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'I am not a racist': Trump responds to reported 'sh'thole' comment
in News

By ale5ale5 245 Pts
Article -
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-not-a-racist-shithole-immigration-comment-daca-deal/

No, no, I am not a racist. I am the least racist person you have ever interviewed. That, I can tell you," he said.

Hmmm...Not too many people would buy into Trump being the least racist person.  While he has a poor chance of defending his sh...hole remark as not being inappropriate, he has no chance of being least racist
aarongnatbaronsyolostidejoecavalry
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Arguments

  • Trump is not a racist, but may have said that comment.
  • ale5ale5 245 Pts
    @natbarons, "may have"? He absolutely made that comment.  What excuse do you propose for this comment by Trump?
    George_HorseBaconToes
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • The only credible defense to Trump being a racist would be the "I'm simply an A-hole" defense, meaning he's just nasty to everyone, not necessarily to people of particular races.  If he shifts to that defense then I might just believe him.  Otherwise, as long as he is using the "I didn't say that" type of defense I think he has no credibility at all.
  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 432 Pts
    edited January 2018
    Racism - the belief in the superiority of one race over another

     Racist - anyone who holds this belief
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • If trump is a racist, he's doing a pretty bad job of it;

    Black unemployment hits all-time low

    Hispanic unemployment at all-time low under Trump
    George_HorseOakchairbc
  • How about that, the only person that says Trump actually called other countries 'sh!tholes' is Durbin

    https://powderedwigsociety.com/durbin-is-a-liar-2/

    George_HorseOakchairbc
  • The people in the meeting should not have said what Trump said. 
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • ale5 said:
    @natbarons, "may have"? He absolutely made that comment.  What excuse do you propose for this comment by Trump?

    With what evidence?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • CYDdharta said:
    Pedophile unemployment is also at an all time low so using your logic Trump and you rape children. 
    Your post is the perfect example of a non-sequitar logical fallacy. You must be from Texas where Republicans banned critical thinking.
  • Pedophile unemployment is also at an all time low so using your logic Trump and you rape children. 
    Your post is the perfect example of a non-sequitar logical fallacy. You must be from Texas where Republicans banned critical thinking.
    Do you have studies showing pedophile unemployment is at an all time low, or are you just making stuff up again?
    OakchairbcGeorge_Horse
  • In any conversation, I perceive the term “racist” an insulting term aligned with bulling. In general, starting a debate or conversation with “racist” will soon sink to a “sh’thole” level.

    The only race I’m associated with is the human race. The way I see it, one who is “racist” is one who laments over the differentiation with other nonhuman primates (aka those who embrace animal rights).      

    Please don’t bore me with a dictionary definition of one who believes in racism is a doctrine that one’s own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.  

    To be more accurate, the struggle in any presentation on the differences between human “groups” is one of culture since we are all part of the human race. And on that note, the culture I’m associated with is the culture of Americanism. A proud culture rich in the spectrum of color, a wide diversity in religion and philosophy all living together with the natural struggles in the evolution of social harmony.  

  • I don't think anyone here can contend that Trump called other countries "Sh!tholes".  I personally think he did and I think it's mostly just hilarious.  Saying that "Haiti is a Sh!thole" is NOT racist.  We will not stoop to the "Racism exists somewhere out there in the ether" argument.  Either you're racist against one or multiple races or your simply not racist.  Racism can be targeted, you can target a racist and address him/her specifically.  So in order to say that his comment was Racist...I would have to know...what specific race do you believe exists exclusively in the country Trump referenced and does it make you a racist for believing that?

    1. Haiti IS a Sh!thole.  Haiti established itself as a country only 30 years after America and look at it...they're starving...still...natural disaster or not.
    2. There's nothing racist about calling Haiti a "Sh!thole".
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    1. Haiti IS a Sh!thole.  Haiti established itself as a country only 30 years after America and look at it...they're starving...still...natural disaster or not.
    Haiti is poor and starving because of the French and other European Nations (also the U.S.). When Haiti was a colony of the French, the land was pillaged and when it became independent, no one wanted to trade with the new country and support it. 
    "Well, the French ships that brought slaves from Africa to Haiti and unloaded those slaves, now you have empty ships. Are they going to cross back empty or carry some stuff? And the French had them carry stuff. Namely, they cut-down trees and exported lots of timber from Haiti. So part of the reason why the Haitian side today is brown is that deforestation that began two centuries ago, plus the fact that it's dryer. When you cut down trees, they regrow more slowly and the deforestation persists."
    "To have imports - the imports cost money. Initially, Haiti was the richest colony in the world. It's incredible that it accounted for about half of France's foreign exchange because of its sugar plantations, up to independence in 1804. But then, after independence, Haiti did not want to accept immigration or investment from Europeans who would bring back slavery. Europeans and Americans did not want to invest in Haiti because they did not want to see a former slave colony succeed, independently. And so, Haiti gradually became and poorer and poorer until they are now the poorest country in the New World, unable to shell out the money to import oil and other stuff that would replace charcoal." 

