The Christian God is real

Dee

@someone234

Well yippee for you .......

BaconToes

with_all_humility said:
We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought.

Who's image was God created from?

someone234

@BaconToes Fate's Ego is God.

Pogue

with_all_humility said:

Pogue said:

anonymousdebater said:

@Pogue ;

Free Will => Choice to Do Evil
given that evil exists

No. God could have made is to not have that temptation and want to do (it is in our DNA). So no.

with_all_humility said:

Psa 7:14 Behold, the wicked man conceives evil and is pregnant with mischief and gives birth to lies.

@anonymousdebater

No. God could have made is to not have that temptation and want to do (it is in our DNA). So no.

We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought. It is free will that allowed Adam & Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge. Jesus's brother James also tells us...

James 1.2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

9 Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, 10 and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[1]

[1] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jas 1:2–18). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

@Pogue; @anonymousdebater

You are assuming the conclusion. You said he created us so he is real. That is assuming the conclusion. We could still do the evil bit if he made it, he could have made it so that we do not want to do evil or have evil intentions. Those quotes from a changing Bible are worthless

with_all_humility

Pogue said:

with_all_humility said:

Pogue said:

anonymousdebater said:

@Pogue ;

Free Will => Choice to Do Evil
given that evil exists

No. God could have made is to not have that temptation and want to do (it is in our DNA). So no.

with_all_humility said:

Psa 7:14 Behold, the wicked man conceives evil and is pregnant with mischief and gives birth to lies.

@anonymousdebater

No. God could have made is to not have that temptation and want to do (it is in our DNA). So no.

We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought. It is free will that allowed Adam & Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge. Jesus's brother James also tells us...

James 1.2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

9 Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, 10 and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[1]

[1] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jas 1:2–18). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

@Pogue; @anonymousdebater

You are assuming the conclusion. You said he created us so he is real. That is assuming the conclusion. We could still do the evil bit if he made it, he could have made it so that we do not want to do evil or have evil intentions. Those quotes from a changing Bible are worthless

The question in this string was God created evil, I gave you evidence from the testimony of Bible that says God is not the author/creator of evil; that is all. I was not stating or defending the position that God is real. Why suggest such a conjecture?

Those quotes from a changing Bible are worthless? That is an option! What is your evidence for that it is worthless other than your option? Notice, In my argument above, I did not give you an opinion, I just let the Bible speak for itself. No, if you have an issue with the Bible, let's see some evidence that is not a historical document, not that I don't believe it to be true. And saying that written communication is the worst form of communication, no it is not, we use it all the time. Our very conversation is written communication. Your scientist use written communication to convey their ideas. So, no written communication does not mean bad communication. The worst form of communication sometimes is verbal, because you get into he said she said. Written communication provides a historical record. In fact, go look at the Library of Congress and see how much they rely on written communication.

with_all_humility

The problem with debating someone who wants evidence for the existence God the atheist/skeptic demands direct evidence. However, God does not work in a direct physical word. Therefore the evidence for God exists is in circumstantial evidence. Now for those who don't believe in circumstantial evidence, go and ask your local police dept or your local district attorney's office.

Circumstantial evidence is evidence of facts from which inferences or can be drawn.

Here is a post to lawyers on if a person can be convicted on circumstantial evidence

Is circumstantial evidence enough to convict someone at trial

If someone is accused of stealing money and all they have is circumstantial evidence.
no eyewitnesses, no video footage or hard evidence, is it enough for the court/jury to find the person guilty at trial?

Yes. Circumstantial evidence can be enough to convict someone. The question to the jury will do the State prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt? It will come down to what is the actual evidence and can there be interpretations of the evidence other than that the accused committed a crime. The defense attorney will likely question the State's witnesses about other possible interpretations of the evidence. What those questions will be will depend on the exact nature of the evidence. (Ken Underwood, Criminal Lawer)
Yes. One can easily imagine a set of circumstances in which there is no direct evidence of a theft but evidence of access to the money, opportunity to take it and signs of new found wealth that point to a particular person. It may be that the state cannot convince a jury of the accused's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but I would guess most attorneys on this site can tell at least one story in which a defendant was convicted solely on circumstantial evidence...(Christopher A Swaby, Criminal Attorney)

The trial of Scott Peterson for the murders of his wife Laci and their unborn child Conner is a classic example of a prosecution based almost solely on circumstantial evidence, rather than direct evidence.

Now the question is why does the atheist demand direct evidence for God (knowing it can't be obtained), yet every day our legal system relies on circumstantial evidence to convict a criminal. It is rear for a criminal case to have direct evidence for a conviction.

