A Logical case against veganism.

MayCaesar

Your logic is correct (at least I cannot find any errors in it) - however, I do not see it as a case against veganism. Yes, vegans should not eat insects, and yes, some self-called vegans do, and their position is inconsistent in this regard - however, there very well can be vegans (I do not know if there actually are; I have only met one open vegan in my life and did not talk much to her about it) that, indeed, do not eat insects, and their position is completely consistent.

I think you made a logical case against some types of self-proclaimed veganism, but not against veganism as such.

Props for using the mathematical logic language! Not that I understood everything - it has been years since I used this notation - but it is great that there are people out there taking logic so seriously.

Dee

Well constructed argument and I like the way you’ve laid it out. Vegans do not eat animals out of  empathy regards the capacity of animals to suffer an insect does not suffer pain according to experts in the field nor does a plant unless one wishes to call reactions to stimuli “pain”. 

To be fair to vegans I like that broadly speaking their goals and intentions are honorable  

Ampersand

GailHunter said:

I would like to first make something clear through an argument that in order to be vegan you cannot engage in the practice of eating insects.

Note: symbols are from Propositional Logic, Deontic logic and Predicate Calculus. Writing them down helps me logically proof the conclusions of the argument.

P1) the definition of vegan - someone who does not eat animals or consume animal products(V ⇔ ¬(Py ν Ey))

P2) the definition of an animal is a multicellular eukaryote (Ay ⇔ My)

P3) anything that is an insect is a multicellular eukaryotes (Iy ⇒ My)

C1)Therefore, anything that is an insect is an animal. (Iy ⇒ Ay)

P5) All Vegans find it impermissible to eat animals or have not eaten animals while they are vegan. ((∀x)(Vx) ⇒ (IM(Ay) ν ¬Ay))

P6)Entomophagy - the practice of eating insects(Ey ⇔ Uy).

C2)Therefore, all vegans find it impermissible to engage in entomophagy or vegans have not engaged in entomophagy while they are vegan. ((∀x)(Vx) ⇒ (IM(Ey) ν ¬Ey))

C3) Therefore, there does not exist a vegan, who does not eat insects while they are vegan or find it impermissible to eat insects. (¬(Ǝx) ¬((VEx) ⇒ (IM(Iy) ν ¬Iy)))

C4)Therefore, it is impossible to be vegan and engage in entomophagy. ¬◇(V ∧ E)

I do not believe that all vegans find entomophagy impermissible.

I would like to know why it is impermissible to engage in entomophagy? If you do not find impermissible to engage in entomophagy then you find virtually all animals on land permissible to eat. Which means you would find it optional to engage in entomophagy.

tl;dr

no vegans eat insects as insects are animals.

Entomophagy - the practice of eating insects. do any of vegans find it to be impermissible to eat insects and why?

It's a good argument right up until the point where you don't in any way relate it to the premise. The inability to eat insects and not be vegan doesn't mean that you can't be vegan - you just be vegan and don't eat insects. I'm vegan myself for environmental reasons and I also don't eat insects. Problem solved.

Now I probably actually would eat insects and not be a vegan (as insects have a very small carbon footprint) if it wasn't for:

a) I find the idea super gross, it's hard to fight against beliefs that will have been ingrained in me about what's right to eat since I was a child and the idea of eating insects in disgusting to me. I'd therefore rather stick to a vegan diet even though insects would be acceptable under the world view (a need to lower carbon emissions) that lead me to adopt a vegan diet.

b) I live in a western nation and nowhere sells insects even if I did want to eat them.

MichaelElpers

What you could relate it to isthat vegans are trying to save the lives of animals, but farming to produce the vegetables that they eat must kill insects and other small organisms by the millions in order to keep the crop healthy.

AuroraKelly

@Dee I think a majority of vegans would rather eat a ladybug who feels pain over a numb sleeping goat.

JGXdebatePRO

@AuroraKelly You're missing the point of veganism. Vegans consider animals to have rights, no matter if this means a ladybird or a goat.

MichaelElpers

@JGXdebatePRO. Then why do they only eat plans which kill millions of insects spraying pesticides ect.

Ampersand

MichaelElpers said:

@JGXdebatePRO. Then why do they only eat plans which kill millions of insects spraying pesticides ect.

Heard of organically farmed vegetables? Also animals are often raised on feed that will have been farmed in the same manner.

JGXdebatePRO said:

@AuroraKelly You're missing the point of veganism. Vegans consider animals to have rights, no matter if this means a ladybird or a goat.

Not always. Case in point me. I'm vegan due to the environmental issue of meat's carbon footprint and the impact on humanity. I like animals on an individual level but in the grand scheme of things if at some point in the future we end up being able to sustainably farm meat, I'd go back to eating meat.

Happy_Killbot

@GailHunter I wish I would have paid closer attention to your argument earlier, but there actually is an issue with the logic. You define an animal as: "the definition of an animal is a multicellular eukaryote " as your second premise. The problem with this is that plants and fungi are eukariotic, so one could replace plant or fungus with insect in premise 3 without changing the formula of the logic, but this would result in a false statement because no plant is an animal.

I am aware that you are trying to take a shortcut here to prove that an insect is an animal, but I would suggest you use a slightly more complex definition of what is and isn't an animal.

As has been stated above by others, and just to reiterate, this logic does little against veganism, although it does prove that anyone who engages in Entomophagy can not be a vegan.

onethinhandle56

B12.