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Does the Atheist stance align with the United States values?

Debate Information

I understand how some may view Religion in general, but aren't our individual values, an inner reflection of our inner stances?


Being Non Religious is voluntary.

Just as being Religious is voluntary.

Hence the question, do some and their non Religious stances align with U.S. Values?  






PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
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  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    **** Just as being Religious is voluntary.

    It’s not , tell me how many children pick their own religion? Bet you refuse to answer 

    ****Hence the question, do some and their non Religious stances align with U.S. Values?  

    What are “US values” you were asked this over 30 times in the past bet you refuse to answer as usual ? 

    PlaffelvohfenBlastcat
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    I do not know what "United States values" are, but, as an atheist, I feel very happy living in this amazing country (in a heavily religious state at that, with nearly 75% of the population identifying as Christians). So, I suppose, at the very least they are not incompatible with atheism.
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    This question mirrors the same problems which Killbot's identical question had, regarding Christianity.  I consider the question needs to define what it means by "U.S." when it is speaking of "values".  Is it addressing the values of the general populace and if so, which sector? ... because many of their values are in conflict with Western values, since we threw our borders open to non-Western cultures.  Or is it addressing the values of the Founding Fathers or the values expressed in the Founding documents framed by the Founding Fathers or the values upheld by our legislated law?  All of these can be described as "U.S." values, but due to errant lawmakers, there are conflicts between their values today.

    I can think of a number of values in various of the above-noted definitions where atheism is not aligned, but until the question is re-defined, it is too difficult to attempt to argue this, because while they are un-aligned in one sector, they are aligned in another, therefore the question needs to eliminate that contradiction, or conversely highlight that contradiction and include it in the discussion.

    Having said that, due to where my career path took me, I have no doubt that several politically motivated groups within America, (certain of which were not originally founded by Americans), are co-opting atheists, Socialists, fringe groups and Satanists to carry out an Agenda which is not in the interests of America and which can be described as seditious and subversive activity.  Whether these organised clandestine Agendas represent the general worldview of atheism would be difficult to establish, but atheists are attracted to them because of their anti-Christian Agenda.  Those individual atheists  most certainly do not personally  uphold the values expressed in the Founding documents.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • TKDB said:

    I understand how some may view Religion in general, but aren't our individual values, an inner reflection of our inner stances?


    Being Non Religious is voluntary.

    Just as being Religious is voluntary.

    Hence the question, do some and their non Religious stances align with U.S. Values?  







    There is no doctrine of atheism and, as such, no single 'atheist stance'. Thus, no  matter how 'US values' are defined, the question is incoherent.
    DeeHappy_KillbotGrafixPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42Zombieguy1987
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    The problem with this question is what is the "atheist stance"? Unlike with religions, there is no unifying body that all atheists follow and no agreed upon wet of rules and ideas, although in general free thinking and humanist values tend to be very much a foundation of a lot of atheist thinking, they are by no means guaranteed. Atheists are a diverse bunch, and that is mostly for the better.

    So to answer the question, yes and no. Some atheist definitely have a stance which aligns with the US values, and some do not.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    I think the bigger problem is defining what is meant by  "U.S." values in today's culture of American society, given there are now conflicting values within our society, since we threw our borders open to other cultures which do not reflect Western values.  The definition of the "stance" of atheism does have its problems too, because one atheist's "stance" can be very different from another's. However, as we all know what "atheism" itself represents, then I would suggest, subject to the intention of @TKDB, maybe the question be re-framed as follows:

    Does the definition of Atheism align with the values expressed in America's Founding Documents?

      

    OR ...


    Do the activities of many atheists align with the values expressed in America's Founding Documents?  


    OR ...


    Is their a groundswell of sentiment among Atheists generally, which does not align with the values expressed in America's Founding Documents?  


    OR ...


    Are Atheists attracted to groups with Agendas that are not aligned with the values expressed in the Founding Documents?




