Incest - Is it moral?

MayCaesar

Like with anything in life, what works for some people does not work for others. It is true that in many cases two sisters marrying each other will end up in a very messy relationship, but it is also true that in other cases people can absolutely make it work. Whatever everyone's opinion is, nobody has the right to prohibit others from engaging in consensual relationships, no matter who they are.

Japan is interesting in that there family relationships are much less stigmatised, and romantic relationships between siblings, children and parents or cousins are not unheard of. A society very strict on many things we here on the West do not think to be a big deal, has an uncharacteristically light stance on inter-family relationships, and there does not seem to be anything happening that would warrant reconsideration of this stance.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

I've just been struggling to work out if Sam Harris's argument is a legitimate use of the slippery slope or not. But then I remembered the more improbable it becomes the more fallacious it is if I am remembering correctly that is. It is highly improbable that you will find two sisters sleeping together behind every closed door even if it was legal. Sam Harris could have just as easily made the same argument about homosexuals I think. For example, if most of the planet was homosexual then there wouldn't be much reproduction, and that could potentially lead to the diminishing of the quality of life. However, that isn't a valid argument to support that homosexuality is immoral.

TKDB

No incest isn't moral.

It's an insult to a quality of family life, as well as insult to community overall.

What is the point to incest, regardless if it's two sisters, and or any other formulation of two other family members engaging in incest?

How is that beneficial to any family?

A female gets pregnant from a male family member, and then do what, seek an abortion because two family members, decided to be reckless?

Incest diminishes the quality of life for Humanity in general, just like Abortion, outside of incest or rape does. 

Dee

Sam Harris sad that if behind every closed doors there were two sisters sleeping together it would significantly diminish the quality of life.

I don't understand what Harris is getting at or how it diminishes quality of life in any way .

If they both consent what objections can be made as how is their relationship harming or affecting others?

AmericanFurryBoy

As long as they aren't gene pooling we’re all good

smoothie

the government should start incest experiments and see how retarded they can make the inbreds, maybe we will get a mutant that is better than us and then everybody can breed with it. I think its moral in this way we should make more retard babies

ZeusAres42

AmericanFurryBoy said:

As long as they aren't gene pooling we’re all good

That's what thing I didn't consider. In addition to that, I think I might need to watch the video again a few more times, just try and get where Sam Harris is going with his argument.

Haydn_E_Sheldon

I gather a simplistic answer to your question could be stated as, who actually defines what morality truly is?

In short.....different strokes for different folks I gather.

Cheers

Vaulk

Because it's always more convenient for morality to be subjective.

Plaffelvohfen

@Vaulk

The first thing to understand is that there is no such thing as objective morality. All morality is necessarily subjective. Here’s why:

All morality is based on individual value judgments regarding any given moral issue at hand. Because nothing has value apart from a subject to value it, all value judgments are subjective. To be objective the value judgment would have to come from the object being valued, and that’s not possible.

So, when it comes to deciding what is morally right and what is morally wrong, a subject (a person) must apply their subjective valuation of the issue before they can decide where they stand. For example, if a person places a high value on the sanctity of marriage, they will probably consider adultery to be immoral because it violates the sanctity of marriage. A person who places a low value on telling the truth might not see lying as immoral.

For morality to be objective, it must be based on something other than a value judgment of some kind, and it must exist apart from human valuations and be immune to them. Thus, it would apply to all humans all the time regardless of context and what any human thinks about the particular moral issue. I can’t think of any moral issue that meets those requirements.

For example, if it was objectively true that lying is immoral, and telling the truth is moral, then all the people who sought to hide Jews from the Germans during WWII acted immorally whenever they lied to German authorities as to the whereabouts of any Jews the Germans sought. Clearly, however, we would understand it to have been immoral for people to give up the locations of Jewish families in hiding if those people were, in fact, trying to hide and protect those Jewish families. So it cannot be true that it is objectively immoral to lie. 

