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Why is the virgin birth of Messiah a necessity?

Debate Information

Atheist confused concerning the necessity of the virgin birth of Messiah-Jesus. An explanation...

The first prophecy concerning Messiah's birth via the seed of the woman is Genesis 3:14-15. Messiah's virgin birth was a necessity due to Adam's culpability for the Curse resulting in a corrupted genome, a sin-nature, death of the body and spiritual death...a chasm created between mankind and God due to rebellion and disobedience.

So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:14-15 (NKJV)

If you remember, when Eve succumbed to the enticement of Lucifer in Eden, nothing happened. Elohim took no affirmative action concerning judgment or wrath. Not until Adam compromised with Eve and rejected God Covenant of Provision that hinged upon not compromising with evil did Elohim search-out Adam and subsequently pronounce The Curse for disobedience (Genesis 3:17-19). It is Adam that bears the greater culpability for The Fall seeing that Adam received the edict from Elohim to NOT compromise with evil DIRECTLY from the mouth of God. Eve, on the other hand, received the edict by hearsay from her husband; therefore, death, the curse, the chasm, is passed from the seed of the man.

Jesus entered Time through the womb of the woman (Galatians 4:4) in order to circumvent the sin-nature, the corruption, that passes from our first father, Adam (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:22). Jesus was born in the flesh fully man and fully God (Philippians 2:8) and this Plan, the Gospel, finds its origin "before the beginning of Time" (2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Peter 1:20).

Jesus was born into the World, born to a "woman," born under The Law (Galatians 4:4) and Jesus lived a perfect sinless life and fulfilled The Law for us (Matthew 5:17-20) as Jesus was the only One capable of fulfilling the law and meeting the righteous standards of perfection required by God the Father (2 Corinthians 5:21); otherwise, Jesus could not have died as the propitiation/sin-bearer for the sins of mankind (John 3:16).

If Jesus was not born of a virgin, He could not be God because He would be tainted with a sin-nature and Jesus would not have been able to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law and we would all be dead in our sin and headed to a hopeless death in Hell subsequent to Judgment (Romans 5:8).





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  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  

    Where did the Y Chromosome come from?!?!?!



    PlaffelvohfenDee
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  

    BECAUSE GOD IN HIS INFINITE WISDOM ........



    AlofRIJesusisGod777888SandBlastcat
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    Are there really adults out there believing in all this stuff? That is not even a good fantasy story; good ones have far fewer plot holes. This is just the work of a mediocre art school freshman. I have made far better universes with far better backstories just daydreaming before falling asleep than that!

    Virgins giving birth? Nature being sinful? A guy eating an apple causing corruption in all the humanity? I think you guys are losing it.
    AlofRIBlastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    Hi Rickey.  I am new to these forums.  Happy Killjoy, (aka Killbot), informs me that you are his Nemesis.  LOL!  

    I am curious about this version of the NKJ Bible you are quoting from - Ch. 3 Verse 15.  What year was it published?  Maybe compare it with much earlier versions, dating back to late 1500s?  Anyone with whom I've spoken, concerning the meaning of this verse has always been taught that which I have, namely, that it is the woman who will crush the serpent's head and her heel which he will lie in wait for. Taken from the Latin Vulgate, (I studied Latin), it directly translates to read thus:-



    I can understand the mis-translation, though, given that the Latin word "eius" is written the same way in Latin for either "his" or "her".  As in French and German, gender is determined by the ending of the verb of which it is the subject.  I notice too that many translations say the serpent will be bruised by the heel of man.  This is not the correct translation, nor is it the intended meaning.  The word "heel" in this context in the original Latin, denotes the lowly nature of Satan's power to attack, by virtue of the fact he is metaphorically crawling on his belly and cannot make a full-on assault.  As well it means he is cowardly, waiting for his targets to turn their backs, attacking them in a moment of weakness.  Inclusive in this context is that it denotes the "end", i.e., the end of the lifetime of those who will crush the serpent's head, meaning Satan lies in waiting relentlessly for his quarry and never gives up, right up until the time of his target's death

    On the question of why Mary had to be a virgin and why Joseph did not father Jesus - She and Joseph would have had to have been spotless of sin and although Mary may have remained so, there could be no guarantees that Joseph would be.  Had he fathered Jesus, Original Sin would have tainted their off-spring, so neither could "beget" Christ's humanity of themselves.  It had to be given him via God, which it was.  The obvious factor is that no human could conceive the Son of God, in any event, which is more or less what you have said.  


    Dee
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    Nothing funnier than observing two so called grown men arguing about virgin births .......
    AlofRIBlastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar - I agree, it sounds all so very fantasamagorical and nothing but a truck load of cods whallop, but once we accept the science that a fourth dimension exists, already proven by CERN scientists in Switzerland, then we have to acknowledge that anything is possible in that 4th dimension and beyond it, as the CERN scientists have discovered.  

    I don't know if you have noticed certain things about the CERN establishment - it's front foyer statue, it's public celebrations and ceremonies, demonstrating a connection with the occult, with appearances of the Satanic God, Baphomet, among its range of characters and mystics with a degree of dark "stuff".  Much of CERN's work is top secret.  They admit some of it does involve research into other dimensions, with talk of "Portals" and all of that kind of ethereal out-of-this-world language.  CERN admits to "communicating" with the "other side", to obtain information.  We are talking about a taxpayer-funded Institution here !!!  The words demon, dementia and dimension all come from the same etymological linguistic root.  