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123374267

    Trump also said the sh!thole countries comment about African nations and said we want more people from Norway meaning he was referring to the people
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Vaulk said:
    I don't think anyone here can contend that Trump called other countries "Sh!tholes".  I personally think he did and I think it's mostly just hilarious.  Saying that "Haiti is a Sh!thole" is NOT racist.  We will not stoop to the "Racism exists somewhere out there in the ether" argument.  Either you're racist against one or multiple races or your simply not racist.  Racism can be targeted, you can target a racist and address him/her specifically.  So in order to say that his comment was Racist...I would have to know...what specific race do you believe exists exclusively in the country Trump referenced and does it make you a racist for believing that?

    1. Haiti IS a Sh!thole.  Haiti established itself as a country only 30 years after America and look at it...they're starving...still...natural disaster or not.
    2. There's nothing racist about calling Haiti a "Sh!thole".
    Trump was whining about having immigration from Africa etc and at the end quipped “why can’t we have more immigration from white countries” That and his “Nazis are fine people” and his many other racists outburst like how Mexicans are rapeists and his hiring of white supreme it’s his retweeting of white supremistist etc etc etc tell us clearly that he is a racist. Stop denying reality you aren’t fooling anyone.
  • Trump was whining about having immigration from Africa etc and at the end quipped “why can’t we have more immigration from white countries” That and his “Nazis are fine people” and his many other racists outburst like how Mexicans are rapeists and his hiring of white supreme it’s his retweeting of white supremistist etc etc etc tell us clearly that he is a racist. Stop denying reality you aren’t fooling anyone.
    I see you're busy making up crap again.  If it weren't for making up lies, would you have anything to post?
    Oakchairbc
  • CYDdharta said:
    Trump was whining about having immigration from Africa etc and at the end quipped “why can’t we have more immigration from white countries” That and his “Nazis are fine people” and his many other racists outburst like how Mexicans are rapeists and his hiring of white supreme it’s his retweeting of white supremistist etc etc etc tell us clearly that he is a racist. Stop denying reality you aren’t fooling anyone.
    I see you're busy making up crap again.  If it weren't for making up lies, would you have anything to post?
    Oakchairbc is not making this stuff up. Why do you deny quotes?
    Oakchairbc
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Pogue said:
    Oakchairbc is not making this stuff up. Why do you deny quotes?
    He absolutely IS making it up.  Show me ANYWHERE where Trump is quoted as saying “why can’t we have more immigration from white countries”  or that “Nazis are fine people”
    Oakchairbc
  • @CYDdharta
    He said this about the White Supremacists/ Neo-Nazi riot in Charlottesville “You also had some very fine people on both sides,” which was also just reported on CNN. Stop denying facts.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/
    Oakchairbc
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Pogue said:
    @CYDdharta
    He said this about the White Supremacists/ Neo-Nazi riot in Charlottesville “You also had some very fine people on both sides,” which was also just reported on CNN. Stop denying facts.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/
    That's a far cry from "Nazis are fine people".  What he should have said was that there are assholes on both sides, that would have been more accurate.  Antifa is no better than the neo-Nazis, which is what he was getting at.  What he actually said about Nazi's is that they are repugnant and racism is evil.

    Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/politics/trump-condemns-charlottesville-attackers/index.html

    It help to actually know the facts before you comment on them.

    Oakchairbc
  • someone234someone234 632 Pts
    edited January 2018
    When your mouth is anus shaped only this comes out.
  • @Oakchairbc

    Yea I'm afraid I've never heard the statement "Nazis are fine people".  You actually put this statement into quotations, indicating that it is a direct and verbatim statement...and it's never been said by the President.  This type of intentional (You stated later that it's not what he actually said) misquoting is what qualifies people to work for fake news organizations.  This is underhanded, it's uncalled for and downright despicable.

    Trump also never said Oakchairbc said:
    “why can’t we have more immigration from white countries” 
    Again, another great example of what it looks like when someone completely and totally misrepresents a quote *Intentionally* in order to make someone out to seem like a horrible person.  This is leftist ideology at work and it's what got Trump elected in the first place.  If you have to stoop so incredibly low into sewage in order to make someone look bad...you lose.  The reason Trump's in power right now is because the Left spent so much time and energy trying to destroy him with underhanded tactics that by the time everyone realized what they were doing...they WANTED Trump to win.  