    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne - I disagree with your statement that ...
    There is no doctrine of atheism
    Although I agree with the rest of your sentence, this specific claim I can't accept.  The "doctrine" of Atheism is surely its very own definition, isn't it?  How else would one be identified as an Atheist, if there were no central "doctrine" by which to be identified?  The statement therefore makes no sense. Maybe you mean that the Atheistic doctrine is so broad that it is simply a great big tent which allows a plethora of different worldviews, even if conflicting, so long as the under-pinning central doctrine is accepted, namely that there is no evidence of the existence of any supernatural deities, and against that background Atheists can subsequently be justified in asserting that there are no supernatural or spiritual deities. 

    That central doctrine, by virtue of natural progression, thereby demands an acceptance of naturalism - that the observable physical world is all there is.

    I would contend that these are the two and only two central doctrines of Atheism.
    .
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • Grafix said:
    @SkepticalOne - I disagree with your statement that ...
    There is no doctrine of atheism
    Although I agree with the rest of your sentence, this specific claim I can't accept.  The "doctrine" of Atheism is surely its very own definition, isn't it?  How else would one be identified as an Atheist, if there were no central "doctrine" by which to be identified?  The statement therefore makes no sense. Maybe you mean that the Atheistic doctrine is so broad that it is simply a great big tent which allows a plethora of different worldviews, even if conflicting, so long as the under-pinning central doctrine is accepted, namely that there is no evidence of the existence of any supernatural deities, and against that background Atheists can subsequently be justified in asserting that there are no supernatural or spiritual deities. 

    That central doctrine, by virtue of natural progression, thereby demands an acceptance of naturalism - that the observable physical world is all there is.

    I would contend that these are the two and only two central doctrines of Atheism.
    .
    Doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

    Atheism doesn't have any beliefs, at least, not by default. The only thing necessary for one to be an atheist is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism has no doctrines.
    ZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar - There is evidence that you may be a secret Mod on this chat board and a dishonest one.  I have observed the removal of date stamps from my posts and from the posts of others, in order to alter the natural chronological sequence of comments as they actually occurred and to push favored posts up the chain.  I have also observed the manipulation of Debra Al Analytics in manufacturing inaccurate "data" - an algorithm, which can also be manually manipulated.  For example, I do not have a single spelling error in any of my posts on this page, and rarely ever do on any page, yet Al Debra says I have a spelling error rate which occasions the loss of 2 points, simply to justify its need to give @MayCaesar a tie in this debate.

    Further, I see Al Debra persistently favors @MayCaesar for content, above many other commenters, although they have posted twice as many posts and/or more substantial posts with good content, when you yourself  have not and rarely ever do.  Perfect example of that right here, now, on this page.  There is no reason for @MayCaesar to be figured in the Al Debra farce at this moment at all, with so many other posts which are clearly superior in content and number over yours, and I am not even suggesting any of my own. 

    Such petty fraud really does speak to the infantile mentality nd shallow vanity of leftie atheists, so insecure are they that they must resort to such trivial deceptions.  LOL!  

    As of this very minute this is what Al Debra claims:



    I have absolutely no deep, inner and unbalanced neediness  for the "approval" or Al Debra.  I am in fact, wary of the whole concept, for it mirrors the mentality of Red China's system of "credits", which I actually despise deeply, it being a manipulative control mechanism used against  the people.  I make this post in general, because if you are a secret Mod and do control these things, @MayCaesar, then I simply seek to expose the above manipulations, their dishonesty and the insidious hypocrisy and manipulative nature of whoever is responsible and thereby openly discredit them.


    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne - You wrote:
    Doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
    Atheism doesn't have any beliefs, at least, not by default. The only thing necessary for one to be an atheist is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism has no doctrines.
    You can't see the contradiction in your own statement, as per my bold highlights?  


