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The conflation Regarding Abortion

Debate Information

It was recently pointed out to me on another site which I hadn't considered before that what constitutes as being the definition of human life and/or when human life begins is often conflated with the moral acceptability of abortion. If abortion is murder because it is taking away a life then so is the Death Penalty, War heroes that fought for our nations are actually murderers, Euthanasia is murder, masturbation is murder, and so forth.

In fact, some might even consider that they're doing an unborn a favor by aborting if they are of the view that life in this world is nothing more than a meaningless phase in this universe that just brings about nothing more than an endless amount of needless suffering according to their own moral stances.

In summary, I will conclude that the idea of life or the talk about when human life begins is irrelevant to the abortion debate for two reasons. For one,  there is no point at which life can be said to have begun anyway; it's much more of a continuous process than anything else (AKA the metabolic stance in Bioethics, http://science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/BioEthics/Articles/Whendoeshumanlifebegin.pdf). And that is let alone the actual definition as to what actually constitutes as being life. And secondly, it is nothing more than a conflation of morality and life. Thus, this leads us to another problem which is the subject of morality. With regard to the abortion debate what needs to be considered are if the reasons given are valid and strong enough to warrant if abortion is necessary or unnecessary in any given circumstance. And the idea that abortion is generally unacceptable because it is to do with taking away life or the potential for life is not good enough. And if you are of this notion then you will also need to be consistent and hold the exact same view about the Death penalty, Euthanasia, War, Sexual intercourse, and so on.
We_are_accountableJosh_Drake






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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    I have heard this reasoning before, and it opens a huge can of worms. Considering how many actions we take every day without thinking can, in principle, prevent some human from being born that otherwise could, it is virtually impossible to take any action without having a good chance of becoming a murderer.

    For example, I just ate a few protein bars. There is a chance that, if I instead had sent them over to a charity organisation, which, in turn, had sent them over to Africa, then it would find its way into the hands of a starving pregnant mother, and that mother might just be saved solely because of these protein bars, proceeding to give birth to a child.
    Does it mean that eating these protein bars may constitute a violation? I do not think so.

    In order for something to be a valid crime, there has to be a well determined victim, and that victim has to be around to be able to be a victim. An unborn child is not a victim, as it is not there in this world. A hypothetical pregnant African woman is not a victim, because there is no clear way to demonstrate otherwise. Presumption of innocence is a thing, and, unless a clear damage to an existing living breathing human can be demonstrated, the person cannot be considered guilty of harming them.

    As for your last paragraph, I am not sure if it holds objectively, since some people do see human life as valuable in itself. I personally do not; to me a human life is just an abstract concept, and what really matters is what impact that human life has on the world - however, a sentient human being is valuable in itself, although I have always struggled justifying it logically. But, in general, anything can be considered valuable in itself by a certain reasoning.
    Josh_DrakeBlastcat

  • I am not sure if you're either agreeing or disagreeing with anything I just said. As it is it seems very much like a lot of what you're saying is the exact thing that I just said but in different wording.
    Josh_Drake



  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 Emerald Premium Member 2665 Pts   -   edited March 2020
    MayCaesar said:
    I have heard this reasoning before, and it opens a huge can of worms. Considering how many actions we take every day without thinking can, in principle, prevent some human from being born that otherwise could, it is virtually impossible to take any action without having a good chance of becoming a murderer.


    Post edited as not sure the previous point was even relevant.
    Josh_Drake



  • MayCaesar said:

    As for your last paragraph, I am not sure if it holds objectively, since some people do see human life as valuable in itself. I personally do not; to me a human life is just an abstract concept, and what really matters is what impact that human life has on the world - however, a sentient human being is valuable in itself, although I have always struggled justifying it logically. But, in general, anything can be considered valuable in itself by a certain reasoning.

    As for this bit, I am very much in agreement. I didn't say it holds objectively and I am also of the position that I am not sure this holds objectively either.
    Josh_Drake



  • @ZeusAres42 ;

    First abortion is not a question of murder or not murder. Abortion in relationship to the united state made as a union with women, pregnancy, and the law is a described murder. The action of describing the murder invades a person’s privacy. What is being asked is if the woman is guilty of the murder she told, ask and/or insist on confessing.

    In the United States of America, a constitutional union of grievance both with men and women can be made on that fact.  

  • John_C_87 said:
    @ZeusAres42 ;

    First abortion is not a question of murder or not murder. Abortion in relationship to the united state made as a union with women, pregnancy, and the law is a described murder. The action of describing the murder invades a person’s privacy. What is being asked is if the woman is guilty of the murder she told, ask and/or insist on confessing.