    It's like watching two kids on the playground compete for the spot at the top of the jungle gym.  The kid who throws sand and cheats his way up to the top ends up getting booed off by everyone watching and not only gets the automatic loss but gets humiliated for their actions.  Then they spend the rest of the school year being constantly reminded that no one wants to play with them because they're dishonorable.

    But you know what?  Trump actually needs people to do what you're doing.  There's nothing quite like having an opponent who can't refrain from overtly lying in order to win.  We need more left wing liberals who hate Trump to keep making this stuff up so that everyone can continue to evaluate the leftists for their actions and base their decision/vote on the despicable nature that the left continues to show them.  


    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • PoguePogue 554 Pts
    edited January 2018
    CYDdharta said:
    Pogue said:
    @CYDdharta
    He said this about the White Supremacists/ Neo-Nazi riot in Charlottesville “You also had some very fine people on both sides,” which was also just reported on CNN. Stop denying facts.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/
    That's a far cry from "Nazis are fine people".  What he should have said was that there are assholes on both sides, that would have been more accurate.  Antifa is no better than the neo-Nazis, which is what he was getting at.  What he actually said about Nazi's is that they are repugnant and racism is evil.

    Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/politics/trump-condemns-charlottesville-attackers/index.html

    It help to actually know the facts before you comment on them.

    He said that 2 days after Charlottesville after so much backlash. He did not single out Neo-Nazis the first time. More racist comments/tweets are when he retweeted a tweet from BritainFirst (condemned by Theresa May), when he said Obama was a Muslim and born in Kenya with no basis, "Islam hates us" quote, "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best, They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists.", wanting to ban Muslims, saying Muslims in NJ cheered on 9/11 etc. Also, UN called his sh!thole comments racist. Learn history. 
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @Pogue

    Not singling out Neo-Nazis doesn't make you a Racist...period.  Sharing videos of Muslims beating a defenseless boy, destroying a statue of St. Mary and committing other crimes does not equate Islamophobia.  Anyone who's afraid of Islamist Extremists has every legitimate reason to be afraid of them.  Trump never said Obama was a Muslim, he stated that he might be...this is a misquote but again...it helps Trump when people do these kinds of things.  Every time someone spreads nasty rumors about Trump and he comes out on top...it makes all his opposition look bad, it makes CNN look bad, it makes MSNBC look bad, it makes the left look bad and THAT'S what's going to get him re-elected.  When you run for office and your opposition has a clear history of using underhanded lies and deceit in an attempt to win...it's easy to come out on top.  

    And just for the record...Mexico IS sending people with lots of problems, they ARE sending drugs, crime, their Rapists ARE coming over here.  

    And as far as Trump's "Sh!thole" comment, everyone that's been asked about that comment has stated that they never heard the president say those words, everyone except Durbin.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/sen-cotton-says-he-did-not-hear-vulgar-comments-from-trump/

    This is going to be hilarious when Trump lets this rumor fly wildly and lets it rile up the entire country only to let it come out much later that it never happened.  Trump has continuously left breadcrumbs around in the past and allowed amazing fake news like CNN to make leaps and bounds with assumptions only to spring it on them later that none of it actually happened...all-the-while looking great and making the left look like crackpots.
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Pogue said:
    He said that 2 days after Charlottesville after so much backlash. He did not single out Neo-Nazis the first time.
    It makes no difference that he waited until the situation clarified itself, the plain fact is that he called racism "evil", and neo-nazis "repugnant". 

    More racist comments/tweets are when he retweeted a tweet from BritainFirst (condemned by Theresa May), when he said Obama was a Muslim and born in Kenya with no basis, "Islam hates us" quote,
    What race is "Muslim"?  I didn't realize the religion had racial requirements, do tell.

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best, They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists.",
    That statement (incomplete as it is) isn't racist, it's reality, unless you're calling reality racist.

    Trump Is Right About Mexican Illegals Committing Crimes

    Also, UN called his sh!thole comments racist. Learn history.
    That the UN would even make a statement about a closed-door comment that has been denied by everyone present but a single partisan political opportunist does nothing more than illustrate their irrelevance.  While in all likelihood Durbin was, um, incorrect about what Trump actually said, Trump no doubt had some harsh words about Haiti and most African nations.  If you want to call that racist, than you really do think reality is racist.



