to the religoius

Sand

Unfortunately, because they didn't mistakenly partake of the tree of good and bad.

They willfully chose to disobey. They chose man to rule over God's rule.

All decisions are up to God, but to my understanding, Adam and Eve will not get a second chance.

This whole scenario is because Adam and Eve's offspring did not have a choice.

So Jesus takes the place of Adam as the last Adam.

By replacing Adam Jesus gives all mankind a chance to choose God as ruler.

Everyone on earth will have to answer the question of sovereignty and integrity. That is why Satan is rereleased.

The answer is easy. Choose God over yourself out of love. Jesus did it three times.

MayCaesar

@Sand

"Choose God out of love, or be punished for eternity". Some love it is...

The way you guys talk makes Satan look like a hero and God like an oppressive tyrant. In this context, Adam and Eve's choice to pursue their own goals was the first act of civil disobedience in the history of humanity. If the God is indeed the primal being out there, then they will probably be punished - but human history shows that no tyrant rules forever, and God's days of reckoning will come as well. And if the God is merely an impostor and herself is a creation of something higher, then obviously Adam and Eve will go to a very nice place, while the God will probably be put through a long rehabilitation process so she can reflect on some of the things she did.

I am not religious, and you have no idea how strange these authoritarian values look from the outside. This praise of god for punishing people makes Stalin's Soviet Union look like a land of the free.

Sand

You listen to false information. No one is being punished for eternity, that is a Religious myth.

No one is truly free.

Even in the USA, you have laws, that you must follow.

Sand

When the government abandons law it invites anarchy.

There are probably over 1 million laws in the USA.

Yet you call God an oppressive tyrant, for giving Adam and Eve one law.

You call Satan a Hero?

When disaster strikes who is more at fault the or the one who trusted them.

A lie hurts forever because it can cost you everything.

Nevertheless, your response is exactly why Satan is rereleased.

People knowing he is a will be lead to believe him.

MayCaesar

@Sand

I do not worship the US government either. That said, the US government, at least, does not condemn the entire species for one person picking one apple from a tree and eating it.

Satan does seem to be a hero, or, at the very least, the lesser evil of the two, based on what Christianity states. Lying is not the end of the world; everybody lies. I can survive a lie, while I certainly cannot survive a guillotine.

I do not believe in either the God or the Satan. I am just suggesting a more reasonable interpretation of the stories from the Bible, than the "official" version pushed by the church.

Dee

Unfortunately, because they didn't mistakenly partake of the tree of good and bad

Which would surely make any rational being question what crime is so great that it merits an eternity in Hell? 

Then another simple question if Jesus died for our sins why would someone be sent to Hell?

Finally if I as a mere human being can forgive others how does an “all loving “ god not? I’m by far morally superior to your god

@Sand

maxx

hm@Dee

Dee

@maxx

H M Dee

His Majesty Dee , you’re stating the obvious now 

maxx

actually in all fairness, according to the bible satan does not rule over hell and since as you being an expert on it, you should know that; as well satan him-self gets thrown into the lake of fire. of course if one looks far enough back in the earliest translations of the bible, eventually even the wicked will be released from hell but church leaders took that out because they feared people would sin because they would know their suffering would not last@Dee

Dee

@maxx

***actually in all fairness, according to the bible satan does not rule over hell
where did I say he did?

****and since as you being an expert on it, you should know that; as well satan him-self gets thrown into the lake of fire

Where did I say he didn’t? I am indeed an authority on it and indeed on most subjects 

****of course if one looks far enough back in the earliest translations of the bible, eventually even the wicked will be released from hell but church leaders took that out because they feared people would sin because they would know their suffering would not last


Where does it state this?

maxx

it no longer states it in the bible;  it was taken out as I have said.  apparently you are only an expert upon the bible as it is written today, not its earliest history and compilation.  perhaps as I have suggested once, you should do more research of your own.  I will however  enclose a link about what the earliest church leaders believed.  @Dee

maxx

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/richardmurray/2019/07/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

Sand

There is no eternal torment in Hell.

That was a myth promoted by religious leaders to get people to continue to attend church.

Hell is a symbolic place of the dead.

Man condemned himself to hell.

God has been working to get man out of hell.

Just like a parent who gives rules to their children.

God gave a rule to Adam and Eve.

Nevertheless, if a child chooses to leave their parent's authority.

It does give them freedom from the rules and they have endless possibilities to go up, but the also have endless possibilities to go down.

