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The reason Theism is a viable concept

Debate Information

Theism touches on things most people have no answers for, Death, Life, and Consciousness.
Extending life, preventing death, events after death - no answers.
Our inner conversations about existance and purpose - no answers.

For these reasons, it is logical to study Theistic viewpoints.

PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotRickeyDsmoothie
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  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  


    ***** Theism touches on things most people have no answers for, Death, Life, and Consciousness. 

    What do you mean no answers for”? I understand what Death and Life are,  Consciousness is interesting in itself what do I need to know about it?



    *****Extending life, preventing death, events after death - no answers.

    Why would I want to extend life? Events after death? “Events” to me will not happen after I’m dead the definition of death should explain this adequately 


    ***Our inner conversations about existance and purpose - no answers.

    Inner conversations regarding me is I’m born , I live , I die end off. Purpose? To enjoy my life and enjoy the ride 

    ****For these reasons, it is logical to study Theistic viewpoints.

    I’ve studied them and concluded there  is zero evidence for a god or anything supernatural at all , not one shred of evidence has been put forward for such in the thousands of years since some genius came up with the greatest money making racket and controller of people of all time as in religion 

    Belief in a god is a faith based position which is believing something without evidence which proves  its based mainly on indoctrination and nothing else 

    Whats your best god / afterlife proof?

    Blastcat
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    All of those questions have answers, but not the kind you are looking for.

    Theism does not and can not extend life, prevent death, or cause events after death. These are the realm of medicine and science.

    Theism does not and can not answer our inner conversations about existence and purpose. These questions are the realm of philosophy.

    When you assume there is some purpose to existence, you are setting yourself up for failure, because there is none unless you make it yourself.

    The first stage of grief is denial, it is marked by magical thinking, hopeful rationalizations, and lies to ones self. Is there any doubt that religion is an institution designed to ensure no one gets past this first stage?

    If you let go of the fear, there is only one way forward, and on the other side is absolute freedom. You are what you want to be, you become what you make yourself, and none of this is possible with a "divine purpose".

    The purpose of religion is to call down the anxious masses, and the purpose of theism is to give authority to those who can not handle the freedom of meaninglessness.

    Image result for religion is denial
    Plaffelvohfensmoothie
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  

    >>>All of those questions have answers, but not the kind you are looking for.<<<
    What is the atheist's answers to these questions?

    >>>Theism does not and can not extend life, prevent death, or cause events after death. These are the realm of medicine and science.<<<
    >>>Theism does not and can not answer our inner conversations about existence and purpose. These questions are the realm of philosophy.<<<
    No one claimed theism did, I only claimed that these questions are touched on, referenced, and has information.
    I am interested in the atheist's answers to these questions?

    >>>When you assume there is some purpose to existence, you are setting yourself up for failure because there is none unless you make it yourself.<<<
    Interestingly, this might be one of your answers.
    If you have no purpose do you question your existence?
    If your answer is no. Then maybe you can explain your understanding of the nature of reality.

    >>>The first stage of grief is denial, it is marked by magical thinking, hopeful rationalizations, and lies to one's self. Is there any doubt that religion is an institution designed to ensure no one gets past this first stage?<<<
    So are you saying everyone in religion is grieving?

    >>>If you let go of the fear, there is only one way forward, and on the other side is absolute freedom. You are what you want to be, you become what you make yourself, and none of this is possible with a "divine purpose".<<<
    In letting go of the fear, are you saying you welcome death?
    What do you mean by "the other side is absolute freedom"?
    Sounds like you are saying Theism hinders people, in what ways?

    >>>The purpose of religion is to call down the anxious masses, and the purpose of theism is to give authority to those who can not handle the freedom of meaninglessness.<<<
    Are you comparing meaninglessness to freedom?
    The more meaningless you feel the freer you feel?

  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  

    >>>What do you mean no answers for”? I understand what Death and Life are,  Consciousness is interesting in itself what do I need to know about it?<<<

    I believe you are talking about the concepts of life and death if you are referring otherwise:
    Please explain why do the cells in people's bodies cease to replicate?


    >>>Why would I want to extend life? Events after death? “Events” to me will not happen after I’m dead the definition of death should explain this adequately <<<

    So are you saying if there was a way to extend life you would reject it?
    If you were terminally ill, but the doctor had a way to return you to health to extend your life, you are telling me you would reject it?


    >>>Inner conversations regarding me are I’m born, I live, I die; end off. Purpose? To enjoy my life and enjoy the ride<<<

    I believe you are referring to the acceptance of what will occur during your life span, in case you are not referring to that:
    Why is that the framework of human existence?
    If there is no purpose in life, then why can we not change our framework?