    Search some of the modern-day Magicians on YouTube and observe some of their powers, disguised as "tricks".  Can we really kid ourselves we're seeing just good old-fashioned "sleight of hand"?   I don't think so.  So which side are we going to choose?  Become a Luciferian or join the army on the good side, because it is a perpetual war between good and evil, between Satan and God.  Many reject the miracles of Christ and God, but yet we readily accept those of Satan and, in fact, delight in and marvel at them, as you will see in the videos linked to below.  Why so readily delight in one and reject the other?  Why?

    Think about that for a second and the dimensional forces at work designed to draw exactly that reaction from us.  Odd, don't you think?  Satan, according to Biblical texts, vowed to God that he would destroy God's people.  We are God's people, His Kingdom on earth according to Biblical texts, the very Kingdom which Satan has vowed to destroy.  This war for hearts, minds and souls is perpetual.  Satan is the Prince of Deception, the Prince of Darkness.  He uses deception, misinformation, disinformation, lies and fakery to inculcate us.  God uses only truth and truth alone. 

    Studying those who appear to have gone over to the dark side, many magicians, pop groups, Hollywood stars, those from Satanic cults, paedophile networks, NXIVM and similar cults, some convicted of human trafficking and child-sex trafficking, etc., (stories of child sacrifices abound), reveals that they exhibit a penchant for the colours red, (blood) and black (Satanic), manifested in their attire, hair dyes, lipsticks, fingernail polish, weird black eye make-up and hair styles, dark beards, also in their jewellery, engraved with ritual symbolism of the dark arts, reflecting specific symbolic shapes, inverted triangles, inverted crosses, prisms, the eye of Horus, various signs and symbols of Satanic occultism, their tattoos likewise symbolising Satanic dark arts. 

    Here are some magician videos which should make us all stop and pause.  Note how the the female panelist is targeted by the girl magician.  One Satanist always recognises another.  Note the panelist's red dress and black nail polish and in another show on a different day, she is targeted yet again by the same girl magician.  Just look at what the panelist is wearing that day.  Then note on the next show involving the same girl magician how the panelist, perhaps uncomfortable with being targeted by the girl magician, this time is wearing all white and the girl magician pays no attention to her. That speaks to us.  Could be co-incidental.  We will never know for sure.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyOaDh5USI  +  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIV1m4kEItE + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WyoenjZAZw + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA7BxSrhjw4 
    .
    Happy_Killbot
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    It's clear you've made your choice Killjoy, but interesting how you reject anything which might challenge your choice, don't you think?  Why did you post before watching  the videos?  Not a single one.  How do I know that?  By the timestamp on your post and my post with the video links.  Too afraid to confront the truth of my words?  The truth destroys Satan.  It is God's greatest weapon against Satan and our most treasured gift from God.
    RickeyDtroll_locator
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    Satan invented Jesus Change my mind.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    LOL!  I never saw Satan sacrifice anything, but for his own personal gain.  What did Christ gain on the Cross for Himself, personally?
    RickeyD
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix The souls of all Christians, who worship Jesus as a false idol.

    Think about it:

    "Thous shalt have no other gods before me"

    If you treat Jesus as a god, you violate this commandment, and will be burned in hell for all eternity... It's the perfect plan really.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    I am not sure if you are serious with your post... I have worked at CERN, and nothing of the kind was happening there. I also do not know what you mean by the "fourth dimension"; the fourth dimension in physics is just time, and not "anything is possible" there.

    I think you have read too much into some conspiracy theory website or something. CERN is a popular target of conspiracy theorists, because of how complicated everything they do there is - but they actually do not do any secret research; everything they do is open to the public, and all data is released soon after it is obtained for anyone to use.

    As for magician videos, I think @Dee used to perform magician tricks? He/she can elaborate on that here; there is nothing actually magical about it, it is all just sleight of hand.
    Happy_KillbotBlastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar - LOL!  What was your job at CERN?  You could not have been involved in any of the science, then.  Besides, we don't need to work there to see their public display of that which I describe.  Hark back to the opening of the tunnel ceremony, fully televised on national TV.

    You reveal yourself with your own denials, by calling the most extraordinary acts as "sleight of hand".  No-one in their right mind can even believe that claim for a single second.  I see you - straight through you.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    I was a regular researcher, so I did not have access to all the information - but I have gotten to see how the internal structure of the organisation works. It is a semi-open model, in which individual research groups get the proprietary data access, and the results of processing that data are usually made public. There is nothing there to be suspicious about. It is not an intelligence agency or a secretive dissident organisation; it is a regular collaboration of physicists.

    Magicians themselves regularly take part in shows where they explain how they do their tricks by getting people to focus on something different. If you seriously think that there is actual "magic" involved, then you probably should stop watching so many Disney movies with genies.
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot ;  You wrote:
    @Grafix 
    The souls of all Christians, who worship Jesus as a false idol.
    Think about it:
    "Thous shalt have no other gods before me"
    If you treat Jesus as a god, you violate this commandment, and will be burned in hell for all eternity... It's the perfect plan really.
    I don't see Satan making any sacrifices for his following, only dumping a heap of lies and deception upon their sorry ignorant heads.  To sacrifice your life for those whom you love is the ultimate gift of unconditional  love.  Why can't you see that?  It is hardly a deception, particularly when there were no guarantees it would be appreciated or win a single soul.  It is open, unconditional 100% love.  Would you do the same for your child's happiness?