    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    @Dee

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @MayCaesar

    @Happy_Killbot

    https://religionnews.com/2018/10/02/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think/

    OPINION

    "Why atheists are not as rational as some like to think"


    "Many atheists think that their atheism is the product of rational thinking. They use arguments such as “I don’t believe in God, I believe in science” to explain that evidence and logic, rather than supernatural belief and dogma, underpin their thinking. But just because you believe in evidence-based, scientific research – which is subject to strict checks and procedures – doesn’t mean that your mind works in the same way.

    When you ask atheists about why they became atheists (as I do for a living), they often point to eureka moments when they came to realise that religion simply doesn’t make sense.

    Oddly perhaps, many religious people actually take a similar view of atheism. This comes out when theologians and other theists speculate that it must be rather sad to be an atheist, lacking (as they think atheists do) so much of the philosophical, ethical, mythical and aesthetic fulfilments that religious people have access to – stuck in a cold world of rationality only.

    The science of atheism

    The problem that any rational thinker needs to tackle, though, is that the science increasingly shows that atheists are no more rational than theists. Indeed, atheists are just as susceptible as the next person to “group-think” and other non-rational forms of cognition. For example, religious and nonreligious people alike can end up following charismatic individuals without questioning them. And our minds often prefer righteousness over truth, as the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt has explored.

    Even atheist beliefs themselves have much less to do with rational inquiry than atheists often think. We now know, for example, that nonreligious children of religious parents cast off their beliefs for reasons that have little to do with intellectual reasoning. The latest cognitive research shows that the decisive factor is learning from what parents do rather than from what they say. So if a parent says that they’re Christian, but they’ve fallen out of the habit of doing the things they say should matter – such as praying or going to church – their kids simply don’t buy the idea that religion makes sense.

    This is perfectly rational in a sense, but children aren’t processing this on a cognitive level. Throughout our evolutionary history, humans have often lacked the time to scrutinise and weigh up the evidence – needing to make quick assessments. That means that children to some extent just absorb the crucial information, which in this case is that religious belief doesn’t appear to matter in the way that parents are saying it does.

    Children’s choices often aren’t based on rational thinking. Photo by Anna Nahabed/Shutterstock

    Even older children and adolescents who actually ponder the topic of religion may not be approaching it as independently as they think. Emerging research is demonstrating that atheist parents (and others) pass on their beliefs to their children in a similar way to religious parents – through sharing their culture as much as their arguments.

    Some parents take the view that their children should choose their beliefs for themselves, but what they then do is pass on certain ways of thinking about religion, like the idea that religion is a matter of choice rather than divine truth. It’s not surprising that almost all of these children – 95% – end up “choosing” to be atheist.

    Science versus beliefs

    But are atheists more likely to embrace science than religious people?

    Many belief systems can be more or less closely integrated with scientific knowledge. Some belief systems are openly critical of science, and think it has far too much sway over our lives, while other belief systems are hugely concerned to learn about and respond to scientific knowledge.

    But this difference doesn’t neatly map onto whether you are religious or not. Some Protestant traditions, for example, see rationality or scientific thinking as central to their religious lives. Meanwhile, a new generation of postmodern atheists highlight the limits of human knowledge, and see scientific knowledge as hugely limited, problematic even, especially when it comes to existential and ethical questions. These atheists might, for example, follow thinkers like Charles Baudelaire in the view that true knowledge is only found in artistic expression.

    Science can give us existential fulfillment, too. Photo by Vladimir Pustovit/Creative Commons

    And while many atheists do like to think of themselves as pro science, science and technology itself can sometimes be the basis of religious thinking or beliefs, or something very much like it. For example, the rise of the transhumanist movement, which centres on the belief that humans can and should transcend their current natural state and limitations through the use of technology, is an example of how technological innovation is driving the emergence of new movements that have much in common with religiosity.

    Even for those atheists sceptical of transhumanism, the role of science isn’t only about rationality – it can provide the philosophical, ethical, mythical and aesthetic fulfilments that religious beliefs do for others. The science of the biological world, for example, is much more than a topic of intellectual curiosity – for some atheists, it provides meaning and comfort in much the same way that belief in God can for theists. Psychologists show that belief in science increases in the face of stress and existential anxiety, just as religious beliefs intensify for theists in these situations.

