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Is it possible, to "pray the gay away"?

Debate Information

I say no! I identify as bisexual, and Itried for years to pray it away, and it just did not work. I don't currently know of any proof whatsoever, that sexual orientation can ever change.
JesusisGod777888smoothie



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  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    Well, it's definitely possible to try (as it seems you have) but it'll never work of course, they're prayers after all...
    smoothie
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    Well, it's definitely possible to try (as it seems you have) but it'll never work of course, they're prayers after all...
    I agree. There is no proof whatsoever that sexual orentation, can change.
    smoothie
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    What have you tried it for? What is wrong with being bisexual? 

    I do think it is possible to change one's sexual orientation in most cases through very intense psychological conditioning, but I do not see why anyone would want to do it. Especially on the West, where few people care what orientation you have, and discrimination at this point is minimal, if at all existent.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    What have you tried it for? What is wrong with being bisexual? 

    I do think it is possible to change one's sexual orientation in most cases through very intense psychological conditioning, but I do not see why anyone would want to do it. Especially on the West, where few people care what orientation you have, and discrimination at this point is minimal, if at all existent.
    Prove it.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Well, this "procedure" can change your whole personality, with enough conditioning we can convince anyone of anything really, it's literal brainwashing you're talking about... We could also, with precise brain surgery, suppress the sexual drive altogether from any individual and effectively make anyone asexual...

    But the OP was talking about a specific method: prayers... And prayers only will never change anything...
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    To say or think this is possible is to live in deceit of oneself.

    A being that we have no proof exists can not grant wishes, or for that matter do anything. (otherwise we would have proof said being existed and the statement would be a paradox.)

    If such a being to pray to exists, then it can answer prayers and presumably change sexual orientation. If it can and doesn't, then it doesn't care to.

    If it doesn't exist, then no amount of praying will ever change sexual orientation.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaBought

    First who cares what you say!

    It's not by means of a choice when you choose to disobey.

    Sexual immorality has its cause because of sin

    It is because you have no submitted you're life that you are under the influence of evil

     Because G1360 the carnal G4561 mind G5427 is enmity G2189 against G1519 God G2316: for G1063 it is G5293 not G3756 subject G5293 to the law G3551 of God G2316, neither G3761 indeed G1063 can be G1410note

     8  So then G1161 they that are G5607 in G1722 the flesh G4561 cannot G3756 G1410 please G700 God G2316.

     9  But G1161 ye G5210 are G2075 not G3756 in G1722 the flesh G4561, but G235 in G1722 the Spirit G4151, if so be G1512 that the Spirit G4151 of God G2316 dwell G3611 in G1722 you G5213. Now G1161 if any man G1536 have G2192 not G3756 the Spirit G4151 of Christ G5547, he G3778 is G2076 none G3756 of his G846.

     10  And G1161 if G1487 Christ G5547 be in G1722 you G5213, the body G4983 G3303 is dead G3498 because G1223 of sin G266; but G1161 the Spirit G4151 is life G2222 because G1223 of righteousness G1343.

     11  But G1161 if G1487 the Spirit G4151 of him that raised up G1453 Jesus G2424 from G1537 the dead G3498 dwell G3611 in G1722 you G5213, he that raised up G1453 Christ G5547 from G1537 the dead G3498 shall G2227 also G2532 quicken G2227 your G5216 mortal G2349 bodies G4983 by G1223 his G846 Spirit G4151 that dwelleth G1774 in G1722 you G5213note

    And who cares what these nimrods say?


    Plaffelvohfensmoothie
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @JesusisGod777888

    You F***ing hypocrite! You just posted a thread asking if using women to follow Jesus is appropriate, you clearly have no idea what is and isn't relevant!

    If you were so "Pure in spirit" asking such a question wouldn't be necessary.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @JesusisGod777888

    And no one cares about what a death-cultist (you) have to say about anything...
    JesusisGod777888Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    I have alltoghether written you off as a retard so like Dee you're going to be ignored.
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_Killbotsmoothie
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    First who cares what you say!

    It's not by means of a choice when you choose to disobey.

