Should our societies have a “maximum wage”? Would the world be better off if this was introduced?

MichaelElpers

@Dee. No because the economy is not a fixed pot, it can grow and being able to earn more is what grows it. 

Dee

@MichaelElpers


***** No because the economy is not a fixed pot, it can grow and being able to earn more is what grows it. 

No , it’s not what grows it , it can be a factor but that’s not the full picture. 

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Sure but it is a factor in what grows it.  I dont see why someone should be forced to stop earning money, it doesnt take money from others.

Dee

@MichaelElpers


***** I dont see why someone should be forced to stop earning money, it doesnt take money from others.


Really?...... A January report from Oxfam noted, “The richest one percent has increased its income by 60 percent in the last 20 years.” It further argued that the 2012 net income of the world’s top 100 billionaires—a haul of $240 billion—would be four times the amount needed to eliminate extreme poverty internationally.

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Yes really because under free market which doesnt limit how much someone makes poverty levels have decreased at levels unseen in human history. Income disparit doesnt matter what does is that more people atound the world are now experiencing the best standards of living.

Again making a lot of money doesnt mean they are stealing drom a fixed pot and eliminating the potential for others to get there hands on it.

I dont really see what your point is...should we steal it from them to end the poverty.  Why dont you create a billion dollar businesss then you can decide to give it all away?

Most of the countries that are still poor are limited by the fact they dont embrace the free market.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****
I dont really see what your point is


I know what a surprise , you don’t like reading reports it seems whys that?

MichaelElpers

@Dee The report says the rich got richer it doesnt say that it is at the expense of the poor.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****  The report says the rich got richer it doesnt say that it is at the expense of the poor.

Of course how could it be at their expense?

MichaelElpers

@Dee. People view it that way when they think there is a finite amount money that can be earned.

MayCaesar

Both the minimum and the maximum wage are abominations.

From the moral standpoint, the former suggests that everyone is entitled to something, even if they have zero skills or work ethics. The latter suggests that there is a limit to everyone's worth, and no matter how good they are at giving value to the society, they cannot surpass that limit.

From the economical standpoint, the former prevents many people from getting entry-level jobs, effectively barring them from entering the market and getting them stuck on welfare for the rest of their lives. The latter destroys incentive for people with high-paid jobs to improve their skills, because they will not be rewarded for doing so, which destroys intellectual innovation and mastery.

Some of the most prosperous countries in the world - Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Switzerland - have no minimum wage, and many other prosperous countries have very low minimum wage that, in practice, rarely is offered to anyone. The only two countries with maximum wage seem to be Cuba and Egypt, and both of those countries are economical disasters.

The way I see it, the government should only decide the minimum and maximum wage for governmental employees and has no business in what contracts private individuals make with each other.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****Both the minimum and the maximum wage are abominations.

In your opinion yes 

***From the moral standpoint, 

Your mean your moral standpoint , right?

*****the former suggests that everyone is entitled to something, even if they have zero skills or work ethics. 

Do companies in the U S hire bricklayers , carpenters , engineers with zero skills? 

****The latter suggests that there is a limit to everyone's worth, and no matter how good they are at giving value to the society, they cannot surpass that limit.

So a guy who earns a wage of 40 million a year should “morally “ be allowed to pay his workers a dollar an hour? That’s what you’re saying right?

****From the economical standpoint, the former prevents many people from getting entry-level jobs, effectively barring them from entering the market and getting them stuck on welfare for the rest of their lives. 

Nonsense , minimum wage is necessary in a progressive society 

*****The latter destroys incentive for people with high-paid jobs to improve their skills, because they will not be rewarded for doing so, which destroys intellectual innovation and mastery.

Right so again a guy who makes 30 to 40 million a year is not being rewarded by being denied the chance to double it yet someone on a minimum wage of 8 dollars an hour should not be entitled to this because well it’s just so unjust? 

****Some of the most prosperous countries in the world - Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Switzerland - have no minimum wage, and many other prosperous countries have very low minimum wage that, in practice, rarely is offered to anyone

That’s totally untrue , Americans seem to be the most insular people in the world with not a clue as to what’s going on in Europe it seems you need access to reliable non American news sources which mostly seem totally unreliable .