    In the United States of America, a constitutional union of grievance both with men and women can be made on that fact.  


    @John_C_87 it is noted that the abortion dilemma falls on all categories of rhetoric and reverence ergo visa vie concordantly with the superficial artificial and counterfactual quantum particles of the academia being devoid of the discontention and discombobulation which bamboozled the united states constitutional allignment which in turn had in its comparison to the brevity of the disingenuous bonafide ad hoc ad nauseam to become demonstrably noticeable of what constitutes as the ratio of the conclusion to which must not be neglected in turn because of the algebraic equations and equivalencies of morality ethical legalities devoid of such due process.

    FYI, I know you can elucidate your statement as I've seen you do it before. Come on now John, don't be shy.
    Josh_Drake



  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -  
    I'm pro unborn fetus, pro Adoption, pro Child, pro Family, pro Community, and pro Humanity, in regards to "abortion."

    The Death penalty, is self inflicted by the criminal or the offender, who committed their anti Family, Community, and anti Humanity crimes.

    So when people want to defend people, who committed a crime that took an innocent persons life, then the Death penalty is appropriate.
  • TKDB said:
    I'm pro unborn fetus, pro Adoption, pro Child, pro Family, pro Community, and pro Humanity, in regards to "abortion."

    The Death penalty, is self inflicted by the criminal or the offender, who committed their anti Family, Community, and anti Humanity crimes.

    So when people want to defend people, who committed a crime that took an innocent persons life, then the Death penalty is appropriate.

    So, then you're not pro-life are you?
    Josh_Drake



  • @ZeusAres42 ;

    The loss of privacy was not rhetoric, not in 1973 and not now. It's not about murder it is about women failing to create all women as equal to negate prejudice between them. Just tired of waiting.
  • John_C_87 said:
    @ZeusAres42 ;

    The loss of privacy was not rhetoric, not in 1973 and not now. It's not about murder it is about women failing to create all women as equal to negate prejudice between them. Just tired of waiting.
    @John_C_87 right, now I can deduce that what you're talking about is female rights. And when a female or group females are talking about abortion we need to consider all female points of view which include those females that are against abortion as well as those that are advocates of abortion. I guess there is some sort of cognitive bias at play with some of us males where we may automatically think that all females will be pro-abortion which isn't the case. If this is your line of thinking then I think it is a brilliant argument and one where I will need a little more reflection prior to my next response.
    Josh_Drake



  • @ZeusAres42 ;

    Female United States Constitutional right. All women are created equal by their creator. Men are not the creator in this argument of debate the creator is some form of pregnancy that is the creator of all women. Without prejudice we to create a more perfect union between all women as a united state in this connection made with pregnancy and the woman who may take part in many possible ways they can use pregnancy. 


    Prejudice is not limited to sexual discrimination between men and woman it includes discrimination between a woman with other women.
  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited March 2020
    @ZeusAres42

    Are you maybe trying to tell me how to think, because your line of thought seems to imply that?

    "So, then you're not pro-life are you?"

    I ask because your question is a loaded, or a biased oriented question, it would appear?

    I'm pro Life, but I will not be a supporter of any criminal or offender, who is incarcerated for acting in an anti Family capacity, because of their committed crimes of infringing on an innocent person's life, or Right to live, by having a criminal or offender, violating their Right to live, via their committed crimes?

    I would be very curious to see how the family of a victim, might respond to your, (" So, then you're not pro life are you?" Question.) as you ask them in person, if the criminal who took their family members life, were given the Death penalty, outside of any courtroom, after asking the family, if they disagreed with the criminals Death penalty verdict? 


  • @TKDB if you support the death penalty then you cannot be pro life as that is a logical inconsistency. 

    You cannot justify being prolife in the abortion case and then say you are fine with the taking away of life in the death penalty or any other cases that involve taking away a life. Because then it is no longer a case of being pro-life. 

    Your post pretty much proves my point about morality conflation regarding the abortion debate.
    Josh_Drake



  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited March 2020
    @ZeusAres42

    You just proved that your opinion, is self served, by using "ME" to push your individual rhetoric, right?

    "@TKDB if you support the death penalty then you cannot be pro life as that is a logical inconsistency. 

    You cannot justify being prolife in the abortion case and then say you are fine with the taking away of life in the death penalty or any other cases that involve taking away a life. Because then it is no longer a case of being pro-life. 

    Your post pretty much proves my point about morality conflation regarding the abortion debate."