    >>>I’ve studied them and concluded there is zero evidence for a god or anything supernatural at all, not one shred of evidence has been put forward for such in the thousands of years since some genius came up with the greatest money-making racket and controller of people of all time as in religion<<<

    I understand your viewpoint, nevertheless, both atheists and theists point to the same evidence for their conclusions.


    >>>Belief in a god is a faith-based position which is believing something without evidence which proves it's based mainly on indoctrination and nothing else<<<

    I appreciate your consistent stand on this topic.
    The Bible doesn't define faith as belief, only dictionaries do, which came out way after the Bible.


    >>>What's your best god/afterlife proof?<<<

    The fact that DNA can be used to clone someone.
    I think eventually they will discover a way to restore all memory.
    This to me is indicating how it is possible to restore life after death.

  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Sand Yes, I am saying that everyone who is deeply religious is grieving, and the beliefs act as a mask to cover that grief. They do not want to accept the reality that death is inevitable, and loved ones are never coming back. So they invent a soul and an infinite afterlife to deal with the suffering and guilt.

    Theism does hinder people, it keeps them from achieving their true potential or taking their lives seriously. Why would they need to when they have an eternal afterlife to sort everything out?

    To be a theist is to throw your life away to delusion.

    I am not saying that meaninglessness = freedom, what I am saying is that freedom can not exist with meaning.

    Consider, if there is a "divine purpose" you don't get to decide what it is. Maybe the entire purpose of reality was to collect stamps, or to make cupcakes. Perhaps the purpose would be to sneeze as many times as possible, or simply to accelerate the heat death of the universe. That is in and of itself potentially more horrifying than the possibility of no objective meaning. That is what I mean when I say that theists can not handle the freedom of meaninglessness.

    The answer to those questions is one that follows from actual truth, but most people would not consider these answers satisfying:

    Why does life exist?

    Because the conditions for life exist in this universe, so it was inevitable given the right circumstance and time. It just does for no reason.

    Why does death exist?

    Because entropy must increase, and eventually high entropy will eliminate the conditions for life to exist. It has to happen because of physics.

    What is consciousness?

    Consciousness is a property of the brain, a specific set of computational bound physical qualities emerging from neuronal interactions. We still don't know.

    When theism answers these questions, they do so from ignorance. Theists assume they know the answer, when what they really have is wild speculation derived from wishful thinking, These beliefs which have evolved to better take advantage of humans and the human condition over the centuries, to be what humans would call a satisfying answer, but one devoid of objective truth.

    This is what theism is. There are no answers there, only comforting lies.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Sand Yes, I am saying that everyone who is deeply religious is grieving, and the beliefs act as a mask to cover that grief. They do not want to accept the reality that death is inevitable, and loved ones are never coming back. So they invent a soul and an infinite afterlife to deal with the suffering and guilt.

    Theism does hinder people, it keeps them from achieving their true potential or taking their lives seriously. Why would they need to when they have an eternal afterlife to sort everything out?

    To be a theist is to throw your life away to delusion.

    I am not saying that meaninglessness = freedom, what I am saying is that freedom can not exist with meaning.

    Consider, if there is a "divine purpose" you don't get to decide what it is. Maybe the entire purpose of reality was to collect stamps, or to make cupcakes. Perhaps the purpose would be to sneeze as many times as possible, or simply to accelerate the heat death of the universe. That is in and of itself potentially more horrifying than the possibility of no objective meaning. That is what I mean when I say that theists can not handle the freedom of meaninglessness.

    The answer to those questions is one that follows from actual truth, but most people would not consider these answers satisfying:

    Why does life exist?

    Because the conditions for life exist in this universe, so it was inevitable given the right circumstance and time. It just does for no reason.

    Why does death exist?

    Because entropy must increase, and eventually high entropy will eliminate the conditions for life to exist. It has to happen because of physics.

    What is consciousness?

    Consciousness is a property of the brain, a specific set of computational bound physical qualities emerging from neuronal interactions. We still don't know.

    When theism answers these questions, they do so from ignorance. Theists assume they know the answer, when what they really have is wild speculation derived from wishful thinking, These beliefs which have evolved to better take advantage of humans and the human condition over the centuries, to be what humans would call a satisfying answer, but one devoid of objective truth.

