For ****s and giggles: Can Christians be prochoice?

Happy_Killbot

The bible doesn't support or denounce abortion because it didn't have the foresight to think of something that would happen in the future.
numbers 5:11-31 is about the miscarriage of an unfaithful wife, not abortion. It's a trick were the guilty party is forced to admit the wrong because of action they must take.

I guess the issue just slipped gods mind...

Happens to the best of us...

To explain the trick, I think this story will make it more obvious: I judge with several suspects needs to know who is the offender, so he tells the suspects he has a magic bell, that will ring if they are guilty. They are all asked to touch the bell inside a private room 1 by 1 so they will know who is guilty.

When the suspects emerge, the judge inspects their hands to check for ink, which was placed on the bell in secret before the trial. The guilty member will have no ink on his hands, having not touched the bell out of fear, while the other suspects will touch the bell without fear, and stain their hands.

smoothie

A christian can be anything they so desire.

Some may look at it as the taking of a life and thats where some religion comes in, but overall yes there can be prochoice christians if they think the same way as you

RickeyD

@YeshuaBought ; Abortion is murder and God's Commandment specifically tells the Christian that murder is sin; therefore, a Christian cannot be pro-choice.  #6

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Does suicide count as murder?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ;  Yes, suicide is murder of one's own body. This is why the penal code prohibits suicide.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD I agree.

Alright, so what about something lesser, say you were lost in the woods with a broken arm, would cutting it off an eating it be suicide?

YeshuaBought

smoothie said:

A christian can be anything they so desire.

Some may look at it as the taking of a life and thats where some religion comes in, but overall yes there can be prochoice christians if they think the same way as you

Yes they can, be whatever they want. What people do, is between them, and God.

YeshuaBought

RickeyD said:

@YeshuaBought ; Abortion is murder and God's Commandment specifically tells the Christian that murder is sin; therefore, a Christian cannot be pro-choice.  #6

I will never have a baby, and that is my right. I would rather be dead, than pregnant, and that is my absolute right to choose.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; That's a tad weird.  Unless amputating the arm resulted in death it would not be suicide and with that said, intent would be relevant e.g. did the person cut their arm off to murder them self or did they remove the arm in order to prevent sepsis and death not knowing that the amputation would result in death? The point is, "mens rea," is it present or not?

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Except that you technically are killing yourself, just not the whole body.

Remember, your body is made up of trillions of individual cells that are in and of themselves alive.

If someone cannibalizes their own arm, isn't that a very specific if not strange type of suicide then, even though that part of them is not conscious in any way?

Plaffelvohfen

I think they should, when it comes to other people's choice... For themselves though, if they are to be consequent with their beliefs, I don't think they can be, but that might be arguable depending on the specific christian sect one is a member of...

I certainly would not hold it against any christian if they were to say they are pro-choice...

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; If there is no death of the body as a whole, there is no death of the body at all because there is no transference of the spirit. The Scriptures denote and define three-forms of death:

1) Spiritual - a fragmenting/fracturing of the relationship between God and mankind.

2) Physical - a cessation of the life processes in the body constrained by time and a freeing of the spirit to enter Eternity. Anything short of this is not physical death.

3) Second death - a death of the body and soul in Hell subsequent to the Judgment of the Condemned.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD So we are only interested in the second one here then.

If you cut off a limb it dies without the support of the body. If this is done by oneself, is it not suicide, and if it is done by someone else, is it not murder?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Unless the heart ceases to circulate blood and the brain dies .. there is no death. Amputation of a body part is not murder. Now, I think I know where you're going with this and a child in the womb is NOT a body part but a unique life with unique DNA, purpose, design, a future, provided by our Creator.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Every different type of cell in the body has separate DNA, purpose, design, and future. Some cells will mutate into cancers, which are in and of themselves separate life-forms, some of which will long outlive the life of the person from who they were formed, effectively becoming immortal. That is what cancer is, cells which have forgotten how to die.