    Clearly, the idea that being atheist is down to rationality alone is starting to look distinctly irrational. But the good news for all concerned is that rationality is overrated. Human ingenuity rests on a lot more than rational thinking. As Haidt says of “the righteous mind”, we are actually “designed to ‘do’ morality” – even if we’re not doing it in the rational way we think we are. The ability to make quick decisions, follow our passions and act on intuition are also important human qualities and crucial for our success.

    It is helpful that we have invented something that, unlike our minds, is rational and evidence-based: science. When we need proper evidence, science can very often provide it – as long as the topic is testable. Importantly, the scientific evidence does not tend to support the view that atheism is about rational thought and theism is about existential fulfilments. The truth is that humans are not like science – none of us get by without irrational action, nor without sources of existential meaning and comfort. Fortunately, though, nobody has to. "

    DeeGrafix
  • Grafix said:
    @SkepticalOne - You wrote:
    Doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
    Atheism doesn't have any beliefs, at least, not by default. The only thing necessary for one to be an atheist is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism has no doctrines.
    You can't see the contradiction in your own statement, as per my bold highlights?  


    No. I think you're  misunderstanding me, but explain the contradiction you see.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheistic_values

    "Atheistic values

     

    Atheistic values are the values displayed by atheists. They are a stark contrast to Christian Values, and include:



    SkepticalOneDeeGrafix
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020

    From the same Conservapedia.com website:

    Christian Values

    "Christian Values are the values held by practicing Christians. They are a stark contrast to Atheistic Values and Liberal Values, and well aligned with Conservative Values and Family Values. "


    "They include:

    • adherence to the Bible as the true word of God and the foundation for morality and civilization
    • opposition to the attempts by liberals to create a secular, atheistic society
    • rejection of separation of church and state
    • rejection of sins, including abortionhomosexuality, and the teaching of heresies
    • rejection of globalism[1] and the Idea of Progress
    • charitable works "

    "I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess. Martin Luther. "

    Dee
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    TKDB said:

    When you ask atheists about why they became atheists (as I do for a living), they often point to eureka moments when they came to realise that religion simply doesn’t make sense.
    And what about the people who never "became" atheists and just were them the entirety of their lives? At no point in my life, from the early childhood to now, did I need to consider the possibility that I need religion to explain anything around me. There was no eureka moment; rather, there was confusion a few times, "Wait, do people really believe these wacky fantasy stories? Why?"

    What speaks for atheism here is the fact that everybody is born atheist. Nobody is born theist; theism needs to be taught by someone to you in order for you to even consider it. Nobody goes about their life, randomly thinking, "Yes, there is god. It all makes sense. There is no other way to explain what I see." It is always a result of reading religious books, listening to religious people, etc. Nobody also randomly comes from atheism to theism; there is no moment where you just observe something and just decide, "Hey, you know what? I just realised: there is god, and everything around me was created by him!" No, it takes getting familiar with some religion to even consider it.

    See, atheism is the default position, while religion is a positive position - that is the crucial difference. Atheism does not state anything in particular about the world, it just says, "I will not assume existence of something I have no evidence of". Religion, on the other hand, explicitly claims the existence of some supernatural deity. Any positive position requires some knowledge, while default position does not, by definition. Furthermore, any positive position requires evidential support, while default position does not. If you manage to support a positive position with enough evidence, then the default position will need to be discarded - but until you have done so, it should not be.

    The author is right, however, that rationality is overrated, and that we rely on it much less than we tend to think. That, however, does not support the thesis that atheism is not rational. For that matter, both atheism and theism are rational from certain perspectives. They are very different, however, in terms of their relationship with logic.
    Blastcat
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar

    Where is your PROOF that I was born an Atheist, according to your individualized rationale?

    "What speaks for atheism here is the fact that everybody is born atheist."