Base upon the atheist/skeptic's demands for direct evidence, should our court system then only be allowed to convict based upon direct evidence only?

with_all_humility

Accidental post, sorry

with_all_humility

Dee said:

@with_all_humility

God as depicted in the Bible is evil his intentions are for man to do evil ,

Evil God allows good to exist only so that greater evil may be achieved
Evil God likes evil best when we freely choose it, but allowing us free will means that some people may choose good
Evil God works in mysterious ways

No, the God depicted in the Bible is not evil. It is clearly defined in the Bible where evil comes from I showed you over on you debate page. You have a bias and pull verses out of context to attempt to justify your position. All your conjectures are false, you have not evidence other than your opinion.

with_all_humility

BaconToes said:

with_all_humility said:
We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought.

Who's image was God created from?

You are pulling my statement out of context, and making a pretext. I was not defending the position of is God real, I was reinforcing as a statement that concluded "evil comes from the free will of man. Go back and read the whole position. As for we were created in God image, that was a paraphrase of Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So I did not make it up. The question in the string that was debating "does God create evil?" The very nature of the question establishes God existence, so I did not have to establish a defense for His existence. I only had to reinforce that God does not create evil.

Dee

@with_all_humility

No, the God depicted in the Bible is not evil. It is clearly defined in the Bible where evil comes from I showed you over on you debate page. You have a bias and pull verses out of context to attempt to justify your position. All your conjectures are false, you have not evidence other than your opinion.

Yes , the God depicted in the Bible is not good . It is clearly defined in the Bible where good comes from I showed you over on you debate page. You have a bias and pull verses out of context to attempt to justify your position. All your conjectures are false, you have not evidence other than your opinion.

with_all_humility

Ha Ha, you are funny! Should I use that tactic to you?

@Dee

Dee

@with_all_humility

Ha Ha, you are funny! Should I use that tactic to you?

My position regarding an evil god is perfectly as good as the reverse , so basically you’re laughing at how illogical your whole argument is , I agree

with_all_humility

I was chuckling because the argument only changed a few words around and then was presented as an evidence of God's evilness, it's a fallacious argument. It similar to identity theft.

@Dee

someone234

Christian God is the godfather to the mafia of all beings. Yes, he's evil but the enemies are led by a guy who relishes in your agony so which side do we want to take?

God is the good villain. He's a villain but is the least evil one. Comprehend it

Evidence

@Judaism

Judaism said:

@with_all_humility

Sorry I wasn't responding lately, we had a death in the family.

The rabbi was not a prophet, rabbi simply means teacher. He was, by all accounts, given divine revelation.

My condolences my friend, sorry to hear that.

Evidence

Dee said:

@someone234

You want God to be evil because you are a very, very sick individual

i dont believe in god I’m demonstrating how weak the good god argument is , the sick one is an individual who can defend the immorality of the Bible

and I know this because of the things you say on other debates here but no Dee, no he won't forgive you.

I don’t believe in ghosts

You think it's funny to joke about killing people en masse,

No , I think it’s funny and tragic you enjoy watching people starve slowly to death without help of release

you think you can just starve a dog for some art work and tautn it with biscuits as it's tied to a post and salivating begging you for food and drink.

I don’t think any such thing and you’re making ridiculous assumptions based on nothing as I merely posted up a debate topic of which the background story is fascinating as is demonstrated by the “ jump the gun “ herd mentality displayed by you and others regarding the topic

You also, from , have shown yourself to totally lack the capacity to empathise with anything or anyone and only align yourself with very high-conflict oriented conservatives.

Interesting , Americans call me Liberal , conservative , socialist , fascist , communist and neo Nazi , actually I’m amused as I love people /humanity and actually have just hosted a charity drive to bring aid to Syrian refugees , but hey go ahead and stick another label on me

@Dee

@someone234
You want God to be evil because you are a very, very sick individual
Dee said:
i dont believe in god I’m demonstrating how weak the good god argument is , the sick one is an individual who can defend the immorality of the Bible -

Oooh, I love a good Hitchslap, I'll even turn the other cheek, just watch my spin round-back hand, cause I know Karati and his whole family. I'll come down on your knee with my nose so fast, you won't know what hit you!?

OK, .. now that I gut that out of my system, let's get serious. I'll take you on with the "good God argument", if you dare Mr. Hitchens!?

Evidence

with_all_humility said:

BaconToes said:

with_all_humility said:
We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought.

Who's image was God created from?

