earth, therefore the earth is a ball?


    Im sure I don't have to tell you how fallacious this is...
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    @billbatard copy and pasting is lazy.

    Formulate your own arguments, or at least copy and paste them separately.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Erfisflat said:
    Ampersand said:
    The basis for something being scientifically valid is that you can make predictions about what should happen and test them.

    That's the basis of Popperian falsifiability and the scientific method. Despite the clear and evident proof of is literally having photos of a spherical earth taken from space, the space missions that directly showed the shape of the Earth were just confirming what we already knew because every expectation and prediction based upon the shape of the earth, it's size, it's relative distance to other astronomic bodies, the underlying forces that would effect this like gravity, light, etc all match scientific predictions. So yeah, of course a spherical earth is correct.

    If you look at the flat earth as an alternative you can see that the arguments presented for it are non-existent or backwards. 

    Why are there eclipses on a flat earth? Because of a magical untestable invisible force which sometimes appears in the sky 

    How does the relationship between the earth and sun on a flat earth work to result in what we obserce? It just magically works and no figures for how big the sun is in the flat earth model, how far away it is, etc will ever be provided so it can never be checked like an actual scientific theory would be.
    Basically your argument is this:

    I have not found or built a working model for a flat Earth, therefore the earth is a ball?


    Im sure I don't have to tell you how fallacious this is...
    Did you just not bother to read the first two paragraphs?

    Try again and respond to what I've actually written, not a straw man. I explicitly point out the reason to believe in a spherical earth is because the evidence flawlessly supports it.
    Zombieguy1987
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Ampersand said:
    Erfisflat said:
    Ampersand said:
    The basis for something being scientifically valid is that you can make predictions about what should happen and test them.

    That's the basis of Popperian falsifiability and the scientific method. Despite the clear and evident proof of is literally having photos of a spherical earth taken from space, the space missions that directly showed the shape of the Earth were just confirming what we already knew because every expectation and prediction based upon the shape of the earth, it's size, it's relative distance to other astronomic bodies, the underlying forces that would effect this like gravity, light, etc all match scientific predictions. So yeah, of course a spherical earth is correct.

    If you look at the flat earth as an alternative you can see that the arguments presented for it are non-existent or backwards. 

    Why are there eclipses on a flat earth? Because of a magical untestable invisible force which sometimes appears in the sky 

    How does the relationship between the earth and sun on a flat earth work to result in what we obserce? It just magically works and no figures for how big the sun is in the flat earth model, how far away it is, etc will ever be provided so it can never be checked like an actual scientific theory would be.
    Basically your argument is this:

    I have not found or built a working model for a flat Earth, therefore the earth is a ball?


    Im sure I don't have to tell you how fallacious this is...
    Did you just not bother to read the first two paragraphs?

    Try again and respond to what I've actually written, not a straw man. I explicitly point out the reason to believe in a spherical earth is because the evidence flawlessly supports it.
     You evidence is photos from space? The other statement is just a vague assertion, nothing to rebut.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Unverifiable imagery is not considered scientific evidence
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Erfisflat said:
    Unverifiable imagery is not considered scientific evidence
    Unverifiable?? You can verify them yourself for less than $150... 
    ErfisflatZombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    Unverifiable imagery is not considered scientific evidence
    Unverifiable?? You can verify them yourself for less than $150... 
    You can take me to space to verify that these images are real empirically for $150?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat

    You didn't even bother to read the linked article right?
    Erfisflat
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    @Erfisflat

    You didn't even bother to read the linked article right?
    I didn't.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat

    Thought so... There's thus no point in continuing this conversation.
    Zombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    @Erfisflat

    Thought so... There's thus no point in continuing this conversation.
    After reviewing the evidence, I urge you to look at the definitions of empirical, and ball. Showing me an image of a curved horizon is not proving the earth is a ball.

    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    How is that irrelevant?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    edited March 29
    If you feel as if my post was irrelevant, please point out, so we can resolve any indifferences.

    If not, there is nothing else to discuss.

    Next
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Zombieguy1987SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat why? this isnt about me its about reality
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    @Erfisflat why? this isnt about me its about reality
    What exactly are you asking why to? Your post is incoherent.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat "If the earth was flat, the sun would change at least this much size. The sun does not change this much size, therefore the earth is not flat." This was the argument. Try and refute it properly. And, by the way, if you use a proper solar filter, the sun does not change size (As Shawn Hufford clearly presented in his video.). Understand an argument before you try to refute it. 

