Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or God?

Plaffelvohfen

To be honest, Sin is like Santa, it only exists in the mind of the gullible... It's just another attempt at coercing large number of people...

RickeyD

Sin entered the World through Adam, the first man, at the behest and deception of Lucifer. Lucifer introduced the sin of covetousness into the Kingdom of God and was extricated for same and Adam introduced the sin of disobedience into the Kingdom/Realm of Time.

GnosticChristian

Plaffelvohfen said:

To be honest, Sin is like Santa, it only exists in the mind of the gullible... It's just another attempt at coercing large number of people...

I disagreed with you because, analogically speaking, sin is to religion what crime is to philosophy.

Sin, as a concept, does not only exist in the mind of the gullible religious, it also exists in the minds of the progressive side of religions. 

That progressive side is our friend in fighting the right wing conservatives. 

Did you have anything to offer on Eden, because that myth has been used to discriminate and denigrate women and gays ever since Christians changed the moral of the story from it's Jewish view of our elevation and success for both man and god in Eden, to a failure of all, except Satan.

Regards
DL

Happy_Killbot

I find the theological position that all people are born inherently evil and with sin to be both condescending and manipulative.

The evidence suggests that most people are good and moral from birth and only are pushed to do things that are not in the interest of others when the circumstances require such actions, and eventually they become pathological.

When theists suggest that they are the only ones who know the path to salvation, they make the assumption that all others are and ignorant, and when they impose their perspective on others it is most always for personal gain.

GnosticChristian

RickeyD said:

Sin entered the World through Adam, the first man, at the behest and deception of Lucifer. 

I know the myth says that.

Who put Lucifer right there beside Eve, and why did your omni-present god just sit there and let Eve be deceived? 

Did God want Eve deceived, and was that a part of the --- sin is a happy fault and necessary to god's plan --- thing that Christian say?

Would you have allowed her to be deceived if you were god? 

Regards
DL

P.S. I see that you like to be brief and then preachy. Stop it or I will ignore you.
Good apologetics should have you looking for my question marks, as I do with yours.
Please help me get better and also make you better at apologetics.
Christianity is running out of those.

GnosticChristian

RickeyD said:

Lucifer introduced the sin of covetousness into the Kingdom of God and was extricated for same and Adam introduced the sin of disobedience into the Kingdom/Realm of Time.

Being omni-present, the kingdom of god is everywhere, unless he lost some of his kingdom somehow to another. Not possible. Right?

Are you saying that Lucifer and not Adam brought sin to the earth?

I see Eve disobeying first as she took the first bite of knowledge. Smart woman. That would have been the first coveting but I do not see anything wrong with wanting to gain knowledge.

If your children did not want that, you would be disappointed. Right? Why do you think god got angry enough to later murder A & E by neglect and locking away the tree of life?

Regards
DL

GnosticChristian

Happy_Killbot said:

I find the theological position that all people are born inherently evil and with sin to be both condescending and manipulative.

The evidence suggests that most people are good and moral from birth and only are pushed to do things that are not in the interest of others when the circumstances require such actions, and eventually they become pathological.

When theists suggest that they are the only ones who know the path to salvation, they make the assumption that all others are and ignorant, and when they impose their perspective on others it is most always for personal gain.

I basically agree, from a religious POV.

As a esoteric ecumenist and naturalist, I do not see it as condescending. I see it a truth and as reality, but like Christianity singing that Adam's sin is a happy fault and necessary to god's plan, what we see as human to human evil, is indeed a happy fault for us and necessary to natures plan. Without the competition that causes all human to human evil, we would go extinct.

It is not so much that the bible is wrong, it is how we lose the message when we read it literally.

To your second statement.
You are correct that most people will default to cooperation or doing good as that is the best survival strategy.

Your third is bang on. Let me add.

Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise. He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance. Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants the worst is a slave in power-Robert Green Ingersoll

Regards
DL

RickeyD

@GnosticChristian ; Lucifer is the initiator of sin in the Kingdom of God and this resulted in his expulsion and is the causation for the creation of matter, Time, the Universe, Earth, mankind. God removed Lucifer, his sin, from the Kingdom and placed him upon the Earth to be dealt with within the constraints of Time apart from the Kingdom of God where nothing impure is permitted to dwell (Revelation 21:27).

Though Lucifer's sin accompanied him as he was placed upon the Earth and within The Garden, sin did not manifest and the Curse from same, on both man and nature, until Adam compromised with his wife and her suggestion that Adam compromise with the knowledge of evil.

If you study, you'll note that absolutely nothing pertaining to the ramifications of disobedience to God/sin occurred when Eve relented to Lucifer's deception. Not until Adam compromised with narcissism/evil/sin did the Curse manifest upon both Adam and his wife, Eve, as well as Nature.

The reason God did not consider Eve's unfaithfulness as breaking the Covenant of Sustenance in the Garden and the prohibition against compromising with evil is because Eve received God's edict to not compromise as hearsay from her husband, Adam. When Adam disobeyed God, Adam broke the Covenant that he had received directly from God Himself; therefore, Adam introduced sin into the human genome and Nature as well.