Adam and Eve chose to leave God's authority.

They were warned about the consequences of their choice, God did not cause their death, Adam and Eve caused their death.

God wanted to find a way to redeem the offspring and give everyone else a choice.

Which would surely make any rational being question what crime is so great that it merits an eternity in Hell?

By breaking your relationship with the giver of life, you condemn yourself to death.

Then another simple question if Jesus died for our sins why would someone be sent to Hell?

Jesus died for our sins which will allow God to empty hell after the second challenge has been finished.

God does not send people to hell. Hell is the symbolic place of the dead. When good and bad people die they all go to hell.

Finally, if I as a mere human being can forgive others how does an “all-loving “ god not? I’m by far morally superior to your god.

God forgives everyone. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean he shields them from their own actions.

When the second challenge is finished, God will resurrect everyone from the grave (Hell), giving everyone the choice.

I hardly believe you are superior to God, more likely you have traits similar to him.

Dee

@maxx

***It no longer states it in the bible;  it was taken out as I have said.  

Where did I state anything on the  matter? You have just invented a whole argument I never made and answered it 

****apparently you are only an expert upon the bible as it is written today, not its earliest history and compilation. 

Incorrect I’m an expert on all aspects again where have I made an argument stating what you imagine I stated!

****perhaps as I have suggested once, you should do more research of your own

You don’t know the meaning of the word research it’s an alien concept to you 

****I will however  enclose a link about what the earliest church leaders believed.

I care not as you seem to be arguing  with yourself regards arguments I never made . Are you mentally unwell?

  @Dee

maxx

again the original translation of eternal punishment  was basically a type of correction, to reform.  it is obvious that you know this and it is obvious that you know hell is just a place where sinners go until they return to the fold so to speak.  however you cling to a certain theme in your answers as to why god would punish people forever if he is an all loving god.  the answer is( if we are to assume for the sake of the debate than he is real)  he does not.  it is a place of reform.  yes I am sure that you can bring up the word eternity in the bible but you should know by your own self possessed knowledge that translations can mean many things and that the church leaders used forever in an attempt to scare and coerce people into staying holy.@Dee

Dee

@maxx

****again the original translation of eternal punishment  was basically a type of correction, to reform.  

Was it indeed , yet the Catholic chruch of which I once was would disagree with your contention

***it is obvious that you know this and it is obvious that you know hell is just a place where sinners go until they return to the fold so to speak.  

Incorrect the Catholic did not state this the opposite in fact 

***however you cling to a certain theme in your answers as to why god would punish people forever if he is an all loving god.  

I’m following what god states in his own words 

***/the answer is( if we are to assume for the sake of the debate than he is real)  he does not.  

So you say , I disagree 

***it is a place of reform.

Again I disagree 

  ****yes I am sure that you can bring up the word eternity in the bible but you should know by your own self possessed knowledge that translations can mean many things

Then they’re not accurate translations 

**** and that the church leaders used forever in an attempt to scare and coerce people into staying holy

Read a Bible 

maxx

read the link and see for yourself.   read the tyndale bible .  I said the EARLIEST church leaders. the ones who decided what when in and what was to be left out. since you disagree, then apparently you are not as well-versed in the compilation of the original books of the bible as you lead people to believe. in this matter your majesty, you are incorrect and you are just to vain to admit it.  hell was once considered by the church leaders as a place of punishment until the sinners reformed enough to be released. @Dee

AlofRI

@maxx ;

"......….Heaven, or the lake of fire"?

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for the next episode to be written. It's all up to the imagination of the authors. That's the thing with fiction, writers can make up their own endings …. the big "twist". 

maxx

well you can not exactly call the entire books fiction; perhaps the underlining theme, yes.  there are a lot of biblical sites that have been discovered over the years, as well as many of the figures actually did exist@AlofRI

Dee

@maxx

*****read the link and see for yourself.   

Why would I read a link , I only need refer to what you’ve never read as in the Bible 

****read the tyndale bible .  

Funny 

****I said the EARLIEST church leaders. the ones who decided what when in and what was to be left out. since you disagree, then apparently you are not as well-versed in the compilation of the original books of the bible as you lead people to believe. 

I’m quoting the Bible as it was originally written you clot 

****in this matter your majesty, you are incorrect and you are just to vain to admit it.  

I’m afraid your wrong yet again you really need to stop copy and pasting others peoples views 

****hell was once considered by the church leaders as a place of punishment until the sinners reformed enough to be released .