The majority of macroscopic multi-cellular life forms are not immortal the way single cells are, where they split in two so as to produce offspring, not killing the original but rather doubling it's potential. It is therefore dubious to say if one is the original and the child, or if the original is dead and replaced with two daughters. organisms that give birth through sexual reproduction the lines get fuzzy, however I would argue that the human race is not lots of individuals, but rather one organism with many independent parts, as such we are all connected through shared biology.

The abortion debate is one of definitions, at what point if ever should we consider something a person?

Is it when it develops a heart and brain? Or is it the moment two gametes merge to form a zygote? Is it based on an arbitrary time after conception?

Surely, there can be no answer to this question without making arbitrary assumptions.

If an omniscient god is capable of forming a grand plan that involves people, then how can it be that any action of man can destroy it? Or put another way, how can we say that a woman getting an abortion is not part of god's plan?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; There are no assumptions and the person-hood of the child in the womb has been settled by God and science. There is no arguing that from the moment of conception, there is life, unique DNA has formed apart from the mother and father and this is substantiated by science; therefore, taking that "life" in the act of abortion is murder. Regardless of how one attempts to obfuscate this reality, they do so in vain.  Where there is "life" there is the right to life-liberty-the pursuit of happiness as guaranteed via due process by the 5th and 14th Amendments to the US Constitution.

When Does a Human Person Begin?

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1305-when-does-a-human-person-begin

Life begins at Fertilization

http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/25/science-life-begins-makes-pro-choicers-look-terrible/

Life begins at Conception: HHS

In fact, science now confirms that "life" begins at conception: https://www.liveaction.org/news/new-hhs-strategic-plan-protects-american-lives-beginning-conception/

Pediatricians agree: Life begins at conception:

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

Princeton agrees, life begins at conception:

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

US Government Now Says: Life begins at conception

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/yw397w/government-hhs-now-says-life-begins-at-conception

Life Begins a Fertilization, video

https://twitter.com/LiveAction/status/1068861776329093121

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Except that the ruling that someone is a unique child from the moment of conception because they have unique DNA has formed apart from the mother and father has all sorts of undesirable consequences, one of which we have already discussed.

If a zygote is to be considered a unique person then cutting off your arm is suicide, even if you do it so that the rest of the body might live.

To make matters worse, your body has natural killer cells that are part of your immune system, and will cause cells to self-destruct should they become badly damaged or infected. This means that your own body is Killing itself constantly.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/natural_killer_cell.htm

If abortion is murder because an undeveloped mindless brainless mass of cells is a separate life form, then everyone commits suicide, millions of times over every single day. Where are the 5th and 14th Amendments to the US Constitution when these cells, many of which could turn into cancer, which might be argued to be it's own person, are thoughtlessly slain?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ;

1) No, cutting off your arm is NOT suicide and a "zygote" or "baby" is not a body part but a separate and unique life. The severed arm has no life or soul in and of itself...the arm is not created in the image of God.

2) Our DNA, in mutational - replication is destroying itself as per The Curse on Adam...this is why we die.

3) Because our cells are degenerating this is NOT indicative of "suicide" because there is no mens rea or intent involved in the natural process of genomic mutational degeneration and malformations.

 

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD In theory, you could cut off someone's arm or use their DNA to produce a new person. Would this be the same person as before, or an entirely new person?

The cells are not degenerating exactly, although the natural killer cells target cells that are physically damaged. Despite this, it is very much a direct and intentional "killing" of some of your cells by other cells.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; No, you cannot create a new life from a dead arm. Won't happen. Even if you could, that DNA would be soul-less as a clone...there might be a spark of life in Time but the life would have no purpose or destiny.

2) There is ZERO mens rea/intent in the natural process of death of the body. It is intent, mens rea, that defines murder, abortion, suicide.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD We are currently engaged in many major advancements in medicine, including the ability to grow/3d print new organs from a person's own cells. This technology is advancing rapidly, and it is expected to be commonplace in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9W-MBhrG2c

If this technology proves capable, then it would not only be possible, but it would be inevitable that we could print entirely new people, people that would not have formed inside the womb. (not exactly, the cells still must be sourced from someone who was conceived in a womb)

Are you suggesting, that all of these people are forsaken, even though there is no difference between them and the person they were made from?