    Sexual immorality has its cause because of sin

    It is because you have no submitted you're life that you are under the influence of evil

     Because G1360 the carnal G4561 mind G5427 is enmity G2189 against G1519 God G2316: for G1063 it is G5293 not G3756 subject G5293 to the law G3551 of God G2316, neither G3761 indeed G1063 can be G1410note

     8  So then G1161 they that are G5607 in G1722 the flesh G4561 cannot G3756 G1410 please G700 God G2316.

     9  But G1161 ye G5210 are G2075 not G3756 in G1722 the flesh G4561, but G235 in G1722 the Spirit G4151, if so be G1512 that the Spirit G4151 of God G2316 dwell G3611 in G1722 you G5213. Now G1161 if any man G1536 have G2192 not G3756 the Spirit G4151 of Christ G5547, he G3778 is G2076 none G3756 of his G846.

     10  And G1161 if G1487 Christ G5547 be in G1722 you G5213, the body G4983 G3303 is dead G3498 because G1223 of sin G266; but G1161 the Spirit G4151 is life G2222 because G1223 of righteousness G1343.

     11  But G1161 if G1487 the Spirit G4151 of him that raised up G1453 Jesus G2424 from G1537 the dead G3498 dwell G3611 in G1722 you G5213, he that raised up G1453 Christ G5547 from G1537 the dead G3498 shall G2227 also G2532 quicken G2227 your G5216 mortal G2349 bodies G4983 by G1223 his G846 Spirit G4151 that dwelleth G1774 in G1722 you G5213note

    And who cares what these nimrods say?


    https://www.gaychristian101.com/
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I have alltoghether written you off as a retard so like Dee you're going to be ignored.
    How Christian of you!
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfensmoothie
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I am not so sure. Prayers can be a form of conditioning oneself, somewhat akin to positive affirmations combined with placebo effect. A person who deeply believes in the power of prayers can absolutely use them to change one's psychology and even, to some extent, physiology.

    In this regard, I somewhat envy people who believe in this things. I have to resort to far more sophisticated psychological tools to alter my own conditioning. Some people can just say a few words of prayer and instantly change something; that does not work for more logical people like us.

    It works both ways, however. If you can manipulate yourself through prayer, then chances are other people will just as well manipulate yourself through simple psychological tricks. Seems common in all religions.
  • MayCaesar said:
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I am not so sure. Prayers can be a form of conditioning oneself, somewhat akin to positive affirmations combined with placebo effect. A person who deeply believes in the power of prayers can absolutely use them to change one's psychology and even, to some extent, physiology.

    In this regard, I somewhat envy people who believe in this things. I have to resort to far more sophisticated psychological tools to alter my own conditioning. Some people can just say a few words of prayer and instantly change something; that does not work for more logical people like us.

    It works both ways, however. If you can manipulate yourself through prayer, then chances are other people will just as well manipulate yourself through simple psychological tricks. Seems common in all religions.

    I don't think this is accurate. The placebo effect is to do with feeling like something is working which is really no more than an illusion. But there is a limit to how the placebo effect works. For example, no matter how hard someone believes they might develop wings one day and fly in the sky that most likely will never happen. Not only that, but in experimentation research studies the results of the placebo group are often not that much different than the control group if memory serves me correctly.



  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar I don't think the placebo effect works like that. We are talking about completely re-wiring deep neural pathways here, the kind that takes months or even years to accomplish. Even with the aid of psychedelics and deliberate therapy an endeavor such as this is only marginally possible.

    I think prayer works to calm people down, and it can even help people deeply consider what they are thinking, but it fails at that when compared to other methods. Of course, it won't work, if people are expecting a change and actually looking for evidence that it has occurred, because as soon as you put it too any kind of test it just falls apart due to lack of evidence.

    Prayer might be a placebo, but the large number of failed religious institutions for converting homosexuals suggests that the effects are tiny or non existent.
    YeshuaBought
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42
    @Happy_Killbot

    The general understanding of this that I have is that the placebo effect works through the mobilisation of human organism that occurs when the person believes in something. If the pill you are taking makes you believe that you are getting better, then your physiology works in a way it would if you were actually getting better, and that, in turns, becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, when the organism "faking" it becoming better ends up making it.