    This is what theism is. There are no answers there, only comforting lies.
    I disagree with you on this. Jesus is the Love of my life, and He always will be, so what's the problem? It is my right to live for Jesus, and worship Him.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought
    Would you defend an anti-vaxer, who does not get their child vaccinated because they have a child who is afraid of needles?
    YeshuaBought
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought
    Would you defend an anti-vaxer, who does not get their child vaccinated because they have a child who is afraid of needles?
    That is not relevant to my statement, at all. I made a statement about Jesus being the Love of my life, and I have the right to live for Him, and worship Him. Nowhere in my statement, did I mention political issues, such as vaccines, or anything else. I love and respect you, but find your question to be a little dishonest. :(
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Sand



    **** I believe you are talking about the concepts of life and death if you are referring otherwise:


    Yes



    ****Please explain why do the cells in people's bodies cease to replicate?


    It’s something I’ve never really thought about , and what is had to do with theism is beyond me 




    ****So are you saying if there was a way to extend life you would reject it?


    Sure , if I was 99 years old and all my family and friends were dead it would be a mercy to end it 



    ****If you were terminally ill, but the doctor had a way to return you to health to extend your life, you are telling me you would reject it?


    If my life was terrible yes otherwise no , but that’s not your point is it?




    ****I believe you are referring to the acceptance of what will occur during your life span, in case you are not referring to that:


    Yes that’s what I’m saying , we know of no other life 


    ****Why is that the framework of human existence?


    Because it’s based on the best evidence we have all else is based on nothing but idle speculation 



    ****If there is no purpose in life, 


    But there is for me anyway as I clearly stated 


    ****then why can we not change our framework?


    I don’t follow Sand?




    ****I understand your viewpoint, nevertheless, both atheists and theists point to the same evidence for their conclusions.


    You may have to explain that remark. My conclusions are based on the available evidence I cannot say 100 percent there is no afterlife or indeed a god  the burden of proof is with the theist because he /she is making the positive claim yet cannot prove such if they could I would be a believer 




    ****I appreciate your consistent stand on this topic.


     Thank you , I appreciate your enquiring mind and your ability to ask excellent questions on such topics 


    ****The Bible doesn't define faith as belief, only dictionaries do, which came out way after the Bible.


    Well as a former Catholic I used to refer to Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for conviction of things not seen 


    Pretty much sums it up “hope “ and conviction of “things not seen”



    ****The fact that DNA can be used to clone someone.


    That does not prove a god 


    ****I think eventually they will discover a way to restore all memory.

    This to me is indicating how it is possible to restore life after death.


    But that would be down to humans and not a god 

    Blastcat
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought It's an analogy that I can use to demonstrate my point.

    Anti-vaxxers are often portrayed as being belligerent, gullible, and , but I think the reality is much simpler:

    Anti-vaxxers have children who do not like needles.

    They want to do good by their children, as this is part of the natural bond between parent and child, when the child is afraid of needles the parent acts to remove this source of distress from the child's life.

    What happens next is the parent goes to the internet and finds articles, videos, blogs, and other pseudo-science that support the claim.

    This information becomes the belief, and the front for the parent's rebellion against reality.

    Thus parents who choose not to get their children vaccinated are grieving over their instinct to protect their children, and as a result do exactly the opposite of the thing that is in the child's and everyone else's best interest.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    Theism is just anthropomorphizing the unknown / unknowable... It's an unjustified ego/anthropocentric point of view... 

    There is no need for a god, theistic or deistic, although I have a lot less arguments against deism, which I think, while still fundamentally unnecessary, is nonetheless a viable theory...
    If all theists became deists, the world would be a much better place to live in...
    Happy_KillbotZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought It's an analogy that I can use to demonstrate my point.

    Anti-vaxxers are often portrayed as being belligerent, gullible, and , but I think the reality is much simpler:

    Anti-vaxxers have children who do not like needles.

    They want to do good by their children, as this is part of the natural bond between parent and child, when the child is afraid of needles the parent acts to remove this source of distress from the child's life.

    What happens next is the parent goes to the internet and finds articles, videos, blogs, and other pseudo-science that support the claim.

    This information becomes the belief, and the front for the parent's rebellion against reality.

    Thus parents who choose not to get their children vaccinated are grieving over their instinct to protect their children, and as a result do exactly the opposite of the thing that is in the child's and everyone else's best interest.
    No it isn't. What you posted has nothing to do with this topic, and slightly dishonest. If you want a one on one debate with me about vaccines, let me know, but don't put words in my mouth. We are on a debate discussing theism, and I posted about Jesus being the Love of my life. What you posted has nothing to do with that.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Except it has everything to do with it.

    Anti-vaxxers are as much a belief as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, white supremacy, flat earth society, Scientology, or lizard people conspiracy.