You are pulling my statement out of context, and making a pretext. I was not defending the position of is God real, I was reinforcing as a statement that concluded "evil comes from the free will of man. Go back and read the whole position. As for we were created in God image, that was a paraphrase of Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So I did not make it up. The question in the string that was debating "does God create evil?" The very nature of the question establishes God existence, so I did not have to establish a defense for His existence. I only had to reinforce that God does not create evil.

Wait my friend @with_all_humility but God DID create evil:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Dee

@with_all_humility

I was chuckling because the argument only changed a few words around and then was presented as an evidence of God's evilness, it's a fallacious argument. It similar to identity theft.

I was chuckling because your argument only changed a few words around and then was presented as an evidence of God's goodness , it's a fallacious argument. It similar to identity theft.

Dee

@Evidence

Hello to you as well , before we start I take it you’re American not being rude but tell me why are so many of yours so openly aggressive and hostile , like what exactly is it you want ?

You stated ......
Oooh, I love a good Hitchslap, I'll even turn the other cheek, just watch my spin round-back hand, cause I know Karati and his whole family. I'll come down on your knee with my nose so fast, you won't know what hit you!?

OK, .. now that I gut that out of my system, let's get serious.

I'll take you on with the "good God argument", if you dare Mr. Hitchens!?

I’m not “ Mr Hitchens “ and if you got a good god argument well post a debate topic up but to be honest if you’re another troll I’m not playing

Incidentally if you had something meaningful to say why didn’t you attempt a rebuttal of my claims in response to this part of the debate ?

BaconToes

@anonymousdebater
You marked my argument as a fallacy, may I ask you what fallacy it is?
I was asking a question, not stating a statement,

with_all_humility

BaconToes said:

anonymousdebater said:

@BaconToes ;
@Pogue

1) God is eternal, so he was never created.
2) God created a flood, so what?
3) God probably gave Noah a lot of instructions.
4) God could fit them all in if he wanted to. Plus, there were only two of each, and likely not every species, rather every genus maybe.

Repost from the other debate
Noah's Ark (Hebrew: תיבת נח‎; Biblical Hebrew: Tevat Noaḥ) is the vessel in the Genesis flood narrative (Genesis chapters 6–9) by which God spares Noah, his family, and a remnant of all the world's animals from a world-engulfing flood.[1][2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark

A global flood as stated in the Bible would be devasting, affecting all animals and plants.
As this Rabbi stated:
"We have to appreciate that this was no ordinary boat. It measured 300-by-50 cubits, was bigger than a football field and contained over a million cubic feet of space!"
http://www.aish.com/atr/Noahs_Ark.html

Cubit is a measure of a unit used in the Bible. It is estimated to be about 18 inches for each cubit.
"So by converting biblical measurements, we end up with an ark that's 540 feet long, 37.5 feet high and 75 feet wide. Whether that's large enough to carry two of each species is a question for theologians, science fiction writers, or physicists who specialize in quantum state mechanics."
https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-measurements-116678
540x37.5x75 is about 1518750 ft^3 cubic feet.

Genesis 6:19–20:
‘And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come into you to keep them alive.’
Everything of flesh, excluding tiny insects and aquatic animals
https://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Here are some of the problems of the Genesis Flood.

Breeding- Some animals will not breed with each other, and there is no way to test if two animals can breed with each other
Building the Ark- Noah would have to go through decades of learning how to build the boat, how to steer it, how to fix problems aboard a ship etc. Building a ship that long ago would be a near-impossible feat. As https://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark stated:"Before he could even contemplate such a project, Noah would have needed a thorough education in naval architecture and in fields that would not arise for thousands of years such as physics, calculus, mechanics, and structural analysis. There was no shipbuilding tradition behind him, no experienced craftspeople to offer advice. Where did he learn the framing procedure for such a Brobdingnagian structure? How could he anticipate the effects of roll, pitch, yaw, and slamming in a rough sea? How did he solve the differential equations for bending moment, torque, and shear stress?"
Waste- Animals need to defecate. How would Noah clean it up and dispose of it?
Water and Food- In order to survive "about one year" long journey on the Ark, the animal would need a large quantity of food and water. https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/how-long-did-the-flood-last
Knowledge of Animals- Noah would also have to know the size of all animals he would place in the ark. He would need to have specially made cages for different types of animals. The cages would also need to be unbreakable for
Aquatic animals and small insect can apparently survive according to the bible. Several types of fish can only inhabit one type of water. Some can only live in salt water or fresh water. Some can only live in clear water while other can only live in dark water. The salinity of the ocean would be affected. While the Bible claims that some freshwater fish could live in the "gradual" change in salinity, they will shrivel up and die. This goes on to show how the bible is misinformed and continuously giving false information.
Plants are apparently stored by seeds to be either held in the ark or will survive on their own after the flood. In fact, seeds will not survive underwater for a year. For a seed to be dormant, there need to be specific conditions like tempurtature, water, and light. The changing salinity in the water can affect seed dormancy. Also, simple forms of dormancy are short in duration. For a seed to be dormant for a year, there must be specific requirements, like dry and cool places.