    Oakchairbc
  • OakchairbcGeorge_Horse
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @Pogue

    Not singling out Neo-Nazis doesn't make you a Racist...period.  Sharing videos of Muslims beating a defenseless boy, destroying a statue of St. Mary and committing other crimes does not equate Islamophobia.  Anyone who's afraid of Islamist Extremists has every legitimate reason to be afraid of them.  Trump never said Obama was a Muslim, he stated that he might be...this is a misquote but again...it helps Trump when people do these kinds of things.  Every time someone spreads nasty rumors about Trump and he comes out on top...it makes all his opposition look bad, it makes CNN look bad, it makes MSNBC look bad, it makes the left look bad and THAT'S what's going to get him re-elected.  When you run for office and your opposition has a clear history of using underhanded lies and deceit in an attempt to win...it's easy to come out on top.  

    And just for the record...Mexico IS sending people with lots of problems, they ARE sending drugs, crime, their Rapists ARE coming over here.  
    HE CALLED NEO-NAZIS FINE PEOPLE. THE SECOND TIME HE CONDEMNED THEM. HE RETWEETED IT FROM BRITAINFIRST, A HATE GROUP. THE TWEET WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANTI-IMMIGRANT and ISLAMOPHOBIC. According to local media, the boy was not an immigrant nor Muslim. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-britain-first-retweet-muslim-migrants-jayda-fransen-deputy-leader-a8082001.html). He said that he might be a Muslim with no evidence and said he was from Kenya with no evidence.AS FOR THE MEXICO ONE, he generalized and that was a prejudice which is racist. 

    Vaulk said:
    @Pogue
    And as far as Trump's "Sh!thole" comment, everyone that's been asked about that comment has stated that they never heard the president say those words, everyone except Durbin.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/sen-cotton-says-he-did-not-hear-vulgar-comments-from-trump/
    Actually, Lyndsy Gram confirmed it and other senators said he said sh!thouse countries. Same intent.
    Oakchairbc
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • CYDdharta said:
    Pogue said:
    He said that 2 days after Charlottesville after so much backlash. He did not single out Neo-Nazis the first time.
    It makes no difference that he waited until the situation clarified itself, the plain fact is that he called racism "evil", and neo-nazis "repugnant". 

    More racist comments/tweets are when he retweeted a tweet from BritainFirst (condemned by Theresa May), when he said Obama was a Muslim and born in Kenya with no basis, "Islam hates us" quote,
    What race is "Muslim"?  I didn't realize the religion had racial requirements, do tell.

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best, They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists.",
    That statement (incomplete as it is) isn't racist, it's reality, unless you're calling reality racist.

    Trump Is Right About Mexican Illegals Committing Crimes



    The situation clarified? We knew what happened. Nazi drove his car into a crowd of protesters who were protesting the protest to not remove the statue of General Lee (the statue is racist). He killed 1 person. Not hard to condemn Nazis. It is hard, however, to say they are fine people (do not deny, he did). 

    Racism is "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity." Ethnicity is "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Ethnicity is belief. Religion is part of Ethnicity. It is racist. Also, did not disprove Kenya and why that is not racist. 

    Like I said before, it is a generalization and prejudice. Not all of them are that. He said after that, I assume some are good people after he said that racist part to literally cover him. 

    Many more points you have to disprove. 
    Oakchairbc
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Pogue said:
    HE CALLED NEO-NAZIS FINE PEOPLE. THE SECOND TIME HE CONDEMNED THEM. HE RETWEETED IT FROM BRITAINFIRST, A HATE GROUP. THE TWEET WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANTI-IMMIGRANT and ISLAMOPHOBIC. According to local media, the boy was not an immigrant nor Muslim. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-britain-first-retweet-muslim-migrants-jayda-fransen-deputy-leader-a8082001.html). He said that he might be a Muslim with no evidence and said he was from Kenya with no evidence.AS FOR THE MEXICO ONE, he generalized and that was a prejudice which is racist.
    Trump NEVER UTTERED THE WORDS "neo-nazis are fine people".  IN FACT HE SAID THE OPPOSITE!!!  He said, and I quote "Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans".

    Actually, Lyndsy Gram confirmed it and other senators said he said sh!thouse countries. Same intent.
    He did?!? 

    Lindsey Graham: 'I said my piece' to Trump. But senator doesn't address 'shithole countries' comment

    Graham NEVER says Trump actually said "shithole countries".  BTW, what race are Africans, Haitians and El Salvadorans collectively?
    Oakchairbc
  • Pogue said:

    The situation clarified? We knew what happened. Nazi drove his car into a crowd of protesters who were protesting the protest to not remove the statue of General Lee (the statue is racist). He killed 1 person. Not hard to condemn Nazis. It is hard, however, to say they are fine people (do not deny, he did). 