    This Commandment was your primary target in one of your own topics, headed up with the claim that Christianity was not aligned with U.S. values.  Satan hates this religious value, because it requires a monotheistic system of worship as opposed to a pagan polytheistic system of religion and Satan's greatest desire is to have power.  That requires many worshippers.  He is jealous of God.  It is the very crux of the reason why he became a fallen angel, for he attempted to compete with God, attempted to be God, so God cast him out of Heaven and down to earth into eternal damnation.  Similarly, the Anti-Christ will do likewise, will claim to be God.  He will be the earthly embodiment of Satan, as Christ was the earthly embodiment of God.  Satan copies everything that God does, but for all of the wrong reasons.  You people deal in truly dangerous stuff and don't even realise that you are. 

    Never heard of the Blessed Trinity, sunshine?  I guess you are going to now tell me you are an expert on it too.  Yeah right.  Go home and re-educate yourself and pray to God to be released from the clutches of the Prince of Deception and Darkness.  If you don't, you do so at your own peril, but the choice is yours.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix If the Devil was pretending to be Jesus, then it has all the followers it could have ever wanted. It fits with it's character, the "prince of lies" and what not.

    How do you know that who we think is Jesus, wasn't actually the Devil? What test can we do to verify that this isn't true?

    The fate of your immortal soul lies on the table, if you are wrong then you will be tortured for all eternity.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot -  You wrote:
    How do you know that who we think is Jesus, wasn't actually the Devil? What test can we do to verify that this isn't true?
    The fact that you need to ask that proves every claim of yours to have read all of the Holy Books is a lie.  Well done.  The answer is in them.
    .
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix That's a serious question.

    How do you know that the devil didn't invent Jesus? Can you prove it didn't happen?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar - You said:
    @Grafix

    I was a regular researcher, so I did not have access to all the information - but I have gotten to see how the internal structure of the organisation works. It is a semi-open model, in which individual research groups get the proprietary data access, and the results of processing that data are usually made public. There is nothing there to be suspicious about. It is not an intelligence agency or a secretive dissident organisation; it is a regular collaboration of physicists.

    Magicians themselves regularly take part in shows where they explain how they do their tricks by getting people to focus on something different. If you seriously think that there is actual "magic" involved, then you probably should stop watching so many Disney movies with genies.
    Yes it is semi-open, which is what I said.  Many people of greater authority than yourself from CERN admit to its exploration of the 4th dimension, speak of opening Portals and the disappearance of one of their chief scientists through a Portal, later found dead at CERN.  I read this years ago and would have to now search for the information.  Am happy to do so again and link to it, if you want to argue the point.  As I said, CERN's public displays are linked to the occult and the Satanic God, Baphomet, just as their statue in the foyer demonstrates a high regard and acknowledgement of the mystic arts.  We don't need to work there to see that.  I can only assume you are either very unobservant, covering up for them or never worked there.  Either way, you provide no proof of your claims, whereby the empirical evidence supports my statements.  It is out there in the public square and undeniable.

    Yes Magicians do sometimes explain how they do something and several admit to engaging black arts/black magic to perform their acts and state they do not use sleight of hand.  Shin is one of them.  Just watch the magician videos and quit with the denialist crap.  The evidence is in them and sticks out like dogs' balls.  To deny it simply destroys your own credibility - a fool's errand.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - You wrote:
    @Grafix - That's a serious question.  How do you know that the devil didn't invent Jesus? Can you prove it didn't happen?
    How do you know he did?  Why go for the negative?  Can you prove that he did?  It is a truly dippy daft question, given the volume of work which proves the historicity and historical accuracy of the Bible.  With every new archaeological discovery, we just see more and more evidence which supports the Biblical historical account.  Although these discoveries do not support anything spiritual about Christ, what they do prove is the factual existence of the people, places, events and historical content. 

    If we then look at these proofs, we can see such things as Archaeologists not disputing and all agreeing that the walls of Jericho did come tumbling down, exactly as described in the Bible.  That then leaves a wide-open question, namely, there were no armies at that time with the military arsenal to have a hope in Hell of demolishing these impregnable walls.  There were two walls, an inner and an outer wall.  Both came tumbling down at the same time and the archaeological evidence proves that the city was demolished by fire after they tumbled down, which is exactly what the Biblical account says.

    So, the best explanation is an earthquake and is the most plausible for the reason that Jericho sat on a tectonic plate fault, the same as that of the Rift Valley in North Eastern Africa - a continuation of the same fault line.  The next question is, its timing - exactly when Joshua needed it to occur to the day, the hour the minute, after a siege of seven days.  Tell me that is not a miracle by the hand of God and be sure your answer is a plausible and rational argument supported by proof, otherwise it can be ridiculed.  This is how archaeology is showing us the truths of the Biblical texts in so many ways, this just one of hundreds of examples.
    .
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix Isn't trying to prove that Jesus wasn't the devil, CERN isn't a conspiracy, magicians aren't real, and higher dimensions don't exist also trying to prove a negative?

    The thing is, you have exactly the same evidence to suggest that the devil pretended to be Jesus as you have that Jesus was who he said he was.