This is why Messiah, in the following verses subsequent to Adam's fall, articulate that Messiah would enter Time/the World through the seed of the woman...not man. Adam's seed passes the sin-nature through the blood-line; therefore, Messiah-Jesus entered Time through the womb of a virgin in order to circumvent the sin-nature and resulting death (physiological and spiritual) that manifests from the seed of man. It is in Adam that we all die in the body and it is in Adam that we are spiritually separated from God thus requiring our Mediator, Jesus Christ.

GnosticChristian

RickeyD said:

Lucifer is the initiator of sin in the Kingdom of God and this resulted in his expulsion and is the causation for the creation of matter, Time, the Universe, Earth, mankind. God removed Lucifer, his sin, from the Kingdom and placed him upon the Earth to be dealt with within the constraints of Time apart from the Kingdom of God where nothing impure is permitted to dwell (Revelation 21:27).

I am talking logos and you reply with mythos. 
Can you not, as scriptures say, come reason with me?

If Satan was somehow impure, and god was all there was in all that is, --- at the beginning, --- then anything evil or impure would have had to come out of him. He was all there was.

I thus refute your, "the Kingdom of God where nothing impure is permitted to dwell"  

Now if you want to try speaking to the other issues I brought up above and you ignored, I am her to help you understand your religion.

You will have to think more and ignore the false teaching you are full of.

Come back to lean, not teach, as given all the issues you ignore or do not deal with, you have nothin to taech me.

Regards
DL


   

Happy_Killbot

@GnosticChristian Consider your standard advertisement for any unnecessary product. Many of them start out by telling you that there is some problem and end by saying how their product/service is the solution.

Here is a clear example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=54&v=eeYYb0U7cJ0&feature=emb_logo

I find this to be very condescending, even though it is technically true.

Religions and the bible in particular take this a step further, because the problem on which it is based is fundamentally not verifiable. Sin is a made-up term. It's a problem that doesn't exactly exist.

I would also challenge the idea that human-to-human evils are somehow necessary for our survival, and I would do so on more than one level. For starters, I'm not convinced that such a thing as evil even exists. I think that this is an unnatural concept created by humans to anthropomorphize our surroundings and dehumanize others. Second, I can not think of any situations where human's must always take advantage of each other for survival, although there are situations where someone taking advantage of another is useful, I don't see this as an absolute requirement.

RickeyD

@GnosticChristian ; You do not understand the necessity of "free will"...you only speak without knowledge and substance...you refute nothing, you are Satan's child.

RickeyD

@GnosticChristian ; You do not understand the necessity of "free will"...you only speak without knowledge and substance...you refute nothing.

GnosticChristian

Happy_Killbot said:

@GnosticChristian Consider your standard advertisement for any unnecessary product. Many of them start out by telling you that there is some problem and end by saying how their product/service is the solution.

Here is a clear example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=54&v=eeYYb0U7cJ0&feature=emb_logo

I find this to be very condescending, even though it is technically true.

Religions and the bible in particular take this a step further, because the problem on which it is based is fundamentally not verifiable. Sin is a made-up term. It's a problem that doesn't exactly exist.

I would also challenge the idea that human-to-human evils are somehow necessary for our survival, and I would do so on more than one level. For starters, I'm not convinced that such a thing as evil even exists. I think that this is an unnatural concept created by humans to anthropomorphize our surroundings and dehumanize others. Second, I can not think of any situations where human's must always take advantage of each other for survival, although there are situations where someone taking advantage of another is useful, I don't see this as an absolute requirement.

Is evolution not describes as the survival of the fittest?
The fittest is found by competition. No competition = no fittest.
If there is no fittest, who leads or sets the standards of fitness?
If there is no standard, how long do you think a species will last?

You do not believe evil exists???

If you have good at one end of a graph of best results, what word do you put at the other end of the graph, and is it not a synonym for evil?

Sin is also a synonym for crime and evil. Let's not waste time arguing the definition of words.

Philosophy profs say that that happens at the end of a discussion/debate, not before. If before, then it kills the conversation before it even starts.

Regards
DL  

GnosticChristian

RickeyD said:

@GnosticChristian ; You do not understand the necessity of "free will"..

I already gave you the quotes that show Yahweh denying us free will.

Go away. You are not worth my time. All you are good for is cut and past as you cannot think or put anything but your simplistic garbage and abuse down. 

I would tell you to grow up but it seems that that train has already left. You should go back to school. You sure need it.

Regards
DL

MayCaesar

Going to have to agree with @Plaffelvohfen on this one: "sin" is a pretty illogical concept. "Sin", "karma" and other attempts to represent moral actions as a currency go against the very essence of what morals represent. One's moral quality cannot be devalued based on the past misdoings, or overvalued based on the past good deeds; what really matters is how that person acts now. There is no such thing as "sin" which sticks with you until you somehow wash it away.

This does not mean, of course, that you can just forget about your misdoings and go on with your life; more often than not, amends are in order. The purpose of those amends, however, is not to wash something out of you, but to compensate the person(s) you have wronged. As for you, what really matters is that you have learned your lesson, so you do not repeat this mistake again if you can help it.