    It is true that it is not a magical pill that can solve all your problems instantly, but by continuous repetition of the practice that you believe can make you happier, healthier and so on, you can fry certain beliefs into your brain, and they can override the prior wiring significantly.

    I have only met one person who actually has become a heterosexual, while originally being bisexual, through doing years of hard psychological work. It seems to be rare, but, at the same time, possible.
    I would question why anyone would want to do that, however, unless they are living in a society so oppressive, that even hiding their sexual preferences there is difficult.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 953 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought ; Unless one possesses a relationship with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus as Lord (John 14:6) and one possesses the indwelling Holy Spirit of God as the Seal and Guarantor of that relationship (Ephesians 1:13), their prayers don't rise past the ceiling of the room said prayers are offered (John 9:31) unless the unredeemed are seeking forgiveness of sin and righteousness by believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as Lord.

    If the homosexual-lesbian truly repents of their sin and turns to Jesus as Lord for healing and redemption (2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:9; Matthew 4:17), they will be saved and find new life, healing, peace, joy, contentment, purpose and meaning in Jesus via the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 3:16; 1 John 2:27; Galatians 5:22-23). God knows your heart and the intentions of that heart (Jeremiah 17:10).



    smoothieYeshuaBought
  • smoothiesmoothie 434 Pts   -   edited January 2020
    I can call myself purple when I am clearly not, I can call myself a dinosaur when I am clearly not. Funny enough, this is the exact argument christians make against transgenders, but I can use it against "praying the gay away" as well. This is where christian brainwash is strong when it comes to "converting gays". Christians wish that conversion therapy worked, they want to "save" everyone from their perception of "sin". Too bad, too sad. Trying to "convert" gays encourages self-hatred and suicide. It makes people's lives, especially minors engaged in this disgusting practice, a living hell.

    Some people are straight and thats a fact of life. Some people are gay and thats a fact of life. Some people are white and thats a fact of life. Some people are black and thats a fact of life. Wanting and actively supporting conversion therapy is extremely authoritarian and akin to supporting painting all black people white because a book said so. Humans are diverse, if you want to take away the diversity and characteristics of humanity that by law have absolutely no wrong, you are an authoritarian. Citizens of a free country, as adults, can attempt to engage in "praying the gay away" on their own free will. However, they are engaging in a practice against all facts of science and an extremely low "success rate" (which is lying to yourself) and are putting themselves at risk.

    Despite christian myths, homosexuality is not something to be "cured". It is not bestiality, pedophilia, cannibalism, etc. It is a sexuality. You can wave your book around all you want but the fact of the matter is you are ignorant to reality and are hurting innocent people, a disgrace to religion.

    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotYeshuaBought
    why so serious?
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaBought ; Unless one possesses a relationship with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus as Lord (John 14:6) and one possesses the indwelling Holy Spirit of God as the Seal and Guarantor of that relationship (Ephesians 1:13), their prayers don't rise past the ceiling of the room said prayers are offered (John 9:31) unless the unredeemed are seeking forgiveness of sin and righteousness by believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as Lord.

    If the homosexual-lesbian truly repents of their sin and turns to Jesus as Lord for healing and redemption (2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:9; Matthew 4:17), they will be saved and find new life, healing, peace, joy, contentment, purpose and meaning in Jesus via the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 3:16; 1 John 2:27; Galatians 5:22-23). God knows your heart and the intentions of that heart (Jeremiah 17:10).



    I am more concerned about how Jesus Christ feels about me, than I am about how you feel about me. He is my World, you are not.
    smoothieZeusAres42
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @JesusisGod777888


    ***** I have alltoghether written you off as a retard so like Dee you're going to be ignored.

    Translation ........You’re sick of getting your whipped as you have the intelligence of an unwatered pot plant 
    YeshuaBoughtsmoothieHappy_Killbot
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    If it is possible to "pray the gay away" It should also be possible to make someone gay through prayer.
    YeshuaBought
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesar said:
    @ZeusAres42
    @Happy_Killbot

    The general understanding of this that I have is that the placebo effect works through the mobilisation of human organism that occurs when the person believes in something. If the pill you are taking makes you believe that you are getting better, then your physiology works in a way it would if you were actually getting better, and that, in turns, becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, when the organism "faking" it becoming better ends up making it.