So your argument is fallacious on two counts.... Argumentum ex silentio and Argumentun Ad Populum 

An argument from silence features an unwarranted conclusion advanced based on the absence of data

Argumentun Ad Populum

Appeal To The Masses is one of the laziest, weak minded, and philosophically revealing fallacies one can engage in.  In short, this is the form of such an argument:

Conclusion X is true because everyone (or a majority of people) believes it.

That’s all there is to it.  It simply asks you to believe a conclusion because everyone else does.  To this I ask the classic question: If all of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?  That’s what we’re dealing with here, a childish immature mentality – and it just gets much uglier as adults adhere to it.

Sweden

Instead, salaries and benefits are negotiated between the national union and employer organizations.

Right, so is your contention that Swedes can pay below a reasonable wage?

Iceland 

The current minimum wage in Iceland is 300,000 ISK, and the Federation of General and Special Workers in Iceland (SGS), a large federation of public workers, wants to see that raised to 425,000 ISK.Oct 11, 2018

Germany 

Germany’s minimum wage legislation - Gesetz zur Regelung eines allgemeinen Mindestlohns - was introduced, on January 1, 2015, by Merkel’s third cabinet, composed of a coalition between the SPD – the social democratic party - and the CDU – the conservative party.

Finland 

Finland has a government-mandated minimum wage, and no worker in Finland can be paid less then this mandatory minimum rate of pay. Employers in Finland who fail to pay the Minimum Wage may be subject to punishment by Finland's government.

Norway 

Skilled workers earn a minimum of NOK 197.90 per hour, while unskilled workers with no experience should earn at least NOK 177.80 per hour. That rises to NOK 185.50 after one year's experience. Young workers under the age of 18 must earn at least NOK 119.30.

Denmark 

However, as of 2019 most minimum wages in the country hover around 110 DKK per hour (roughly 16 . 60 US dollars). The average working week in Denmark is of 37 hours. The expected minimum salary in Copenhagen for a full time position (gross) is of around 17000 DKK, or 2580 USD per month.

Switzerland 

While Switzerland has no official minimum wage,a majority of the voluntary collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation,ranging from 2,200 to 4,200 francs per month for unskilled workers and from 2,800 to 5,300 francs per month for skilled employees.

Austria

Austria does not have statutory minimum wage. Majority of the wage-earners in Austria are regulated by collective agreements which are negotiated by the social partnership. As per the current agreement, wage earners will earn nothing less than 1500 € per month.

So do you now concede the debate because I’ve proved the reverse or will denial take place?

******The only two countries with maximum wage seem to be Cuba and Egypt, and both of those countries are economical disasters.

Again another appeal to two terrible examples , how do these examples prove conclusively it would be a bad thing?

*****The way I see it, the government should only decide the minimum and maximum wage for governmental employees and has no business in what contracts private individuals make with each other.

Thankfully you don’t run government because you would allow those in need of a decent livable wage the chance to attain such 

****Almost 80% of Americans say they live from paycheck to paycheck, many not knowing how big their next one will be.

Fabulous isn’t it?

*****Blanketing all of this are stagnant wages and vanishing job benefits. The typical American worker now earns around $44,500 a year, not much more than what the typical worker earned in 40 years ago, adjusted for inflation. Although the US economy continues to grow, most of the gains have been going to a relatively few top executives of large companies, financiers, and inventors and owners

Sure , why should the workers get any of the gains , right?

America doesn’t have a jobs crisis. It has a good jobs cris 

Dee

@MichaelElpers

***** The report says the rich got richer it doesnt say that it is at the expense of the poor.

Who takes the vast majority of the profits in any business?

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Generally the person who put in the most work starting it and the person who by far has the most risk.

No one is preventimg anyone from doing the same.

MayCaesar

@Dee

I am not sure why you are reacting so aggressively. I did not say anything overly controversial, and my reasoning is based on basic economical sciences.

