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bible truth

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you can not prove the validity and truth of a book by pointing at the book and saying the book proves itself. It is circular reasoning.
ZeusAres42PlaffelvohfenAlofRI



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  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2673 Pts   -   edited August 2019
    When contemplating about what is written in the Bible we can't really know if any of it is true or not because we were not there, and nor is there any way of being able to test it. However, there are things that are plausible in the Bible, for example, it is plausible that there was a man called Jesus Christ that existed who was looked up upon by many followers. What is not so plausible, however, is that out of the approximate 200, 000, years with multiple billions of people roaming the earth that a single person out of the last approximately 2000 years was born from a virgin, walked on water, had healing hands that cured the sick, or exercised the Devil out of people. I personally think these were highly exaggerated stories via the disciples, and I also hold the same for the prophet Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse in reference to Islam, or Solomon's vampire in reference to Judaism.

    In regards to the actual truth of the bible what we do know is true is that it was written by people, and is an account of something that did happen in history. There are both plausible and implausible writings of the bible. However, in regards to the truth of those plausible things, we may never know with complete certainty if any of it was true or not; we can only speculate. I will conjecture that there are probably some elements of truth in the content of the bible as well as elements of falsity.

    Humans are not infallible. The bible was written by humans. Therefore, the Bible too is not infallible.  

    AlofRI



  • AlofRIAlofRI 1484 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42 ;
    I couldn't agree more. I've been relating the same argument for years. I believe there WAS a MAN named Jesus, a charismatic man who developed a large following. A following that went against the "politics" of the day and led to his demise. The world was a place of mythological "gods" in the day, and along came a man who was popular enough to be held by some AS a "god". It's not such a stretch to take one ACTUAL man and make him a god, after taking a bunch of mythical SUPER men making them gods: Hercules, Mercury, Neptune, etc. ALL human-like "god creatures" ….. even the Kings and Pharos were given "god status". 
    I think Jesus was an attempt to "soften GOD" , the god that killed first born, turned women to stone for their curiosity, flooded the Earth in an apparent tantrum, saddled us with sin because some woman bit an apple. People were getting a bit tired of an Ogre seeming "god" and wanted a more kindly one. I'm glad that Jesus came along, though the "Son of God" thingy is, to me, an expansion of a myth.
    maxxZeusAres42
  • antant42antant42 13 Pts   -  
    The story of Jesus is unlike any other. The support of the authenticity and accuracy of the New Testament is overwhelmingly more than any other ancient writing (many of which accuracy is never debated) The Bible is infallible in its original context and writing. 

    Jesus’ ministry and most of the New Testament was regarding public events. It would have been easy for people that were there to say “hey! That didn’t happen!”

    There are hundreds of Old Testament predictions of who the messiah would be and they speak specifically to Jesus. (Born of a virgin, sinless, reject by his own people, killed, resurrected, used as a sin offering, Buried in a rich mans tomb, born in Bethlehem)

    Nearly every disciple died for the cause of promoting the gospel. They had no incentive to risk their life if they KNEW they were promoting a lie. (Also, evidence of this outside of the Bible)

    it it is an unusual story and would be hard to take at face value. Jesus claimed to be God. Many insane people claim to be God who are not. However, Jesus has the credentials to back it up. He came back to life and saw hundreds of people! All the romans or Jews had to do was provide a body. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers who would be killed if someone stole the body.

    In a vacuum the Story of Jesus May be hard for you to digest. (Though it is the greatest story in world history) but we just not look at it that way. There is a mountain of support and evidence it is not just a good story.  The probability alone that 1 man could fulfill all the protest is astronomical. Also, my last point is that even if you do not believe you DO believe and know the truth because nature and your conscience are calling you towards God. There is still time to repent and receive forgiveness in the name of Jesus.


    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • antant42antant42 13 Pts   -  
    Can you explain to me what reason is without using reason? No you can not. The truth of the Bible and existence of God is self evident and does not require sources outside the Bible to Justify it.@maxx
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    AlofRI
  • antant42antant42 13 Pts   -  
    Yes, there are a multitude of arguments to be made for Gods existence where evidence can be pulled straight from the Bible. There is no need to look elsewhere because the Bible is truth.  This does not mean that there is NO evidence for God’s existence outside of the Bible. There is sufficient evidence that the Bible is true using sources outside the Bible, textual criticism, archeology, science, human experience, Josephus/ other ancient writings, and others.