Would killing one of these people be murder then, if as you suggest they have no purpose or destiny?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot

1) Regardless of advancements in science, mankind will NEVER "create life."

2) A clone would not be a person but an object...an image of the original void a soul, a destiny, God's Plan...cloning propagates futility and non-personhood.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD I think we are getting a little off topic here don't you think?

Anyways, if a clone is somehow an object, then is it acceptable for clones to be aborted?

Or for that matter, what about artificial wombs?

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

There is no such physical entity as "soul" that has been demonstrated to exist in any way by anyone. "Soul" is a human concept, and whether a given object has a soul or not depends solely on one's perspective. In fact, Shintoism, a religion I am quite fond of, views all objects as having souls: not just humans and animals, but also plants, rocks, air and even imaginary categories like ideas or beliefs.

And even if "souls" actually exist, there is no reason for us to not be able to artificially craft new souls in a distant future. Since we do not even know what these souls are like, we cannot even remotely predict how they operate from the scientific point of view.

Humans create life every time they give birth, every time they turn on incubators on farms, and so on. That you do not acknowledge it as life due to your Christian beliefs does not change the fact that it is life by the biological definition of the world, and that is the only definition worth using here.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar The more I think about this, the more I realize it is just a really deep rabbit hole of philosophical madness.

If a zygote is naturally conceived and then is removed from it's mother and placed in an artificial womb, why should that negate it's soul should one exist?

Or the other way, if a zygote is formed unnaturally, perhaps by reverting living cells to their zygote form, then this zygote is implanted into a woman and birthed naturally, why should that negate it's soul, should one exist?

If there is such a thing as a soul, then science should be capable of creating one, even if we do not at the moment have any ability to do so.

I can't even begin to think about what this would imply, but I suppose it is easiest to handle by assuming the soul is just something made up, or an elaborate and personal metaphysical construct.

There are all sorts of philosophical and spiritual issues that I don't think any existing religion is really capable of handling, now that the science and engineering is on the cusp of making such things a reality.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

1) It is your soul/spirit that provides life and the ability to interact in Time to your body. Void the soul/spirit, the body is dead and functional-less. You are NOT your body but you ARE your soul...your soul is separate from your body and is not affected by the death of the body but simply freed from the constraints of physics/Time and enters Eternity.

Jesus said...

 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."  Matthew 10:28 (NASB)

The Holy Spirit via the Apostle Paul said...

"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."  2 Corinthians 5:8 (NASB)

2) The soul/spirit of man is just that, spirit, created in the image of the Living God and mankind cannot "recreate" a spirit.

"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."  Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NASB)

3) Humans do NOT "create life" but through the process  of coitus there is a combining/fusion of male spermatozoa with the female reproductive cell formed into an ovum...this is NOT creation but the taking of that which already exists and combining same to "make" new and unique DNA. It is our Creator that infuses the soul/spirit (LIFE) into this new and unique DNA that creates life; otherwise, there would be no LIFE.

"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."  James 2:26 (NASB)

"For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well."  Psalm 139:14-15 (NIV)

4) Life in the womb is distinct and separate from the mother (no bodily autonomy exists in pregnancy for the mother) and the father providing the DNA...the life in the womb is relevant because God has placed the spirit, created in His image, into that DNA and God has sanctified that life as belonging to Him and no one has the right to take that life and if they do, said person has committed infanticide, murder, and stolen what belongs to God. The one who aborts a child usurps God's authority and His plan for that life. Unless the culprit culpable for the murder of God's property repents of their horrific sin and sincerely trusts in Jesus as Lord for the mediation of that sin, they will suffer and die a most horrific death in Hell. 

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Clones are not life, they are an image of the original and are soul-less and without intrinsic value both in Time and Eternity. Each DNA is unique and receives a spirit specifically for that DNA...there are no cloned spirits; therefore, tampering with God's design is dangerous, futile, deadly.