It goes without saying that such thing as a sin transferring from one person to another, or consumed by one person off another, does not exist. Sin cannot enter the world "through someone"; all moral matters relevant to the person are confined to the person and are not transferable.

AlofRI

Sin DID enter the world through Adam. When Lilith told him to pound sand he didn't listen! He left her and went to Eve! Shame! He's no better than our own John! 

Happy_Killbot

@GnosticChristian Humans have effectively broken evolution. Our society changes on the order of generations, our cultures change on the order of lifetimes, and our technology changes on the order of years. Evolution simply can not keep pace with what humans can do with our intelligence. Humans are only marginally fit for survival in the wild, yet we have dominated the planet. Without our society, culture, and technology we are vulnerable and weak.

Many plants and animals that we rely on for food do not exist in nature, but rather were created by humans breeding them into existence. Humans have taken the fitness of nature and corrupted it to be fitness for man. We set the standard for many plants and animals, and they are the bulk of the species thriving in the Holocene extinction.

For the record, I don't exactly believe in "good" either, at least not as an objective part of reality. What is good and what is evil is subjective, such that good for one can be evil for another.

I don't believe in a black-and-white or binary morality, the "Disney" type of thinking where things and people are either absolutely good or absolutely evil. Like time, morality is relative, and depends on your frame of reference.

GnosticChristian

MayCaesar said:

Going to have to agree with @Plaffelvohfen on this one: "sin" is a pretty illogical concept.

 misdoings

So is misdoings.
 
My question was to find blame and put it on the right imaginary biblically character.

Do you have an opinion?

Regards
DL

JesusisGod777888

@GnosticChristian

You can't be a gnostic CHRISTIAN as gnosis is stupidity.

Second God hates satan, theres nothing to love.

Adam and Eve rebelled, an act contrary to the natural nature of human creation.

God's nature is divine and God does not accept evil.

Satan was an evil moron. He lied to himself, and lies to others. He saw Yahweh God exalted by creation and perversely wanted what he doesn't deserve, obvious because of his actions and inability and the qualities that dumbatertruck lacks.

Yahweh is rightfully God and able to rule because of his qualities and nature.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created to show mankind God's grace and mercy, and that Yahweh alone is capable of doing what is right. 

Man had to realize he is incapable without Yahweh God and that making his own decisions man fails because sin does not produce anything good.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

Read Romans 10:9 and stop your own rebellious attitude by submitting to Jesus Christ.

JesusisGod777888

@GnosticChristian

You can't be a gnostic CHRISTIAN as gnosis is stupidity.

Second God hates satan, theres nothing to love.

Adam and Eve rebelled, an act contrary to the natural nature of human creation.

God's nature is divine and God does not accept evil.

Satan was an evil moron. He lied to himself, and lies to others. He saw Yahweh God exalted by creation and perversely wanted what he doesn't deserve, obvious because of his actions and inability and the qualities that dumbatertruck lacks.

Yahweh is rightfully God and able to rule because of his qualities and nature.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created to show mankind God's grace and mercy, and that Yahweh alone is capable of doing what is right. 

Man had to realize he is incapable without Yahweh God and that making his own decisions man fails because sin does not produce anything good.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

Read Romans 10:9 and stop your own rebellious attitude by submitting to Jesus Christ.

JesusisGod777888

@GnosticChristian

You can't be a gnostic CHRISTIAN as gnosis is stupidity.

Second God hates satan, theres nothing to love.

Adam and Eve rebelled, an act contrary to the natural nature of human creation.

God's nature is divine and God does not accept evil.

Satan was an evil moron. He lied to himself, and lies to others. He saw Yahweh God exalted by creation and perversely wanted what he doesn't deserve, obvious because of his actions and inability and the qualities that dumbatertruck lacks.

Yahweh is rightfully God and able to rule because of his qualities and nature.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created to show mankind God's grace and mercy, and that Yahweh alone is capable of doing what is right. 

Man had to realize he is incapable without Yahweh God and that making his own decisions man fails because sin does not produce anything good.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

Read Romans 10:9 and stop your own rebellious attitude by submitting to Jesus Christ.

JesusisGod777888

@GnosticChristian

You can't be a gnostic CHRISTIAN as gnosis is stupidity.

Second God hates satan, theres nothing to love.

Adam and Eve rebelled, an act contrary to the natural nature of human creation.

God's nature is divine and God does not accept evil.

Satan was an evil moron. He lied to himself, and lies to others. He saw Yahweh God exalted by creation and perversely wanted what he doesn't deserve, obvious because of his actions and inability and the qualities that dumbatertruck lacks.

Yahweh is rightfully God and able to rule because of his qualities and nature.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created to show mankind God's grace and mercy, and that Yahweh alone is capable of doing what is right. 

Man had to realize he is incapable without Yahweh God and that making his own decisions man fails because sin does not produce anything good.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

Read Romans 10:9 and stop your own rebellious attitude by submitting to Jesus Christ.