    The examples you provided have no bearing on these possibilities because they are both old testament and have nothing to do with Jesus, but of course a good bible-reading Christian like yourself already knows that.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    Yes agreed to all with the exception of how you have worded the first example.  Firstly, there is no dispute among historians, that Jesus did exist.  Secondly, Jesus said he was the Son of God and described His name as  "I Am", which means God or Yahweh in Hebrew.  You are trying to prove the negative of that, in attempting to argue that Jesus is not who He said He was.  How can you?  You can't.  All of the evidence is against you.  In the same way you are trying to prove none of the other examples ever happened or exist either, when we know that, in fact, they do, because the empirical evidence proves they do - is out their for all to see or is otherwise on the record of testimony. Why try and prove so many negatives against so many positives?  It is illogical.  Why would anyone even seek  to or WISH  to?  That's the critical question you need to ask yourself - why are you doing this?  What are the influences which compel you to do so, in the face of all odds?  There is only one answer to that, which is as obvious as the sun in the sky.

    I disagree.  There is no evidence that Christ ever pretended to be anyone other than who He said He was, let alone pretended to be Satan.  There is evidence that he told Satan to bugger off more than once, "Get thee behind me Satan".  As the Biblical texts have been proven to be 100% accurate, wherever there is archaeological evidence pertaining to them, it hardly begs us to suddenly believe that every thing else should be discarded as fiction, particularly when we have evidence to support much of it in general history.  For example, Pilot's missive to Rome about the consternation that Christ's empty tomb created is on the Roman record, as is Pilot's missive to Rome describing the trial of Christ and how Pilot washed his hands of it, he believing, in his own statements that Christ was innocent.  His own words stand in evidence that he was afraid of defying the mood of the multitude who wanted Christ crucified, so he allowed the people to decide. 

    When Mary Magdelene discovered the open and empty tomb, Christ appeared to her near it, in front of two Roman soldiers.  After His resurrection, Christ also appeared to about 500 people as well in public.  These are eye-witness records.  We also have eye witness records of His ascension into Heaven by the accounts of the Apostles.   Don't you think it is extraordinary that the record shows, as the historians Josephus and Tacitus both record and Pilate as well, that the Jewish High Priests bribed the soldiers to tell authorities that they had seen the Apostles come and remove Christ's body from the tomb and took it away to hide it, yet in spite of accepting the bribes from the Jewish High Priests, the Roman soldiers with all of the power of the Roman army behind them, were too afraid to lie about it and related what they actually saw?  They were afraid of Christ's obvious Supernatural power, which they now could no longer deny. 

    Don't you think it is really strange that the corpse of the most famous figure in history is seen removed from the cross, placed in a tomb guarded by Roman Centurions with a great whacking circular stone, taller than a man, about one foot thick, rolled along an especially constructed channel to seal the tomb, as was the custom, can just walk straight out of this tomb and start talking to people? The soldiers attested to the fact that they did not roll back the mighty stone, which would take three men to do so.  How did Christ a single man, do it?  That stone and the tomb are Christian relics today, which tourists flock to see.

     He showed his wounds from the crucifixion to all of these 500 people and his Apostles, recorded in the Gospels.  Don't you think it's strange that the tomb of the most famous figure in history remains empty with not a single trace of a skeleton, yet the many saw his body laid to rest there?
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix I'm not asking if Jesus pretended to be anyone else, I am asking if Jesus was in reality, the Devil.

    After all, Jesus does lots of things that might have been considered "dark magic"

    Raising the dead (necromancy)
    water to wine (alchemy)
    Working on the sabbath (violation of ten commandments)
    and of course, nullifying levitical law.

    These are all examples of something that Satan should be doing. 

    If it is true, then everything recorded in the gospel and entire new testament is based on the heresy of a false prophet, and all who follow him will be damned to hell.

    Are you willing to take the chance?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    As I said in my opening reply, the answers to your questions are in the bible.  Cherry picking to construct an alternative story which opposes the record is merely engaging in defying the evidence.  It is against you.  Anyone can cherry pick, ignoring the bits they don't like, to paint a fake picture.  That's what you are doing.  The truth can only be seen if we accept ALL of the record and not just the parts we can use for dishonest and devious purposes.  Again, I say, either read it all in context accepting the historical evidence with an open mind.

    You have a mind that is closed, not just completely shut, but refusing to function as logic demands, refusing to accept facts, refusing to think for yourself, refusing to reason, accepting deceptions as a means to an end.  That is not how the truth is discovered and exposed.  That is how a brain is bent and the truth is distorted.  I say again, either choose to study the texts with an open mind or refuse to at your own peril.  That's the choice. 
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix Except there is a problem with that- If the devil was Jesus, then the bible is made out of the Devil's lies.

    What test can we do to determine if it is true or not, and if such a test can not be made, why should anyone believe any of it?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -  
    My reply is unchanged as before.  The answers are all in the Bible.  
    RickeyD
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix If you were the Devil, wouldn't you want the bible to be just how it is, so that it is the most believable thus getting you the most souls to devour?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    If you were God and had far greater powers than Satan, wouldn't you not only want the same thing, but use a far better and flawlessly credible way of doing so, which could never be disproved, by using the truth, as opposed to deception, which can 99 times out of 100 be exposed for what it is.  Risky business.

    Do you think the magicians in the videos are performing works of God or works of the devil?
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix If I was god, I wouldn't allow the devil to exist in the first place.

    Clearly, either god doesn't care, is equally powerful as the devil, or doesn't exist.

    Do you have any evidence besides the bible to show that Jesus isn't the devil in disguise?

    P.S. the magic in the videos is just slight of hand, to suggest it is god or devil's work is a false dichotomy, in reality it is the work of man and nothing else.
    Dee
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    What "portals"? Are you kidding me? The only thing even remotely related to it I can think of is the claim of some theoretical physicists that creating a small black hole can create a wormhole connected to a white hole in a parallel Universe, which is not impossible, although no direct evidence of anything like that has ever been obtained.