ZeusAres42

With regard to What Harris said, while I don't agree with his last argument being a legitimate slippery slope one, I do resonate with him that some things are just wrong for everyone, while also existing some things that are right for some are not right for others.

kakalam777

Depends on what morality compass you follow, if you follow the morality compass that has "desire" or "evolutionary instincts" as its core then it can be moral or amoral [since according to it sex is expression of love], but if you follow the morality compass of a religion whose core principle is "harm" then it is immoral, because by doing that you are promoting gene pooling and future progeny might become abnormal due to your actions, you might end up influencing others and destroying their family love with sexual love, you might even end up disrupting social norms to some extent. Its no secret humans 4000 years earlier were involved in incest, as it was norm for Egyptian royalty to marry their mother's, sisters and own daughters. Its a same issue with child marriage is it moral or not? isn't it? Because what Egyptians did was form of Child marriage + incest combo.  

Dee

@kakalam777

**** Because what Egyptians did was form of Child marriage + incest combo

Right , yet your hero Muhammad has sex with an 8 year old which you admit you have no problem with....... Oooookay 

kakalam777

@Dee You are going to tell me what is right or wrong? I follow the compass of harm, where when someone is under death threat or in low mortality condition due to hygiene or hunger at least they have an option to survive, and Mohammed only gave an example, he didn't explicitly go around saying "marry children to everyone", If he didn't do it you think other's wouldn't?, the people will have options of burying, slaving, brothel or trafficking? which do you refer to them? You don't know about real life world so better . Go visit Vietnem and see there people selling children to slavery or to brothels, are you helping them, NO, so better .
And I bet your morality standard is "I don't like it so it is wrong" or "everyone says its wrong so its wrong"  "its disgusting so it is wrong" which lack practicability for all aspects of life.
Guess what else is disgusting? eating cats and dogs, and some people still do, and what else is disgusting? killing human, but people still do? do you have same reprehension about that? NO, you just scuff it off like a usual event. You are merely an blindly following cultural opinions like ancient Arabs did by burying there daughters. No difference between them and you.

kakalam777

@Dee
Basically, you are following "desire" and "social norm" moral compass, by that definition, it even becomes legal to have sex with animals unless you don't harm them, because you are following desire and showing expression of love to animal. Now you see why your moral compass is so rotten and useless? because feelings/desires/cultural norm changes with time/place.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

The core principle of the morality compass of all Abrahamic religions is not "harm" but Divine Command... Something is right or wrong, "because god says so", period... 

Dee

 @kakalam777

****You are going to tell me what is right or wrong? 

I feel someone had to as you see peadophillia as perfectly normal 

****I follow the compass of harm

Except where Muhammad abuses a child 

, ***where when someone is under death threat or in low mortality condition due to hygiene or hunger at least they have an option to survive, and Mohammed only gave an example, he didn't explicitly go around saying "marry children to everyone", If he didn't do it you think other's wouldn't?,

Yet Aisha was from a wealthy family and was under no threat except from a 53 year old peadophile 

 ***the people will have options of burying, slaving, brothel or trafficking? which do you refer to them? You don't know about real life world so better . 

Muslim options how wonderful 

***Go visit Vietnem and see there people selling children to slavery or to brothels, are you helping them, NO, so better .

Why would I you said it’s a “moral” duty to abuse them?

***And  I bet your morality standard is "I don't like it so it is wrong" or "everyone says its wrong so its wrong"  "its disgusting so it is wrong" which lack practicability for all aspects of life.

At least I don’t approve of peadophile “prophet” like you  


***Guess what else is disgusting? eating cats and dogs, and some people still do,

I’ve never tasted either but am told both are delicious 

****and what else is disgusting? killing human, but people still do? 

Muhammad killed a fair few so I agree again he’s disgusting on two counts 

***do you have same reprehension about that? NO, you just scuff it off like a usual event.

No I’d sooner eat a cat than abuse a child but that’s Muslim morality for you 

 ***You are merely an blindly following cultural opinions

The only here is you and a supporter of peadophillia once a Muslim is doing it , what “ cultural opinions “ do I follow Osama?