    However, one would be justified to make a strong case for God’s existence and the Bible’s truth only using the Bible. It is our foundation from while our worldview comes. It is our 0,0,0.

    The Bible says that it is true. This was also confirmed in Jesus. He came to testify to the truth. The Bible predicts events hundreds or thousand of years before they happen with 100% accuracy. Jesus’ fulfillment of these prophecy’s are a mathematic impossibility unless he was who He claimed to be.

    I do not have a good knowledge of scientology so maybe you can point me the right direction as to why it could be truth.    @Dee
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @antant42

    You say .......

    The Bible says that it is true. This was also confirmed in Jesus. He came to testify to the truth. The Bible predicts events hundreds or thousand of years before they happen with 100% accuracy. Jesus’ fulfillment of these prophecy’s are a mathematic impossibility unless he was who He claimed to be. 

    My reply ....The Quran says it’s true . Muhammad claimed so . He was the last prophet . The Quran claims to predict events with 100 per cent accuracy etc , etc .....Why are you not a Muslim as Muhammad was the last prophet as he came after Jesus ?

    You say....... I do not have a good knowledge of scientology so maybe you can point me the right direction as to why it could be truth.    

    My reply ....I don’t claim any of these religions to be the “truth” but how do you know your one is is you have not investigated other

  • antant42antant42 13 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @antant42

    You say .......

    The Bible says that it is true. This was also confirmed in Jesus. He came to testify to the truth. The Bible predicts events hundreds or thousand of years before they happen with 100% accuracy. Jesus’ fulfillment of these prophecy’s are a mathematic impossibility unless he was who He claimed to be. 

    My reply ....The Quran says it’s true . Muhammad claimed so . He was the last prophet . The Quran claims to predict events with 100 per cent accuracy etc , etc .....Why are you not a Muslim as Muhammad was the last prophet as he came after Jesus ?

    I think you misunderstand my point. Anyone can claim to predict future events. I think you would agree that a proper test for any prophet is whether or not his prophesy comes true. Jesus is the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecy’s. That is different than claiming truth of a future prediction. I would be happy to dig deeper into this with you. If you were to test this I would guide you to see Isaiah 53.

    Side note- Islam claims that our Bible was corrupted and changes the text to fit their agenda. I will prepare more Islamic example this evening I hope. I have more experience with Islam than Scientology.

    You say....... I do not have a good knowledge of scientology so maybe you can point me the right direction as to why it could be truth.    

    My reply ....I don’t claim any of these religions to be the “truth” but how do you know your one is is you have not investigated other

    i disagree with this thought process. Why is it beneficial for me to study other religions and not you? It would be helpful for me to know what your belief is. Atheism? Whatever your belief system is you are making some kind of claim. Even if you claim to not believe anything that is still some kind of claim that would make more learning and study beneficial to you or anyone for that matter.




    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    Bible Truth.

    It's voluntary to believe the Bible.

    Just as its voluntary to not believe in the Bible.

    It equals out to a zero sum game.

    "In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain or loss of utility is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the utility of the other participants."
    maxx
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @antant42


    You say ......The Bible says that it is true. This was also confirmed in Jesus. He came to testify to the truth. 


    My reply ....So what? Why would I care what Jesus said?


    You say ......The Bible predicts events hundreds or thousand of years before they happen with 100% accuracy. Jesus’ fulfillment of these prophecy’s are a mathematic impossibility unless he was who He claimed to be. 


    My reply ........100’s of thousands really ? Give me a few of these mind blowing revelations


    Even if true how does it prove a god?




    You say .......I think you misunderstand my point. Anyone can claim to predict future events. I think you would agree that a proper test for any prophet is whether or not his prophesy comes true. Jesus is the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecy’s.


    My reply .....I don’t believe that 


     You say ........That is different than claiming truth of a future prediction. I would be happy to dig deeper into this with you. If you were to test this I would guide you to see Isaiah 53.


    My reply ....The verse proves nothing 


    You say .....Side note- Islam claims that our Bible was corrupted and changes the text to fit their agenda. I will prepare more Islamic example this evening I hope. I have more experience with Islam than Scientology.


    My reply ......But why believe the Bible over the Quran Muslims can find flaws in the Bible as both are nonsense and contradictory 





    You say ......i disagree with this thought process. Why is it beneficial for me to study other religions and not you? 