    Okay, explain to me how magic works. Can I cast lightning on other people, for example?

    I think you have read too many fantasy books, to be honest.
    DeeBlastcat
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    **** What did Christ gain on the Cross for Himself, personally?

    Eternal life according to christians , did you forget that part?
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix


    **** Here are some magician videos which should make us all stop and pause.  Note how in the the female panelist is targeted by the girl magician.  One Satanist always recognises another.  Note the panelist's red dress and black nail polish and in another show on a different day, she is targeted yet again by the same girl magician.  Just look at what the panelist is wearing that day.  It speaks.  Could be co-incidental.  We will never know for sure.


    This clearly  demonstrates anything people like you do not comprehend is indistinguishable from actual magic , @MayCaesar and @Happy_Killbot are correct , Shim Lin is a fabulous magician who uses brilliant sleight of hand , choreography and a system well know to magicians called the Black Art principle , I know because I used to work as a magician /mentalist.

    Shim Lin actually lectures and demonstrates his techniques and approach to the art to fellow magicians , I don’t expect you to believe this as your gullibility is on a different level 
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    ***** You reveal yourself with your own denials, by calling the most extraordinary acts as "sleight of hand".  No-one in their right mind can even believe that claim for a single second.  I see you - straight through you.


    ***** No-one in their right mind can even believe that claim for a single second.  

    Actually the total opposite is true , only the  religiously indoctrinated or insane nuts could believe otherwise 


    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    **** Many people of greater authority than yourself from CERN admit to its exploration of the 4th dimension, speak of opening Portals and the disappearance of one of their chief scientists through a Portal, later found dead at CERN.  I read this years ago and would have to now search for the information.  Am happy to do so again and link to it, if you want to argue the point. 

    Who are these people name them? Which scientist “disappeared”? 

     **** Either way, you provide no proof of your claims, whereby the empirical evidence supports my statements.  It is out there in the public square and undeniable.

    Produce it maybe instead of shooting your mouth off 

    ****Yes Magicians do sometimes explain how they do something and several admit to engaging black arts/black magic to perform their acts and state they do not use sleight of hand.

    Name the ones who claim this?

      ****Shin is one of them. 

    He demonstrates his techniques to fellow magicians 

     ****Just watch the magician videos and quit with the denialist crap.  The evidence is in them and sticks out like dogs' balls.  To deny it simply destroys your own credibility - a fool's errand.

    Go’s to show what religion does to someone’s mind you’re totally lost 
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - You wrote:
    If I was god, I wouldn't allow the devil to exist in the first place.
    Everywhere else in these forums you condemn God for being autocratic and oppressive, now you are espousing that if you were God the first thing you would be is autocratic, dictatorial and oppressive.  LOL!  Deceit can never win over truth and you just revealed your deceit, once again.  When will you learn this?  This is how I know you have either not read the Bible OR simply don't understand it.  You appear to be being coached through ill-gotten means to turn its truths on their head against God as a device to deceive others and turn them from God - the work of the devil himself. 

    The Bible tells us that God gave everyone free will, including his angels. There's your answer.  I have already told you, you will find the answers in the Bible.  It is right there in the first Book of Genesis. That tells us a great deal about God, that He is not an oppressor, is not a dictator, is not autocratic, but rather that He is a God of love, who only asks that we voluntarily choose  His love and  to love one another, before we can qualify to live in His planned Kingdom on earth.  If we cannot learn to love Him and one another, unconditionally,  then we will perish.  We have the free will to choose either everlasting life on God's earth after Judgement or to perish forever.  That's no biggie.  So we get to choose.

    Think of it this way. God allows Lucifer his battle, as he allows all of us our inner spiritual battle to choose between right from wrong - free will.  Do you think you could find happiness married to a woman whom you forced to marry you under threat?  Wouldn't you be forever suspicious of her fidelity, never trusting her, knowing she did not love you OR would you be truly happy basking in the love of a woman whom you knew came to you as your wife voluntarily,  BECAUSE she loved you?  That way you are both happy.  The other way you are both unhappy.  And so it is with God.  Lucifer chose not to love Him, instead to oppose Him.
    Clearly, either god doesn't care, is equally powerful as the devil, or doesn't exist.
    You seem to accept that Satan is real.  How can you accept he is real but God is not?  It makes no sense.  You also seem to believe that Satan is more powerful then God.  There is nothing anywhere which suggests this at all.  Believing in that for which there is zero evidence, while laughing at those who trust in God for which there is a great deal of evidence is simply illogical.  Your whole narrative is contradictory.  Christ showed us how, when he gave His love to us freely and unconditionally  on His cross, that this is how our love for Him and our fellow man must also be.  It must be volunteered, given freely and unconditionally,.  When we can arrive at this level of perfection, with God's help, the rewards are great indeed, but yet, so too is the paradox of that in and of itself.  We must learn not to love God for reward, for then we shall not be rewarded at all and will fail.  Unless we learn to love God simply because we can and simply because we want  to, it just doesn't work.  The absolute logic of this is apparent only to those who understand.  You refuse to try to understand it.
    Do you have any evidence besides the bible to show that Jesus isn't the devil in disguise?
    Plenty, by just living life the way the Bible suggests we should.  Once our eyes are opened, the evidence is everywhere, particularly evidence of Satan's jealousy of God.  Satan doesn't want God to succeed in building this beautiful Kingdom on earth of beautiful and loving people, so he is hell bent, as the pun goes, on destroying us and it all, so that God cannot have the very thing which God has already designed for us all.  The only requirement is for us to step up to the plate to meet the standards as laid down to qualify.  Common sense and logic dictate that, as we have already proven it to ourselves, that whilst ever we selfishly put ourselves above all else and all others - self-love - we cannot live in a Kingdom without strife, cannot have the Kingdom God is planning for us on earth, because it is that self-love which causes the strife in the first place.  These lessons are in the Bible.  Read it for your own sake with one goal in mind - to strive to fully understand it.  If you read it to ridicule it, you will remain forever blind.  The answers are all in this Book, His Book of great wisdom.
    P.S. the magic in the videos is just slight of hand, to suggest it is god or devil's work is a false dichotomy, in reality it is the work of man and nothing else.
    Anyone with the lowest order of intelligence can plainly see this is clearly not the case, besides Shin the Magician exhorts us to pay attention, that if we followed his magic he does not use sleight of hand and instead uses black arts/black magic.  He is emphatic about this. Black arts, dark arts, black magic all describe supernatural powers from Satan.
    .
    Plaffelvohfen
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix If god gave people free will, then it can not know what people will do, in which case it is not omniscient. If god is omnipotent, then people can not have free will.