    It is true that it is not a magical pill that can solve all your problems instantly, but by continuous repetition of the practice that you believe can make you happier, healthier and so on, you can fry certain beliefs into your brain, and they can override the prior wiring significantly.

    I have only met one person who actually has become a heterosexual, while originally being bisexual, through doing years of hard psychological work. It seems to be rare, but, at the same time, possible.
    I would question why anyone would want to do that, however, unless they are living in a society so oppressive, that even hiding their sexual preferences there is difficult.

    @MayCaesar ; I understand where you're coming from but no amount of placebo or any kind of conditioning will change someone's biological makeup. And in regard to you meeting someone that is both anecdotal and consisting of multiple variables in regard to their sexual makeup. And from my understanding, there is no such thing as a psychological conditioning process that does this.



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    I am not convinced that biological makeup completely defines one's sexual preferences, and I am not aware of any scientific research that would conclude that this is the case. I think it is more complicated than this, and there are countless examples of people changing their certain sexual preferences, say, from White women to Asian women. Why can it not go further? I had a funny case of two female friends, one of whom was a lesbian, but ended up dating a guy, and another was straight, but ended up marrying a girl. These things may be much more flexible than we tend to think.

    It is even possible that there is no such thing as "straight" or "homosexual" people; perhaps we are all somewhat pansexual, some of us just do not discover some of our sexual sides.

    In any case, psychological conditioning has been known to achieve incredible (both in positive and negative sense) results, both on the individual scale, and on the population scale, with regards to a large variety of psychological goals. Unless someone convincingly demonstrates that our biological makeup prevents our brain from being rewired through psychological conditioning this way (and I do not see how it can be demonstrated with a large degree of confidence), I suggest keeping an open mind.
  • MayCaesar said:
    @ZeusAres42

    I am not convinced that biological makeup completely defines one's sexual preferences, and I am not aware of any scientific research that would conclude that this is the case. I think it is more complicated than this, and there are countless examples of people changing their certain sexual preferences, say, from White women to Asian women. Why can it not go further? I had a funny case of two female friends, one of whom was a lesbian, but ended up dating a guy, and another was straight, but ended up marrying a girl. These things may be much more flexible than we tend to think.

    It is even possible that there is no such thing as "straight" or "homosexual" people; perhaps we are all somewhat pansexual, some of us just do not discover some of our sexual sides.

    In any case, psychological conditioning has been known to achieve incredible (both in positive and negative sense) results, both on the individual scale, and on the population scale, with regards to a large variety of psychological goals. Unless someone convincingly demonstrates that our biological makeup prevents our brain from being rewired through psychological conditioning this way (and I do not see how it can be demonstrated with a large degree of confidence), I suggest keeping an open mind.

    @MayCaesar ; Firstly, I think you need to be careful not to equivocate sexual orientation with sexual feelings and so forth. Secondly, psychological things have achieved many things but there is no such thing as a psychological conditioning process where one can change their biological orientation. If a homosexual is able to believe themselves a heterosexual then by the same logic a man should be able to become a woman just by believing himself a woman.

    In regard to your last comment, I could just and I think more appropriately say that I think until someone demonstrates that they can change their biological makeup we should refrain from concluding that it can happen because we either like to think it can or because we met an individual who said they did it.

    I guess I'm just kind of pessimistic as well as a skeptic. I would prefer to call myself more of a realist though. ;)



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    Homosexual/heterosexual is a preference; man/woman is a biological trait. It is possible that homosexuality/heterosexuality is connected to some inherent biological trait, but it is also possible that it is not.
    I agree with you that sexual orientation and sexual feelings are different things, but they do intersect quite significantly.

    I do not necessarily say that it absolutely can happen; I merely propose that it is a possibility, for the lack of solid evidence of the contrary. And assuming this possibility, at the very least, is helpful in that it forces you to not think in one dimension about these issues. The idea that someone calling themselves heterosexual can one day meet a person of their gender who they will be sexually attracted to is good to keep in mind, so they do not miss on opportunities.
  • MayCaesar said:
    @ZeusAres42

    Homosexual/heterosexual is a preference; man/woman is a biological trait. It is possible that homosexuality/heterosexuality is connected to some inherent biological trait, but it is also possible that it is not.
    I agree with you that sexual orientation and sexual feelings are different things, but they do intersect quite significantly.