In conclusion, Noah's Ark is an impossible feat. It would require millions of divine intervention. If this "God" really wanted to wash away all the evil in the world, why not just place all the animals in a magical boat floating up to heaven? For dramatic measures that had to make up a great flood.

Problem 1: Is a non-issue, for the world is repopulated with animals and therefore all the animals bread.

Problem 2: Bad logic, you are comparing today's standards to that of the time of Noah. We are talking in context of a God, the God. Let's look at what Christ taught, Mar 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." Noah would have had approximately 100 years to build and make preparations. (Gen 5:32 After Noah was 500 years old, Gen 7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.)

3. Waste- Animals need to defecate. How would Noah clean it up and dispose of it? Estimated 12 tons of wet excreta produced daily (12 cubic meters) - comparable to intensive poultry house. Animal enclosures designed to minimize cleaning, Sloped, non-bedded floors, Slatted floors with manure pits. Thick sanitary bedding with no excreta removal. Manure gutters (animals can’t turnaround). Use of biological pest control (ducks, cats, mongooses). Vermicomposting (use of earthworms to biodegrade manure)

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/zg/ioc0wmvylxkc.png

4. Water and Food in order to survive "about one year" long journey on the Ark, the animal would need a large quantity of food and water.

Ark situation equivalent to intensive livestock confinement (not a zoo)
Temporary captivity, need only to survive in reasonable health
Animal housing: 46.8% of ark floor space
2.5 sq. meters for juvenile of largest animals
Food: 6-12% of interior ark volume
Compressed hay, dried fruit, meat, fish
Water: 9.4% of ark volume
Or could have collected rainwater

5. Aquatic animals and small insect can apparently survive according to the bible. Several types of fish can only inhabit one type of water. Some can only live in salt water or fresh water. Some can only live in clear water while other can only live in dark water. The salinity of the ocean would be affected. While the Bible claims that some freshwater fish could live in the "gradual" change in salinity, they will shrivel up and die. This goes on to show how the bible is misinformed and continuously giving false information.

5b. Plants are apparently stored by seeds to be either held in the ark or will survive on their own after the flood. In fact, seeds will not survive underwater for a year. For a seed to be dormant, there need to be specific conditions like tempurtature, water, and light. The changing salinity in the water can affect seed dormancy. Also, simple forms of dormancy are short in duration. For a seed to be dormant for a year, there must be specific requirements, like dry and cool places.

To say either why how aquatic animals and plants were handled or looked after would be purely speculation. The account in Genius in not about how to survive a global flood in the event it happens again. But it's about why God destroyed the earth and why Noah was chosen to carry on the remnant. The bible is not written like a science how to manual, it's simular to asking a an average person to build an entire house from a sketch on napkin. Where the bible is silent we can't say and it's not right to speculate.

I'm sure to nay sayer Noah's Ark is an utter impossibility, you should read the account of Moses building the Tabernacle, there Moses recorded in detail what go wanted, I would speculate Noah received the same level of instruction. Again, that is speculating, for we are not told for sure. The point of the account is the bad get's destroyed and good continues on.

TheeKnowing

[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord wil haue mercie on Iacob, and wil yet choose Israel, and set them in their owne land: and the strangers shalbe ioyned with them, and they shal cleaue to the house of Iacob.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall bee saued in the Lord with an euerlasting saluation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered, and said, I am not sent, but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to bee a Prince and a Sauiour, for to giue repentance to Israel, and forgiuenesse of sinnes.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelue gates, and at the gates twelue Angels, & names written thereon, which are the names of the twelue tribes of the children of Israel.

What will the other nations repent from? They have nothing to repent from. Sin is transgressing the law or God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

What nation was given the laws, statues, and commandments?

Psalms 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word vnto Iacob: his statutes and his iudgements vnto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his iudgements, they haue not knowen them. Praise yee the Lord.

So the nation of Israel was given the laws, statues, and commandments. So the other nations don't have salvation because there is nothing for them to repent from, due to the fact that sin is transgressing the law.

[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.

So what did Christ fulfill?

Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.

Christ fulfilled everything that was written in the Law of Moses, and everything that the Prophets prophesied of Him. That's what He fulfilled.

Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.

with_all_humility

Evidence said:

EmeryPearson said:

Odin is the true god. He predates the Christian concept of a deity. The Christian deity is merely a false idol created at a later date.

That's actually true, because the story of Odin does predate the Christian deity/deities, which is just 1,700 years old, created by Constantine and his Church of Satan.
Like you said, .. true "god", small 'g' and not our Creator, the Infinite and Eternal God. You mean Odin and his son Chris Hemsworth, .. right?

They should actually make a movie, the Christian god, creator of the Big-Banged universe the Pope, wielding Constantine's sword beheading early Believers who were of the Way, and here comes Chris Hemsworth as Thor wielding Odin's hammer fighting this evil child molesting and murdering horde. Hmm, I could actually see this!?

I bet Thor would loose, .. and end up bowing before the creator of the Big-bang Pope and kissing his ring, and the Pope patting Thor's head saying: "There you go 'precious', .. that's a good boy now, kiss the ring!"

"That's actually true, because the story of Odin does predate the Christian deity/deities, which is just 1,700 years old, created by Constantine and his Church of Satan."

Where do you get you source material and do you actually validate what it say is true?

Have you ever heard fo Josephus? He was Jew lived in the first century, but was not a Christian was not affiliated with the Bible at all. He was some what of a scholar and wrote several books concerning the history of the Jews during his life time.

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish priest at the time of the Jewish Revolt of A.D. 66. He was captured by the Romans, imprisoned, set free, and then retired to Rome where he wrote a history of the Jewish Revolt called the Jewish War. Later he wrote Antiquities as a history of the Jews. It is in Antiquities that he mentions Christ. The mention is called the "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.63-64; see below). Josephus was born in Jerusalem around A.D. 37. He died around the year 101.

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."[1]

What is interesting about Josephus is that he actually wrote of Jesus, not by direct witness, but based upon the testimony of others durning the time period. The Bible speaks of over 500 eyewitness to seeing Jesus after his death. The point being, the person named Jesus (who was rejected by the Jews of the time) back in the first century made such an impact on society of the time that a historian sought fit to make mention of him in his collection of writings.

So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

[1] Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.). See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html).

with_all_humility

Evidence said:

with_all_humility said:

BaconToes said:

with_all_humility said:
We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought.

Who's image was God created from?

You are pulling my statement out of context, and making a pretext. I was not defending the position of is God real, I was reinforcing as a statement that concluded "evil comes from the free will of man. Go back and read the whole position. As for we were created in God image, that was a paraphrase of Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So I did not make it up. The question in the string that was debating "does God create evil?" The very nature of the question establishes God existence, so I did not have to establish a defense for His existence. I only had to reinforce that God does not create evil.

Wait my friend @with_all_humility but God DID create evil:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

My friend, I have answered Isaiah on another post would be honored to illustrate true contextual meaning of the word "evil" in the KJV of the Bible.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" - Isaiah 45:7

This is a fallacy, your cherry-picking a verse out of context and never validated what it was actually saying. You also used the KJV that translated back in 1611, and last updated in 1885. While a good translation for it's time and still has some uses today. It uses words that we really don't associate with today English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version ;
Now, you have to be careful with Isaiah. He was a messianic prophet, meaning he foretold the coming of Jesus. A lot of what is recorded in Isaiah is figurative language, just the book of Daniel. The book of Revelation is very figurative as well, but it is considered apocalyptic language it is not meant to be taken literally. So let's look at Isaiah 45.7
If you goto the beginning of the chapter and start reading, we find "to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to lose the belts of kings" It's also good to know the time period we are in, which is about 150 years before the Babylonian empire comes in and conquers the nation of Israel, taking them into captivity. What the reference here to Cyrus is that through God's providence King Cyrus was going to take out some evil kings. It is not saying Cyrus is of piety or a demigod. God is just going to allow Cyrus to win a few wars, in order to do some "corporal punishment" to a few evil kings.
Without boring you with an in-depth description of the rest of the verse, in short, God is warning Israel to get their act together, or the will be punished

v45.7: I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.(NKJV)
God is just reminding Israel here in prophetic language that He has control over everything. Notice the New King James Version uses the word calamity

Albert Barnes a 19th Century Scholar states this concerning the phrase; And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has the power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.[1]

So like I said at the begin, the original argument or example is a fallacy. One has to be careful of taking a verse out of context. A little saying goes like this "A verse out of context - is a pretext" Pretext being a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

I've also attached a photo of a bible sense lexicon, to help you see the translation from Hebrew. [2]

Here is the original Hebrew word & meaning. 7451. רַע raʿ, rah; from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (nat. or mor.):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress,[3]

Wait my friend @with_all_humility but God DID create evil:

This is a straw-man argument based on a pretext, I have shown the context and provided supporting evidence to prove the verse does not say God created evil as in sin/immorality. Mankind is the author of sin.