    My reply .....But you assume things about me that are incorrect unlike you I have studied most the world’s leading religions and reject them all as childish nonsense 


    You say .....It would be helpful for me to know what your belief is. Atheism? 


    My reply .....My belief? I lack a belief in a god or gods as I’ve seen no evidence to convince me otherwise , if convincing concrete evidence can be shown I would revise my position 


    You say ....Whatever your belief system is you are making some kind of claim. 


    My reply ....I’ve made no claim you have as in there’s a god , you assert this without proof I reject your claims 


    You say ......Even if you claim to not believe anything that is still some kind of claim that would make more learning and study beneficial to you or anyone for that matter.


    My reply .....Learning and study is what led me to the conclusion that to believe in the Christian god is childish and illogical , you admitted you have not studied other religions but yet dismiss them I think it’s you in need of study not I 

    Plaffelvohfen
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    I disagree. You have to examine and study evidence, to see if it's true, or not true. Saying that about the Bible, is like saying that about other documents. If you are truely open minded, you will study the Bible, to see if it's true.
  • antant42 said:
    The story of Jesus is unlike any other. The support of the authenticity and accuracy of the New Testament is overwhelmingly more than any other ancient writing (many of which accuracy is never debated) The Bible is infallible in its original context and writing.
    And what are your reasons that the Bible is infallible? Also, what conclusion are you drawing from your first claims? And how do you whether or not the accuracy of the Bible is debated and by whom?
    Jesus’ ministry and most of the New Testament was regarding public events. It would have been easy for people that were there to say “hey! That didn’t happen!”
    What are these public events?
    There are hundreds of Old Testament predictions of who the messiah would be and they speak specifically to Jesus. (Born of a virgin, sinless, reject by his own people, killed, resurrected, used as a sin offering, Buried in a rich mans tomb, born in Bethlehem)

    Nearly every disciple died for the cause of promoting the gospel. They had no incentive to risk their life if they KNEW they were promoting a lie. (Also, evidence of this outside of the Bible)
    How do you know this and what is this evidence?
    it it is an unusual story and would be hard to take at face value. Jesus claimed to be God. Many insane people claim to be God who are not. However, Jesus has the credentials to back it up. He came back to life and saw hundreds of people! All the romans or Jews had to do was provide a body. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers who would be killed if someone stole the body.
    And how do you know this? What are your reasons for believing that this is the truth?
    In a vacuum the Story of Jesus May be hard for you to digest. (Though it is the greatest story in world history) but we just not look at it that way. There is a mountain of support and evidence it is not just a good story.  The probability alone that 1 man could fulfill all the protest is astronomical. Also, my last point is that even if you do not believe you DO believe and know the truth because nature and your conscience are calling you towards God. There is still time to repent and receive forgiveness in the name of Jesus.
    And again, what are reasons for knowing that our conscience is calling us toward God?

    Furthermore, you talk as if the Bible is the correct book that depicts God, and is ultimately the correct religion to follow. If that is so, then how do you account for the all the contradictions via other religious scriptures - Chameesha Choomshey Torah/Tanakh? The Koran? The Vedas? Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The Zend-Avesta? or The Books of Jeu?

    How do you know that your religion is the correct one and that the New Testament is, and that the New Testament is the true depictions of God and all things God when there are so many other religious scriptures about the very same thing but with different interpretations of this God. Surely, if there is only one God then shouldn't all these religious scriptures be pretty much the same, without much if any contradiction at all?
    Plaffelvohfen



  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42 Jesus being crucified, was a public event.

  • Jesus being crucified, was a public event.

    So was Jesus walking on water, rising from the dead, healing the sick with just his presence, etc. Likewise, it was also a public event when the Aliens invaded America in the movie "US independence day." What exactly is your point? 




  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42 When you're ready to stop trolling, let me know.

  • When you're ready to stop trolling, let me know.

    When you're ready to take issue with what I actually said and answer my question instead of wrongly accusing me of trolling let me know. :)




  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42 Jesus loves you, sweetheart.
    ZeusAres42

  • Jesus loves you, sweetheart.

    And yet it is me who you said was trolling? The irony.

    PS. The tiny Unicorns in my anus love you too sweetheart.