    Consider how that line of thought could be reexamined with theists instead of anti-vaxxers. This is the point I am making.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    How does your love of Jesus adds to, or informs, this debate about theism? Not sure I understand what you're implying, can you elaborate? 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Except it has everything to do with it.

    Anti-vaxxers are as much a belief as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, white supremacy, flat earth society, Scientology, or lizard people conspiracy.

    Consider how that line of thought could be reexamined with theists instead of anti-vaxxers. This is the point I am making.
    No it doesn't. I mentioned Jesus, not a political issue, and I will not discuss politics, on a religious debate. I never said anything about political issues, and I will not have this conversation, with you. When you are ready to be honest and mature, let me know. You don't even know what I believe regarding the issue, so how dare you put words, in my mouth?
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about belief, which is the cornerstone of theism.

    I'm not sure where I put words in your mouth.

    Theism is not about just Jesus, it also is about Muhammad, Buddha, Vishnu, Cthulhu, and so many others. Theism is the belief in a god or gods.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about belief, which is the cornerstone of theism.

    I'm not sure where I put words in your mouth.

    Theism is not about just Jesus, it also is about Muhammad, Buddha, Vishnu, Cthulhu, and so many others. Theism is the belief in a god or gods.
    I posted about my right to live for Jesus, and you asked me about vaccines. What you asked me, was off topic, and dishonest. I love and respect you, but I am losing my patience.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    How does your love of Jesus adds to, or informs, this debate about theism? Not sure I understand what you're implying, can you elaborate? 
    I believe Jesus is God, and i know how to prove it, from the Bible.
    Dee
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Alright, so what if I ask the question in a different way?

    Would you defend a cult leader, who believes that self-mutilation or flagellation is required for salvation?
    (some actual cults still do this and the Catholic church practiced it in the past)
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 953 Pts   -   edited January 2020
    @Sand ; I see that the blind and hating atheists have already thumbed-down your premise but I agree with you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, the atheist is content with living in their fleshly lust and the pride of life and they are perfectly content to remain in spiritual ignorance while pursuing the lies of Satan in naturalism. Thank you for your contribution to Truth and perhaps one of these lost souls deceived and blinded by Satan will garner the courage and wisdom to step outside the confines of their naturalistic worldview and seek life, love and peace with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of sin.

    “There are honest doubters and dishonest doubters. An honest doubter is willing to search out the truth and live by the results; a dishonest doubter doesn’t want to know the truth. He can’t find God for the same reason a thief can’t find a policeman.” Adrian Rogers




    Blastcat
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Alright, so what if I ask the question in a different way?

    Would you defend a cult leader, who believes that self-mutilation or flagellation is required for salvation?
    (some actual cults still do this and the Catholic church practiced it in the past)
    I would not support said leader, because that practice is not Biblical, and I believe God gave us the free will, to make our own decisions, about Him. The Bible says salvation is not by works, in Ephesians 2:8-9.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    How does your love of Jesus adds to, or informs, this debate about theism? Not sure I understand what you're implying, can you elaborate? 
    I believe Jesus is God, and i know how to prove it, from the Bible.
    I understand that and it's perfectly fine but "theism" doesn't not mean "Jesus"... Zeus, Thor, Jesus, Mohammad, Vishnu, all are theistic deities...

    Theism is the concept, Jesus, Thor, Zeus and others are specific models/brands of theism... Do you understand the difference? Maybe I'm not good at explaining, that is why I'm asking if you get what I'm saying here...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    How does your love of Jesus adds to, or informs, this debate about theism? Not sure I understand what you're implying, can you elaborate? 
    I believe Jesus is God, and i know how to prove it, from the Bible.
    I understand that and it's perfectly fine but "theism" doesn't not mean "Jesus"... Zeus, Thor, Jesus, Mohammad, Vishnu, all are theistic deities...

    Theism is the concept, Jesus, Thor, Zeus and others are specific models/brands of theism... Do you understand the difference? Maybe I'm not good at explaining, that is why I'm asking if you get what I'm saying here...
    Yes for me, it does, and that is my right. i respect the right of others to their opinion, but I also have the right to mine.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I think you are missing the point here, would you respect that person's right to believe that?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I think you are missing the point here, would you respect that person's right to believe that?
    I don't have to answer the question, because you are off topic. i will not discuss that any further, and will only discuss theism, on this post, not other people's opinions.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought We are talking about if theism is a viable concept or not. In order to justify it, we need to talk about belief in general, because if one theistic view is viable, then what makes it more viable than the others, given there is no stronger evidence for say, Vishnu over Elohim.