    How does any Atheist go about labelling other people's baby's, as an Atheist, from right out of the womb? 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @TKDB

    I just explained it. Atheism is the default position, one that does not make any positive claims, hence every child born with no knowledge about the surrounding world, by definition, is Atheist. You could claim that some children eventually magically start believing in god, before anyone explains to them what a god is - but you would have a hard time coming up with explanation of how exactly that happens and why.
    Blastcat
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @MayCaesar

    You're wrong.

    But I do see what you're attempting to claim?


    "I just explained it."

    "Atheism is the default position, one that does not make any positive claims, hence every child born with no knowledge about the surrounding world, by definition, is Atheist."

    "You could claim that some children eventually magically start believing in god, before anyone explains to them what a god is - but you would have a hard time coming up with explanation of how exactly that happens and why."

    @MayCaesar

    And you CANNOT prove that anyone outside of the thought process that exists between your ears, that me, or anyone was born, outside of the Atheist ideology, that you're apparently trying to feed me with?

    Again you're wrong.

    And you don't know me or my family, to suggest that any of my family were BORN as an Atheist, because you say so, or that any of your Atheist cohorts say so.

    But keep educating me through the lens of your Atheist process, because I've got plenty of popcorn, to watch your Atheist Teachings with. 

    @MayCaesar

    What kind of an Atheist value, is it to tell other United States citizens, that they were born as an Atheist by default?

    Your Atheist mindset, is an Atheist value, that has zero to do with the original U.S. values.

    And you just proved that point, with your Atheist mindjob efforts, that you just displayed.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    Is this an Atheist US value, that some Atheist parents are teaching to their kids?

    See, kids, those religious parents, aren't being truthful to their kids. And the truth is, that their kids are really born by default, as an Atheist? 
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    @SkepticalOne

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @Dee

    Do you agree with these values as being Atheist values?

    "Atheistic values

     Atheistic values are the values displayed by atheists. They are a stark contrast to Christian Values, and include:



    What say you?
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Dee

    **** Just as being Religious is voluntary.

    "It’s not , tell me how many children pick their own religion? Bet you refuse to answer."

    @Dee

    Let me guess your answer, children are born as an Atheist by default, so does this maybe mean that some of the Atheist parents, are telling there kids, that they were born as an Atheist, by default?

    And my parent's let me pick my own religion.

    And I've yet to hear from other people, that expressed, that their parents, didn't let them pick their own religion.

    But I have heard from some who have expressed your similar sentiments, and they were Atheists.

    ****Hence the question, do some and their non Religious stances align with U.S. Values?  

    "What are “US values” you were asked this over 30 times in the past bet you refuse to answer as usual ?"

    U.S. Values are pro Kid, pro Family, pro Community, and pro Freedom of Religion, along with the below:

    "Christian Values are the values held by practicing Christians. They are a stark contrast to Atheistic Values and Liberal Values, and well aligned with Conservative Values and Family Values. "

    "They include:

    • adherence to the Bible as the true word of God and the foundation for morality and civilization
    • opposition to the attempts by liberals to create a secular, atheistic society
    • rejection of separation of church and state
    • rejection of sins, including abortionhomosexuality, and the teaching of heresies
    • rejection of globalism[1] and the Idea of Progress
    • charitable works " 

  • TKDB said:
    @MayCaesar

    @SkepticalOne

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @Dee

    Do you agree with these values as being Atheist values?
    No. Atheism is not a worldview, and there is no such thing as "Atheist values".
    PlaffelvohfenDeeZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    Where's your individual evidence to support your statements?

    "No. Atheism is not a worldview, and there is no such thing as "Atheist values".
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    Atheism is an internet enabled world view.


    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Where's your individual evidence to support your statements?

    "No. Atheism is not a worldview, and there is no such thing as "Atheist values".
    It's true by definition. Lack of belief is not a belief system..
    ZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne

    "No. Atheism is not a worldview, and there is no such thing as "Atheist values".