    Did you know the bible doesn't say that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven? The story of Satan's decent is NOT in the bible. (if the devil wrote it, it would be this way, now wouldn't it?)

    Satan is no more real than Jesus, if anything it is a metaphysical interpretation of evil, the same way laws are a metaphysical construct of politics, laws only exist because we say they do, the same way evil only exists because we say it does.
    Plenty, by just living life the way the Bible suggests we should.  Once our eyes are opened, the evidence is everywhere, particularly evidence of Satan's jealousy of God
    You close your eyes to see. Where is the evidence? If you can prove it to yourself, can you prove it to a Muslim? Won't they tell you that Muhammad is the one true prophet, not Jesus? How do you know they are not right?

    What you don't seem to have acknowledged is that I have read the bible cover to cover, and that is why I am an atheist. The book is disgusting, terribly written, literally false, morally corrupt, philosophically weak, and most importantly, completely ambiguous and open to interpretation.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @Grafix

    ***** Anyone with the lowest order of intelligence can plainly see this is clearly not the case,

    That totally eliminates you so

    ****besides Shin the Magician exhorts us to pay attention, that if we followed his magic he does not use sleight of hand and instead uses black arts/black magic. 

    Don’t be so ridiculous Shin as won card magician of the year as well as close up magician of the year , card and coin tricks are not “black magic “ you clot 

     ****He is emphatic about this. Black arts, dark arts, black magic all describe supernatural powers from Satan.

    Black Art is an ancient principle used by magicians and has nothing to do with “black magic “ your ignorance on most things is truly staggering 
    .
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - You wrote:
     If god gave people free will, then it can not know what people will do, in which case it is not omniscient. If god is omnipotent, then people can not have free will.
    Whaaa???  Well clearly we do have free will.  LOL!  Compare your choices and mine, each of us at the opposite end of the spectrum, demonstrating absolute free will.  Why must God's providing us with free will diminish his omnipotence in any way?  You in one breath decry absolute autocratic dominion, but then in the next demand it.  Your narrative is so contradictory.  God Himself has chosen to give us free will of His own free will.  He still has the power to take it away at any time that he so chooses.  He still has the power to influence that free will which He gave us.  If we strive to know and understand Him, His influence is very great indeed, through the power of His own Spirit, that of the Holy Spirit.  If we choose to reject Him, yet still His power is very great, through the influence of Satan.  He controls it all, without controlling us, leaving the choices up to us.  This is the great paradox, which you just don't understand.  Satan is there to test us, to test our qualifications to qualify to be numbered among the faithful who will "inherit the earth", who will "inherit God's Kingdom on earth".  If we don't pass the test, we die forever and inherit zilch.
    Did you know the bible doesn't say that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven? The story of Satan's decent is NOT in the bible. (if the devil wrote it, it would be this way, now wouldn't it?)  
    The story of Satan's descent is in the Bible, in the very first Chapters of Genesis, straight after Satan's deception against Eve and much later, as follows ....

    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Luke 10:18
    And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.  (From whence we get the phrase Lucifer the Light-Bringer)
    Mark 3:23
    And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

    Then we see Satan's final damnation in Genesis.  He the fallen angel disguised himself as a serpent, for in God's Paradise of Eden men did not need to hunt for or gather food, God supplied all and both animals and man lived in harmony, able to communicate with one another.  Satan destroyed all of that, so God condemned him to remain metaphorically in the form of a serpent, so to speak, as in ...

    Genesis 3 : 13 - 15

    13  And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

    14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

    In other words, you cannot be condemned any lower, slithering in the dirt on your belly, eating dirt and be shown to have so little power, capable only of striking your targets' heels and then only as they turn their backs on your presence.  It is the ultimate put down in beautiful metaphor.  I doubt Satan would have expressed any of this in this manner were he the author of the Bible, as you suggest he is. Complete lunacy to think it.

    You wrote:  "Satan is no more real than Jesus, if anything it is a metaphysical interpretation of evil".

    So now you acknowledge evil but not Satan.  Where do you suppose you got your moral sense of evil and good and of right from wrong from?  From the influence of the Judeo-Christian ethos, passed down by your parents, their parents and the societal conditioning all around us, in which it is embedded, although there are those like yourself, who have dedicated their lives to destroying it - Agents of Satan.