I do not think that a multi-millionaire paying their workers $1 an hour is morally wrong. I would question sanity of workers accepting such measly pay, however, but, again, perhaps their skills are just that poor, and then getting paid $1 an hour is the only way they know to enter the job market. Better to have this way, than no way whatsoever.

Effective minimum wage, of course, arises in any system due to market forces. For example, if you offer to pay people 1 cent per year, then nobody will agree to work for you and you will go bankrupt. On the other hand, if you offer to pay people a billion a year, then you will be outcompeted by enterpreneurs spending less on maintaining their labor and go bankrupt. There is some middle point which the market supply/demand balance leads to, and that is exactly how much workers should be paid - and it is essential that they can be legally paid that.

"Thankfully you don’t run government because you would allow those in need of a decent livable wage the chance to attain such" - this one I am totally confused about. The right way to govern is to not allow people to attain livable wage?
What is "livable wage" anyway? There are countless people living off no income, hence any wage, including lack of thereof, is, by definition, livable.

How does America have good jobs crisis? Open any online listing and observe countless unfilled positions worth $200k+ a year. That few people are qualified for those positions is a different matter, and that is the case everywhere: high-paid jobs have to require a lot of skills, otherwise what are people getting paid for? $100,000 a year for flipping burgers ain't gonna happen, my friend.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****I am not sure why you are reacting so aggressively 

Aggressively? I pointed out your claim that a minimum and maximum wage was an “abomination “ was merely your opinion that is a statement of fact and totally non aggressive , you then stated ..... “From the moral standpoint” thus assuming a position of moral authority which I again correctly pointed out was merely your opinion which is yet again totally non aggressive but a searingly accurate dismissal of your unfounded assertions based on nothing but your opinion 

**** I would question sanity of workers accepting such measly pay, however, but, again, perhaps their skills are just that poor, and then getting paid $1 an hour is the only way they know to enter the job market. 

It’s amazing that you see only certain work as worthy and do not think fellow humans are entitled to a fair wage for their labors 

****Better to have this way, than no way whatsoever.

Yes indeed as you previously claimed healthcare and university fees were no problem to the lowest paid in the U S with what you termed “ wise choices”  

****Effective minimum wage, of course, arises in any system due to market forces. For example, if you offer to pay people 1 cent per year, then nobody will agree to work for you and you will go bankrupt. On the other hand, if you offer to pay people a billion a year, then you will be outcompeted by enterpreneurs spending less on maintaining their labor and go bankrupt. There is some middle point which the market supply/demand balance leads to, and that is exactly how much workers should be paid - and it is essential that they can be legally paid that.

A fair wage is one that should cover the basic necessities in life , food , clothing and accommodation no matter how basic would you disagree with this ?

***- this one I am totally confused about. The right way to govern is to not allow people to attain livable wage?

Not allow???? Where did I state this?

****What is "livable wage" anyway?

Read above 

 ****There are countless people living off no income, hence any wage, including lack of thereof, is, by definition, livable.

Your point being? 


***/How does America have good jobs crisis? 

I’m only telling you what research states 

***Open any online listing and observe countless unfilled positions worth $200k+ a year. That few people are qualified for those positions is a different matter, and that is the case everywhere: high-paid jobs have to require a lot of skills, otherwise what are people getting paid for? 

So what? I gave you the findings as in 80 % of Americans live from paycheck to paycheck dot take it out on me that your fellow Americans are mostly unqualified as you openly admit 

*****$100,000 a year for flipping burgers ain't gonna happen, my friend.

It’s not me you should be addressing but fellow Americans don’t shoot the messenger my friend 

MayCaesar

@Dee

It is not about what I see as worthy; it is about what the market evaluates as worthy. I personally have worked for 70 cents per hour and never complained about it.

The wage you are describing may or may not be fair, depending on what work the employee does. In addition, "fairness" is a subjective entity.

What you described is not a "livable wage" by definition. "Living wage"/"livable wage" is a newspeak in politics used to defeat opponents by appealing to emotion. There is no wage below which one cannot live.