Was it indeed ? So what?

Here is what you said ...... *****however you cling to a certain theme in your answers as to why god would punish people forever if he is an all loving god.  the answer is( if we are to assume for the sake of the debate than he is real)  he does not.  

Well according to god himself he does but then again you wouldn’t know that , have a look at how many times “eternal” is mentioned you clown , I can give you yet more verses as I know you will stupidly now come up with another pile of B S like you do every time I attempt to educate you ....

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

maxx

you simply can not debate with out name calling.  really shows intelligence. eternal stems from the words kolasis aionios which mean to inflict punishment for wrong doing. basically it means to chastise someone with remidial punishment until one rehabilitates. unless you understand that so many words in the bible can easily be mistaken for a word close to iot or one with different meaning, then your so called expertise fails. you are beginning to believe your own fallacy. yes god says eternal but the bible was written by men and changed in so many ways since it was once written that there are so many parts of it that simply does not resemble what it originally was. there are many many errors in todays bible and as well many errors and down right fabrications in some of the translations; you seem to know that yet here you are, steadfastly adamant that the word eternal did not originally mean something else when first written @Dee

Sand

Jude 1:7

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Matthew 25:46

Revelation 21:8

Matthew 13:50

These scriptures are referring to the second death.

Not to death.

Symbolism once again.

Hell is the symbolic place of the dead. Everyone goes there.

The second death is the symbolic place of destruction.

The difference between the two is one has a chance for resurrection, the other does not.

Since symbolism was used to help people understand, the illustration for destruction is fire.

When something is burned it is destroyed forever.

Thus the words "everlasting destruction".

The 'punishment' part is God will not resurrect the ones who chose the second death.

The words "blazing furnace" were part of a parable that Jesus told, as an illustration of everlasting destruction or everlasting cutting off, meaning no resurrection.

In Revelation, it talks about Judgement day (1000 years), this is the time when Hell will be emptied, meaning everyone will be resurrected under God's rulership.

Satan will be released.

Everyone will get a chance to chose God or themselves.

Those who chose God will live everlasting, those who chose themselves will die off with no resurrection.

Remember the challenge is selfishness vs love.

There is no one who is burned for eternally.

God said in Jeremiah 7:31 about burning people, "I didn't command this, and it never entered my mind!"

The myth of eternal torment was made by religious leaders to get people to continue to attend church.

No one can burn anyone and be considered loving.

God is spoken hundreds of times as being good and righteous.

Meaning he is not a hypocrite, he abides by the standards that he requires of men.

Dee

@maxx

****you simply can not debate with out name calling. 

I didn’t call you a derogatory name I called you a clot this is a statement of fact , facts are alien territory to you 

****really shows intelligence. 

Indeed calling things as they are demonstrates intelligence , thank you 

****eternal stems from the words kolasis aionios which mean to inflict punishment for wrong doing. basically it means to chastise someone with remidial punishment until one rehabilitates. 

Nonsense , what apologetic site did you get that from?

****unless  you understand that so many words in the bible can easily be mistaken for a word close to iot or one with different meaning, 

Nonsense , it’s funny how any negative traits applied to god are “mistranslations” but positive ones are accepted 

***then your so called expertise fails. you are beginning to believe your own fallacy. 

My expertise is spot on as usual 

****yes god says eternal .

Ha , Ha , I know and you’ve just defeated your own argument well done 

***but the bible was written by men and changed in so many ways since it was once written that there are so many parts of it that simply does not resemble what it originally was. 

You mean like god saying eternal?

***/there are many many errors in todays bible and as well many errors and down right fabrications in some of the translations; you seem to know that yet here you are, steadfastly adamant that the word eternal did not originally mean something else when first written

Yet you said god said eternal beaten again by your own stupidity 

Dee

@Sand

****

The myth of eternal torment was made by religious leaders to get people to continue to attend church.