    We also know Antifa and Black Lives Matter showed up itching for a fight.  Once again Trump NEVER SAID NEO-NAZIS ARE FINE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!  Feel free to post an actual quote where he said that or admit you're lying.  What he actually did say is that neo-Nazis are repugnant.


    Racism is "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity." Ethnicity is "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Ethnicity is belief. Religion is part of Ethnicity. It is racist. Also, did not disprove Kenya and why that is not racist. 

    Like I said before, it is a generalization and prejudice. Not all of them are that. He said after that, I assume some are good people after he said that racist part to literally cover him. 

    Many more points you have to disprove.

    Ethnicity - The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ethnicity


    While many ethnic groups share a religion, religion in and of itself is not a requirement to be a member of an ethnic group.  Religion and ethnicity are separate traits.

    As far as Obama being from Kenya, put the blame for that misunderstanding where it belongs, with Obama, his literary agent and Hillary Clinton.  Regardless, I fail to see how that illustrates racism, unless you're a racist.  Are you a racist?  Do you think people born in Kenya are substandard?


    I don't have anything to prove, or disprove.  You're making the claim, you have the burden of proof, which you have thus far failed miserably to to meet.
    Oakchairbc
  • @Oakchairbc

    And debateisland.com just turned into the comment section of Facebook.  Congratulations, Ad Hominem attacks are apparently acceptable in lieu of legitimate debate arguments.
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk

    Not an ad hominem.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    An ad hominem is an argument based on insults/personal attacks, not one that simply includes insults or personal attacks.

    Where X is a piece of reasoning and Y is an insult, "You did X therefore you are Y" is not an ad hominem attack. Meanwhile "you are Y" without an X is an ad hominem.

    Oakchairbc gave a simple but clear rationale: if you defend racist arguments you are racist. You could counter this by arguing it isn't racist to do so or that the arguments you defended weren't racist in the first place or that they were racist but you never defended them. Simply ignoring the point and calling it as hominem is illegitimate though as he did have an argument he was basing his insults on.
    Oakchairbc
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1207 Pts
    edited January 2018
    Ampersand said:
    @Vaulk

    Not an ad hominem.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    An ad hominem is an argument based on insults/personal attacks, not one that simply includes insults or personal attacks.

    Where X is a piece of reasoning and Y is an insult, "You did X therefore you are Y" is not an ad hominem attack. Meanwhile "you are Y" without an X is an ad hominem.

    Oakchairbc gave a simple but clear rationale: if you defend racist arguments you are racist. You could counter this by arguing it isn't racist to do so or that the arguments you defended weren't racist in the first place or that they were racist but you never defended them. Simply ignoring the point and calling it as hominem is illegitimate though as he did have an argument he was basing his insults on.

    No one has defended racist arguments.  I'm not sure what book you're using that calling someone a twat waffle isn't a personal attack, but I think it's been revised.  Lying about what someone said and personal attacks,
    I would agree with you only in that @Oakchairbc's comments don't even rise to the level of a logic fallacy.  As usual, his posts are fact-free and wonderfully devoid of logic.
    Oakchairbc
  • @CYDdharta

    Please re-read my post. I do not mention that he did not make personal attacks and in fact I implied that he did, hence "An ad hominem is an argument based on insults/personal attacks, not one that simply includes insults or personal attacks." Your criticism is inapplicable.

    The issue is that a post isn't automatically an ad hominem attack just because it contains a personal attack. Going by the actual criteria it is not an ad hominem attack as explained in my previous post.

    If no-one has defended racist arguments as you claim, that is the point Vaulk should have argued rather than making false as hominem claims.
  • VaulkVaulk 667 Pts
    edited January 2018
    @Ampersand

    Yea I'm afraid calling someone a twat waffle is indefensible as an Ad Hominem attack and just because he removed the statement...doesn't mean it didn't happen.  That ideology doesn't pass the common sense test.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    The qualification for an Ad Hominem Fallacy does not REQUIRE the BASIS of your argument to be an attack on someone's character, only that you attack someone's character.  Even your wiki link states 

    "argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

    However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".

    The simple fact that he did both (Attacked my character AND rebutted the argument) does NOT mean it wasn't an Ad Hominem Fallacy.  Resorting to fits of childish insults is beneath us and we can kindly move on from here and move past this in order to preserve the debating method.