A person can live from paycheck to paycheck for many reasons, some of which have nothing to do with their job. I used to live from paycheck to paycheck, and now I do not, even though my income barely changed - because I wisened up and got my finances straight. Not everyone does that.

Dee

@MayCaesar


***** It is not about what I see as worthy; 

How does the market evaluate what’s worthy labour wise?

****I  have worked for 70 cents per hour and never complained about it.

No doubt you paid for healthcare and university fees out of that wage by making as you put it “wise choices”?

****The wage you are describing may or may not be fair, depending on what work the employee does. In addition, "fairness" is a subjective entity.

I gave a definition of what most would accept as a reasonable definition of a fair wage but as usual you ignore what doesn’t fit your narrative 

****What you described is not a "livable wage" by definition. 

Who’s definition?  Where is this written? What then is a livable wage?

****” Living wage"/"livable wage" is a newspeak in politics used to defeat opponents by appealing to emotion. 

I haven’t appealed to emotion what an intellectually weak counter 

****There is no wage below which one cannot live.

Right , I gave you a definition of what a fair wage would be but you in your ivory tower think fellow humans are not entitled to a living wage 

**** A person can live from paycheck to paycheck for many reasons, some of which have nothing to do with their job. 

Right , thanks for explain why 80 per cent live that way 

****I used to live from paycheck to paycheck, and now I do not, even though my income barely changed - because I wisened up and got my finances straight.

Wise choices no doubt where no matter what’s one paid in the states once it a “livable wage “ it’s fair 

**** Not everyone does that.

Yeah , maybe you could put then straight?

Phil413

@Dee-there should be no minimum wage or a maximum wage. A person gets paid by what their employer thinks you worth, not what you think you're worth. Minimum, and to that matter, Maximum wages means government telling  business what to do, which goes against supply and demand.

Dee

@Phil413

Minimum wage is accepted as a norm In most civilized countries including the U S , amazing you think billionaires should be able to have no limits on rewards yet the underpaid should  

piloteer

There already is a manner in which someone can achieve a maximum wage. A self imposed maximum wage is a perfectly viable option for people who only want to make so much money. Given the fact that this can already be achieved, there's no reason to impose laws to do it. 

Phil413

@Dee- why do some athletes get millions when another athlete who plays the same position and does the same work get less?It's because that millionaire athlete has a certain set of skills that the other doesn't. That leads to him being in high demand, meaning he can set his own price. Same process in the corporate world; a company wants a certain CEO, they pay him/her the price they want.

Dee

@Phil413

***** - why do some athletes get millions when another athlete who plays the same position and does the same work get less?It's because that millionaire athlete has a certain set of skills that the other doesn't. That leads to him being in high demand, meaning he can set his own price. Same process in the corporate world; a company wants a certain CEO, they pay him/her the price they want.


Yes I get that , how does that make it morally right? A surgeon who saves lives daily is paid a paltry wage compared to a lot of theses self entitled egotists 

Phil413

@Dee- It doesn't make it right from a moral standpoint, because humans are not inherently moral. They are taught morals and ethics by whoever teaches them, or they learn it on their own.  I will say though that if you make everyone get paid the same, or you establish a limit as to how much you can make, you reduce incentive and their motivation will drop, mo matter what career field you are in.

MayCaesar

@Dee

This is a strange question, as it is literally the first thing explained in any respectable book on economics. Due to the mechanics of the supply/demand balance, the market naturally gravitates towards a given pay amount for a given set of skills used. The market evaluates your labor based on how much employers are willing to pay for it. If nobody wants to pay more than $1 an hour for your labor, then this is what its market value is. That I or you believe that you are being underpaid is completely irrelevant. If you are being underpaid, then go find an employer who will not underpay you. And if you cannot, then chances are you are not being underpaid in the first place.

I studied hard enough to earn scholarships which allowed me not to pay for university out of my own pocket. This is a pretty wise choice, in my opinion.
As for healthcare, I paid for it all myself, yes.

"Livable wage" is naturally the wage sufficient for one to live. It is right there in the words. By definition then, it does not exist, since having a wage is not required for one to live.