It’s wasn’t , it’s all there in the Bible 

***No  one can burn anyone and be considered loving.

I agree, I never said your god was loving quiet the opposite in fact as your god is the essence of evil according to the Bible 

***/ God is is spoken hundreds of times as being good and righteous.

Yet he murders , maims and tortures his creations 

****Meaning he is not a hypocrite, he abides by the standards that he requires of men.

He certainly is as he says one thing and does another , I hold myself to a higher standard than a god that destroys 25 million of his subjects (low estimate) 

maxx

you are plain   I wish there was an iq test to allow individuals to be on  here so you would be forced to leave; you contradict yourself so many times that you fail to realize what you claim any more, and perhaps you should join an old hens gossip site or a high school debate team, both are just as immature as you are.  LOOK IT UP DUMMY! I though you said that you did research yet you refuse to look something so simple up because you refuse to be shown that you are wrong. I am not making this up.  you are not spot on and all the linguists in the world would laugh you out of existence  dee stomps her foot and says so what, calls names and instead of checking for herself goes hides behind her façade of self importance. I provided you a link and can provide more yet you refuse to read the let alone believe something that will shatter any kind of belief that you have in that acorn size brain of yours. I can see your reply now, so what,  I do not need to look him up, the experts are clearly wrong and dee is right.) do you realize how much of a fool that you are making of yourself?  wow!! @Dee

Plaffelvohfen

I just want to make sure everyone realize that you're talking about fictional venues (Heaven & Hell) & characters (Adam, Eve, God, etc) described in a work of fiction, compiled over centuries into a single book that was reedited and modified many times... 

It's like arguing if the hood of little red riding hood was really red or actually burgundy...  

maxx

yes that is a gain-say, however the point of this debate is based upon an assumption. dee brought the idea of eternity and so did may. if one is to bring up the color of the hood, then one should make sure it wasn't originally a different color to begin with.  dee refuses to be proven wrong and all I was doing was pointing out what anyone could easily look up.  the original translation of where we got the word eternity was changed from what it was ; a form of punishment over time to what is in the bible now; forever. regardless if god is fiction the bible exists and I am just trying to point out to dee that (if real but according to the written bible) god does not  throw people into hell forever.@Plaffelvohfen

Dee

@maxx

****you are plain .

Says a dummy who thinks raw rabbit skin cures cancer ......You said ..... . yes god says eternal .....your own words dumbass remember?

***wish there was an iq test to allow individuals to be on  here so you would be forced to leave;

So do I as it would certainly find you out a nut who believes Atlantis was destroyed with a death ray because Cayce said so 

***/you contradict yourself so many times that you fail to realize what you claim any more, and perhaps you should join an old hens gossip site or a high school debate team, both are just as immature as you are. 

I put you in your place Doofus you claimed Hell Fire was not for eternity then said god said it was , you’re an

 ****LOOK IT UP DUMMY! I though you said that you did research yet you refuse to look something so simple up because you refuse to be shown that you are wrong. I am not making this up.  you are not spot on and all the linguists in the world would laugh you out of existence  dee stomps her foot and says so what, calls names and instead of checking for herself goes hides behind her façade of self importance

You stated Hell was not for eternity then said it was because .....god said so Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

***/provided you a link and can provide more yet you refuse to read the let alone believe something that will shatter any kind of belief that you have in that acorn size brain of yours. I can see your reply now, so what,  I do not need to look him up, the experts are clearly wrong and dee is right.) do you realize how much of a fool that you are making of yourself?  wow!

You’ve been trapped again and now like the red faced coward you are attempt to lie your way out ....wow!!!

mad Maxx said .... . yes god says eternal .......now he’s crying because he’s been caught lying 

maxx

no  I said the bible says eternal, but I also said that the word meant something else, remember;?  now a days it means forever and that is why they put it in the bible.  once again, it was originally written and believed that hell was not forever; if you refuse to believe that, nor refuse to look it up yourself, nor read links showing it then why are you even on this site? dee says. I am not to believe it, nor will I do the research on it, nor will I read any information about it or anything that may prove dee wrong.  if you call that debating,  wow you are one masturbator .  look it up@Dee

Plaffelvohfen

@Dee

 I am just trying to point out to dee that (if real but according to the written bible) god does not  throw people into hell forever.

But that doesn't solve the multi version problem... It's not just a question of translation as some original text were in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek that were then translated to latin, english and so on...

You chose the Tyndale Bible (which is greatly incomplete with regards to the Old Testament btw...) in which it may well be depicted as you say, but someone might be using another version in which it is not... Both of you would be right in your respective point of view since you both use different references...  

So you would be left with a new problem to solve, that is : Which version is the "true" version... And it would be a fallacy to speak of a "true" bible because each denomination has its own "true" bible and we then get into some version of the "no true Scotsman fallacy"...