    So what you're saying is that you have no values?

    "It's true by definition. Lack of belief is not a belief system.."

    It would seem to me, that some Atheists, are about teaching an Atheist default system?


  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Do you agree with these values as being Atheist values?

    "Atheistic values

     Atheistic values are the values displayed by atheists. They are a stark contrast to Christian Values, and include:



    What say you? 
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    "No. Atheism is not a worldview, and there is no such thing as "Atheist values".

    So what you're saying is that you have no values?
    No. I'm saying my atheism doesn't inform my values.

    It would seem to me, that some Atheists, are about teaching an Atheist default system?
    I don't know what an "atheist default system" means.
    ZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    Trying to get reason out of @TKDB is similar to trying to herd  cats at a crossroads a totally futile exercise.

    Atheism is a position and a response  on one question only he has been told this millions of times but his only aim here is to troll and he not even good at that 
    SkepticalOneBlastcat
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @TKDB

    **** Let me guess your answer, children are born as an Atheist by default, so does this maybe mean that some of the Atheist parents, are telling there kids, that they were born as an Atheist, by default?

    Children are born with no beliefs ,I don’t know any atheist parents who told their kids that yet the reverse is true . What do you mean “by default”

    ****And my parent's let me pick my own religion.

    Really? At what age ? Bet you won’t answer .....again 

    ****And I've yet to hear from other people, that expressed, that their parents, didn't let them pick their own religion.

    Right , so christian parents do not take their kids to church until they can pick their own religion? Bet you won’t answer ....again 

    ****But I have heard from some who have expressed your similar sentiments, and they were Atheists.

    Really? How did they “express their sentiments” Also I find your claim extremely dubious 

    “What are “US values” you were asked this over 30 times in the past bet you refuse to answer as usual ?"

    *****U.S. Values are pro Kid, pro Family, pro Community, and pro Freedom of Religion, along with the below:


    "Christian Values are the values held by practicing Christians. They are a stark contrast to Atheistic Values and Liberal Values, and well aligned with Conservative Values and Family Values. "

    "They include:

    • adherence to the Bible as the true word of God and the foundation for morality and civilization
    • opposition to the attempts by liberals to create a secular, atheistic society
    • rejection of separation of church and state
    • rejection of sins, including abortionhomosexuality, and the teaching of heresies
    • rejection of globalism[1] and the Idea of Progress
    • charitable works

    They are your individual “ Christian values” do you speak for the U S?

    I don’t believe in god hows belief in god a US value?

    A secular society is not a “US value “ it’s your biased view of what a US value should be . There is no such thing as an “atheistic society “ 

    Separation of Church and state is necessary in a democracy 

    Whats sin ? Abortion I’m all for , you said you’ve nothing against homosexuality yet you show you hypocrisy now don’t you , heresies don’t make me laugh 

    I know you hate progress

    “ Charitable works “ yet you detest the poor , homeless and unemployed 
     
    Blastcat
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    It would seem to me, that some Atheists, are about teaching an Atheist default system?
    "I don't know what an "atheist default system" means."

    You could ask @MayCaesar to explain it to you?
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    Why do you debate with such an attitude?

    ****And my parent's let me pick my own religion.

    "Really? At what age ? Bet you won’t answer .....again"

    @Dee

    What are your Atheist values?
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    What are your Atheist values?
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    It would seem to me, that some Atheists, are about teaching an Atheist default system?
    "I don't know what an "atheist default system" means."

    You could ask @MayCaesar to explain it to you?
    If you can't explain it, then maybe you shouldn't make claims about it...
    ZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne

    @Dee

    My United States Christian values:

    I'm pro Adoption, pro Baby, pro Child pro Family, pro Community, pro Religious Freedom, pro Adoption, pro peaceful Atheist, pro Pure Science, pro legal U.S. citizen, and I reject the separation of church and state.

    I've yet to see or hear any publicly expressed Prayer, that hurt or caused the other humans around the said Prayer be harmed in any way shape or form?
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    What are your Atheist values?