YeshuaBought

RickeyD said:

@Happy_Killbot ; Clones are not life, they are an image of the original and are soul-less and without intrinsic value both in Time and Eternity. Each DNA is unique and receives a spirit specifically for that DNA...there are no cloned spirits; therefore, tampering with God's design is dangerous, futile, deadly.

If clones are not life, neither is the naturally formed zygote.

RickeyD

@YeshuaBought ; That "zygote" is formed by DNA and given life by our Creator...this is a child created in the spirit in the image of the Living God. A clone is a restructuring of DNA that has previously been sanctified and infused with life via the spirit by the Spirit of God...that original unique DNA is the ONLY DNA that received God's spirit. If man clones said DNA into some form of "life" in Time...that life has no person-hood because the spirit is unified and one with the original DNA.

When you advocate for, support, involve yourself in abortion, you steal from God and your thwart His plan for life...this is sin, a most horrific sin and the resultant/loss of same is manifest for every generation that is denied what that life had to offer. How many lost souls are on the head of those who murdered God's life in the womb...a life that would have lead another to Jesus but now dies in Hell without knowledge...a life that would have taken the Gospel to millions, but now these die without ever hearing of Jesus?

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD I feel like this just skirts a lot of the hard questions that come out as a necessity of these lines of thought.

First off, there is nothing that says that a baby has to develop exclusively inside the mother, that is to say, babies could be developed in an artificial womb. This is another technology that is rapidly advancing, and perhaps in the future this will be the only way that babies are born.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190326105650.htm

This is another one of those technologies that would just absolutely break the abortion debate, because if a mother doesn't have to suffer to raise a child why would she want to?

Furthermore, other technologies are already in use that kind of break the god put his image in DNA view, that I also find quite bizarre, although I respect your right to have an opinion. It is already possible to separate sperm and egg for particular traits, for example to remove a particular genetic disease. In the future it may be possible to completely choose which genetic characteristics one's children will have.

If their was a person who had completely unique DNA, ( either through random mutations starting from single celled zygote or one of it's gamete contributors, or intentionally through genetic engineering) would that then imply that they were not made by god, and on top of this, would this not imply that they were free from sin, having not been born directly from man?

I think you will agree that the bible doesn't discuss DNA, at least not as we currently understand it, as a physical characteristic of the body. Your views that put DNA on a pedestal I find quite...interesting...I don't think the bible is equipped to deal with the moral and philosophical implications of any of these things, which isn't surprising when you consider that it was written in a time before people were aware of any of the processes that go on to make birth happen.

YeshuaBought

RickeyD said:

@YeshuaBought ; That "zygote" is formed by DNA and given life by our Creator...this is a child created in the spirit in the image of the Living God. A clone is a restructuring of DNA that has previously been sanctified and infused with life via the spirit by the Spirit of God...that original unique DNA is the ONLY DNA that received God's spirit. If man clones said DNA into some form of "life" in Time...that life has no person-hood because the spirit is unified and one with the original DNA.

When you advocate for, support, involve yourself in abortion, you steal from God and your thwart His plan for life...this is sin, a most horrific sin and the resultant/loss of same is manifest for every generation that is denied what that life had to offer. How many lost souls are on the head of those who murdered God's life in the womb...a life that would have lead another to Jesus but now dies in Hell without knowledge...a life that would have taken the Gospel to millions, but now these die without ever hearing of Jesus?

No it isn't, the Bible doesn't talk about zygotes. The idea of a zygote being a baby, makes no sense at all. Don't be so fanatical, about your own ideas.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD You realize the way that the zygote becomes a fetus is by cloning itself,(splinting in two, again and again) right?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot

1) Regardless of where the baby matures, it is life and it is murder to steal that life void due process.

2) You ask a question in absurdity?  What mother who possesses wisdom, decency, love, compassion, suffers due to raising a child? Your question is ugly and demeaning. Place the unwanted child in a refuge but don't murder same out of personal convenience.

3) Every child is born into sin as a result of their father's DNA from Adam though that child is not culpable for sin until such time they attain an age of reason/accountability.

4) The Bible is the only source available to mankind in general that DOES deal with the issues of sin, morality, culpability, sin-nature, repentance, forgiveness, righteousness.