    If you don't want to answer the question, that is your choice, however it would seem to support my thesis that belief is tied to grief, and in the case of religion specifically the grieving over reality, and in particular over death and the absence of purpose.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought We are talking about if theism is a viable concept or not. In order to justify it, we need to talk about belief in general, because if one theistic view is viable, then what makes it more viable than the others, given there is no stronger evidence for say, Vishnu over Elohim.

    If you don't want to answer the question, that is your choice, however it would seem to support my thesis that belief is tied to grief, and in the case of religion specifically the grieving over reality, and in particular over death and the absence of purpose.
    I don't have to answer your question, but I am willing to discuss theism. What do you have to say, about theism?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    You can give any answer to any question, but not all answers are created equal. If I ask you, "Why is 2+2=4?", and you say, "Because of pink elephants", then, even though you have answered my question, you have not given me any useful information. Similarly, if I ask you, "Why am I here?", and you answer, "Because god has a plan for you", then you have not given me any useful information, and there is no way for me to verify your answer in any way. It is a useless answer void of substance, and you could just as well say, "Because the Flying Potato Monster wants to make a soup out of you once you are dead." It is not an answer worth taking seriously.

    When I do not know/understand something, I prefer to say that I do not know/understand something and try to look for valid answers, as opposed to coming up with any answer I can think of and think the matter resolved. When you did not know how to drive a car, did you take lessons to learn how to do it, or did you just say to comfort yourself, "The god has a plan for me, and it cannot be for me to die in a car accident, so I should be able to drive a car somehow"? Random comforting answers are generally useless when it comes to practical matters, and you have to instead put in some work to find real answers and learn something valuable. They can support you temporarily if, for example, you are at a very low point in your life and just need someone to tell you what you want to hear to gain the strength to move on - but they are unlikely to lead to significant long-term benefits, and you need to put in some real effort for that.

    Some of the most profound changes I had in my life occurred at those points when I realised that I was doing something wrong systematically and said, "This ends now. I am changing my behavior, however hard and painful it is." Not when someone told me, "You are doing fine, mate, just do not worry about anything". I am happy for any support, but I prefer to hear real, practical advice containing useful tangible information, as opposed to random fluff to make me feel more comfortable.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenBlastcat
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    Theism does not and can not extend life, prevent death, or cause events after death. These are the realm of medicine and science.

    Theism does not and can not answer our inner conversations about existence and purpose. These questions are the realm of philosophy.

    When you assume there is some purpose to existence, you are setting yourself up for failure, because there is none unless you make it yourself.

    The first stage of grief is denial, it is marked by magical thinking, hopeful rationalizations, and lies to ones self. Is there any doubt that religion is an institution designed to ensure no one gets past this first stage?

    If you let go of the fear, there is only one way forward, and on the other side is absolute freedom. You are what you want to be, you become what you make yourself, and none of this is possible with a "divine purpose".

    The purpose of religion is to call down the anxious masses, and the purpose of theism is to give authority to those who can not handle the freedom of a meaningless existence.

    To believe in a god and an afterlife is to grieve. That is what I have to say about theism.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    Theism does not and can not extend life, prevent death, or cause events after death. These are the realm of medicine and science.

    Theism does not and can not answer our inner conversations about existence and purpose. These questions are the realm of philosophy.

    When you assume there is some purpose to existence, you are setting yourself up for failure, because there is none unless you make it yourself.

    The first stage of grief is denial, it is marked by magical thinking, hopeful rationalizations, and lies to ones self. Is there any doubt that religion is an institution designed to ensure no one gets past this first stage?

    If you let go of the fear, there is only one way forward, and on the other side is absolute freedom. You are what you want to be, you become what you make yourself, and none of this is possible with a "divine purpose".

    The purpose of religion is to call down the anxious masses, and the purpose of theism is to give authority to those who can not handle the freedom of a meaningless existence.

    To believe in a god and an afterlife is to grieve. That is what I have to say about theism.
    I disagree with your opinion, and I always will. I believe in god, because it makes sense to do so, and because of what He has done for me. Whether you do or don't say yes to Him is your choice, but I hope you do, some day.
  • smoothiesmoothie 434 Pts   -  
    Believing in answers with no real world evidence or evidence against, throws logic out the window entirely. It appeals to the ignorance fallacy.

    Is it logical to believe that Mickey Mouse and friends roam the Earth right now?

    why so serious?
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    smoothie said:
    Believing in answers with no real world evidence or evidence against, throws logic out the window entirely. It appeals to the ignorance fallacy.

    Is it logical to believe that Mickey Mouse and friends roam the Earth right now?