You seem to think that market should run on morals. Well, it has been tried in many countries, and it led to starvation everywhere. Morals do not make production run, they only make you feel good about yourself.
Market does not care what you think is moral. It only cares about what people are willing to buy. If nobody wants to buy your labor and you have to sell it for cheap, then it is up to you to improve your skills to make your labor sell better.

Dee

@Phil413

**** it doesn't make it right from a moral standpoint, because humans are not inherently moral.

Right so do way with basic humanity then , now what? 

*****They are taught morals and ethics by whoever teaches them, or they learn it on their own.

Yes 

  ****I will say though that if you make everyone get paid the same,

I never said that 

****or you establish a limit as to how much you can make, you reduce incentive and their motivation will drop, mo matter what career field you are in.

Right you should not be stopped from making millions on top of millions but you certainly should be stoped from asking for a minimum wage , no offence you Americans are strange people you defend billionaires tooth and nail put yet piss on the poor why’s that? 

Dee

@MayCaesar

***** This is a strange question,

To Americans it seems it is 

****as it is literally the first thing explained in any respectable book on economics.

Really? What’s is a “respectable “ book on economics? Who decides such? I’m looking at one here and this question is not asked or included in it why’s that?

 ****Due to the mechanics of the supply/demand balance, the market naturally gravitates towards a given pay amount for a given set of skills used. The market evaluates your labor based on how much employers are willing to pay for it. If nobody wants to pay more than $1 an hour for your labor, then this is what its market value is. That I or you believe that you are being underpaid is completely irrelevant

Nonsense , if the market decides one dollar an hour is a fair rate and I claim I believe I’m being underpaid thats irrelevant?

****. If you are being underpaid, then go find an employer who will not underpay you. 

Fabulous solution , so those in low paid industries can easily find an employer who’s paying better rates?

****And if you cannot, then chances are you are not being underpaid in the first place.

Right ,those working in low paid industries who cannot find higher pay in that industry are actually not being underpaid, where do you get this stuff from?  

****I studied hard enough to earn scholarships which allowed me not to pay for university out of my own pocket. 

Well good for you , do you know everyone’s life situation is different to yours , do you realise this? 

****This is a pretty wise choice, in my opinion.

Yes , sure is 

****As for healthcare, I paid for it all myself, yes.

Yes , and you did say it’s relatively easy to do so plus university fees on minimum wage ( $ 7: 25 an hour) in the U S 

****"Livable wage" is naturally the wage sufficient for one to live. 

Livable wage despite your attempted reinterpretation is one that secures the necessities of life , basic shelter , warmth and food you think a sizable proportion of your fellow citizens do not deserve this  

****It is right there in the words. By definition then, it does not exist, since having a wage is not required for one to live.

What a throughly inane statement 

****You seem to think that market should run on morals. 

I didn’t claim that , what I’m saying is you’re the one who said a minimum wage was an “abomination “ and think it perfectly sensible and moral that a gangsta rapper bleating about gang rape and cop killing is deserving of his 20/30 million salary but a guy who asks for minimum wage is behaving in an abominable way ....That’s it isn’t it? 

****Well, it has been tried in many countries, and it led to starvation everywhere. 

How many countries? Which ones? How did it lead to starvation? You seem to think that the stuff you make up is somehow fact it’s not 

****Morals do not make production run, they only make you feel good about yourself.

Never said they do , what a bizzare statement 

****Market does not care what you think is moral. 

Never said it did 

*****It only cares about what people are willing to buy. 

A market has an opinion now? 

*****If nobody wants to buy your labor and you have to sell it for cheap, then it is up to you to improve your skills to make your labor sell better.

You should put that out as a Christmas cracker motto and air drop them all around impoverished areas of the world it would surely bring great solace to those who haven’t the “pleasure “ of living like 80% of Americans from paycheck to paycheck 

MayCaesar

@Dee

If you are reading a book on basic economics that does not start with the explanation of the supply/demand balance - then you should toss it out and buy something sensible.

Yes, that you believe that you are being underpaid - is absolutely irrelevant as far as the market goes.