Protestantism definitely sees Hell as eternal and permanent, the teaching of the Catholic Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. The LDS Church and the Unity Church doesn't hold the belief of a permanent hell...

maxx

yes, but I suggest you may read the link at least that I provided@Plaffelvohfen

Plaffelvohfen

@maxx

It doesn't matter to the millions of Catholics and Protestants what the original meaning might be or not, so it's irrelevant really... 

maxx

irrelevant to whom?  actually it should matter to all of the religious sector to understand what their bible is and how it was compiled and what was land when it was put in and what was left out; as well on how it was translated. I have read several old bibles and each generation gets new changes and they are already past the point where it doesn't quite mean or say once what it used to and it the future probably even less. does it matter to others who are not religious?   perhaps it should even if it is only from a historical point of view.@Plaffelvohfen

AlofRI

@maxx ;

Yes. I don't argue with the existence of a "MAN" named Jesus, OR even his charisma. I largely agree with his (alleged) ideology. I'm glad he (likely) did exist. I'm even happy that he (kind of) replaced that old Jewish "god" who was too cruel (allegedly) for me to follow … let alone "worship". History needs to be authenticated. We need to keep working at that. In the meantime, we have to look at history through realistic glasses, not mythological idealism.

Sand

I believe we all have gotten off-topic.

The questions are:

What do you believe will happen to Adam and Eve?  Heaven or the lake of fire?

It is written "to the religious".

We need to write another topic to discuss the other arguments.

maxx

I agree; my own ideas is adam and eve were just used and I do not know if they deserve being punished for what was so obvious a set up. @Sand

Sand

You are probably right.
God may feel they deserve life.
No one would question his decision to give them life. 

Dee

@maxx

****no  I said the bible says eternal, but I also said that the word meant something else, remember;?  

Which is what we are talking about and not your opinion on the matter , according to Tyndale maybe but so what his translations were not accepted at the time so why should they be now to over a billion Catholics to start?

****now a days it means forever and that is why they put it in the bible.

Yet eternal meant eternal in the past and even now ........

Tyndale’s translations were condemned in England, where his work was banned and copies burned.[Catholic officials, prominently Thomas More,charged that he had purposely mistranslated the ancient texts in order to promote anti-clericalism and heretical views,In particular they cited the terms "church", "priest", "do penance" and "charity", which became in the Tyndale translation "congregation", "senior" (changed to "elder" in the revised edition of 1534), "repent" and "love", challenging key doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

Betrayed to church officials in 1536, he was defrocked in an elaborate public ceremony and turned over to the civil authorities to be strangled to death and burned at the stake. His last words are said to have been, "Lord! Open the King of England's eyes."

Wiki

**** once again, it was originally written and believed that hell was not forever; 

Incorrect , you are mere giving Tyndales views on the matter

****if you refuse to believe that, nor refuse to look it up yourself, nor read links showing it then why are you even on this site? 

Why would I read any of your links? You post up links in your last debate to a 9/11 truthers and conspiracy theorists site and call it “truth” 

****I am not to believe it, nor will I do the research on it, nor will I read any information about it or anything that may prove dee wrong.  

There you go yet again lying and saying things I never said , I think you’re talking about yourself again

***if you call that debating,  wow you are one masturbator .  

No doubt that is something you’re well practiced at as your profile pic makes you look like a seedy plastic comb salesman at a train  station but in fairness I hear your mother does her best work on her knees 

****look it up

Ok give me her phone number in case I’m ever desperate 

Dee

@Plaffelvohfen

Protestantism definitely sees Hell as eternal and permanent, the teaching of the Catholic Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.

Correct , which means billions of Catholics and Protestants have accepted and died not knowing what eternity actually meant regarding eternal punishment. This same game is played time and time again to the unpalatable parts of the Bible as in slavery as the excuse now is “ oh slavery actually meant bonded labour “ anything negative of course is a translation problem and naturally anything positive is a perfect translation 

Dee

@maxx

****irrelevant to whom?

Read what @Plaffelvohfen said it’s pretty clear what he’s saying 

  ****actually it should matter to all of the religious sector to understand what their bible is and how it was compiled and what was land when it was put in and what was left out; as well on how it was translated.

Not one of the 33,000 Christian denominations agree on translations with each other maybe you should tell them how to read the Bible?

*** I have read several old bibles and each generation gets new changes and they are already past the point where it doesn't quite mean or say once what it used to and it the future probably even less. does it matter to others who are not religious?  