    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CYDdharta said:
    Pogue said:
    HE CALLED NEO-NAZIS FINE PEOPLE. THE SECOND TIME HE CONDEMNED THEM. HE RETWEETED IT FROM BRITAINFIRST, A HATE GROUP. THE TWEET WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANTI-IMMIGRANT and ISLAMOPHOBIC. According to local media, the boy was not an immigrant nor Muslim. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-britain-first-retweet-muslim-migrants-jayda-fransen-deputy-leader-a8082001.html). He said that he might be a Muslim with no evidence and said he was from Kenya with no evidence.AS FOR THE MEXICO ONE, he generalized and that was a prejudice which is racist.
    Trump NEVER UTTERED THE WORDS "neo-nazis are fine people".  IN FACT HE SAID THE OPPOSITE!!!  He said, and I quote "Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans".

    Actually, Lyndsy Gram confirmed it and other senators said he said sh!thouse countries. Same intent.
    He did?!? 

    Lindsey Graham: 'I said my piece' to Trump. But senator doesn't address 'shithole countries' comment

    Graham NEVER says Trump actually said "shithole countries".  BTW, what race are Africans, Haitians and El Salvadorans collectively?
    You are very ignorant. He said there were fine people on BOTH sides. One side had neo-nazis and white supremacists. Do you get it now? He said they are basically correct. Trump might have said sh!thouse countries instead of sh!thole but still carries the same meaning. I did not bring up El Salvadorans.
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • CYDdharta said:
    Pogue said:

    The situation clarified? We knew what happened. Nazi drove his car into a crowd of protesters who were protesting the protest to not remove the statue of General Lee (the statue is racist). He killed 1 person. Not hard to condemn Nazis. It is hard, however, to say they are fine people (do not deny, he did). 

    We also know Antifa and Black Lives Matter showed up itching for a fight.  Once again Trump NEVER SAID NEO-NAZIS ARE FINE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!  Feel free to post an actual quote where he said that or admit you're lying.  What he actually did say is that neo-Nazis are repugnant.
    Stated why he said neo-nazis are fine people. What evidence do you have that they were itching for a fight? The counter-protesters were protesting the protests to take down the General Lee monument (he, Trump, doesn't want them taken down). Again he said that 2 days later. 

    CYDdharta said:
    Racism is "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity." Ethnicity is "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Ethnicity is belief. Religion is part of Ethnicity. It is racist. Also, did not disprove Kenya and why that is not racist. 

    Like I said before, it is a generalization and prejudice. Not all of them are that. He said after that, I assume some are good people after he said that racist part to literally cover him. 

    Many more points you have to disprove.

    Ethnicity - The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ethnicity


    While many ethnic groups share a religion, religion in and of itself is not a requirement to be a member of an ethnic group.  Religion and ethnicity are separate traits.
    Fair enough


    CYDdharta said:
    As far as Obama being from Kenya, put the blame for that misunderstanding where it belongs, with Obama, his literary agent and Hillary Clinton.  Regardless, I fail to see how that illustrates racism, unless you're a racist.  Are you a racist?  Do you think people born in Kenya are substandard?
    What about when he brought it back up (Trump) a year after he released it. (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/a-wiretap-accusation-and-the-echo-of-birtherism/518643/) I never brought up anything that implies I am racist (not racist "least racist person" you have ever debated). Do not turn this around with a debate if I am racist. No, I do not think they are substandard. 


    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • PoguePogue 554 Pts
    edited January 2018
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @CYDdharta reminds me of an interesting point, how racist or at least prejudice does it appears to make ignorant insinuations that practicing a particular religion must indicate one's ethnicity?  If I said "All Muslims are Arab" or "All Africans are Black"...what would that say about my character? 

    That said, unless every person on one side was a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist, I fail to see how "There were good people on both sides" is inaccurate or supportive of Neo Nazis.

    If two groups of people showed up to demonstrate and one group was 50% Neo-Nazi.......scratch that, one side is 75% Neo-Nazi but there's 25% regular people in that group who don't affiliate with Neo-Nazis but also oppose the other group...is saying that there were good people on both sides supportive of Neo-Nazis necessarily?  The simple answer is no.  Trump has cast down white supremacists and just because someone holds a personal opinion that he should have done it more or more specifically...at a particular point and time is irrelevant to whether or not Trump holds any Racist ideals.  