If someone cannot sell their skills for higher than they are selling them now - on a free market - then yes, they are not being underpaid.

You do not need to have money to be able to buy food to live; there are many ways to get food for free. Who "deserves" what is a different matter, but "livable wage" is an oxymoron by definition.

What is with your obsession with the US? I am not talking about the US specifically; my argument applies to all economies equally.

Dee

@MayCaesar


**** If you are reading a book on basic economics that does not start with the explanation of the supply/demand balance - then you should toss it out and buy something sensible.

Thanks for the heads up

Yes, that you believe that you are being underpaid - is absolutely irrelevant as far as the market goes.

*****If someone cannot sell their skills for higher than they are selling them now - on a free market - then yes, they are not being underpaid.

Which is why governments worldwide have minimum wage laws to protect against people of your mind 

****You do not need to have money to be able to buy food to live;

Of course you don’t , how foolish of me 

 *****there are many ways to get food for free.

Yes I know which is why millions starve yearly and 40 million Americans suffer from food poverty , maybe you should go on a lecture tour and point out all the places they can avail of free food?

 ****Who "deserves" what is a different matter, but "livable wage" is an oxymoron by definition.

Another inane statement , here you go again .....

Livable wage despite your attempted reinterpretation is one that secures the necessities of life , basic shelter , warmth and food you think a sizable proportion of your fellow citizens do not deserve this

What is it you object to about this?

****What is with your obsession with the US?

Obsession? I’m addressing mostly Americans with a trypically American view of economics as in its an abomination to ask an industrialist on 40 million profits a year to pay his staff $ 7 :25 an hour minimum wage 

**** I am not talking about the US specifically; my argument applies to all economies equally.

Right so bonded labourers in India should heed your wise words on bettering themselves? 

I also note you ignore nearly every point made to you why’s that?

MayCaesar

@Dee

Governments worldwide have laws to exert control over the population. They do not have laws to "protect" people against people of my mind, because people of my mind do not attack anyone.

The only necessity for something to be livable is that you cannot live without it, by definition. "Basic shelter", for example, is not such an entity.

A solid argument does not depend on who you are making it in front of. If the fact of me living in the US currently makes you always make it about America, then something is probably wrong with your argument.

Dee

@MayCaesar

***** Governments worldwide have laws to exert control over the population

Theres me thinking laws were there for my protection 

. ****They do not have laws to "protect" people against people of my mind, because people of my mind do not attack anyone.

I had a feeling you would miss the point 

*****The only necessity for something to be livable is that you cannot live without it, by definition

Right , so you still do not know or won’t say what a fair wage would be except of course if it applied to you 

****. "Basic shelter", for example, is not such an entity.

Basic shelter most humans agree is a necessity , it’s a tricky concept but there you go 

*****A solid argument does not depend on who you are making it in front of. 

Right ..........

*****If the fact of me living in the US currently makes you always make it about America,

Well you are giving a typically American perspective on the topic why are you getting upset? 

****then something is probably wrong with your argument.

My argument is fine , your avoidance of every counter I make is telling 

*****I respond to relevant points you make and ignore all the filler content,

Just as well because you tie yourself up in knots every time with your continuous  false claims backed up by nothing as in your your claims about European countries not having minimum wage in place a deliberate untruth  , followed by your complaint about police mistreatment only to deny such in the next breath and followed by .... this gem ..........”You seem to think that the market should run on morals” ......Yet you’re the one made a “ moral pronouncement “ by claiming minimun / maximum wage was an “ abomination “ talk about hypocrisy 

****as well as questions I have already addressed.

You rarely do because you cannot without totally contradicting yourself 

MayCaesar

@Dee ;

What most humans think is absolutely irrelevant as to what is truth and what is not.

I am not upset; what makes you think I am? 

Ever heard the saying "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas"? Stop discussing me and the hidden motives behind my words, and start discussing the actual points I make. I am not much interested in talking to small minds, so my responses to this type of commenting are going to be scarce.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****What most humans think is absolutely irrelevant as to what is truth and what is not.