 ****like ancient Arabs did by burying there daughters. No difference between them and you.

Right , so you see no difference between eating dog meat andburying your daughters? Spoke like a true follower of the peado prophet 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen sorry you are wrong, it is harm, harm to you, your partner, your family, your neighbour, your society, your community, your nation, and your planet....its goes like that, at least for Islam.

Yes indeed what is divinely commanded is wrong by you test it practically and you will find one or other sort of harm in those commands linked to it.
We take things like this....if an action or anything is harmful in small quantities it is harmful in larger quantities.
For example, Alcohol....drinking incites lack of self control, violence, sexual assaults etc....so it has range harm from yourself to your nation.
Wasting water, it is harmful for family [extra bills] society and all the way till nation. So, it is not allowed for all as it becomes precursors of bad habits.
Now lets see self harm, if you are dying and has nothing, you can eat dead animals which are normally not allowed. there a spectrum of things you can do to when you are subjected to harm....the morality compass flips when you or your loved ones are under harm, and restores back when you are not under harm. So by that definition suicide is harm in both cases....because self harm is not allowed at all, you can fight back and kill and die fighting when you are subjected to harm but not self bomb yourself.

Western world advertises it as Islamic principle, but 90% of people don't even know what is the core of Islamic morality. 
same with child marriage...only when family can't afford to raise of feed can they marry a young girl who is under mortality threat. Because marrying guarantees inheritance unlike adoption, which depends on the person adopting her. And the girl can use the compulsory charity that a husband has to pay to uplift her parents financial situation, its all interconnected. 

Even the command of beating wive which anti-Islamist take, is under the condition if wife is ill tempered and disloyal...meaning she is flirting around, speaking trash about husband's family member or beating children.
Every command in Islam revolves around "harm", you take homosexuality, adultery, fornication, interest, slavery everything and its jurisprudence command is linked with it. 

kakalam777

@Dee
can you stop quoting my phrases and rewriting them, I know what I wrote and I don't have fish memory like you
You are merely following social customs so stop talking about morality with me, you don't know the difference between practicality and feelings.

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
sorry you are wrong, it is harm, harm to you, your partner, your family, your neighbour, your society, your community, your nation, and your planet....its goes like that, at least for Islam.

Yes indeed what is divinely commanded is wrong by you test it out practically and you will find one or other sort of harm in those commands linked to it.
We take things like this....if an action or anything is harmful in small quantities it is harmful in larger quantities.
For example, Alcohol....drinking incites lack of self control, violence, sexual assaults etc....so it has range of harm attached to it from yourself to your nation.
Wasting water, it is harmful for family [extra bills] society and all the way till nation. So, it is not allowed for all as it becomes precursors of bad habits.
Now lets see self harm, if you are dying and has nothing, you can eat dead animals which are normally not allowed. there a spectrum of things you can do to when you are subjected to harm....the morality compass flips when you or your loved ones are under harm, and restores back when you are not under harm. So by that definition suicide is harm in both cases....because self harm is not allowed at all, you can fight back and kill and die fighting when you are subjected to harm but not self bomb yourself.

Western world advertises it as Islamic principle, but 90% of people don't even know what is the core of Islamic morality. 
same with child marriage...only when family can't afford to raise of feed can they marry a young girl who is under mortality threat. Because marrying guarantees inheritance unlike adoption, which depends on the person adopting her. And the girl can use the compulsory charity that a husband has to pay to uplift her parents financial situation, its all interconnected. 