    Well, you can walk around believing cold hard, lifeless, inanimate and stoney objects in a fabled explosion of rocks and gases gave you life, gave you a breathing heart, the power to think, the power to feel sentiment, sorrow, love and anger, the power to procreate.  By all means continue to kneel at the altar of gases and rocks, even believe that Jesus was not real, but there is no historian on the planet who denies Jesus existed and as they cannot and do not, it sounds much more plausible to me than a bunch of rocks having the skills to invent all the attributes I just listed.  It must be fun being the only clown on the face of the earth.
    .
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix If god can do everything (omnipotence) than that means it can cause any and all of your thoughts and actions to occur. If people have free will, then there is something god can not do, (change peoples' thoughts and actions) thus it is not omnipotent.

    How would these scriptures change if you assume that Jesus was Satan?

    • "the dragon" is god, thrown out of heaven after Satan succeeds in the end of days
    • Jesus was on earth, thus it stands to reason that Satan if on earth could have been Jesus.
    • Satan (presumably) has free will as well, thus Satan can choose to leave on it's own should it choose to.
    • The serpent is not Satan, and this doesn't explain how it came out of heaven.

    All of these things could be considered evidence to support the notion that Jesus was actually Satan, and they do not prove that it was not.

    You should now know that the story you thought was in the bible about Satan being cast out of heaven is not detailed in the bible, it is from the Pagan beliefs that Judaism arose from, which were poly theistic and deliberately excluded from the bible during the council of Nicaea.

    You still can't prove that Jesus was not the devil or that he was not, therefore if you consider one to be valid the other is also valid, and you can not determine which if either is true.

    If you don't know which is true, then how can you be sure you are picking the right one? What if you are wrong? You will burn in hell for all eternity if the devil tricked you by pretending to be the son of god... Do you want to take the risk?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - Sigh! I have already addressed that.  The fact that God chooses not to take away our free will does not mean he cannot.  Likewise, the fact that God gives us the freedom to choose between Him and Satan also does not mean he cannot influence that free will, if or whenever he may choose to.  I even demonstrate the paradox of how he actually does influence our free will via both His own Holy Spirit and the spirit of Satan.  Please read my post again and try to understand what is written.  It is clear you have a comprehension issue, perhaps the reason you cannot understand the message of the Biblical texts.  It is like talking to a ventriloquist's dummy.

    The rest of your post defies the logic of the Bible.  Firstly, we obtain our knowledge of both God and Satan from that very Book, yet in it, it speaks of Satan at every turn in the most damning fashion.  End of story.

    No the story of Satan being cast out of Heaven is from Christ's own lips as already quoted to you.  I think that is proof that Jesus was not Satan.  We also have Jesus in the wilderness for forty days and forty nights, telling us of that and how Satan pestered Jesus, attempting to tempt Him to do evil and Jesus prevailed over Satan in that 40 day battle, telling Satan to "get thee behind me".  Eventually Satan lost and gave up.  I doubt, as every mention of Satan in the Biblical texts is so damning of Satan, just as the quotes I gave in my previous post are, that Satan is God or is Jesus.  They prove the opposite.  You need to go to the nearest corner store and buy some logic, as it seems yours is on vacation without you or you are on vacation and left it at home.

    I have already illustrated how we can be sure which side to choose to be on, either the side of evil, Satan's side who engages in deception or God's side, who engages in openness, truths and trusted love for all to see.

    Maybe you should read the Book of Enoch.  It's available online.  Enoch gives us a very clear picture of how Satan operates.  Maybe then you will understand, given you demonstrate a clear understanding of Satan's style, while a complete inability to understand God's.  You appear to have a mental roadblock without a vestige of capacity to understand God at all.  As I said earlier, God is using Satan as the test, testing us for fidelity, compassion, loyalty, truthfulness, wisdom, discernment and most of all unconditional love.  If we fail the test we do not "inherit the earth",  cannot "inherit God's Kingdom on earth", which is God's ultimate design for us and is precisely that which Satan seeks to deny us.  Instead we will die inheriting zilch, if we cleave to Satan's temptations, all of which Satan dresses up as very attractive and greatly self-gratifying, but when we look at them closely, they are temporal and shallow, only of this life and so die with us.  Curtains.  Done.  Dust to dust, ashes to ashes and forever condemned to be so, by the very omnipotence of God, the very same omnipotence you shun.  Your logic 101 is laughable.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Grafix ;

    If Satan was Jesus, he would be lying about that now wouldn't he?

    You still can't prove that Jesus was not the devil or that he was not, therefore if you consider one to be valid the other is also valid, and you can not determine which if either is true.

    If you don't know which is true, then how can you be sure you are picking the right one? What if you are wrong? You will burn in hell for all eternity if the devil tricked you by pretending to be the son of god... Do you want to take the risk?

    If you choose Jesus, you may be on the side of evil.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - Satan is lying about what?  About vilifying himself in the Bible, which you pretend he wrote himself?  Portraying himself as an evil serpent engaging in deception to cause God's children to be banished from God's Paradise?  Portraying himself as destined forever to slither in the dirt on his belly, eat dirt and only have the power of influence by attacking the heels of his targets, as they turn their backs on him, when they have taken their eye off him, in their weakest moment?  He's not very smart then, is he?
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - The great paradox of your own imagined dichotomy is that the very construction you seek to contrive requires deception in and of itself, for your fairy tale to even begin.  LOL!  Who would seek to place their faith in deception?  Without the necessity of deception, your fabled dichotomy can't work.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix Is it not the work of the Satan in accordance with the Christian mythology to spread deception and lies?

