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Vaccines are a scam

Debate Information

I propose that vaccines are a scam and don't work. 
Rationale - That ever since early history humans have been deceived by unscrupulous people. These people used to be known as witch doctors or shaman.
These people try to use or gain the strength and power of animals by mixing the blood of animals with human blood.
This is the basis from which vaccination comes from and where people like Edward Jenner got the inspiration.
Edward Jenner heard old wives tales about these practices from the distant past.
He thought that there might be some scientific basis behind this barbaric practice.
But, alas, in those days people didn't understand nutrition or know how vitamins keep you healthy.
Thus, they were ignorant of how the human body functions so they just latched onto anything credible that they could get their hands on to explain how disease begins and for what reason.
Thus, they can up with this idea that some invisible germs must be carried from person to person which caused disease.
But, alas, they were wrong. They didn't know that grain food caused their guts or intestines to become leaky, which allowed bacteria from their guts to enter into their blood stream.
This mistake has led to 200 years of vaccination which has done nothing to stop and diseases from occurring.
See - vaccination liberation website for graphs which show that vaccination has been totally ineffective at stopping or preventing disease.
PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42AmericanFurryBoyApplesauceZombieguy1987IshaanKhalapPolaris95
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  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    Prove it.
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    I thought I heard a primitive grunt. Nah! Couldn't be. Surely.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    I don't think you understand immunology, immunological response, antigens and antibodies.  If you did, you'd see how silly this post is.  I have neither the time or inclination to explain those things to you, you are on your own to be informed on the matter.  Get educated.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42Polaris95
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    I have worked in an electron microscope laboratory so my knowledge would be more than you could handle and I would just make a donkey out of you so I guess you had better run away as fast as you can before I do. Are there any persons on this website that are not full of themselves and can carry out a normal discussion?  I doubt it. lol
    PlaffelvohfenApplesauce
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -   edited May 2019
    @Akhenaten
    Are there any persons on this website that are not full of themselves and can carry out a normal discussion? 
    Well, you've just excluded yourself then...
    ZeusAres42ApplesauceZombieguy1987Polaris95
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited May 2019
    @Akhenaten

    You say .....I have worked in an electron microscope laboratory

    My reply .....Doing what? Maybe making coffee for the real scientists 

    You say .....so my knowledge would be more than you could handle and I would just make a donkey out of you so I guess you had better run away as fast as you can before I do.

    My reply .....I think you’ve just made a Donkey out of yourself with your inane bleatings 

    You say .....Are there any persons on this website that are not full of themselves and can carry out a normal discussion?  I doubt it. lol 

    My reply .....I think you’re on the wrong website maybe Yahoo answers is more suited to your “towering” intellect


    ApplesauceIshaanKhalap
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    So your evidence to destroy the scientific consensus is - some random graphs you don't even provide but merely say exist on some random website and nothing else?

    Why even bother posting if that's all you have?
    PlaffelvohfenApplesauceZombieguy1987Polaris95
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    The funny thing is that I've worked with electron microscopes myself, and whatever @Akhenaten's experience is, it doesn't jive with the reality of how labs like this are generally run. By the way, saying your knowledge is more than someone can handle is a very poor excuse for refusing to provide any information whatsoever. For all your certainty that vaccines are a scam and viruses don't exist, you never provide any actual data from the lab you worked in to show that that's true. You can only speak from a point of expertise in science if you have actual evidence from that science, yet all you ever do is point to some crackpot theories with little to no support.
    PlaffelvohfenApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • RyanHoughRyanHough 71 Pts   -  
    Vaccines are a scam? I'm pretty sure the Tetanus vax saves multiple lives a year. I could have died if I wasn't vaccinated. And multiple children die from tetanus a year because the parent's arent vaccinated.
    Applesauce
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    Akhenaten said:
    I have worked in an electron microscope laboratory so my knowledge would be more than you could handle and I would just make a donkey out of you so I guess you had better run away as fast as you can before I do. Are there any persons on this website that are not full of themselves and can carry out a normal discussion?  I doubt it. lol
    What laboratory did you work in, what did you work on and what are your qualifications? So far you seem to just be making stuff up in order to perpetuate your abysmal arguments.

    I looked up that Vaccination Liberation website you referred to. It looks like a website made as a C-grade middle school project, it does not reference anything of any degree of scientific recognition and, all in all, is even a weaker effort to convince anyone of anything than the Flat Earth Society website does.

    People who have read some conspiracy websites with no evidence provided and started believing in wild theories always weirded me out. Maybe I am just a very logical person, but I stopped being this naive when I was around 4 years old and was tricked for the first time in my life. Ever since I always tested every claim made logically. I am not sure where people come from that are just willing to believe whatever they are told, as long as it makes them feel special.
    PlaffelvohfenwhiteflameApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2668 Pts   -   edited May 2019
    By the same token, I could also propose that oxygen is a scam I guess. Satire!