Even the command of beating wife which anti-Islamist take, is under the condition if wife is ill tempered and disloyal...meaning she is flirting around, speaking trash about husband's family member or beating children.
Everything command in Islam revolved around "harm", you take homosexuality, adultery, fornication, interest, slavery of prisoner of wars everything in its jurisprudence command is linked "harm". 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
trust me, pick 10 muslims and ask them what is the core for Islamic morality, they will also say the divine command too, but if you analyse the situations and practicality of command from educational perspective it narrows down to "harm"

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

Stoning is harmful, cutting hands as a punishment for theft is harmful, forcing women to live in cloth bags is harmful, and the list goes on and on... The only religion that is actually based on not doing harm is Jainism.

Islam, like all other Abrahamic religion, base their morality in the Divine Command Theory, which is : Something is right or wrong because God says so, it is obvious to anyone not already brainwashed... 

Dee

@kakalam777

****can you stop quoting my phrases and rewriting them,


I just want everyone to see your stupidity in print 

****I know what I wrote and I don't have fish memory like you

Yet you accused me of posting a debate topic I never posted , an unwatered pot plant has more intelligence than you 

***You  are merely following social customs

Like what?

***so stop talking about morality with me,

You need someone to educate you Osama 

***you don't know the difference between practicality and feelings.

I know it takes a 53 year old Muslim to think it “practical “ to abuse a child what have feelings got to do with it?

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
Yes stoning is harmful, so is exposing your sin of adultery, are you a porn star? the ruling says punishment is only prescribed when the offender confesses 4 times or 4 witnesses testify against him/her, so why are you publicising? BTW its flogging not stoning. Stoning is command of Judaism. And only when both male and female are married and still committed adultery then death. They cause "harm" to 2 families.
Yes indeed cutting hands is wrong, then what do you call stealing when you know your hands would be cut? Is asking some people for money too much of a burden?
And dressing modestly is harm? I wouldn't personally recommend going like a letter box, the rest is up to the women to decide, they have 1000s of fashion options.

kakalam777

@Dee

You know I can flip it over and call it expression of love between husband and wife irrespective of age, further like I said you in another post "you can't compare moral standards of today and project on a 1440 year old socially accepted dead husband and wife, unless there was a law stating in ancient Arab that child marriage is wrong". Get me in writing the Ancient Arab judicial law that states marrying children is against social customs and is immoral by state law.....if you can't do that then . 

This is why I keep saying you don't know difference between desire, social norm, and practicality of morality. Your whole argument is illogical.

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
Subjective morality is not beneficial to humanity, because it is influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. And none of these are constant throughout a persons life.
For example a man who had flings and premarital sex, doesn't want his children to do the same unless they are married, because in his opinion they are not moral, I have seen this happened.
So linking morality to things that change from generation to generation is foolish and not beneficial for social progression.
Real life situations and opinions don't depend on logical sophism.
You can support fornication, adultery, zoophilia just by saying morality is subjective and go on with it. Ah wait these things already happening, there are people in Norway requesting legalisation of zoophilia and it is legal in some US states.
By that standard, drunk raping and robbery can also be justified... because this the person is enjoying it. And as long as no one is killed its just taking some cash, since no one is harmed, it is moral.
The whole subjective morality thing is fallacy.

Dee

@kakalam777

**** You know I can flip it over and call it expression of love between husband and wife irrespective of age, further like I said you in another post


Right , so a 6 year old girl has feelings of love for a 53 year old ....Oooookay 


 *****"you can't compare moral standards of today and project on a 1440 year old socially accepted dead husband and wife, unless there was a law stating in ancient Arab that child marriage is wrong". 

Sex between a 53 year old and an 8 year old was never right , so what’s your excuse for child marriages today in Muslim society?

***Get me in writing the Ancient Arab judicial law that states marrying children is against social customs and is immoral by state law.....if you can't do that then . 