I asked you to define previously what truth was you avoided replying 

*****I am not upset; what makes you think I am?

Maybe then you could account for your failure to answer why you made a false claim regarding European minimum wage?

****Ever heard the saying "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas"? Stop discussing me


I'm not discussing you ,I'm asking you to defend the various claims you made you cannot do so, these are your are your " ideas" yet you cannot defend them so throw in yet another red herring. You really ought to stop making fallacious arguments it demonstrates your small mindedness

******and the hidden motives behind my words,

There are no "hidden motives" I challenge you directly and you resort to avoidance 


**^***and start discussing the actual points I make. I am not much interested in talking to small minds, so my responses to this type of commenting are going to be scarce.

Indeed , I pointed out as one point your hypocrisy at accusing me of appealing to morality after you made a moral pronouncement , yet again you resort to a red herring instead of explaining your double standards

Don't comment if you don't want , I care not if you cannot defend your position and prefer the option of flight as an avoidance tactic 

MichaelElpers

@MayCaesar. If Dee cannot understand that in a free market the market determines the value of your labor there is no sense in continuing.

If you feel you are underpaid you can improve your skill, get a different job, or start your own business like the employers had too. To force or expect anything else is stealing period.

MayCaesar

@Dee

I used slightly outdated sources, so yes, I was wrong on a few of those countries. My point stands: some of the leading European countries have done just fine without the enforced minimum wage.
What this has to do with me being or not being upset, I fail to see.

Even in the paragraph starting with "I'm not discussing you" you said "you" or "your" 9 times. The total count of "you"-s and "your"-s in that comment is 22. Ask clarifying question in order to discuss ideas, instead of "you"-ing me repeatedly as if trying to court me.


@MichaelElpers ;

This seems to be something most people do not understand nowadays. They seem to think that the wage is determined by how charitable the employer is and nothing else.

Dee

*****@MayCaesar. If Dee cannot understand that in a free market the market determines the value of your labor there is no sense in continuing.


Actually your employer determines the value of your labour people like you and May use this as a defence because of your refesual to admit that a person's labour is worthy of a wage that covers the basic necessities in life 


*****If you feel you are underpaid you can improve your skill, get a different job,

Right , what a simplistic world view 

  *******or start your own business like the employers had too. To force or expect anything else is stealing period.

Indeed to ask an employer to pay a fair wage is a form of theft 

Dee

@MayCaesar


*****
I used slightly outdated sources, so yes, I was wrong on a few of those countries.

Incorrect , you were wrong on them all at least have the balls to admit it 

******My point stands: some of the leading European countries have done just fine without the enforced minimum wage.

Hilarious ,you made a point by appealing to what you thought was a fact , I proved it wasn't but your point " "still stands " 

You detest the law when it offers the weakest members of society protection why's that?

What countries are you referring to?

******What this has to do with me being or not being upset, I fail to see.

Right , maybe you will actually defend your positions instal of whining thsn?

******Even in the paragraph starting with "I'm not discussing you" you said "you" or "your" 9 times. The total count of "you"-s and "your"-s in that comment is 22.


Listen if the word "you " which you used 28 times in a previous post is so upsetting maybe you could get it banned like you want minimum wage to be?

******Ask clarifying question in order to discuss ideas,

I've done so to be met by avoidance and a typically cowardly example above where you admit you were wrong in part but then stupidly claim but " my point still stands" 

*******instead of "you"-ing me repeatedly as if trying to court me.

Court you? Oh dear what a coward you are 


@MichaelElpers ;

******This seems to be something most people do not understand nowadays. They seem to think that the wage is determined by how charitable the employer is and nothing else.

"They"? Yet another sweeping generalisation based on nothing but your bias and detestation for the weakest in society

I think it strange that Elpers and you do not comprehend that a wage is not " charity " but payment for ones labour which is worthy of a fair wage , you'd both think the worker  should go cap in hand and beg the boss for what he thinks is best .....,Except of course if it's your wage at stake 


I think you and @MichaelElpers may have been missing the day basic economics regarding minimun wage was discussed at college or do they even encourage discussing such over there?