5) The Gospel of Jesus Christ finds its origin "before the beginning of Time." (MEME)  There are no older writings or writings possessing Truth as do the Scriptures.  They will be used to judge you in Eternity.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Can you suggest an experiment that allows one to detect a soul existing outside a body? Do animals have souls? What about plants? Inanimate objects? Abstract concepts? What is the evidence of that?

As far as I am concerned, "soul" is a concept made up by ancient philosophers who did not have a good scientific explanation of how life works and prescribed an imaginary concept in the attempt to describe it. Nowadays science has a pretty good idea of how organic life works, and there is no need for imaginary concepts to fill the gaps in our knowledge any more.

Also, stop using quotations from the Bible as evidence. The Bible is just one book, not any more truthful than Lord of the Rings or 50 Shades of Grey. Give me an actual, demonstrable evidence of your claims, rather than vague passages from a book from over two millennia ago.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ;

Meiosis is NOT cloning. Cloning is a form of mitosis, which produces cells that are identical to each other. Cloning couldn't be meiosis because meiosis creates cells that are genetically different from each other. (1) In cloning, you are transferring the nucleus of one cell into another cell to be divided to create identical cells.

RickeyD

@YeshuaBought ; The Bible discusses our Creator forming us in the womb He knows us before we are formed and born...every child belongs to God and when you destroy that child in abortion, you steal from God and you murder a life of purpose, dignity; a life that would have been used by God for a specific purpose in Time to possibly touch the lives of countless millions.  What if Mary had aborted to save her marriage with Joseph and hide what could have been public shame?

"When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."  Luke 1:41-44

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; 1) I believe what the Holy Spirit has said about the spirit of man and life. Subsequent to 31-yrs as a police officer, I've seen far too many bodies absent the spirit...I assure you, that life-force has gone somewhere.

2) What you believe about the soul/spirit is wholly irrelevant. You are dying daily in sin without knowledge and you exist without hope.  It is not wise to follow the philosophy of men but you should be developing a relationship with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord...then you would receive the indwelling Holy Spirit and you would no longer suffer from spiritual ignorance and the foolishness of man but you would know the mind of Christ.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD I agree that life is life regardless of where it develops, what I don't understand is why this would not apply to clones.

I searched for "bible suffering in childbirth" and the top list says there are 27 verses pertaining to labor pains...

John 16:21

"Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Labour-Pains

So if there is no DNA from a father, then that would imply that the child was born without sin, would it not?

What does the bible say about clones, or DNA?

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD ; A Zygote does not reproduce through meiosis, it reproduces through mitosis, meaning each cell (up to a certain point) is a clone of the original.

In fact, if you separate several of these cells you can actually develop them both into a person.

Sometimes it happens naturally.

We call those people identical twins, and it is possible for them to share 100% identical DNA, effectively making them a natural clone.

Based on one of your above comments:

@Happy_Killbot ; No, you cannot create a new life from a dead arm. Won't happen. Even if you could, that DNA would be soul-less as a clone...there might be a spark of life in Time but the life would have no purpose or destiny.

2) There is ZERO mens rea/intent in the natural process of death of the body. It is intent, mens rea, that defines murder, abortion, suicide.

This would imply that one of the twins lacks a soul or a purpose.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD ; A Zygote does not reproduce through meiosis, it reproduces through mitosis, meaning each cell (up to a certain point) is a clone of the original.

In fact, if you separate several of these cells you can actually develop them both into a person.

Sometimes it happens naturally.

We call those people identical twins, and it is possible for them to share 100% identical DNA, effectively making them a natural clone.

Based on one of your above comments:

@Happy_Killbot ; No, you cannot create a new life from a dead arm. Won't happen. Even if you could, that DNA would be soul-less as a clone...there might be a spark of life in Time but the life would have no purpose or destiny.

2) There is ZERO mens rea/intent in the natural process of death of the body. It is intent, mens rea, that defines murder, abortion, suicide.