    Applesauce



  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    You have all shown total ineptness that comes from sloppy thinking and lack of effort.
    I have given you a credible reference site and most of you can't locate the vaccination graphs and information about how disease has not been eradicated by vaccination.
    i know that you all religiously believe that the peer review system is infallible and can be trusted. This is a false assumption. I have proven dozens of times through research and debate that the peer review system is full of mistakes and corruption. This was proven when false data was sent to the reviewers only to find that the 90 % of the false data was left undetected and was approved for publication. This proved that the peer review system is faulty and is no better than any other random source of information.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/


    http://www.whale.to/a/graphs.html
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    So, let me get this straight. Your conclusion from the study is that, since peer review has problems that allow false data to get through, we should treat all data from all sources equally? Seriously? I get that there are problems with peer review, but trashing the whole system as effectively smoke and mirrors throws out the baby with the bathwater. We can both recognize that peer review is far from perfect and still note that it's a whole hell of a lot better than nothing at all.

    And while we're reviewing data, you might note that your second link sources every chart that it deigns to source (can't help but notice that some of them are just... there) to two books, each of which would require us to get a hold of and read hundreds of pages to verify. These aren't effective sources to present in an online debate when it takes that long to verify them, not to mention that both books clearly have agendas (seriously, those titles are dead giveaways) and are written by non-experts (Beattie runs an antivaxxer website and... that's about it, and Obomsawin has a PhD in health science and human ecology, but no medical background). Finally, I have actually looked into the data presented here, and much as it doesn't state it on the graphs, the "rates per 100,000" that it describes are mortality rates, not incidence. In that sense, yes, societies were getting an awful lot better at treating illnesses before vaccines came around. Prevention is a whole other story.
    MayCaesarApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    Yet, you rely on uneducated people like Edward Jenner, who was in today's standards, no more qualified than would be a local butcher in human anatomy. Thus, you are just a mixed up fanatic who will support vaccination regardless of the amount and accuracy of information. The problem is that the medical system has a logical alternative to germ theory which they don't even bother to consider. This is mainly because there is no money in giving dietary advice but there is big dollars in prescribing pills and surgery as solutions. Thus, the whole medical system is geared to making huge profits at people's expense and is not interested in charity or in human health.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    A lot of us base our views not just on what peer reviewers have concluded, but on what we ourselves have concluded from our own research. I don't think that vaccines are not a scam because some scientist in glasses told me so, I think that they are not a scam because I actually spent some time studying the subject on my own and came to the same conclusions as the scientists.

    The same cannot be said about you, as you seem to just blindly trust any claim that supports your point of view, no matter the quality of argumentation, quality of references, etc.

    We do not "believe that the peer review system is infallible"; how the peer review system works is, actually, one of my biggest qualms with modern science, and I would like the whole process redesigned. This does not mean that random crazy claims made on the Internet become any more credible, however. We are comparing a system full of faults - with a system that in itself is one big fault.
    whiteflameApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    A system that allows 90% of false data to be published as fact is not just an incidental or inconsequential error. This is a total disaster and should be immediately acted upon with the utter most urgency. So, you are saying that a 90% error rate is acceptable? lol Any science laboratory that had a 90 % error rate would be shut down immediately.
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    The vaccination liberation site only uses historical government and hospital records as their source of information. So, are you saying that all historical government and hospital archival material is garbage?
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    I didn't say I'm reliant on Jenner, or any individual researcher for that matter. If you want to assume there's a profit motive for literally every piece of scientific research that has come out on the subject of disease and vaccination, I guess you can do that, though that seems more than a little assumptive of a lot of motivations.

    On the subject of peer review, I don't actually see the 90% figure in the article you cited, but even if it was true, the peer review system at least requires someone else to look at a piece of research and evaluate it based on whether it meets basic criteria required for publication. Even if that system is dramatically flawed, it's still better than no system whatsoever. We can both recognize the flaws in the system and accept that it's better than nothing. 

    Along those lines, if you find that the vaccination liberation site is a better source, then I'd like to see some examples beyond the graphs you linked to earlier. There are clear flaws in how those graphs depict the reality because they only relate information regarding mortality and not incidence. In that sense, the actual sources they use to build their graphs isn't the problem - it's the way they depict that information. Saying "rates of" implies incidence, yet their data clearly does not relate to incidence. That's a problem. 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    "Data published as fact" - what does it mean? Every published article contains evidence and logical reasoning leading to conclusion from that evidence. No evidence is infallible, and logical chains are rarely flawless. The purpose of a scientific article is not to establish what a "fact" is (there is no democratic consensus in science, and we do not vote for or against facts), but to propose a new idea that can be explored further in the future.

