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Non-existence.

Debate Information

I asked the shorthand in my last question.

Now I want an answer.

1.) Something can not be both the cause and effect of or involved in it's own existence or

2.involved in it's own existence or the existence of anything else if it doesn't exist

As

 before something exists it has no potential to effect it's own existence or, lack of existence.

I want someone to explain to me in a logical format how something can be both it's own cause and effect as atheists claim God doesn't exist.




Jesus is Lord!



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  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    Who created god? 

    You say .....as atheists claim God doesn't exist......I claim I lack a belief in a god or gods , I cannot rule out the possibility 100 per cent but the burden of proof is firmly on the one making the affirmative claim that’s you and fellow believers , not one of yous has so far been able to cobble together an even remotely convincing argument so far
    AlofRI
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    False premise. The universe doesn't have a cause.


    PlaffelvohfenDeeBrainSocks
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5971 Pts   -  
    In theory, nothing prevents infinite loops, including circular loops, from existing. A may be the cause of B, which is the cause of C, which is the cause of A. There can also be infinite loops with no defined origin. Consider the ascending sequence of all integers: it goes from minus-infinity to plus-infinity, and there is no "first" or "last" number in this sequence.

    The Universe does not have to have the "ultimate cause" to exist; it is sufficient that at some point it existed. In fact, "cause" as we know it is only defined for two events happening within the Universe; events happening outside the Universe do not have to have any causal connection to anything happening within the Universe. Universe itself appearing cannot have a cause in the Universe, obviously, since it did not exist "before" it appeared. And more so, "before" itself is not very well defined - according to modern physics, the Big Bang gave birth to time, so "before the Big Bang" is an undefined construct.

    It is important, when discussing physics and logic, to do away with our everyday experiences and expand our minds. The world does not have at large to function anywhere near how we see it function around us, in this limited human environment. What may seem obvious to you from your life experiences, may actually be inaccurate in general.
    PlaffelvohfenBrainSocks
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    tell that to electrons and other particles in the micro world.@jesusisGod777
    BrainSocks
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1484 Pts   -  
    The "fact" that everything has to have a beginning OR a "creator" is an idea created in the human mind. Outside of the human mind …. who knows.
  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    You all haven't considered the dilemma in your logic.

    An immutable , eternal, permanent or constant universe is not subject to change.

    Human origin or existence would be a change is a universe that is in perpetual existence.

    You can not argue that a universe that is not subject to change can cause anything. It itself is not a cause, and can not be if it can not change.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5971 Pts   -  
    @jesusisGod777

    Terms "cause" and "effect" only exist within a physical framework. You cannot talk about cause and effect of some abstract undefined entity. These terms must always be attached to some physical reality.

    So, we have this Universe, in which there are causes and effects. The Universe is the framework within which these terms are defined. But the Universe itself cannot have a cause within its own framework. The Universe cannot cause itself - with the exception of the infinite loop scenario, where the Universe constantly creates itself. But even then, we still can ask a bigger question - "What is the cause of this infinite loop?" - which just as much will make no logical sense.

    See the issue here? Something that itself defines causes and effects cannot have a cause. A cause of something that defines what a cause is - is an undefined entity. 
  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    I wouldn't say undefined as an effect specifically relates to it's cause.

    A universe could not logically create itself.

    A universe equally can not be in perpetual existence.

    If something lacks the ability to control outcomes, as you mentioned, it would never be able to effectively stop or initiate an action. Actions would either be the result of the conditions that influence outcomes, or be unregulated to such a degree we would see constant evidence of actions that indicate this process.

    1. A single event can not be argued to be the cause of human existence, and then cease to exist, if it is 

    1.always in existence and it's influence is directly related to cause and effect

    If There is literally nothing controlling the event of human existence it should be consistently acting in the manner it had.

    To suggest there was a condition for cause and effect to exist in only one instance presumes something to have existed outside of the universe existence as a cause for human existence.

    So either the universe is the result and the cause and effect of the universe are as constant and perpetual as it's own existence

    Or the universe has no control and should produce varied observable outcomes

    The universe would be a mine field

    A lack of control is argued for a reason.

    Anything that lacks the ability to control itself, is not under the influence of opposing forces.


    Arguing, 
    What is not in existence, obviously  has zero influence over and no potential to be a cause for itself

    Nothing can create itself.

    1.anything that is determined not to exist, lacks existence.

    Existence is the only means by which something can effect or have an effect on something else.
    The entire premise of the argument is that human beings must have a cause because they are incapable or effecting the existence they at one point did not have.

    2. Anything that lacks existence does not have the potential to effect the existence it lacks.

    As, 

    What is not in existence does not have the potential to effect it's own existence, as

    1. A lack of it's existencey negates itself as being it's own potential for existence.

    You can not lack an existence and , as what does not exist be the influence of your existence .

    A permanent universe exists within the sense of what it defines.

    A universe that never
    1. Was effected by an external influence 
    2. That is not subject to change as having always existed the way it has
    3. Being ultimately unable to control outcomes as a result of lacking the agency or ability to produce cause and effect


    You would have to work from a neutral point, to determine any results.

    Any limitation, effects the potential of related outcomes.

    A cause, describes something that has control or influence on the effect. To insinuate control, suggests agency.

    A lack of control insinuates the conditions by which something is possible are negated by the greatest influence something has on itself.
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