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/x6/uhzim97sdkek.jpeg

[1] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/isaiah-45.html ;
[2] Faithlife Corporation. (2018). calamity (event) (Version 7.13) [Computer software]. Logos Bible Software Bible Sense Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation. Retrieved from https://ref.ly/logos4/Senses?KeyId=ws.calamity.n.01 ;
[3] Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 109). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

Evidence

Dee said:

@Evidence

Hello to you as well , before we start I take it you’re American not being rude but tell me why are so many of yours so openly aggressive and hostile , like what exactly is it you want ?

You stated ......
Oooh, I love a good Hitchslap, I'll even turn the other cheek, just watch my spin round-back hand, cause I know Karati and his whole family. I'll come down on your knee with my nose so fast, you won't know what hit you!?

OK, .. now that I gut that out of my system, let's get serious.

I'll take you on with the "good God argument", if you dare Mr. Hitchens!?

I’m not “ Mr Hitchens “ and if you got a good god argument well post a debate topic up but to be honest if you’re another troll I’m not playing

Incidentally if you had something meaningful to say why didn’t you attempt a rebuttal of my claims in response to this part of the debate ?

Aggressive? I was simply replying to your statement that you don't believe in God, and the only no-God arguments I ever debated were aggressive, baseless assertions based on Religious and not Biblical interpretations.
But sorry, please forgive me if I sounded aggressive.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

God is, as He said to Moses: "Tell them "I Am" has sent me to you".

Now what are your claims that God doesn't exist, or that you don't believe in God, I would be glad to debate that with you?

Again, I am sorry if I came across strong.

Evidence

with_all_humility said:

Evidence said:

EmeryPearson said:

Odin is the true god. He predates the Christian concept of a deity. The Christian deity is merely a false idol created at a later date.

That's actually true, because the story of Odin does predate the Christian deity/deities, which is just 1,700 years old, created by Constantine and his Church of Satan.
Like you said, .. true "god", small 'g' and not our Creator, the Infinite and Eternal God. You mean Odin and his son Chris Hemsworth, .. right?

They should actually make a movie, the Christian god, creator of the Big-Banged universe the Pope, wielding Constantine's sword beheading early Believers who were of the Way, and here comes Chris Hemsworth as Thor wielding Odin's hammer fighting this evil child molesting and murdering horde. Hmm, I could actually see this!?

I bet Thor would loose, .. and end up bowing before the creator of the Big-bang Pope and kissing his ring, and the Pope patting Thor's head saying: "There you go 'precious', .. that's a good boy now, kiss the ring!"

"That's actually true, because the story of Odin does predate the Christian deity/deities, which is just 1,700 years old, created by Constantine and his Church of Satan."

Where do you get you source material and do you actually validate what it say is true?

Have you ever heard fo Josephus? He was Jew lived in the first century, but was not a Christian was not affiliated with the Bible at all. He was some what of a scholar and wrote several books concerning the history of the Jews during his life time.

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish priest at the time of the Jewish Revolt of A.D. 66. He was captured by the Romans, imprisoned, set free, and then retired to Rome where he wrote a history of the Jewish Revolt called the Jewish War. Later he wrote Antiquities as a history of the Jews. It is in Antiquities that he mentions Christ. The mention is called the "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.63-64; see below). Josephus was born in Jerusalem around A.D. 37. He died around the year 101.

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."[1]

What is interesting about Josephus is that he actually wrote of Jesus, not by direct witness, but based upon the testimony of others durning the time period. The Bible speaks of over 500 eyewitness to seeing Jesus after his death. The point being, the person named Jesus (who was rejected by the Jews of the time) back in the first century made such an impact on society of the time that a historian sought fit to make mention of him in his collection of writings.

So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

[1] Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.). See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html).

@with_all_humility said: So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

Are you a Christian?
Do you think that Jesus, his Apostles, the pre-RCC Constantine believers/Disciples, .. that any of these who were part of the Church of God who followed Jesus were Christian?
Where did you get that "Christianity was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine" ? Since all I know is that the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. They never went by the name "Christian", but were followers of "the Way", which later on Paul persecuted.

As you can see Josephus mentions Jesus Christ and those Jewish disciples who followed him, .. not Christians.

God bless you.