The main aims of the minimum wage

1. The equity justification: That every job should offer a fair rate of pay commensurate with the skills and experience of an employee.
2. Labour market incentives: The NMW is designed to improve incentives for people to start looking for work – thereby boosting the economy's labour supply.
3. Labour market discrimination: The NMW is a tool designed to offset some of the effects of persistent discrimination of many low-paid female workers and younger employees.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****@MayCaesar. If Dee cannot understand that in a free market the market determines the value of your labor there is no sense in continuing.


Actually your employer determines the value of your labour people like you and May use this as a defence because of your refesual to admit that a person's labour is worthy of a wage that covers the basic necessities in life 


*****If you feel you are underpaid you can improve your skill, get a different job,

Right , what a simplistic world view 

  *******or start your own business like the employers had too. To force or expect anything else is stealing period.

Indeed to ask an employer to pay a fair wage is a form of theft 

MichaelElpers

@Dee

And the employers base it on...market value!  They dont just pull it out of their butt.

If they are underpaying the market value of your skill, they will have high turn over rates as people will leave realizing they can go somewhere else.  Employers that pay at the higher end are doing so to gain the highest talent/ keep experience at their business.

You are allowed to ask your employer for a raise.  Forcing people by law to pay you extra is theft.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****   Forcing people by law to pay you extra is theft.

How is asking employers to ensure a $ 7 : 25 minimun hourly rate theft? 

MichaelElpers

@Dee Because you are forcing a business to pay someone a certain rate.

If someone accepts a rate lower than that, that is there prerogative, it is mutually agreed upon. Not all businesses are large corporations there are a lot of small and start up businesses trying to stay a float month by month that cant afford to pay people a $15 wage.  The start up or small business owner at some times might not even be making that themselves, they are taking a risk that it will pay off, and you dont get to steal the reward.

Often if you are an employee is there from the beginning with a small business that makes it bigger they get rewarded with a higher level position because of the loyalty, experience, and risk that was involved.

Let me put it this way.  You shouldnt not be allowed to make a business because at the start or when in trouble you cant pay the $15 wage the government is forcing.

If someone wants to agree to work for $5 who are you to tell them they cant.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****  Because you are forcing a business to pay someone a certain rate.

Incorrect I’m putting a limit on how much a business owner can exploit others for his/her own benefit 

*****If someone accepts a rate lower than that, that is there prerogative, it is mutually agreed upon.

I agree , but honestly do you not think that someone to offer someone less than $ 7:25 an hour is something to be proud of?

 ****Not all businesses are large corporations there are a lot of small and start up businesses trying to stay a float month by month that cant afford to pay people a $15 wage

Don't employ them then. I’m talking about the minimun wage of $ 7: 25 in the US which your buddy @MayCaesar  thinks is “an abomination” and thinks one could easily afford a healthcare plan and University fees on such as in $ 290 a week “ one makes wise choices “ as he puts it 

.  *****The start up or small business owner at some times might not even be making that themselves, they are taking a risk that it will pay off,

Fine , so the workers should except a ridiculously low salary so as to make them a success? Why not offer them a stake in the business then if they put faith in you? Is loyalty not to be rewarded?

**** and you dont get to steal the reward.

The only stealing being done in this scenario is your employer who is using others with no thoughts for anyone but himself 

****Often if you are an employee is there from the beginning with a small business that makes it bigger they get rewarded with a higher level position because of the loyalty, experience, and risk that was involved.

That’s all I’m asking , such behaviour is commendable  

*****Let me put it this way.  You shouldnt not be allowed to make a business because at the start or when in trouble you cant pay the $15 wage the government is forcing.

I haven’t heard the € 15 dollar limit in fairness , is this now compulsory in the U S 

*****If someone wants to agree to work for $5 who are you to tell them they cant.

I would question why someone would do such , a man asked me years ago for employment ( I had my own company) his marriage had broke up and he was a man of good character,  he offered to work at half 
 the rate I was paying the others as he was desperate for work , I told him he was on trial but on full rate if he preformed like the others he turned out to be one of my best. 

Why not treat others as you would like to be treated it’s not a weakness to do so