    I do not necessarily say that it absolutely can happen; I merely propose that it is a possibility, for the lack of solid evidence of the contrary. And assuming this possibility, at the very least, is helpful in that it forces you to not think in one dimension about these issues. The idea that someone calling themselves heterosexual can one day meet a person of their gender who they will be sexually attracted to is good to keep in mind, so they do not miss on opportunities.

    @MayCaesar I'm afraid that is not correct. Sexual orientation is biological. I think you need to be cautious not to equivocate sexual preference with the everyday use of the word preference such as in "I preferer  a sandwich instead of a baguette today." The evidence on the biology of sexual orientation is conclusive and has been for a while now:

    Biological origins of sexual orientation and gender identity: Impact on health

    Multidisciplinary evidence reveals that a sexually dimorphic spectrum of somatic and neurologic anatomy, traits and abilities, including sexual orientation and gender identity, are conferred together during the first half of pregnancy due to genetics, epigenetics and the diversity of timing and function of sex chromosomes, sex-determining protein secretion, gonadal hormone secretion, receptor levels, adrenal function, maternally ingested dietary hormones, fetal health, and many other factors.
    (Gynecologic OncologyVolume 149, Issue 1, April 2018, Pages 33-42 - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S009082581731510X_)

    In light of this, I would also contend that it is not possible to change one's orientation either through the placebo effect or any pseudo-psychological conditioning. I don't mean to use the word pseudo derivatively by the way but until this stuff (and I highly doubt it ever will) ends up in any credible psychological sources this is the word I will continue to use when referring to stuff about believing yourself to change biological traits and any other psychological myths.

    With that being said, there is a phenomenon where people of one orientation can and have changed their sexual choices temporarily and this behavior is also seen in other mammals. But I will contend that this has nothing to do with any kind of psychological conditioning.



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -   edited January 2020
    @ZeusAres42

    I suppose, one should clarify what exactly they mean by "sexual orientation" in these discussions. If sexual gender preferences are not the same as sexual orientation, then what exactly is sexual orientation? If, suppose, someone has the heterosexual orientation biologically, but is observed to primarily sexually interact with the person of the same gender - then what exactly do we call it?

    There is clearly observed lower fraction of "active" homosexuals in countries in which homosexuality is frowned upon by the society, than in countries in which it is mostly seen as a non-issue. Now, you could attribute it to the fact that people in societies which ostracise homosexuals are incentivised to hide their sexuality, and that is true - but I am not convinced that this explains the entirety of the observed difference.
    It seems to me that societies ostracising homosexuals naturally condition people to suppress their homosexual urges. Perhaps it does not make them into heterosexuals but, instead, into asexuals. Or into "latent homosexuals", whatever it means. Or maybe into something else. Or maybe they just stay homosexuals and delude themselves. All of these possibilities are distinctly different, and some deeper classification may be needed to describe them.

    Some people who have gone through the brutal Chinese reeducation camps have been known to claim to have gotten rid of their homosexuality. Maybe they are lying to us (and to themselves); maybe they are just saying whatever the Chinese government forces them to; maybe it is wishful thinking; maybe they were not homosexuals to begin with, but thought they were... Either way, this is the evidence that requires some explanation, and there are a few other pieces of evidence like this known to me.

    Psychology is a very murky subject, and it is extremely difficult to connect the observed effects to the underlying phenomena, given the variety of phenomena coming into play. I prefer to reserve my judgement on most psychological issues until a very conclusive evidence arises that something absolutely can or absolutely cannot happen.
    I know that my sexual preferences (not with regards to gender, but with regards to race and some other things) have changed profoundly throughout my life. Does it mean that my orientation has changed? Again, it depends on what exactly you mean by "orientation". To me, it seems that orientation is what has changed: I went from "mostly prefer Arabic and white women" to "do not care about the race" to "mostly prefer Asian women" to "prefer Asian women so much, I cannot see myself ever having a relationship with anyone else". If this is not orientation (or whatever its race analogue is), then I wonder what is. But maybe I am using the wrong terminology here, in which case my mind is open to be changed.
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