    You have the right to your thoughts, and so do I. I will believe whatever I want, whether other people like it, or not. I am absolutely certain of Jesus, who I believe to be God. Peace to you. :)
    smoothie
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought How do you know he did anything for you?

    Do you even know he is a "he"?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought How do you know he did anything for you?

    Do you even know he is a "he"?
    The Bible refers to god as a He, so while I respect the rights of others, I reserve the right to believe what the Bible says. There is no proof that God is a she, according to the Bible.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought The bible also mentions a talking donkey, and the sun standing still. Did those things happen?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought The bible also mentions a talking donkey, and the sun standing still. Did those things happen?
    I belive what the Bible says, and that is my right, hun. Don't be so defensive. I don't bear you ill will, so chill. I love everyone. i just reserve my Christian rights, as you reserve your skeptical rights.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I don't think you want to answer my questions because you know where they lead.

    http://www.econdolence.com/learn/articles/first-stage-of-grief-denial/

    Tell me, can you imagine a world which things happen for no reason in particular, where everything is random and chaotic, where there is no good or evil to speak of, only random absurdity?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought I don't think you want to answer my questions because you know where they lead.

    http://www.econdolence.com/learn/articles/first-stage-of-grief-denial/

    Tell me, can you imagine a world which things happen for no reason in particular, where everything is random and chaotic, where there is no good or evil to speak of, only random absurdity?
    I don't have to answer you question. I will discuss god, and the Bible. End of story.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought There are other theistic beliefs besides god and the bible you know.

    Why won't you discus those? Theism applies to them too.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  
    >>>Yes, I am saying that everyone who is deeply religious is grieving, and the beliefs act as a mask to cover that grief. They do not want to accept the reality that death is inevitable, and loved ones are never coming back. So they invent a soul and an infinite afterlife to deal with the suffering and guilt.<<<

    Your words indicate this is a rather new invention. Whereas the concept has existed for centuries, not to say this changes the viability, just the application.
    Nevertheless, your thoughts are interesting.


    >>>To be a theist is to throw your life away to delusion.<<<
    Let's go with the concept that it is a "delusion".
    If it is what is the purpose of encouraging others to let go of this delusion.

    Optimism could be in someways considered a delusion.
    Pessimism could be considered more a realist.
    Of what benefit would it be to have a more Pessimistic view than an Optimistic view?
    Would it be beneficial for the world to be more optimistic than pessimistic, or do you feel a balance is needed?


    >>>I am not saying that meaninglessness = freedom, what I am saying is that freedom can not exist with meaning.<<<

    I find your response here most intriguing.
    Let me propose another scenario: Say your life has no purpose, once you have intercourse due to your own choice, and procreate offspring, your purpose in life will be to raise the offspring. Does that purpose reduce your freedom? I guess what I am asking:
    Is your freedom reduced when you voluntarily choose a purpose or when you are given a purpose?


    >>>Because the conditions for life exist in this universe, so it was inevitable given the right circumstance and time. It just does for no reason.<<<

    Then what is the harm of a different take on life, than the one presently accepted?
    Is it because misery loves company?
    If life truly has no reason what is the harm in people developing reasons for their lives?
    Is it a threat to the atheist that people will find a reason for their lives?


    >>>Because entropy must increase, and eventually, high entropy will eliminate the conditions for life to exist. It has to happen because of physics.<<<

    So your take is that all life will eventually cease to exist?


    >>>Consciousness is a property of the brain, a specific set of computational bound physical qualities emerging from neuronal interactions. We still don't know.<<<

    Since we do not know everything about consciousness.
    Doesn't it seem the deeper we delve into physics, the stranger the mechanics of our universe become?
    Because man is constantly discovering new particles and fundamental forces, from molecules to atoms, that control our bodies and the world around us.
    Could it be determined that it is a possibility that our universe could be governed by a dimension or force that we'll never experience in any direct way?




  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  

    >>>Yes, I am saying that everyone who is deeply religious is grieving, and the beliefs act as a mask to cover that grief. They do not want to accept the reality that death is inevitable, and loved ones are never coming back. So they invent a soul and an infinite afterlife to deal with the suffering and guilt.<<<

    Your words indicate this is a rather new invention. Whereas the concept has existed for centuries, not to say this changes the viability, just the application.
    Nevertheless, your thoughts are interesting.


    >>>To be a theist is to throw your life away to delusion.<<<
    Let's go with the concept that it is a "delusion".
    If it is what is the purpose of encouraging others to let go of this delusion.

    Optimism could be in someways considered a delusion.
    Pessimism could be considered more a realist.
    Of what benefit would it be to have a more Pessimistic view than an Optimistic view?
    Would it be beneficial for the world to be more optimistic than pessimistic, or do you feel a balance is needed?