    Let's get objective here, my opinion is irrelevant to whether or not there is any proof of Trump being a Racist.  That said, I have not seen any proof or any incriminating evidence of Racism.  All I've seen is stretched out accusations painted with a broad brushstroke in order to somehow SUGGEST Racism.
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @Ampersand

    Yea I'm afraid calling someone a twat waffle is indefensible as an Ad Hominem attack and just because he removed the statement...doesn't mean it didn't happen.  That ideology doesn't pass the common sense test.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    The qualification for an Ad Hominem Fallacy does not REQUIRE the BASIS of your argument to be an attack on someone's character, only that you attack someone's character.  Even your wiki link states 

    "argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

    However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".

    The simple fact that he did both (Attacked my character AND rebutted the argument) does NOT mean it wasn't an Ad Hominem Fallacy.  Resorting to fits of childish insults is beneath us and we can kindly move on from here and move past this in order to preserve the debating method.

    Please pay attention to the portion of the quote you chose not to bold, e.g. "whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument".

    Did he attempt to rebut your argument with personal attacks or did he attempt to rebut your argument with a simple counter-argument that defence of racism = racist and then also insult you? The latter - so it does not meet the criteria for being an ad hominem attack as explained and as your own sources back up.

    Therefore the fact that offered a rebuttal of your argument in a manner which was separate from the personal attacks does, by very definition, mean it wasn't an ad hominem. You may choose to claim that insults are beneath people and it is not conductive to a good debating environment, but that is a separate issue from your false claim of it being an ad hominem.
    Oakchairbc
  • VaulkVaulk 667 Pts
    edited January 2018
    @Ampersand

    I may not have cited anything as sound as wiki for my reference of Ad Hominem, however I can offer you several others than will not support your statement:

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
    https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/
    http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad hominem

    When people think of “arguments,” often their first thought is of shouting matches riddled with personal attacks. Ironically, personal attacks run contrary to rational arguments. In logic and rhetoric, personal attacks are called ad hominemsAd hominem is Latin for “against the man.” Instead of advancing good sound reasoning, ad hominems replace logical argumentation with attack-language unrelated to the truth of the matter.

    Defending someone who, during a debate, called someone a "Twat Waffle" speaks volumes about the person putting up the defense.  If you truly cannot see how making statements like his are fallacious regardless of what preceded or followed then my arguments will be lost on you and I formally recognize your defense of using that type of language as acceptable as you certainly haven't condemned it...not once.
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Pogue said:
    You are very ignorant. He said there were fine people on BOTH sides. One side had neo-nazis and white supremacists. Do you get it now? He said they are basically correct. .
    One side had people who wanted the statues to be kept where they were, the other side wanted the statues removed.  Trump was right, there were good people on both sides;

    “Good people can go to Charlottesville,” said Michelle Piercy, a night shift worker at a Wichita, Kan., retirement home, who drove all night with a conservative group that opposed the planned removal of a statue of the Confederate general Robert E. Lee.

    After listening to Mr. Trump on Tuesday, she said it was as if he had channeled her and her friends — all gun-loving defenders of free speech, she said, who had no interest in standing with Nazis or white supremacists: “It’s almost like he talked to one of our people.”Conservatives like Ms. Piercy, who have grown only more emboldened after Charlottesville, believe that the political and media elite hold them and Mr. Trump to a harsh double standard that demands they answer for the sins of a radical, racist fringe. They largely accept Mr. Trump’s contention that these same forces are using Charlottesville as an excuse to undermine his presidency, and by extension, their vote.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/us/politics/trump-republicans-race.html?smid=tw-share&mtrref=undefined&gwh=5EFC7C2072B7A9EFBF30691D07E11340&gwt=pay

    As for antifa;

    The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding "antifa" beating white nationalists being led out of the park
    https://www.dailywire.com/news/19673/ny-times-reporter-admits-antifa-protesters-james-barrett



    Trump might have said sh!thouse countries instead of sh!thole but still carries the same meaning. I did not bring up El Salvadorans

    Once again, even if that's what Trump said, and that's doubtful, it isn't racism, it's reality.  And if you had been paying attention, you would have known El Salvador was among the countries being discussed.  So once again, what race are Africans, Haitians and El Salvadorans collectively?

    Oakchairbc
  • Pogue said:

    What about when he brought it back up (Trump) a year after he released it. (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/a-wiretap-accusation-and-the-echo-of-birtherism/518643/) I never brought up anything that implies I am racist (not racist "least racist person" you have ever debated). Do not turn this around with a debate if I am racist. No, I do not think they are substandard.
    Trump never said Kenyans were substandard, he never even implied that.  Trump's only point was that, if true, Obama wasn't native-born and was thus ineligible to hold the office of POTUS.  But your bringing up Obama's birth-place location as an example of racism is in itself an example of racism.  To say that Obama being born in Kenya is racist assumes Kenyans are less capable than others.  It is a clear example of racism.
    Oakchairbc
  • I'm afraid the logic is sound there, suggesting that the statement "Obama was born in Kenya" is racist implies that there's something inherently degrading about being Kenyan...and is therefor a racist statement itself.