    The exception is pure mathematics, where most articles have to be found logically flawless in order to be accepted. But pure mathematics deals not with natural phenomena, but with an abstract self-enclosed system in which facts can be established with 100% certainty. This is not the case with physics or medical sciences.

    I do not know where you found the claim on the 90% error rate. I suppose that number can be true, if we consider the slightest flaw in any paper to constitute an error - but it does not have nearly the same impact on science as your representation might imply. 
    What I do know is that random claims on the Internet have a much higher error rate, than the peer review system.
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @whiteflame

    1. Do you understand that vaccination is/was based on primitive tribal practices of initiation and ceremony?
    2. Do you understand that vaccination is/was based on the assumption that animal blood has supernatural powers because it was observed that animals never get sick and can run very fast.
    3. Do you understand that animals don't get sick because they don't eat the same kind of inappropriate foods that humans eat like, sugar, grain, dairy and fat?

    False assumptions leads to false expectations. You have already made up your mind that disease comes from external sources and is imported into the human body. Yet, there is no evidence or logic to support this hypothesis. Any self induced diet regime will reveal that disease can be manipulated with diet. I can turn on and switch off disease just by adjusting the foods that I eat. I have done this thousands of times and it works 100 % every time. There are hundreds of books on the market which show how to avoid disease with diet. You can talk pedantically about mortality rates verses incidence rates of disease but it is all meaningless if your assumptions are wrong in the first place.

    The science world often confuses results with causes. This is evident in how the science community assumes that the sun's heat is what causes atomic reactions to occur which allows the sun to burn eternally.
    Note - The sun's heat is a result of it's gravitational pressure and is not caused by heat. Thus, if you check out the fusion reactor websites you will find that all research is based on trying to recreate fusion by applying heat. This is a false assumption which will cost billions of dollars in wasted money and time. The same mix up has occurred with biology. "Germs are the result of a disease and are not the cause." (Antoine Bechamp.)
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Quote - "What I do know is that random claims on the Internet have a much higher error rate, than the peer review system."

    Reply - Not necessarily. Each case should be assessed independently. Some peer reviewed papers are clearly in complete error and are withdrawn from the peer review system on a fairly regular basis.

    Quote - "but with an abstract self-enclosed system in which facts can be established with 100% certainty. This is not the case with physics or medical sciences."

    Reply - Not necessarily. There are plenty of things in the medical and physical sciences where there can be only one right answer. The fact that there might be multiple answers to an issue could be an error in itself.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    You are conflating the effects. Heat is required to generate fusion; that heat in stars comes from gravitational pressure. The scientific community knows it very well, and every astrophysics student learns it in one of the first classes.

    On Earth such gravitational pressure is unfeasible to create, hence they try to generate the required heat by other means. There us no error here.
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Oh well, you can't do it on Earth. That's all I know. When you deny the existence of aether and aether wind you must apply heat to create fusion because you are confused. lol 
    MayCaesarZombieguy1987
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -   edited May 2019
    @Akhenaten

    You have this absolutely great habit of asserting things as true without any support whatsoever. All three of the things you ask if I understand are almost certainly untrue. The inoculation method may be semi-similar to tribal practices, but the notion that vaccination is made poorer by the fact that inoculation methods have looked rather similar over time doesn't have any basis in reality. Vaccination is absolutely not based in the view that animal blood grants superpowers. Animals do get sick all the time and, frankly, that's an absurd assertion.

    For someone who talks a lot about false assumptions, you come at this from the perspective of someone who assumes diet is the only thing that matters. For myself, I've been informed by experiments run by others and by myself about the importance of both internal and external factors on living organisms of all sorts. That's not just a hypothesis, that's a boatload of evidence. Where's yours, beyond personal assertions about how you've managed to become immune to disease by adjusting your diet? Where's your clinical trial? What's your sample size? Among those books, who has run experiments among large populations to assess the effectiveness of diet changes, and how much consistency have they found? Have these experiments been unbiased? Blinded? Compared with control populations? If so, show me the papers they've published.

    I'm not speaking pedantically. Mortality rates represent how well a society addresses a diseased population, i.e. how likely those people are to survive their illnesses given available methods of intervention. Survival isn't the only metric by which we assess a disease burden, and the effects of outbreaks on a given population aren't solely comprised of lost lives. That means all those graphs show is one very small part of a much larger picture. Actual disease burdens for vaccinable diseases drop off after the vaccines become widely available. That's a matter of fact. I'm not sure which assumptions you're referring to, but if they include the fact that these diseases exist (and yes, it is a fact), then your own charts make the same assumption.