This would imply that one of the twins lacks a soul or a purpose.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot

1) Labor pains are a curse upon Eve and her daughters for having relented to the enticement of Lucifer (Genesis 3:16). Labor pains are also used as an analogy for the "end times" via eschatology.

2) It is because the child is born from the father's seed that they are encumbered by the sin-nature.  This is why Messiah was born through the womb of a virgin in order to bypass the sin-nature of Adam and Adam's male children. Adam received the edict concerning compromise with evil directly from Elohim; therefore, Adam assumed greater culpability for The Fall than Eve who received God's edict by hearsay from her husband Adam.  This is why the first prophecy of Messiah being born of the seed of the woman is found in The Genesis immediately subsequent to The Fall. It is Adam's seed that passes the sin-nature, not Eve's. Note the struggle between the seed of the woman (Yeshua-Jesus) and the Devil...a struggle which culminated at the Crucifixion some 4000-years later.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Technology can circumvent the curse of labor pains, so in the context of the development of artificial wombs, wouldn't this mean that such technologies ought to be used specifically to make up for that short coming, and this would imply a complete lack of the need for natural birth, eviscerating the abortion debate?

So, this would imply then that clones or genetically engineered people would be free from sin then?

Another thing that doesn't make much sense, where did Jesus's Y chromosome come from? The way conception works there would have had to be a source of the other half of the genome.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; God placed life in both twins and even though they are "identical" they are uniquely TWO...souls and as you know, identical twins are not truly identical...there are unique characteristics and personalities in each.

You said: "A Zygote does not reproduce through meiosis, it reproduces through mitosis, meaning each cell (up to a certain point) is a clone of the original."

The zygote, or fertilized egg, is a single cell produced by fusion of female and male germ cells, that is, the unfertilized egg and sperm, respectively. Since germ cells undergo meiotic divisions to a haploid state (n) during oogenesis and spermatogenesis, fusion of the unfertilized egg and sperm (fertilization) restores a diploid (2n) number of chromosomes to the zygote. In mammals, the second meiotic division of the egg, with separation of chromatids, occurs shortly after fusion with sperm. At an appropriate time after fertilization, the zygote begins to divide mitotically, eventually giving rise to a multicellular organism that exhibits all of the characteristics of the species.

This is not cloning...this is unique life from an original blueprint given by God.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

I am not discussing your or my beliefs. I am asking what evidence there is for anything having a soul. You claimed that you have seen many bodies absent a soul, but have you seen souls absent a body? Can we detect these floating souls with some scientific equipment, or are all claims of their existence exist purely in people's heads?

So far it seems that all your claims about souls come down to "I believe...". That is good and all; you can believe in souls, goblins, unicorns, Flying Sexy Potato Monster or whatever else. I am asking about the evidence, not your beliefs, and you have nothing to respond with.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD A clone would have a different personality and characteristics too though, this is what I don't understand about your view.

In the case of the zygote I'm talking about after it is fertilized and developing into an embryo, as you can read in that copy/paste from wikipedia "he zygote begins to divide mitotically, eventually giving rise to a multicellular organism"

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; The evidence is in the Scriptures. If you don't believe the Scriptures...you have no hope.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; The clone is not original DNA...it's a copy of same. It's much like a print from an original painting. Even in man's lost and dying World, which has more value, the original work or the copy?  God infuses the spirit in the original DNA, the copy is void a soul created in the image of the Living God...therefore there is no true life in a replication no authentication. Besides all of this, successful cloning of humans is highly unlikely and fraught with ethical and physiological problems: see: https://www.livescience.com/32083-cloning-people-biology.html

smoothie

@MayCaesar It is extremely hard to rationalize with a person living in a different reality than us

smoothie

RickeyD said:

I've seen far too many bodies absent the spirit...I assure you, that life-force has gone somewhere.

this is unique life from an original blueprint given by God.

God infuses the spirit in the original DNA

Have you observed this spirit or life-force? Can you prove that the life-force has actually gone somewhere? Can you prove that a spirit exists?

Is there ANY evidence?

I recommend trying to do this without your holy texts and then you can begin to understand our points...

I know you hate science but this method does have its purpose