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Is the US a post scarcity civilization?

Debate Information

A post scarcity civilization is a theoretical economic situation in which the society has achieved such extreme material wealth that there is virtually no limit on the amount of goods and services that are available to the individual. Every need can be produced at costs so low that they are effectively free, and there is virtually no poverty. Post scarcity does not mean that there is unlimited wealth, as this is impossible within the finite confines of our universe, but rather that all needs are met and most wants are as well.

I can think of three arguments that the US is already post scarcity:

Although there is still poverty in the US, and much of it is concentrated in cities and slums, this poverty could theoretically be eliminated at any time.The total wealth of the US, (this includes not just free cash but also assets such as homes, savings, and retirement accounts minus liabilities such as loans) is about $98 trillion! If this were evenly distributed, we would each have almost $300,000 worth of assets each. The median house cost according to Zillow is $245,139 leaving about $65,000 worth of other assets, such as a car and appliances. (rounding for ease of concept) This is already more than enough to cover all of the basic needs of everyone in the US. The US GDP is about $19.39 trillion dollars annually. This is likewise sufficient that everyone should be able to have their needs covered and a little more. If the entire US and all companies within were turned into a single mega corporation, with every individual having an equal share, that would net each person would net almost $60,000 per year, more than enough to live comfortably on.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/06/25/six-facts-about-wealth-in-the-united-states/
https://www.zillow.com/home-values/

Just looking at the average however is not a good analysis of the actual finances of a country. Suppose all the wealth was concentrated into one person's hands, the average might still be high without meaning anything. To visualize this, would you try to drive across a river if all you knew was that on average it was 2 feet deep? For all you know it is 6 inches and flat on the banks and 10 feet deep in the middle. In the US there is a lot of wealth inequality, with the top 1% owning 43% of all wealth. However, this is not sufficient to counter the claim that the US is a post scarcity civilization, because there is a large middle and upper class who have enough to meet their needs and more. For the most part, the number of people who live in poverty is relatively small, 11.8%. The average person will still be able to get as much as they need to survive.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2019/demo/p60-266.html

The third argument is one about the type of economy in the US. The US is mostly a service economy which is driven by artificial demand, rather than simply meet the needs of people the economy of the US has to create new demand for products and services through the US of advertising and marketing in order to move more products and services that would normally not see any market at all, thus there are tons of things that people can buy that have no real utility or value beyond that they exist, and someone convinced you that you want them. The transition to this type of economy is symptomatic of one in which all of the people's basic needs have been met, and more. On top of this, debt is the driver of the US consumer economy more than anything else, people buy things on credit and them pay it back latter. This implies that the products that are being sold are produced readily such that those making them could be giving these resources out for much cheaper or even for free. This type of economy is not possible in a world where there is no security or where the total resources are not available at all.

These are my arguments that the US is already a post scarcity civilization, or at the very least will be in the near future. While these are not the most convincing arguments, I think there is enough evidence here to be contentious.
At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
Through a long process of evolution this life 
developed into the human race.
Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

All of that so we can argue about nothing.



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  • NopeNope 397 Pts   -  
    Does the potential for reaching everyone fundamental needs and some of there artificial needs qualify a society as being post scarcity? How many people need to have there needs and some of there wants met before a society can be considered a post scarcity civilization? Some estimates put the population of the US living in poverty at around 12%. (Poverty being the cost needed to meet a citizens average basic needs)That seems a little high to be calling the US a post scarcity civilization. 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    "Post-scarcity" does not just apply to the most basic needs such as food, water and shelter; we had those satisfied millennia ago in the most prosperous countries. It applies to most other goods people take as a given as well, and it also implies some level of "undepletability" of resources on the personal level.

    We are very-very well off, but we are far away from a post-scarcity civilisation. You can say that you live in a post-scarcity civilisation when the average person can burn their house with all belongings and then buy/take another fully equipped house without as much as a dent in their personal finances. This is obviously not the case anywhere on the planet, and probably will not be until many centuries later.

    As it is, most of us are still strongly reliant on threads of fate. You may think everything is fine in your life, then tomorrow some natural disaster happens and you lose almost everything. And while the vast majority of people will never experience such a disaster, the very possibility of it indicates that we have a long way to go still.

    As I see it, we will not live in anything resembling a post-scarcity civilisation until every individual becomes their own producer. I can see a few centuries down the road everyone having robots serving their needs and producing goods endlessly; then nobody will need anyone else to survive, everyone will be completely self-sufficient, and "working" will be a pleasant option, but not an essential one. Until then, we are going to be confined by the ability to sell our skills and ideas to other people and reliant on some sort of stability in our lives.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar Why should it be required that everyone is their own producer? Would it be any different if the production is held at different organizational levels, besides that the fruits of those labors would be more or less spread out depending on the organization?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    Technically, I think so... But, I also think scarcity is intentionally and artificially maintained... 
    Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen I think that would be an underlying point I don't explicitly make, and it is one of the major criticisms of capitalism.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot ;

    It is not in principle required, but I do not see how scarcity can practically end without it. As long as you do not have the direct tools to produce what you want, you are always dependent on someone else to produce it for you, and, no matter how good they are at catering to their needs - be it a centralised organisation or a free market - your abundance is conditional upon other people's choices.

    I see post-scarcity civilisation as something like this: everyone has their own space ship with fully autonomous production on board, and what is traded between people is not goods, but raw resources and designs.

    I guess, strictly speaking, whether one lives in a post-scarcity civilisation depends on their personal standards and philosophy. There are people (many of them are Buddhists) who believe in abundance in principle, for example, and consider scarcity to be a condition of the mind, so in their eyes we always live in a post-scarcity society.
  • smoothiesmoothie 434 Pts   -  
    I think we will really hit post-scarcity when we hit the level of Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism™

    Coming to a civilization near you 2140
    Happy_Killbot
    why so serious?
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