    It's intriguing that you call out the scientific community for confusing results with causes, yet your whole argument does just that. You altered your diet, ergo you became well. It cannot be any other factor - only the diet is causative in your outcome, despite a complete lack of evidence for how it's doing so. Meanwhile, I can take someone that has been vaccinated and expose them to individuals infected with the same virus as the one they are inoculated against. They will not get the disease, and I will be able to track down individual antibodies in their system that did not exist before the vaccination, but now exist against the specific proteins from the virus. That's a molecular basis for establishing causation, as is my inoculating an animal or plant with a given virus and seeing it replicate, generate protein, and bring about disease symptoms post-inoculation. Where's yours?
    PlaffelvohfenApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    Zombieguy1987Polaris95
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • I cannot help but think this is just trolling. Somethings are really not worthy of debating and this is one of them. It is kinda humorous though.

    Saying vaccines are a scam is akin to saying that brain surgery is a scam.
    PlaffelvohfenApplesauceOppolzerZombieguy1987Polaris95



  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    If you eat a proper diet you won't need brain surgery. Thus, yes, brain surgery and all other surgery for that matter is mostly unnecessary. If you take the right precautions and avoid artery inflaming and blocking foods like dairy, grain, sugar and fat you can avoid brain tumours from forming in the first place.
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @whiteflame
    Quote - "Animals do get sick all the time and, frankly, that's an absurd assertion."

    Note - Saying that "I assert" is an assertion in itself. 
    Animals only get sick when you take them away from their natural environment and force them to eat unnatural foods which contain grain, sugar and other hormone inducing chemicals. This is what most agricultural companies do.

    Quote - " Have these experiments been unbiased? Blinded? Compared with control populations? If so, show me the papers they've published."

    I have been to several doctors and dentists and none of them have ever suggested that diet was a factor in causing my tooth decay or other health problems. Thus, the medical system is just a money making racket which is profit driven and doesn't really care if their patients live or die. All they want is your money and to make sure you never get wise to the scam by not telling you the truth about disease and it's true causes. That way, they can enjoy a prosperous career with a never ending supply of suckers who will come rushing into the door asking for help. These suckers will pay big money because their body organs are failing due to blockages and inflammation. The doctor will offer pills to cure the blockages and inflammations caused by the grass allergy problem. But, alas, the problem won't go away because pills don't really do anything but mask or exacerbate the problem.

    Good question though. Where are the papers that prove diet can cure all disease? None available. That's because the medical system has deliberately not done any tests because they already know that the results would destroy the medical scam system and all doctors would have to go to jail for fraud.

    Quote " Meanwhile, I can take someone that has been vaccinated and expose them to individuals infected with the same virus as the one they are inoculated against. They will not get the disease,"

    Looks like you forgot about Disneyland.  lol

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/whos-risk-measles-maybe-think

    Polio caused by a virus? lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbcHszMCIJM


  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    So, making the factual observation that you make multiple assertions (i.e. points without evidence or reasoning) is an assertion? If you're conflating the two, then I guess I can see how you might willfully ignore real data and studies. To you, they're all assertions. I'm surprised you accept any point of view and don't just treat every claim, supported or not, as equally suspect.

    If you are correct, then there would be no evidence of wild animals ever getting ill. Let's just ignore the lists and lists and lists of evidence against that claim: 
    http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/species-and-habitats/diseases-in-wildlife
    http://icwdm.org/handbook/damage/WildlifeDiseases.asp

    Much of the remainder of your response involves you insisting that you not only know the sole motivation behind every single MD's suggestions to their patients (monetary), but that they show absolutely no obligation to their patients. I'm amazed! You're telling me you can read the minds of every single doctor, dentist and nurse across the country? Because that's the only way you could possibly be so certain of their motivations and impetuses. That also sounds incredibly illogical. The idea that doctors would actively invite tremendously damaging lawsuits by ignoring patient problems (and probably actively making them worse) simply for the purpose of handing out prescriptions for drugs that give them, at best, limited kickbacks? Sounds entirely rational. Clearly, you have your finger on the pulse of the medical establishment.

    And you've clearly got your priorities in order when it comes to who and what you believe is best supported science! Rather than accept unbiased, blinded clinical trial data that you can interpret yourself to come to your own conclusions, you choose to believe in what can only charitably be described as minimally-tested diet techniques based solely on your personal experience (which is inherently biased and unblinded). Even if this is being actively subverted by the medical establishment, I don't know what's to stop any person with a decent amount of money in the bank from running a basic trial, since it is solely diet-based, and posting it on the Internet. They would make far more money than they lose and blow this whole thing wide open, so why hasn't it happened yet?

    Finally, the reality that not all vaccines are 100% effective can also be tested. I can take 10 vaccinated people, expose them to someone infected with the virus, and see that only 1 walks away with the disease. I can take 10 unvaccinated people, expose them to the same infected person, and see that all or almost all of them walk away with the disease. Absolute protection is not required to be effective. And your YouTube video is an absolute joke and utterly false.
    MayCaesarZombieguy1987
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -   edited May 2019
    Akhenaten said:

    Where are the papers that prove diet can cure all disease? None available. That's because the medical system has deliberately not done any tests because they already know that the results would destroy the medical scam system and all doctors would have to go to jail for fraud.
    I am disappointed. I thought we had a peculiar case here. But no, all you have to offer is just one more iteration of "I am right, but all the evidence has been covered up by evil conspirationists".