    >>>I am not saying that meaninglessness = freedom, what I am saying is that freedom can not exist with meaning.<<<

    I find your response here most intriguing.
    Let me propose another scenario: Say your life has no purpose, once you have intercourse due to your own choice, and procreate offspring, your purpose in life will be to raise the offspring. Does that purpose reduce your freedom? I guess what I am asking:
    Is your freedom reduced when you voluntarily choose a purpose or when you are given a purpose?


    >>>Because the conditions for life exist in this universe, so it was inevitable given the right circumstance and time. It just does for no reason.<<<

    Then what is the harm of a different take on life, than the one presently accepted?
    Is it because misery loves company?
    If life truly has no reason what is the harm in people developing reasons for their lives?
    Is it a threat to the atheist that people will find a reason for their lives?


    >>>Because entropy must increase, and eventually, high entropy will eliminate the conditions for life to exist. It has to happen because of physics.<<<

    So your take is that all life will eventually cease to exist?


    >>>Consciousness is a property of the brain, a specific set of computational bound physical qualities emerging from neuronal interactions. We still don't know.<<<

    Since we do not know everything about consciousness.
    Doesn't it seem the deeper we delve into physics, the stranger the mechanics of our universe become?
    Because man is constantly discovering new particles and fundamental forces, from molecules to atoms, that control our bodies and the world around us.
    Could it be determined that it is a possibility that our universe could be governed by a dimension or force that we'll never experience in any direct way?


  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought There are other theistic beliefs besides god and the bible you know.

    Why won't you discus those? Theism applies to them too.
    I don't have to discuss other theistic beliefs, because I disagree with them, due to lack of Biblical evidence, and that is my right. I have the right to disagree with something.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    I would like to correct a slight misconception in your overall very sound reasoning: the law of entropy increase does not directly suggest that eventually all life will be gone. Entropy increase is a purely statistical phenomenon; it is not some hard physics law and does not strictly hold in relatively small confined systems. In principle, nothing prevents there being, say, a solar system constantly recreating itself in a small region of the Universe, leading to an endless cycle of life appearance and disappearance.

    The actual reason we believe nowadays that one day the Universe will be void of life or any other macroscopic structures is that the Universe expands, and that expansion accelerates; current models predict that at some point, very-very far into the future, the expansion will become so rapid, that atoms will no longer be held together by molecular forces, and everything will be literally ripped apart. However, we still do not quite understand why the Universe expands, or how the rate of that expansion changes with time; it is quite possible that the rate flattens out at some point, or even becomes negative, and then there is no telling whether macroscopic structures in the Universe will ever be purged.

    There is also an older argument regarding the "ultraviolet catastrophe" according to which all matter will eventually be converted into pure radiation. However, particle physics contradicts that, as, first, radiation can be converted into matter spontaneously (and will do so repeatedly to maintain the equilibrium between the amount of radiation and matter), and second, radiation does not always annihilate matter and can instead merely decrease its energy temporarily.

    The law of entropy itself, as I want to emphasize here, is a statistical phenomenon, not a hard physics law, and it has its limitations. If you have a box with two sections and start with, say, 100 molecules in one section and 0 in another section, then after a certain period of time the molecules will become fairly equally distributed between these sections - at that point the entropy of the system will be maximized, and there will be no entropy increase to be had. And while on the scale of the Universe it is unlikely that entropy will ever be maximized in a way preserving some macroscopic structure (in this simplified case, for example, the box itself is preserved), it could very well flatten out at some point, increasing progressively slower and slower, leading to something akin to a converging series that does not sum up to infinity.

    This is a fascinating topic, both from the philosophical and physical perspective.
    SandBlastcat
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Sand No, this is not a new invention, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion but it is not my intention to exhibit such.