     Actually, I would like you to notice the soundness of the argument I am making:
    1- The shadow experiment tells us that if the earth is flat, the sun would be close.
    2- If the sun was close, we would see it grow and shrink to more than 2x its size during day, which we do not.
    Conclusion: The earth cannot be flat.

     Now, how the hell can anyone refute this? We know what the shadow experiment results in. We have observed that the sun does not change size during day. Even if you refute videos that use proper filters, flat earthers with the wrong equipment were not able to record more than 2x growth. Therefore, there can not be any discussion on if the earth is flat or not. We can only discuss how much curve it has. (That is, if we were to take this argument as the only argument we have.)

    PlaffelvohfenSilverishGoldNova
  • @AlexOland ;

    May I interject?

    The world could not be flat the oceans have depth. The world could be a cube it cannot be mathematically or scientifically flat.

    The real argument of flat is made on mathematics as Pi describes a calculation in a flat word that does not exist other than on paper. I am waiting for the understanding by IBM, Microsoft, and Apple that time in a digital translation was performed mathematically.



  • @John_C_87 Well if we were to get technical about it, the earth could not be a cube either. Everything is made up of atoms after all correct? 

     Anyways, you know what "flat earth" means. And I do not think anyone here does not. So we really do not need to get that technical.

    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    edited March 29
    AlexOland said:
    @Erfisflat "If the earth was flat, the sun would change at least this much size. The sun does not change this much size, therefore the earth is not flat." This was the argument. Try and refute it properly. And, by the way, if you use a proper solar filter, the sun does not change size (As Shawn Hufford clearly presented in his video.). Understand an argument before you try to refute it. 

     Actually, I would like you to notice the soundness of the argument I am making:
    1- The shadow experiment tells us that if the earth is flat, the sun would be close.
    2- If the sun was close, we would see it grow and shrink to more than 2x its size during day, which we do not.
    Conclusion: The earth cannot be flat.

     Now, how the hell can anyone refute this? We know what the shadow experiment results in. We have observed that the sun does not change size during day. Even if you refute videos that use proper filters, flat earthers with the wrong equipment were not able to record more than 2x growth. Therefore, there can not be any discussion on if the earth is flat or not. We can only discuss how much curve it has. (That is, if we were to take this argument as the only argument we have.)

    You seem to be overly concerned about the sun. This is not the earth, and is therefore a strawman.

    It was pointed out that it was a fallacy, in that you are only inferring that the earth is a sphere, from an observation of the sun. 

    Without even considering other possible causes, you have jumped to the conclusion here. 

    Consider an alternative cause. I briefly mentioned it before. As most anyone knows, light can be magnified. In some models, there is a dome, maybe a clear liquid, then stars. In some models the sun is outside of the dome.


    https://m.imgur.com/r/mildlyinteresting/DlGtxXQ

    Keep in mind, this is not "my" model, as this isn't the topic. I don't have a model. I prefer to test that assumption you make by measuring the earth, empirically.


    If you could not see the actual position and size of the bear, you would swear that the bear was larger, and in a completely different position than it actually is. We can get into the possible angles that we would be looking into this concave glass-like structure, discuss Snell's law til we have worked up a pretty good model of how it works, but I am not in the sky to do accurate tests. I prefer to measure the ground.

    So, by having and or ignoring another possible cause, you have jumped to this conclusion, based on a possibly misunderstood observation. This is by definition pseudoscience, and is illogical.
    PlaffelvohfenAmpersandZombieguy1987AlexOland
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Even atmospheric refraction can magnify light
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    The earth could be a cylinder, or an infinite plane
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts


    Just tossing ideas round. The bottom half could be this, while the top half is inverted, making the enclosed system a sphere, while we live in the middle, on the flat Earth.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    I should have said that I do not abide by a specific model. I am working on a model. It is constantly changing, as per the scientific method. The important bit is that I am starting with a verifiable fact. Which is numerous empirical measurements and tests proving that light bends, but water does not.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    This makes two possible alternative causes that you must disprove, in order for your arguments to be logical and scientific sound.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Then your argument still cannot be "if and only if the sun changes ..."
    which is logically sound, because of other unknown variables and causes.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    Now would be a good time to research the behavior of light.
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • GooberryGooberry 595 Pts
    Erfisflat said:


    I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
    No you’re not.