Yes it keeps changing as societies evolve slavery was once fully accepted as approved of in the Bible now its not why do you think that is?

 

maxx

what does that have to do with how wrong you were?
@Dee

Dee

@maxx

what does that have to do with how wrong you were?

Oh you mean in how I corrected you yet again?

maxx

he states that the catholic of today believe in our definition of forever as it is written today and should not matter; it has no bearing upon how it was originally believed the reason why so many people fail to agree upon how the bible is translated is because they fail to look uo the earliest writings and original translations.. you can deny it all you want but it was originally  believed and stated that hell was not forever; it was a place of reform.@Dee

Dee

@maxx

 you can deny it all you want but it was originally  believed and stated that hell was not forever; it was a place of reform.@Dee

It wasn’t , the earliest christians believed in eternal Hell fire as did god , why should I believe a translation that got its translator killed for heresy because it was a mistranslation? 

Plaffelvohfen

@maxx

When I say it's irrelevant, I mean to say that the 1.2 billion of Catholics and the 900 millions Protestants won't care, your definition is an heresy to them, worth as much as Joseph Smith's golden tablets...

Religious people don't care about facts and reality, or there would be no religious people...

maxx

I understand that.  however, once history is lost, it is very difficult to bring back. the bible was changed generation after generation for propaganda and scare tatics, in the same way each country has different versions of history books, different versions on how they write it.@Plaffelvohfen

maxx

aside from the catholics being first, before christains, all you are doing is reading the bible on how it is translated today, not how it was originally written. simple as that. you are acting just like a religious individual that you so quickly deride; you wont face the facts nor look it up because you do not want your cherished beliefs to be ruined.@Dee

Vaulk

Well this debate derailed quickly.  To the OP: Adam and Eve did royally screw the pooch however, they also lived afterwards during the time of the old testament.  We don't have much to go on as far as their adherence to the old testament code but there's nothing documented to say that they're automatically going to hell for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  For all we know they could easily be counted among those that, during the old testament, strictly followed the old code and found favor in his eyes.

Ultimately there is no "One sin beats all" doctrinally speaking (In the past tense) but there are sins that specifically guarantee you a seat in hell if you end your life living them.  Aside from these typically called "Mortal sins" Solomon is a good example of how people are judged.  Supposedly Solomon was a fairly wicked , stealing the wife of another Man and sending him to the front lines to be killed so he could have her.  God eventually went on to say that Solomon was a Man after his own heart which means...our actions are not strictly what we are going to be judged by and one sin (Or many) won't strictly determine our fate in the end.  It will likely be a combination of what is in our heart and what good or evil we brought about while on Earth...but that's just my opinion.

maxx

if adam and eve being the first people and sinned so quickly that says much about the entire character of the human race; sin would have entered sooner or later from someone else.  if (according to the bible) that everything happens according to gods plan then adam and eve were just his tools to start that plan and punishing them for it would be a very odd thing to do.@Vaulk

Vaulk

@maxx

I suppose that's one perspective to have.  Then again, "Odd" compared to what?  It appears that you're attempting to classify an action taken by a supernatural being by comparing it to something that a natural being would or wouldn't do.  Furthermore it seems that because it doesn't make sense to you, meaning it doesn't seem sensible according to your human sensibilities, then the action taken by this supernatural being is therefor odd and deserving of skepticism.

This is the "Free will" paradigm.  From God's perspective, even if you DID know what the outcome would be, wouldn't you have to let it play out anyway in order to maintain free will?  In this case there would be three choices: 1). Intervene and affect the situation until a positive outcome was achieved for some unknown reason (Most likely because people think they're automatically deserving of it.  2). Terminate the whole thing because it was going to end up with them sinning in the first place.  3). Let it be and allow humans to make mistakes of their own accord and to learn from them, develop a better understanding and appreciation for life and eventually...willfully come to love you for the life of free will that you gave them.

God cannot intervene into the lives of humans otherwise it compromises the free will paradigm.  How much free will would you ACTUALLY have if everything was wonderful?  How would you determine a good action from a bad action if there was no reason to do anything bad?  If evil had no allure, no purpose, no power over you because everything in life was perfect...then there'd be no Good and Evil, no Light and Dark.  Good people are defined when bad things happen, anyone can be good when their life is perfect and everything goes their way, it's when disaster strikes, your life is turned upside down and despair is eating away at you...THAT'S when good people are defined and THAT'S why bad things happen to "So called" good people.