    According to you, it would take a small amateur laboratory to destroy the whole medical system. Doing so would earn the respective laboratory trillions dollars. But of course nobody does that, because [excuse 1], [excuse 2] and [excuse 3]. Here, I even left the blanks for you to fill to simplify your task!

    Also, "aether wind"? Please.
    whiteflamePlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • AmericanFurryBoyAmericanFurryBoy 531 Pts   -  
    Vaccines are a weakened version of a disease. When injected into the body, the disease in its weakened state can’t do anything, this allows the body to learn how to destroy the disease further protecting it from the disease if it ever try’s to infect you. A shaman mixing animal blood is very different from a modern day doctor actually protecting you
    Zombieguy1987
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    test
    Zombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @whiteflame

    1. Pesticides, herbicides, poison baits, fire retardants and chemical defoliants get into the natural environment. There aren't many places left in the world which poisons haven't affected.
     Thus, if a wild animal gets a disease you can be sure that one of these chemicals was to blame and it wasn't a virus. In the case of bees, the Varroa mite is blamed for introducing a DWV virus. Nonsense. It's always chemical poisoning that causes these problems.

    2. Quote - "The idea that doctors would actively invite tremendously damaging lawsuits by ignoring patient problems (and probably actively making them worse) simply for the purpose of handing out prescriptions for drugs that give them, at best, limited kickbacks? Sounds entirely rational. Clearly, you have your finger on the pulse of the medical establishment."

    Reply - You don't seem to understand that the medical profession has always been a charlatan profession. Ever since the beginning of time, witch doctors have danced around a camp fire shaking bones to scare away the evil spirits. Nothing has changed. Doctors still do similar things but they use modern equipment like electron microscopes and CTC scans to fool people instead of shaking bones. It's just a con game of deception. A trick to get people to give them money for protection against those 'evil spirits'. You should spend some time to learn about leaky gut syndrome and how bacteria and faecal material from the gut leak into the blood stream. This is the true avenue that germs get into the blood. They don't come mysteriously from the exterior world and attack humans. This is the illogical nonsense of germ theory. 

    3. Quote - "Even if this is being actively subverted by the medical establishment, I don't know what's to stop any person with a decent amount of money in the bank from running a basic trial, since it is solely diet-based, and posting it on the Internet. They would make far more money than they lose and blow this whole thing wide open, so why hasn't it happened yet?"

    Reply -  It's already out there. Try reading the Medical Racket by Wade Frazier. 

    4. Quote - "Finally, the reality that not all vaccines are 100% effective can also be tested. I can take 10 vaccinated people, expose them to someone infected with the virus, and see that only 1 walks away with the disease. I can take 10 unvaccinated people, expose them to the same infected person, and see that all or almost all of them walk away with the disease. Absolute protection is not required to be effective. And your YouTube video is an absolute joke and utterly false."

    Reply - I guess the Disneyland measles incident blows that argument away. Bam!!! 
    "The youtube video is a joke"? I guess seeing children being sprayed with poisonous DDT was too much for your sensitive soul. lol
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @AmericanFurryBoy

    Yeah, that was the story they sold us 200 years ago by a Chemist known as Luis Pasteur. But they ignored the biologist named Antoine Bechamp who said " germs are the result of a disease and are not the cause." Now, a chemist can make money from the germ theory of disease but they can't make any money from the vitamin deficiency theory. Thus, which theory should the pharmaceutical industry follow? The one where they can make billions of dollars out of suckers or the one which saves millions of lives but doesn't make any money? Thus, modern medicine was born.
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Quote - "According to you, it would take a small amateur laboratory to destroy the whole medical system. Doing so would earn the respective laboratory trillions dollars. But of course nobody does that, because [excuse 1], [excuse 2] and [excuse 3]. Here, I even left the blanks for you to fill to simplify your task!"

    The pharmaceutical industry isn't going to give one cent to anybody who tries to prove that germ theory is false. Note - Any doctor that doesn't fulfil their quota of pills and prescriptions will be deregistered, so there is no chance that they are going to recommend a healthy diet in place of pills and surgery.
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    The endless claims continue. You claim that poison is responsible for literally every affliction a wild animal gets, a claim you could never adequately support, since it's an absolute assertion. You claim that all doctors are engaging a massive deception with no interest in helping the very people they are treating, another claim you could never adequately support (though this one is even harder, since you're assuming something intangible to be true of everyone: their motivations).