    Yo no tengo "atheist values"....that's like asking for 'a-unicornist values' - it's an incoherent question because atheism (or a-unicornism) is not a worldview.
    ZeusAres42
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    **** Why do you debate with such an attitude?

    I asked you to defend the points you made you cannot so you troll as usual no surprise there 
    Blastcat
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne

    OK, what are your individual values?

    "Yo no tengo "atheist values"....
    "that's like asking for 'a-unicornist values' -
    it's an incoherent question because atheism (or a-unicornism) is not a worldview.,"

    And your unicorn oriented rhetoric, has zero to do with the theme of the forum, being that I didn't include unicorns as a part of the forum.

    Atheism is a worldview.

    https://carm.org/atheism/atheism-worldview

    Is atheism a worldview?

    by Matt Slick

    "In order to know if atheism is a worldview, we need to first define our terms.  A worldview is a set of propositions, beliefs, and assumptions that a person uses when relating to and interpreting the world around him.  If that definition isn't sufficient, please consider the following definition:

    "The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group." (thefreedictionary.com, answers.com/topic/worldview)

    So is atheism a worldview?  Yes, it is.  Think about it.  It is the Christian worldview to say that God exists, that he has given us our purpose, that we did not evolve, and that there is right and wrong which God reveals to us in the Bible.  We Christians view the world through this basic perspective.  Likewise, atheism is a worldview because it deals with the same issues.  It says that God does not exist1, that we determine our own purpose, that we evolved, that we develop our own morals, etc.  Atheism, or should we say, atheists, have answers to the same questions that Christians do concerning the world, purpose, morals, etc., that are based on there not being a God and/or the denial of God's influence in the world, morals, existence, etc.  Therefore, it is a worldview.

    But some atheists might object and say that there is no book like the Bible from which they derive answers to various questions.  But, they derive their beliefs and assumptions within the perspective that there is no God.  This means that even though different atheists will have different answers to questions, the same as Christians can have different answers to questions, the common denominator of the denial of God, no ultimate purpose, and subjective morals are necessarily parts of an atheistic worldview.

    Worldview Questions

    Worldviews are important because within them very important questions are asked and, hopefully, answered.  For example . . .

    1. What are we?
    2. Were we created or did we evolve?
    3. What is our purpose in life?
    4. Does God exist?
    5. From where do we derive our morals?
    6. Are there moral absolutes?
    7. Why is there suffering in the world?

    How might atheists and Christians answer these questions based on their worldviews? "




  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    Again, if you have an issue with this forum, I behoove you to take your individual grievances up with Aarong?

    "I asked you to defend the points you made you cannot so you troll as usual no surprise there."

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    I do not know what "Atheist default system" is: I said a different thing, that Atheism is the default system, meaning that you do not become a non-Atheist without doing some search first. In the lack of any explicit information, there is no reason to conclude that a supernatural deity exist; its existence is a positive claim, not a negative/neutral one, hence it requires some justification and search.

    Similar as, as a kid, you do not suddenly think that bright dots in the sky are burning gas giants. You need to learn something about it before you can reach that conclusion, and you need to learn even more before you understand why this is the only reasonable conclusion based on our data.
    Blastcat
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    OK, what are your individual values?

    "Yo no tengo "atheist values"....
    "that's like asking for 'a-unicornist values' -
    it's an incoherent question because atheism (or a-unicornism) is not a worldview.,"

    And your unicorn oriented rhetoric, has zero to do with the theme of the forum, being that I didn't include unicorns as a part of the forum.

    My values are likely very similar to yours, except I don't give credit or blame to some other being. 

    The analogy of a-unicornism is appropriate since my non-belief in unicorns has nothing to do with my values just like my non-belief in your deity.
    ZeusAres42TKDB
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne

    No they aren't, your values are no where near mine.