    It is possible that this is the Devil's greatest deception of all: "I am Jesus Christ, you must accept me as your lord and savior"

    You can not prove it isn't true same as you can not prove that Jesus existed at all, how confident are you that you are not in error to say that Jesus is not the Devil?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Happy_Killbot - Well historians do not contest that Jesus existed.  The historical record does not either, so straight away you are on shaky ground.  No.  Worse than that.  On zero ground.  BOOM!

    Yes, it is possible the Biblical Text could have been the greatest deception of Satan, but logic, as I have already shown does not follow that conclusion by virtue of the very texts themselves.  As I have said, if someone were desirous of winning the hearts, minds and souls of the populace, through whose worship he sought to gain power, then the last thing he would do is this:
    "Satan is lying about what?  About vilifying himself in the Bible, which you pretend he wrote himself?  Portraying himself as an evil serpent engaging in deception to cause God's children to be banished from God's Paradise?  Portraying himself as destined forever to slither in the dirt on his belly, eat dirt and only have the power of influence by attacking the heels of his targets, as they turn their backs on him, when they have taken their eye off him, in their weakest moment?  He's not very smart then, is he?
    AND ...
    The great paradox of your own imagined dichotomy is that the very construction you seek to contrive requires deception in and of itself, for your fairy tale to even begin.  LOL!  Who would seek to place their faith in deception?  Without the necessity of deception, your fabled dichotomy can't work.
    You are just banging on and on and on like a drunken parrot, squawking the same line, but approaching it from different angles, but it is still the same tune, the same deception, the same broken record.

    Why can't you see that you even admit that deception by Satan would need to be involved for your fable to work?  That means the Christian Bible is absolutely spot on about Satan, then, doesn't it?  Of course it does.  It also is a vindication of the Christian Bible's description of Satan, by your very own fabled dichotomy.

    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix Actually, the existence of Jesus is hotly debated and many historians are not convinced that Jesus was real.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzjYmpwbHEA

    The thing is, if you realize that it is possible for Jesus to have been played by the Devil, then you must realize the consequences that come with that....

    Everyone who follows Jesus will burn in hell for all eternity.

    That is a possibility you can not deny, now can you?

    So back to an older question: How can we know that it isn't true if the bible itself is not reliable, having possibly been conceived in part by the works of Satan?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    Grafix said:
    @Happy_Killbot - The great paradox of your own imagined dichotomy is that the very construction you seek to contrive requires deception in and of itself, for your fairy tale to even begin.  LOL!  Who would seek to place their faith in deception?  Without the necessity of deception, your fabled dichotomy can't work.
    What a strange question... Obviously, the one placing faith in deception does not know that it is deception - they think they are placing faith in truth.

    Now, if some omniscient being (assuming you can verify that it actually is omniscient) walked up to you and said, "The Bible is a book of lies", then you would know that your faith is placed in deception, and probably stop placing it there. However, if the Bible is a book of lies and you believe it is not, then, indeed, you could be placing your faith in deception.

    Have you ever considered that, perhaps, all the religious constructs you have believed in all this time are hogwash? That they were made up by men or some other nefarious beings a long time ago in order to mislead and control the population? That seems much more likely to me, than it having been written by some supernatural being nobody has ever seen or interacted with in any explicit way.
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    "Hotly debated" ?  Yeh right.  Pull my chain.  For your unaccredited single YouTuber, I could point you to a thousand scholarly works which rebut it soundly. As already noted, we have on the record the three most authentic accounts referencing Christ's existence:

    Pilot's two missives to Rome, the first documenting the trial of Jesus and the second expressing the consternation surrounding the discovery of His empty tomb, in which Pilate reveals that his soldiers were bribed to fabricate a story, that the Apostles removed Christ's corpse from the tomb and hid it, but which the soldiers, despite accepting the bribes, were too afraid to lie about and, instead, gave an honest account of what they saw, more afraid of Christ's supernatural powers, now clearly obvious to them and undeniable, which they themselves had witnessed.  All on the Roman record - a bunch of Pagans back then.  It's pretty damning of your vacuous silly claims that Christ did not exist, don't you think? 

    Then we have both of the ancient historians, Tacitus and Josephus Flavius, likewise recording the existence of "the Christ, who claims to be God".  There you go.  Go and argue with them and all of the other historians.  This argument is not with me, .  It is with the whole world and you are the only clown in town.

    As for the rest of your post my reply is this:




    JesusisGod777888
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Grafix Here is the thing though, even if Jesus did exist, we still don't know if he was Satan in disguise or not, just playing the part very well.

    You have thus far avoided the question, If you can not be sure if the Devil was Jesus or not,, then that means you do not know what will happen when you die if you put your faith in him, and it is possible that belief in Jesus is the surest path to hell.

    If you do not know which is true, then why should you commit to either?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    Ummm ....Satan  vilifying himself in his own Biblical texts, which you contend could be the work of Satan, and that vilification of Satan appearing in persistent repetition, always extremely damning of him in every instance, is "playing the part very well"??  It is???  It would demonstrate the work of a lunatic gone stark, raving barking mad.

    I've confronted the question head on with quotes proving the above sentence.  What have you quoted to support your fabled dichotomy?  Zilch, nada, nuttin', zero.  Case closed.

    I know which is true by virtue of the two previous paragraphs.  Case closed again. 
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
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