    We've actually discussed leaky gut syndrome (a nebulous term encompassing a broad variety of illnesses that has no basis in establishing cause or treatment), so I won't revisit that, though it's fascinating that you actually acknowledge the existence of germs in any form - and here I thought you were totally against the germ theory of disease. This is still part of another absolute claim: that all infections are the result of leakage from the gut into the bloodstream. Another point you can in no way support to a sufficient degree... not that you ever cared enough to support claims like this. Can't help but notice that you entirely ignored malpractice lawsuits as a deterrent to this kind of behavior.

    Really? This article by Wade Frazier has brought about the end of the medical establishment and utterly displaced it with the most insanely lucrative dietary system in the history of ever? It's an extremely long article with lots of resources cited, but it never provides anything approaching a clinical trial or test of any diet or set of diets against anything from the medical establishment it decries. At best, the whole thing is one massive review article of editorials that engages in a great deal of its own editorializing. It hasn't achieved anything functional from what I can tell.

    ...The article states exactly what I stated: that 90% of people who are unvaccinated are vulnerable to the measles virus, and that the vast majority of those who take it are protected. Don't see how it blows my argument away - the existence of non-responders to the vaccine doesn't invalidate the existence of responders. The YouTube video provides absolutely no evidence. It's solely shock value, and poorly presented at that.
    PlaffelvohfenMayCaesarZombieguy1987
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    You say ......
    The pharmaceutical industry isn't going to give one cent to anybody who tries to prove that germ theory is false.

    My reply .....So you want a reward to prove germ theory is false? Why not just prove it?

    You say ...... Note - Any doctor that doesn't fulfil their quota of pills and prescriptions will be deregistered, so there is no chance that they are going to recommend a healthy diet in place of pills and surgery.

    My reply .....You base these assertions on what exactly?
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @whiteflame

    It appears that none of your references work so I have added my own to help you out. lol

    https://www.nwf.org/Educational-Resources/Wildlife-Guide/Threats-to-Wildlife/Disease

    We can see here that waste chemicals leach into the environment and affect animals in the wild. Pristine nature is getting harder and harder to find. Bats eat fruit which has been sprayed with fungicide. etc.

    Quote - "The idea that doctors would actively invite tremendously damaging lawsuits by ignoring patient problems (and probably actively making them worse) simply for the purpose of handing out prescriptions for drugs that give them, at best, limited kickbacks? Sounds entirely rational. Clearly, you have your finger on the pulse of the medical establishment."

    Reply - You must understand that the medical industry has always been a charlatan industry. Ever since the first witch doctor danced around a camp fire and shook and rattled bones to scare away the evil spirits; doctors have been tricking people into thinking that they have answers to fix disease. You obviously need to spend some time to study leaky gut syndrome to see how germs come from the gut and leak into the blood stream. Germs do not come from the exterior environment. Note - Your gut  bacteria cells outnumber your own body cells. Thus, to ignore their existence like the medical system does is absolutely deceitful. 

    The fact that there are no medical trials in regards to diet means that the medical system hasn't bothered to consider all the possible causes of disease. This blatant omission is totally nonsensical and absurd. It is clearly obvious that if somebody gets sick you must consider all the possible causes of that person getting sick. This would be like a detective going to a murder scene and seeing a body on the floor and a bowl of half finished food on the table. Now, is the detective just going to say the person died of a heart attack without considering if the person was poisoned by the food? Yet, this is exactly what the medical system does on a daily basis. They never consider that the cause of the person's problem could be the food that they were eating. Why do they do this? Answer - Because you don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg. That's why!

    Here's a little bit of light reading for you.

    https://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm


    Quote - "Finally, the reality that not all vaccines are 100% effective can also be tested. I can take 10 vaccinated people, expose them to someone infected with the virus, and see that only 1 walks away with the disease. I can take 10 unvaccinated people, expose them to the same infected person, and see that all or almost all of them walk away with the disease. Absolute protection is not required to be effective. And your YouTube video is an absolute joke and utterly false."

    I guess that Disneyland smallpox reference blows that little argument out of the water. Note - All the people who were vaccinated got small pox. Bam!!!

    You didn't mention the DDT video? I guess the sight of all those poor little children getting sprayed with poisonous DDT was too much for your sensitive soul. lol
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @whiteflame

    It appears that none of your references work so I have added my own to help you out. lol

    https://www.nwf.org/Educational-Resources/Wildlife-Guide/Threats-to-Wildlife/Disease

    We can see here that waste chemicals leach into the environment and affect animals in the wild. Pristine nature is getting harder and harder to find. Bats eat fruit which has been sprayed with fungicide. etc.

    Quote - "The idea that doctors would actively invite tremendously damaging lawsuits by ignoring patient problems (and probably actively making them worse) simply for the purpose of handing out prescriptions for drugs that give them, at best, limited kickbacks? Sounds entirely rational. Clearly, you have your finger on the pulse of the medical establishment."