Why would I Osama?  I know Arabic law allowed for it that’s Muslims for you

***This is why I keep saying you don't know difference between desire, social norm, and practicality of morality. 

But yet I and others know abusing an 8 year old is wrong 

****Your  whole argument is illogical.

Says a dummy who thins a 53 year old having sex with an 8 year old is logical .....got ya

kakalam777

why? don't 6 years old love their father and grandfather? If you are follower of subjective morality like you claim, even incest is morally upright if both people love it. So don't go projecting your morality standards that are full of fallacy and change to judge others.
And I must correct you the consummation was at 9. But he never impregnated her, because that can cause harm. Like I said you are just group following your social customs and not using intellect, but emotions. Emotions are useless when discussing morality.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

Subjective morality is not beneficial to humanity

And that is your subjective opinion and it's utterly irrelevant anyway as it doesn't say anything about the subjective or objective nature of morality... Stop lying to yourself and own your Divine Command basis.

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
No this is not subjective opinion but a real life practical fact.
All your statements are only beautiful in logic, but are not practically beneficial.
If you follow subjective morality anything you like in your own house can become moral and immoral based on your personal opinion.
Morality can be both subjective and objective if you link it to action that can "harm", and that is what I follow.
if its harmful to myself and other its immoral for me.
If its beneficial to myself and others then it is moral for me.
Subjective morality is a pathetic way to justify actions and fulfil ones desire.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

Whether it is practical or not, beneficial or not is irrelevant... Whether someone holds murder or rape to be moral doesn't make murder or rape legal... Legality and morality are ontologically distinct...

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
I am not trying to link legality and morality in the least, does it look like I am doing that? Legality is dependent on state law did I say anything about that? Ah yes, zoophilia is legal in some states, so it makes it morally correct, am I right?

But  I am talking about personal moral compass here.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

You actually do when you attach some misguided and subjective notions of "practicality" or "benefice" to moral... Those notion only makes sense in regards to legality... 

kakalam777

@kakalam777
Yes indeed, because to be practical and beneficial is what will socially progress the society. 
I think people who prefer subjective morality are self absorbed with themselves and don't take the society progression as their norm. I am talking about myself here, I take everything in broader spectrum, not just myself and put myself in other people shoes to identify what could be morally correct and beneficial. 
Well now I know why people prefer subjective morality so much - due to selfishness.
 

AmericanFurryBoy

@kakalam777
It seems that all you can do is try and hide behind a thin veneer of “religion.” Maybe instead of being violent and insulting people, you should take others situations and opinions into consideration. It is wrong to marry children, it is wrong to violate children, it is wrong to have sex with family members unprotected, and it is wrong to blame religion, god, or “poverty” for aforementioned actions.

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
I already did... your pointing out is irrelevant. That @Dee person is very very verbally offensive and I treat people how they treat me in a verbal conversation, as long as I don't go out of bounds and harm them by personal attacks too much.

AmericanFurryBoy

@kakalam777
Would you like to quote the part where you did?

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
I was discussing the concept of morality of a religion so of course I would discuss all that and my and Dee's conversation is over several threads so, you don't have to interfere with whom I speak politely and whom I don't, and he don't deserve my politeness.
Thank you for your concern. I will take your points into consideration.

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
This was my statement from another thread I said to @Dee before I started being verbally offensive.

since you called me on my post in another thread I am going to be extremely crass, rude and offensive...I do apologise for my statements beforehand though.

Dee

@kakalam777

***why? 

Why is having sex with a child wrong? Really? You need me to tell you

***don't 6 years old love their father and grandfather?

Yes , but where I live that doesn’t mean they’re consenting to sex but then again if you’re a “prophet “ it’s “different isn’t it?

 ***If you are follower of subjective morality like you claim, even incest is morally upright if both people love it.

Nothing wrong with incest if both agree to it? Why’s it wrong?

 ****So don't go projecting your morality standards that are full of fallacy and change to judge others.

I know it’s a fallacy to “condemn“ a 53 Year old abusing a child 

***And I must correct you the consummation was at 9. 

It wasn’t ,it was 8 but how very kind of Muhammad not to abuse the child till she was 9 

****But he never impregnated her, because that can cause harm. 

Prove it? 

****Like I said you are just group following your social customs and not using intellect

Where is “intellect” needed to tell you child rape is wrong?