    You’re looking for people to provide you evidence that you can dismiss, with whatever speculative nonsense you can think of.

    If you were looking for evidence, you would have disappeared from the internet 3 years and 2 websites ago.

    PlaffelvohfenSilverishGoldNovaZombieguy1987AlexOland
  • Gooberry said:
    Erfisflat said:


    I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
    No you’re not.

    You’re looking for people to provide you evidence that you can dismiss, with whatever speculative nonsense you can think of.

    If you were looking for evidence, you would have disappeared from the internet 3 years and 2 websites ago.

    I honestly thought I would never see him return, but apparently he's back for more.
    Zombieguy1987
    Retired DebateIslander. I no longer come here actively, and many of the things that I may have posted in the past (Such as belief in the flat Earth theory) do not reflect on my current views. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit

  • GooberryGooberry 595 Pts
    Gooberry said:
    Erfisflat said:


    I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
    No you’re not.

    You’re looking for people to provide you evidence that you can dismiss, with whatever speculative nonsense you can think of.

    If you were looking for evidence, you would have disappeared from the internet 3 years and 2 websites ago.

    I honestly thought I would never see him return, but apparently he's back for more.
    I think he was just waiting to see if there was enough time elapsed that he could claim no one had comprehensively refuted him at all last time.

    If I recall last time was embarrassing.
    SilverishGoldNovaZombieguy1987
  • edited March 30
    Gooberry said:
    Gooberry said:
    Erfisflat said:


    I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
    No you’re not.

    You’re looking for people to provide you evidence that you can dismiss, with whatever speculative nonsense you can think of.

    If you were looking for evidence, you would have disappeared from the internet 3 years and 2 websites ago.

    I honestly thought I would never see him return, but apparently he's back for more.
    I think he was just waiting to see if there was enough time elapsed that he could claim no one had comprehensively refuted him at all last time.

    If I recall last time was embarrassing.
    ...GLHF
    Zombieguy1987
    Retired DebateIslander. I no longer come here actively, and many of the things that I may have posted in the past (Such as belief in the flat Earth theory) do not reflect on my current views. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    I'm not really sure if those were meant to be arguments and evidence or not.

    Seems like you were just having a go at me.

    Still waiting for logical and scientific evidence for a spherical earth....
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    If you guys have a problem with the my arguments, you can point it out specifically, otherwise this is just appeals to the stones
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1632 Pts
    edited March 30
    Gooberry said:
    Gooberry said:
    Erfisflat said:


    I am looking for empirical scientific evidence using sound logic that evidences the globe earth, hereby referred to as GE. The same GE that is taught to us in preschool. No semantics, no trolls, just logic, and the scientific method.
    No you’re not.

    You’re looking for people to provide you evidence that you can dismiss, with whatever speculative nonsense you can think of.

    If you were looking for evidence, you would have disappeared from the internet 3 years and 2 websites ago.

    I honestly thought I would never see him return, but apparently he's back for more.
    I think he was just waiting to see if there was enough time elapsed that he could claim no one had comprehensively refuted him at all last time.

    If I recall last time was embarrassing.
    My quest for truth has led me back here, I've debated on several other platforms, and have met quite a few like minded people, including a PHD in spectrophometry, who has helped me understand refraction in out atmosphere. 

    You're welcome to restate your arguments, if you feel it will be best
    Zombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @AlexOland ;

    Flat Earth means science has no mathematic understanding of what time is precisely in relationship to mathematics and science. Out side of that flat earth is the physics generalization of basic concepts of mathematics stating the Earth is a cylinder described without precision being generally mathematically relative. This contradiction too zero as Pi shares a mathematic irrational state by setting distance as a life persona too scale.

    Isaac Newton described Pi best with math as time being a geometric 90 degree turn in all motion.

     

    Understanding the basic principle of time. The clock is a 90 degree scale off of the compass which then makes a series of 90 degree turns in a math proportion, scale. Two turns making a change of direction 180 degree of velocity by scale.

    Yes. Erfistlat there is empirical scientific evidence that a person can be instructed to collect, to find and observe themselves. The idea is they must find the evidence themselves by use of tools. Compass, clock, sextant, and an artificial horizon is required. All as part of instruction.

    Keep in mind that Digital time set by computers for space travel never grasped time in mathematic translation needs the compass as a magnetic constant is a second unrecognized motion for time.  


    Erfisflat
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