    Reply - You must understand that the medical industry has always been a charlatan industry. Ever since the first witch doctor danced around a camp fire and shook and rattled bones to scare away the evil spirits; doctors have been tricking people into thinking that they have answers to fix disease. You obviously need to spend some time to study leaky gut syndrome to see how germs come from the gut and leak into the blood stream. Germs do not come from the exterior environment. Note - Your gut  bacteria cells outnumber your own body cells. Thus, to ignore their existence like the medical system does is absolutely deceitful. 

    The fact that there are no medical trials in regards to diet means that the medical system hasn't bothered to consider all the possible causes of disease. This blatant omission is totally nonsensical and absurd. It is clearly obvious that if somebody gets sick you must consider all the possible causes of that person getting sick. This would be like a detective going to a murder scene and seeing a body on the floor and a bowl of half finished food on the table. Now, is the detective just going to say the person died of a heart attack without considering if the person was poisoned by the food? Yet, this is exactly what the medical system does on a daily basis. They never consider that the cause of the person's problem could be the food that they were eating. Why do they do this? Answer - Because you don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg. That's why!

    Here's a little bit of light reading for you.

    https://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm


    Quote - "Finally, the reality that not all vaccines are 100% effective can also be tested. I can take 10 vaccinated people, expose them to someone infected with the virus, and see that only 1 walks away with the disease. I can take 10 unvaccinated people, expose them to the same infected person, and see that all or almost all of them walk away with the disease. Absolute protection is not required to be effective. And your YouTube video is an absolute joke and utterly false."

    I guess that Disneyland smallpox reference blows that little argument out of the water. Note - All the people who were vaccinated got small pox. Bam!!!

    You didn't mention the DDT video? I guess the sight of all those poor little children getting sprayed with poisonous DDT was too much for your sensitive soul. lol
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    I listen to talk back radio and find out what is going on in the community. What do you do?

    Second question - I already have proven it.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten


    You say .....I listen to talk back radio and find out what is going on in the community. What do you do?

    My reply ....Ahh talk back radio recently a guy was on talk back radio saying he was the resurrected Jesus,  well done you. What do I do? Well  for one I don’t get my info from “talk back radio “

    You say ......Second question - I already have proven it.

    My reply .....I will wait to see if that news of your findings filters through on mainstream media  or maybe I should be listening to talk back radio?


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    Akhenaten said:
    @MayCaesar

    Quote - "According to you, it would take a small amateur laboratory to destroy the whole medical system. Doing so would earn the respective laboratory trillions dollars. But of course nobody does that, because [excuse 1], [excuse 2] and [excuse 3]. Here, I even left the blanks for you to fill to simplify your task!"

    The pharmaceutical industry isn't going to give one cent to anybody who tries to prove that germ theory is false. Note - Any doctor that doesn't fulfil their quota of pills and prescriptions will be deregistered, so there is no chance that they are going to recommend a healthy diet in place of pills and surgery.
    Why would it need any money from anyone? Given how confident you are that you are right, it would take a very minimal amount of testing to confirm it to be false. They can probably collect as much money as they need in just a couple of days of a crowdfunding campaign.

    Everything is so-so obvious, but nobody can prove anything. How so? At the same time countless scientific articles debunking your claims are published, and people are yet to find a single persistent fault in them.

    I am sorry, but all of it indicates that you are simply wrong. Nothing shameful about being wrong, but persisting in a clearly wrong narrative - that is shameful.
    PlaffelvohfenApplesaucewhiteflameOppolzerZombieguy1987
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    You don't seem to understand that your were born under and live under a secret dictatorship called the "pharmaceutical industry." The pharmaceutical industry secretly owns all media organisations, all education systems and all government organisations. Thus, from the time that you are born you are brainwashed and programmed by the pharmaceutical industry to be a good slave of the system. You are injected with vaccines on a regular basis as a test of your loyalty to the system. If you refuse to take a vaccination, then the pharmaceutical companies will know that you are a dissident or a conscientious objector amongst the general sheep herd. Thus, all sheep become like internal police regulators of the system and try to shame these conscientious objectors into submission and to conform to the system. Now, drink your Coca Cola little sheep because that's what you have been programmed to do. All those huge bill boards promoting Coca Cola are calling you to your short destiny!

    Reference Aldous Huxley's - Brave New World 
    Soma = Coca cola
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    Talk back radio represents the real world. Which world do you represent?
  • whiteflamewhiteflame 689 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    I haven't been posting references, but OK, let's discuss it. It's been your argument that all animal diseases in the wild are caused by poisons we've introduced into that environment. Where's your proof on that? I'll preclude your response: it doesn't exist. Proving an absolute like this is damn near impossible, and there's clear and ample evidence against it. Of course, if I post any of the numerous articles that detail infectious diseases in wild animals, you will declare them false without any evidence whatsoever, so what's the point of doing research you're going to automatically dismiss?