, ****but emotions. Emotions are useless when discussing morality.

Well yes why worry about the  emotions of an 8 year old about to be abused by a 53 year old?

Dee

@AmericanFurryBoy

Spot on , this guy accused me of statements I never made after I asked him a simple question then he went verbal , I’ve one rule treat me with respect and if you don’t for every punch you throw you’re getting two back 

Dee

@kakalam777

Incorrect , go back to my first response to you where instead of admitting you were wrong you tried to act the “tough guy and like all cowards instead of apologizing you thought you would  boss me of which you haven’t a chance 

Dee

@kakalam777

There you go still to cowardly to admit you accused me in the wrong after initially asking you a simple question you couldn’t answer and still cannot 

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

I think people who prefer subjective morality...

It's not a question of preference... I would really prefer for morality to actually be objective, it would make things a lot simpler but my wish , or yours, doesn't make it so... 

Dee

@kakalam777

Your dishonesty is appalling why not tell @AmericanFurryBoy about our very first exchange where you accused me of something I never said then sulked like a child when corrected? If you’re too cowardly to admit such I can post it up

kakalam777

***Yes , but where I live that doesn’t mean they’re consenting to sex but then again if you’re a “prophet “ it’s “different isn’t it?

So what if he was a prophet? He was human first. Where did you get the idea that prophet should not follow the customs of society? He didn't used to eat pizza, burger and fast food too? are we suppose to not eat that as well? what logic is that?
They didn't even have water filtration system, why then did God not inspire him to make scientific advancement to avoid death? Are we suppose to drink unfiltered water too? 

she never had children, what prove do you want from me, read the history

****Where is “intellect” needed to tell you child rape is wrong? 
so according to you incest with your own daughter is not child rape but with legal wife who is of puberty and having a sexual urge is? Sex is expression of love and when wife is having sexual urges it is duty of husband to satisfy her? Should a husband tell her to go masturbate in another room?
Further,  Did she ever complained, even after his death? did you read her biography what she said about her husband? when the socially accept legal wife is not complaining about physical or metal abuse about her husband on what basis you are? Get me a statement from Aisha that said  she was sexually abused? if you can do that I will accept that child marriage of 1440 years is immoral. And if you can't and you never will, then you can just instead of getting in between a relationship of husband and wife. 

kakalam777

@Dee
I didn't accused you, it was an honest mistake of identity crisis and I already said I was wrong.

AmericanFurryBoy

@kakalam777
“ so according to you incest with your own daughter is not child rape but with legal wife who is of puberty and having an sexual urge is? Sex is expression of love and when wife is having sexual urges it is duty of husband to satisfy her? Should a husband tell her to go masturbate in another room?”


THATS WHAT WE’RE SAYING! CHILD MARRAIGE IS WRONG!

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
Let me get this clear,  child sex of daughter is alright but child marriage is wrong? 

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
Ok then let me ask your opinion 

We talking about Ancient Arabia here. Past in Ancient Arab, where female were considered burden and buried alive at infancy, and this prophet comes and tells them to stop. Then people who stopped had children and the new girl progeny which are born is still a burden financially and socially for many people and Adoption is not a option because Arabs didn't want women as daughters altogether, they buried their own daughters do you think they will adopt and raise others? So, How will you integrate these new females into society with a best status, when you don't want to up-bring them to adulthood yourself due to culture and financial crises?

1. Make them slaves and give slave status, the are free for sex obviously.

2. Make them wives, and give them wife status and you have inheritance and property for wife and if divorce you get alimony. And marrying in early puberty was normal due to high mortality rates. 

3. Put them in brothels and again for pleasure

4. Bury them back alive again. which was already a normal practice

5. Human trafficking to other places to sold as slaves or pleasure

Arab rich used to say why have them when you can't use them and Poor say why keep them when you can't feed them. Those that can afford already had slaves for labours.

Since you claim child marriage is wrong and what he did was immoral, give a moral solution of above scenario.