    Of what benefit would it be to have a more Pessimistic view than an Optimistic view?
    Would it be beneficial for the world to be more optimistic than pessimistic, or do you feel a balance is needed?
    Belief in god is a very pessimistic world view, so I might ask you the same question. Obviously a balance is needed because pessimism sometimes leads to greater work being done, for example an optimistic doctor might decide that everything was going to be alright whereas a pessimistic doctor might double check some things. There is such a thing as too optimistic, and such a thing as being too pessimistic. Both are examples of delusion, and in any case pulling someone out of the extreme is beneficial.
    Let me propose another scenario: Say your life has no purpose, once you have intercourse due to your own choice, and procreate offspring, your purpose in life will be to raise the offspring. Does that purpose reduce your freedom? I guess what I am asking:
    Is your freedom reduced when you voluntarily choose a purpose or when you are given a purpose?
    The answer is yes. It doesn't matter if it is given or assumed, either way by taking an option and making choices you reduce your freedom. You can not change past decisions. However, if there is some given objective purpose, there is no freedom whatsoever.
    Then what is the harm of a different take on life, than the one presently accepted?
    Is it because misery loves company?
    If life truly has no reason what is the harm in people developing reasons for their lives?
    Is it a threat to the atheist that people will find a reason for their lives?
    Read what I wrote about anti-vaxxers, that should give you a clue.
    Christians are affably miserable aren't they? I don't understand why people don't just get over it instead of living in denial of reality.
    You are going to die and there is nothing after that, you are not here for any purpose unless you make one for yourself. The problem is that religion literally comes knocking at your door to try and sell you their "purpose" which is just a bunch of made up beliefs. The atheist is not so weak of constitution that they should need such lies to get out of bed in the morning.
    So your take is that all life will eventually cease to exist?
    That's not my take on it, it's statistical truth. Even if we somehow find a way to magically reverse entropy through some kind of clark-tech the likes of which might not even be possible, life will still eventually cease to exist, and the universe will become a dark and desolate place, where all energy is equally distributed. Perfect equality for all things everywhere.
    Doesn't it seem the deeper we delve into physics, the stranger the mechanics of our universe become?
    Because man is constantly discovering new particles and fundamental forces, from molecules to atoms, that control our bodies and the world around us.
    Could it be determined that it is a possibility that our universe could be governed by a dimension or force that we'll never experience in any direct way?
    It's possible that cupcakes are the center of reality or everything is made out of potatoes.

    "could" is not really a useful term. Think about all the infinite possibilities that "could be determined" to govern the universe. Theism just picks some at random that made people feel good about themselves and then slaps a "truth" sticker on it with no evidence or validation. This is the problem with theism and why it is completely irrelevant, it just isn't useful when trying to determine actual truth, and I wish theists would stop wrongly labeling it as such, or else we are going to have to invent a new word.
    Sand
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Muslims rely on the bible heavily, doesn't that have any value to you?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  

    >>>You can give an answer to any question, but not all answers are created equal. If I ask you, "Why is 2+2=4?", and you say, "Because of pink elephants", then, even though you have answered my question, you have not given me any useful information.<<<

    True, but if no one can give any other viable answer, it warrants analyzing the only answer given.
    Instead of saying there is no answer.


    >>>Similarly, if I ask you, "Why am I here?", and you answer, "Because God has a plan for you", then you have not given me any useful information, and there is no way for me to verify your answer in any way. It is a useless answer void of substance, and you could just as well say, "Because the Flying Potato Monster wants to make a soup out of you once you are dead." It is not an answer worth taking seriously.<<<

    If that answer was given to you, you are telling me you would not prepare for this outcome? Especially in the absence of nonviable information?
    That is fascinating.
    I mean we all understand an answer that does not pertain to the question or an answer that is incorrect.
    But if it is the only answer giving in a field where no other answers pertain.
    Are you saying lack of understanding means a lack of truth?
    So you feel that if you do not completely understand the answer given, it is not true?


  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar I understand how entropy works, and I have read about the implications of such, for example the emergence of Boltzmann brains from fluctuations in the quantum foam.

    However, that very same mechanism guarantees that at some point, all life will cease to exist for exactly the same reason. Sooner or latter, with no energy differential with which to perform life functions everything will die.

    Even if in some corner of the universe an entire solar system capable of supporting life just happens to form, which despite the improbability continuously replenishes with fresh resources, it too will die eventually given enough time.

    While there is nothing that says you can't roll two dice to always get snake eyes, sooner or latter you will get 7 and you will be out of luck.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought Muslims rely on the bible heavily, doesn't that have any value to you?
    No they don't. They refuse to accept the Biblical fact that Jesus is God, and the only Way to Heaven.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought The Quran and the bible are basically the same book, and many passages are identical, very obviously inspired. Many point to the bible as predicting the rise of Muhammad:

    "Deuteronomy 18:18-20 "I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."


    What says they are not right, and Islam is not the inspired word of god, as even the bible suggests?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought The Quran and the bible are basically the same book, and many passages are identical, very obviously inspired. Many point to the bible as predicting the rise of Muhammad:

    "Deuteronomy 18:18-20 "I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."


    What says they are not right, and Islam is not the inspired word of god, as even the bible suggests?
    No they aren't. The Bible says that Jesus is God, and the Quran says otherwise.
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