    My United States Christian values:
    I'm pro Adoption, pro Baby, pro Child pro Family, pro Community, pro Religious Freedom, pro Adoption, pro peaceful Atheist, pro Pure Science, pro legal U.S. citizen, and I reject the separation of church and state.


    "My values are likely very similar to yours, except I don't give credit or blame to some other being."

    Abortion is inappropriate, terrorism is inappropriate, adults killing adults with guns is inappropriate, and two adults creating an unwanted fetus is inappropriate.

    Are better examples of the inappropriate actions of others.

    And again your unicorn rhetoric, is off topic.

    "The analogy of a-unicornism is appropriate since my non-belief in unicorns has nothing to do with my values just like my non-belief in your deity."

    ZeusAres42
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2673 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Nope, your mind has ZERO to do with how you view my views.

    @TKDB he didn't say anything about how his Mind has anything to do with your views.



  • @TKDB

    ****I'm pro Adoption, pro Baby, pro Child pro Family, pro Community, pro Religious Freedom, pro Adoption, pro peaceful Atheist, pro Pure Science, pro legal U.S. citizen, and I reject the separation of church and state.****

    I agree with all of those values except I'm an advocate of a separation between state and religion (you can't have true religious freedom if religion is intertwined with the governing body). 

    I am also a strong advocate for equal human rights. This means I am Pro-Choice. 

    Overall, it seems our views are as predicted: very similar.


    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    @SkepticalOne

    Do you have an issue with Catholic Schools?

    Or what about a Catholic Church surrounded by the Capital, the House, and the Senate?

    If kids are saying prayers in a Public School, might you have a problem with that?

    And if so why?

    "I agree with all of those values except I'm an advocate of a separation between state and religion (you can't have true religious freedom if religion is intertwined with the governing body)."
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    "Sep 16, 2002 · Although Supreme Court rulings clarify many school-prayer issues, some areas of contention still exist. The establishment clause prohibits school officials from promoting or leading students in prayer. The free-exercise and free-speech clauses protect a student's right to engage in religious speech, including prayer."

    If there aren't any Crosses, or other Religious symbols inside of a PUBLIC school, than how can any public school, or school official, be unfairly viewed as promoting, or leading any student or students in prayer?

    For any Atheist, to go after any harmless prayer in any public school, says more about an Atheist parent, pushing their Atheist values unto any public school, to get their Atheist messaging across, by unfairly pushing their messaging unto the public school system in the United States?


  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Do you have an issue with Catholic Schools?

    Or what about a Catholic Church surrounded by the Capital, the House, and the Senate?

    If kids are saying prayers in a Public School, might you have a problem with that?

    And if so why?

    "I agree with all of those values except I'm an advocate of a separation between state and religion (you can't have true religious freedom if religion is intertwined with the governing body)."
    I don't care about the first or third option, and I don't know enough about the second option to weigh-in.
    A supreme being is just like a normal being...but with sour cream and black olives.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    Again, if you have an issue with this forum, I behoove you to take your individual grievances up with Aarong?
    Blastcat
  • GrafixGrafix 248 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @SkepticalOne -You asked me to explain the contradiction in this post below ...

    @ZeusAres42

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @Dee


    Look at the bold type (my highlights in your original post).  They define a doctrine as "a belief or set of beliefs held by a group".  The definition states one of the three social structures which utilize doctrines is "a  group".  Right?  Atheists, by definition, belong to "a group", which is neither a Church nor a political party.  You then stated that atheism has no beliefs, by default, declaring this to be so via a lack of belief in gods.  That's merely expressing the negative of the positive statement, i.e., that atheists believe there are no gods.  That's a belief in and of itself and is also the necessary doctrine.which defines and identifies an atheist.
    The further back we look, the greater forward insight we can have. History speaks.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited February 2020
    @Dee

    @ZeusAres42

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @SkepticalOne

    Separation of Church and State is an example of utilized Atheist Segregation, IE segregating prayer from schools.

    Therefore Atheist Segregation is a form of Atheist values.
    PlaffelvohfenDee
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