  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42 Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead, for your sins, like He did for mine. I don't care if you think I'm trolling, Jesus loves you, and I love you too. Love is a commandment in the Christian faith, and what a joy it is to be a loving person, like Jesus. If that means I'm playing the troll card, deal me in! ;)
  • antant42antant42 13 Pts   -  
    What argument do you have against the Bible being true. The Bible says that it’s true and that those who say “there is no god” is a fool. It is foolish not to believe.

    If the Bible is not the truth than what is the truth? Also, what is your definition of truth?
    @Dee
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -   edited August 2019
    circular reasoning to point at a book and saying it is true because it says so. I am not saying that there is not some historical truth in the bible; my post is saying that you can not prove the book by the book itself. definition of self evident is :obvious, apparent and not needing to be explained: I do not think that the bible qualifies as to that definition.@antant42
    ZeusAres42Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @antant42

    You say .......What argument do you have against the Bible being true. 


    My reply ....A reading of the Bible would confirm the veracity of my words it’s a book of mainly contradictory nonsense ........


    GE 6:4There were giants on the earth at one time. (Note: No evidence exists to supports this assertion.)

    GE 6:5God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to flood the earth to eliminate mankind. All living things including plants, animals, women and innocent children are also exterminated. (Note: This is like burning down a house to rid it of mice.)

    GE 6:15The size of Noah's Ark was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each pair of the 2,000,000 to 5,000,000 species to be taken aboard.

    GE 32:24-30God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip.

    GE 38:27-29Twins are being delivered. One puts out his hand and the midwife binds it with a scarlet ribbon to identify him as the firstborn. But he draws back his hand, and his brother is born first (thereby obtaining the rights of the firstborn son).

    EX 4:24The Lord sought to kill Moses (one of his own prophets.)

    EX 12:30The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)

    EX 12:37NU 1:45-46The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000.

    EX 17:14God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek. 

    DT 25:19"... you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget." 

    (That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)

    EX 28:34-35Entering the holy place without wearing bells can result in death.

    LE 11:20-21There are winged creatures (birds or insects) that go around on all fours. (Note: There are no birds that go around on four legs, and all insects have six or eight legs.)



    Sadly there’s more of this nonsense .....




    You say .....The Bible says that it’s true and that those who say “there is no god” is a fool. It is foolish not to believe.


    My reply .....The Quran says that it’s true and that those who say “there is no god” is a fool. It is foolish not to believe.




    You say .....If the Bible is not the truth than what is the truth? Also, what is your definition of truth?


    My reply .....Truth about what in particular?

  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    even I would agree that giants probably meant men of statue or heros; although I can agree about one thing; that there is a lot of historical truth to some of the figures and sites in the bible. I think they even found the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by the dead sea which I believe some scholars say the name was mis-translated and is the reed sea. @Dee
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2673 Pts   -   edited August 2019

    Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead, for your sins, like He did for mine. I don't care if you think I'm trolling, Jesus loves you, and I love you too. Love is a commandment in the Christian faith, and what a joy it is to be a loving person, like Jesus. If that means I'm playing the troll card, deal me in!

    And yet you have no reasonable, rational, logical or substantial bases for making that claim other than just faith alone, either via what other people told you or via passages in a book that was written by mere mortals. What's more, is that the book has also changed multiple times over the last 2000 + years. 


    PlaffelvohfenDee



  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    you understand what circular reasoning is. 

    Second, logic is a system, intended as a method to discover truth. It fails, miserably.

    Aristotle stated, if birds fly towards tress that are in motion a bird should not be able to perch because the tree is moving at a rate equal to the motion of a bird.

    Aristotle was a moron. Second your argument is fallacy because what is true, is true, and when someone is stating the truth they can say they are stating the truth.

    In terms of a propositional equation of your logic you stated:

    Y can not suggests it's y because Y would be Y.

    That sounds incredibly and should be treated as such.

    I can tell almost all of you hear have never understood nor understand the mathematical order of logic.

    Second, since the Bible is true, it can state it's true.

    To suggest otherwise would be the statement:

    Truth is not real, however, the statement would have to be true.

    That's what's defined as fallacy.

    Lies can not take the place of truth to attempt to suggest what's true.

    Morons do that and look like morons.

    Jesus is Lord and God. Fact.



  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    You don't*

    Second Christianity's not religion.

    Christianity's based on events.

    Religions based on beilief without the standard of events
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