    For all your talk about the medical industry being nothing but charlatans, you continue to ignore the basic reality that, if anyone ever discovered such a thing were true, they could sue. That's generally how people respond to harm done to them via the medical establishment. If you're correct, then every single patient could do exactly that. Why aren't they? 

    I'm a microbiologist. I'm aware of the importance of gut microbes in our health. They are important, and gut-based illness and injury are problematic. I don't think any doctor worth their salt is ignoring this. That being said, leaky gut syndrome is neither a useful designation nor a particularly specific one. It does not and cannot identify the cause of illness ("leakiness" isn't a cause), and homogenizes a population of patients under a single heading with no purpose or value. You're incredibly wrong about germs not coming from an exterior environment, but I seriously have to ask: if you accept that germs exist within us, why can they not exist without, and why can they not enter through cuts in the same way that they can enter through damaged gut tissue?

    There actually have been basic trials of diets, though again, they're in those nice peer-reviewed articles that you despise so much, and they don't find what you claim exists. Diet affects health; the medical establishment has made that clear for a long time now, and they regularly ask patients about their diets and include assessment of those diets in their appointments. However, it's your argument that diet is responsible for pretty much every form of illness, including everything that is transmissible and every disease that has nothing to do with the gut. 

    I don't know what you're reading, but this (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/whos-risk-measles-maybe-think) is the article you presented me with. First off, it doesn't talk about smallpox - it talks about measles. Second, it points out that, out of 51 cases of measles linked to Disneyland, 6 of those were vaccinated. That's a little over 10% of the total, meaning that the remaining almost 90% were unvaccinated. Last I checked, more than 51 people visit Disneyland on any given day, and chances are, the vast majority of those are vaccinated. Yet, only 6 of those contracted the illness. And here you are saying that "all the people who were vaccinated" got the disease. Your math could use some work.

    I actually did mention the video. DDT is a problem, yes. I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with you. The claim that it's the cause of many transmissible diseases with a wide variety of symptoms seems suspect.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    Akhenaten said:
    @MayCaesar

    You don't seem to understand that your were born under and live under a secret dictatorship called the "pharmaceutical industry." The pharmaceutical industry secretly owns all media organisations, all education systems and all government organisations. Thus, from the time that you are born you are brainwashed and programmed by the pharmaceutical industry to be a good slave of the system. You are injected with vaccines on a regular basis as a test of your loyalty to the system. If you refuse to take a vaccination, then the pharmaceutical companies will know that you are a dissident or a conscientious objector amongst the general sheep herd. Thus, all sheep become like internal police regulators of the system and try to shame these conscientious objectors into submission and to conform to the system. Now, drink your Coca Cola little sheep because that's what you have been programmed to do. All those huge bill boards promoting Coca Cola are calling you to your short destiny!

    Reference Aldous Huxley's - Brave New World 
    Soma = Coca cola
    Impressive little speech, but you failed to answer my question. A very simple question. What is the exact mechanism preventing everyone from exposing the truth which you somehow came to know? Do the doctors sneak up to the dissidents in their sleep and inject a serum that makes them unwillling to oppose the system? What prevents someone like you from starting a crowdfunding campaign, using the collected amount to fund a simple research and then publishing it and earning trillions due to having made the greatest discovery in human history?

    I quite enjoy Coca Cola, and my health is perfect. What about you? You seem to be very upset over everything people say to you, and that might indicate some psychological issues. Are you sure that it is me who is being a sheep, or maybe it is you after all - a sheep to a bunch of conspiracy theorists who need people like you to justify their existence?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    You are trying to shame me into submission little sheeple but unfortunately I know no shame.  The truth is out there and easy to find. Only drug induced sheeple who are high on caffeine can't find it. 
    Note - If you don't look you can't find. 
    Step 1 - Start looking
    Step 2 - Find.
    Note - Psychological issues are caused by consuming sugar and caffeine. I don't consume either so I am free of psychological issues.
    whiteflame
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    So, are you going to answer my simple question or not? I mean, I do not expect it that you are, but it would be nice to get an official confirmation.
  • AkhenatenAkhenaten 106 Pts   -  
    Quote - "What is the exact mechanism preventing everyone from exposing the truth which you somehow came to know?"

    I have already explained the mechanism. It's the education system which brainwashes young children into thinking that vaccination is acceptable.
    Now, can you explain how a germ can get through the bodies protection system.
    1. Skin layer
    2. Digestive system
    3. Immune system - antibodies.
    The germ theory of disease has no explanation of how germs can penetrate through so many layers of defence mechanisms.  
    Leaky gut syndrome is the only logical explanation of how germs can get into the blood. Or if you are real like a doctor, you might inject them in and call it vaccination.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Akhenaten

    No. That would be the mechanism preventing most people from learning the truth, but it is not the mechanism preventing those who have learned it from exposing it.

    I repeat my question: what is the exact mechanism preventing everyone from exposing the truth which you somehow came to know?
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