    So I'm curious, @Pogue, what exactly is insulting about suggesting that someone's Kenyan?  Is it because a majority of them are Black?  
    Oakchairbc
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @Ampersand

    I may not have cited anything as sound as wiki for my reference of Ad Hominem, however I can offer you several others than will not support your statement:

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
    https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/
    http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad hominem

    When people think of “arguments,” often their first thought is of shouting matches riddled with personal attacks. Ironically, personal attacks run contrary to rational arguments. In logic and rhetoric, personal attacks are called ad hominemsAd hominem is Latin for “against the man.” Instead of advancing good sound reasoning, ad hominems replace logical argumentation with attack-language unrelated to the truth of the matter.

    Defending someone who, during a debate, called someone a "Twat Waffle" speaks volumes about the person putting up the defense.  If you truly cannot see how making statements like his are fallacious regardless of what preceded or followed then my arguments will be lost on you and I formally recognize your defense of using that type of language as acceptable as you certainly haven't condemned it...not once.
    Citing less relevant links which have no sources to support them is not an effective counter. Bad evidence does not become right because there is more of it.

    But even then one of your links is ambiguous and could be argued either way while the other two support me.

    https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

    "More specifically, ad hominems are a fallacy of relevance where someone rejects or criticizes another person’s view on the basis of personal characteristics, background, physical appearance, or other features irrelevant to the argument at issue."

    He did not dismiss your argument because you were a racist, he gave a rationale why you were a racist (e.g. defending racist comments). Hence according to your source not an ad hominem.

    "This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself."

    He did not attack you rather than the idea (or statement in this case), he attacked the statement which then lead him to conclude you were racist. Hence again it is not an ad hominem.

    Also your claim is wrong, ad hominem is Latin for "towards the man" or "of the man" - not against the man. I can reference a Latin dictionary if you exist but can't be bothered at the moment.

    If you have issues with him calling you a twat waffle, feel free to object yourself as I feel no need to white knight you. If you'd wanted to stop communicating with him because he insulted you - fine. You wanted to take him to task for insulting you and lowering the tone of the debate - go ahead. My pet peeve however is people who misuse fallacies to avoid actually responding to arguments and that's you.
    OakchairbcPogue
  • VaulkVaulk 667 Pts
    edited January 2018
    @Oakchairbc

    Casting shame is not crying I'm afraid, and neither is calling a spade a spade.  Misrepresenting my argument to be something that it's not does not detract from your personal attacks on my character and yet you continue to degrade the debating process here in lieu of offering a logical argument either for or against the topic of this debate.  We CAN keep this civil I assure you, it's quite possible to refrain from personal attacks and insults as I've offered you none..which leads me to wonder what exactly it is that I did to deserve your insults besides disagreeing with you while explaining why.

    If you're truly insulted that I don't agree with you then I'm prepared to apologize for any perceived wrongdoing so that we can move past the insults and attacks on character.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vault is a racist crying because he’s called a twat waffle and other names. Raise your hand if you’re a tool.
  • VaulkVaulk 667 Pts
    edited January 2018
    @Oakchairbc

    That was a personal attack, so you automatically lose the argument. Sorry. If you'd like to re-offer an argument without the personal attack then you may still convince me, but otherwise... Thanks for the discussion, and I'll take my win and go home.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Oakchairbc
    Why are all your arguments insults? Please stop and debate without insulting @Vaulk
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • I don't think Trump was being racist, but I do think his comment was unnecessary. I just think he was being an asshole. 
  • @Fascism

    Agreed wholly.  Trump is undoubtedly an A$$hole, he's a jerk, he's completely inappropriate and callous...and that's alot of the reason why people voted for him.  Look at our recent presidential history, candidates get up in front of the camera and make promises that (Are easily identified) don't offend anyone no matter what your stance is.  Consider the "Pro choice" stance...a BS position most likely created by a politician in an attempt to avoid saying "I think killing babies is wrong".  So Trump comes along and sounds angry, angry at the U.S. giving away billions, angry at our economy, angry at the recession, he's just angry...and U.S. Citizens like angry.  Combine everything else you can say positive about the guy and you've got the answer as to why he won the election.
    Fascism
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


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