    @ZeusAres42

    I will always place Adoption, Kids, Family, Community, and Humanity above your apparent pro criminal, pro offender, and your anti Death Penalty attitudes?

    @ZeusAres42

    Because there isn't a rapist, shooter, or killer, who is incarcerated in jail, that can claim that they are pro life, can they?

    But you'll judge my argument, and you'll give those criminals, and offenders, an apparent pass?

    Because going after my argument, is easier than asking a prisoner who is in jail for rape, murder, and their other crimes right?

    "You cannot justify being prolife in the abortion case and then say you are fine with the taking away of life in the death penalty or any other cases that involve taking away a life. Because then it is no longer a case of being pro-life."

    IE the gun violence crimes, abortion, rape, murder, sexual assaults, drive by shootings, domestic violence, and so on.





    ZeusAres42
  • @TKDB if you support the death penalty then you cannot be pro life as that is a logical inconsistency. 

    You cannot justify being prolife in the abortion case and then say you are fine with the taking away of life in the death penalty or any other cases that involve taking away a life. Because then it is no longer a case of being pro-life. 

    Your post pretty much proves my point about morality conflation regarding the abortion debate.

    Capital Punishment is not really the same as the death penalty. As the fact is everyone might justify the admission of taking a life. No-one justices the loss of privacy by forcing people to make the admission to take life by use of capital punishment. There is a trial process abortion is a tribunal process.


  • @TKDB it really is quite simple. If you are against abortion because you support life then you cannot say that you support the death penalty as that is the very act of taking away a life also.  If you say you are pro life except in cases of the death penalty this is nothing more than a fallacy of special pleading. You're either pro Life which means support for all life or you're not.  
    Josh_Drake



  • TKDBTKDB 694 Pts   -   edited March 2020
    @ZeusAres42

    Are trying to tell me how to think?

    "@TKDB it really is quite simple. If you are against abortion because you support life then you cannot say that you support the death penalty as that is the very act of taking away a life also.  If you say you are pro life except in cases of the death penalty this is nothing more than a fallacy of special pleading. You're either pro Life which means support for all life or you're not."

    Because an abortion, is no different from the Death Penalty, is it?

    But here you are, trying to tell people, that their thinking is a fallacy, because they're not seeing things according to the words coming out of your own mouth right?

    How does a fetus deserve to be aborted because two consensual adults were too lazy to use contraceptives, before being intimate?

    Is an incarcerated prisoners life, more important than an unborn babies life is, ZeusAres42, because that question should be easy to answer right?

    @ZeusAres42 ;
    Rape is a fallacy, isn't it?
    Sexual assault is a fallacy, isn't it?
    Abortion is a fallacy, isn't it?

    @ZeusAres42 ;
    Are you pro incarcerated prisoner?

    Are you pro Abortion?

    Are you pro family, or are you pro criminal, and pro offender? 
    (Because if you're pro criminal, and offender, then how can you be pro family at the same time?)


    @ZeusAres42

    Because if you're pro incarcerated prisoner, and pro criminal, and pro offender, while being pro Abortion at the same time, then the rhetoric that you've been shoveling in my direction, makes sense.


  • TKDB said:
    @ZeusAres42

    Are trying to tell me how to think?

    "@TKDB it really is quite simple. If you are against abortion because you support life then you cannot say that you support the death penalty as that is the very act of taking away a life also.  If you say you are pro life except in cases of the death penalty this is nothing more than a fallacy of special pleading. You're either pro Life which means support for all life or you're not."

    Because an abortion, is no different from the Death Penalty, is it?

    But here you are, trying to tell people, that their thinking is a fallacy, because they're not seeing things according to the words coming out of your own mouth right?

    How does a fetus deserve to be aborted because two consensual adults were too lazy to use contraceptives, before being intimate?

    Is an incarcerated prisoners life, more important than an unborn babies life is, ZeusAres42, because that question should be easy to answer right?

    @ZeusAres42 ;
    Rape is a fallacy, isn't it?
    Sexual assault is a fallacy, isn't it?
    Abortion is a fallacy, isn't it?

    @ZeusAres42 ;
    Are you pro incarcerated prisoner?

    Are you pro Abortion?

    Are you pro family, or are you pro criminal, and pro offender? 
    (Because if you're pro criminal, and offender, then how can you be pro family at the same time?)


    @ZeusAres42

    Because if you're pro incarcerated prisoner, and pro criminal, and pro offender, while being pro Abortion at the same time, then the rhetoric that you've been shoveling in my direction, makes sense.



    Wow. You got all that just by me saying you cannot be pro-life and support the death penalty at the same time? Really? Wow!
    Josh_Drake



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