Evidence

with_all_humility said:

Evidence said:

with_all_humility said:

BaconToes said:

with_all_humility said:
We were created in His image, thus we have free will of thought.

Who's image was God created from?

You are pulling my statement out of context, and making a pretext. I was not defending the position of is God real, I was reinforcing as a statement that concluded "evil comes from the free will of man. Go back and read the whole position. As for we were created in God image, that was a paraphrase of Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So I did not make it up. The question in the string that was debating "does God create evil?" The very nature of the question establishes God existence, so I did not have to establish a defense for His existence. I only had to reinforce that God does not create evil.

Wait my friend @with_all_humility but God DID create evil:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

My friend, I have answered Isaiah on another post would be honored to illustrate true contextual meaning of the word "evil" in the KJV of the Bible.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" - Isaiah 45:7
This is a fallacy, your cherry-picking a verse out of context and never validated what it was actually saying. You also used the KJV that translated back in 1611, and last updated in 1885. While a good translation for it's time and still has some uses today. It uses words that we really don't associate with today English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version ;
Now, you have to be careful with Isaiah. He was a messianic prophet, meaning he foretold the coming of Jesus. A lot of what is recorded in Isaiah is figurative language, just the book of Daniel. The book of Revelation is very figurative as well, but it is considered apocalyptic language it is not meant to be taken literally. So let's look at Isaiah 45.7
If you goto the beginning of the chapter and start reading, we find "to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to lose the belts of kings" It's also good to know the time period we are in, which is about 150 years before the Babylonian empire comes in and conquers the nation of Israel, taking them into captivity. What the reference here to Cyrus is that through God's providence King Cyrus was going to take out some evil kings. It is not saying Cyrus is of piety or a demigod. God is just going to allow Cyrus to win a few wars, in order to do some "corporal punishment" to a few evil kings.
Without boring you with an in-depth description of the rest of the verse, in short, God is warning Israel to get their act together, or the will be punished
v45.7: I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.(NKJV)
God is just reminding Israel here in prophetic language that He has control over everything. Notice the New King James Version uses the word calamity
Albert Barnes a 19th Century Scholar states this concerning the phrase; And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has the power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.[1]
So like I said at the begin, the original argument or example is a fallacy. One has to be careful of taking a verse out of context. A little saying goes like this "A verse out of context - is a pretext" Pretext being a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.
I've also attached a photo of a bible sense lexicon, to help you see the translation from Hebrew. [2]
Here is the original Hebrew word & meaning. 7451. רַע raʿ, rah; from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (nat. or mor.):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress,[3]
Wait my friend @with_all_humility but God DID create evil:
This is a straw-man argument based on a pretext, I have shown the context and provided supporting evidence to prove the verse does not say God created evil as in sin/immorality. Mankind is the author of sin.

@with_all_humility
God created evil, there is nothing "figurative" about it, nor am I cherry picking, unless you consider these next Bible verses of Gods version of evil cherry picking?

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife,
and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

From the Garden of Eden to the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return, I believe that is as evil as any evil that can befall man.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth,
and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,
both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air,
for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.
25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt
27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace.

When God drowns the whole world except 8 people and the animals on the Arc, when He brings brimstone and fire and wipes out all them inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah that's considered evil. Not the sinister evil, but justice evil, evil just the same.

Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has,
and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power;
only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”

16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”

17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”

God allowed evil to befall Job, whether God creates the evil or Satan, it is evil, and this is why Jesus taught us to pray like so:

Mathew 6:- KJV
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mathew 6; - NKJV
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

.. in either case, in the NKJV God created Lucifer, in the KJV He can deliver us from evil that God has created for those who disobey, and hate Him.

Mathew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels:

People fear Satan as if he was the creator of evil, but soon will find out, like Adam and Eve, like the pre-flood world of Noah, like the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah that God is the creator of evil, so fear the justice of God, not the evil of Satan.
Satan creates chaos for evil sake, while God creates evil for justice sake to preserve good.

with_all_humility

@with_all_humility
God created evil, there is nothing "figurative" about it, nor am I cherry picking, unless you consider these next Bible verses of Gods version of evil cherry picking?

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife,
and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
From the Garden of Eden to the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return, I believe that is as evil as any evil that can befall man.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
And that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth,
And He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,
both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air,
For I am sorry that I have made them.”

Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.
25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt
27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace.

When God drowns the whole world except 8 people and the animals on the Arc, when He brings brimstone and fire and wipes out all them inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah that's considered evil. Not the sinister evil, but justice evil, evil just the same.

Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has,
and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power;
only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”

16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
God allowed evil to befall Job, whether God creates the evil or Satan, it is evil, and this is why Jesus taught us to pray like so:

Mathew 6:- KJV
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mathew 6; - NKJV
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

.. in either case, in the NKJV God created Lucifer, in the KJV He can deliver us from evil that God has created for those who disobey, and hate Him.

Mathew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels:

People fear Satan as if he was the creator of evil, but soon will find out, like Adam and Eve, like the pre-flood world of Noah, like the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah that God is the creator of evil, so fear the justice of God, not the evil of Satan.
Satan creates chaos for evil sake, while God creates evil for justice sake to preserve good.

Gen 3.17 - Please elaborate on how God has created evil if you view accountability/punishment as evil. Do you believe the courts' system to wrong as well? Do you have children of your own? If so, do you discipline them, if not would you discipline them. Casting Adam & Eve out of the garden may sound bad but God was actually doing Adam & Eve a favor. I believe the reason for two-fold, 1) look at v12, Adam does not repent of his sin, instead, he first blames Eve and the blames God because He created her. 2) v22 Is the key to removing them from the garden. If they would have eaten of the tree of life, they would have been in a sinful state forever, and to sin is to be separated from God (Isa 59.2 so mankind would have never been reunited with God if Adam and Eve would have eaten of the tree of life). There is no evil here, only sinners being held accounted, mercifully at that.

Gen 3:12 Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."
Life is a divine gift, but it is tied to the stipulation of obedience.[1]
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

When God drowns the whole world except 8 people and the animals on the Arc when He brings brimstone and fire and wipes out all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah that are considered evil. Not the sinister evil, but justice evil, evil just the same.

There is nothing evil about the destruction of the world. In fact, God gave Mankind 150 to get themselves right with the Lord. Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." A reprieve granted, notwithstanding; Yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years; so long I will defer the judgment they deserve and give them space to prevent it by their repentance and reformation. Justice said, Cut them down; but mercy interceded, Lord, let them alone this year also; and so far mercy prevailed, that a reprieve was obtained for 120 years. Note, The time of God’s patience and forbearance towards provoking sinners is sometimes long, but always limited: reprieves are not pardons; though God bear a great while, he will not bear always [2]

So out of God's compassion for mankind, He gave an extra 120 years for man to correct their unholy ways. The reason the Earth was destroyed is because how corrupt man had become, only 8 people were found to be in God's favor. Its like when the US invade Iraq and Afghanistan, it was because of the wrong doings of the Islamic Extremest. Same with God, if His word (diplomatic relations) fail to bring about people to quit sinning, then He is going to go punish those who won't quit their unholy ways.(Shock and Ahhh campaign) So that is not being evil, that is instilling justice.

Sodom & Gamorrah: Same as the great flood. Read Gen 18 (Do you ever read the bible or do you just copy past from other atheist sites)

Gen 18:20-21: Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."

Gen 18:23 Then Abraham drew near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?"
Gen 18:32 Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."
Now I skipped some verse, but you need to go and read Gen 18 &19, however, I've shown in these verses that 3 angles came to investigate what was going on in S & G. They could hear the outcry of their sin in heaven. v23 Reveals that if it is a wicked as they suspect then God will destroy everyone. So Abraham begins to barter with the angle of the Lord, what if there is 50 righteous will you not destroy? Sure...This goes on until they get down to just 10 righteous (meaning good). But they can't even find 10 righteous people. (sad) Out of all the people there, v15 reveals that on 4 righteous people could be found.
Gen 19:15: As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city."

You can read of your own the wick things that the people did. (Once again, this was punishment for wrong doings not random destroying of people)

You claim God does "Justice Evil" can you define that for me? Who are you to say what is Evil and what is Not? Do you set the rules in your house? If the speed limit is 70 MPH and you're doing 90 MPH...is the law enforcement officer Evil for pulling you over. What about the young man in Parkland FL, if the judge sentences the kid to be executed, has the judge done Evil? Who define Evil? Evil in one man's eye maybe Virtuous in the another man's eye.

God allowed evil to befall Job, whether God creates the evil or Satan, it is evil, (We'll deal with Old Testament Job first)

The story of Job: Job was a devout man of God, so much that was told Satan to notice of Job. Let’s look at the interaction between God and Satan concerning Job. Job is a story of perseverance and an illustration of no matter what happens to us; we can keep our trust in God because He does what He says. It is also an illustration of Satan can only tempt a person from away from God, not snatch away. Only, way we can succumb is if the person allows it.

When considering the trails that Job went thru, it important to realize Job was only being tempted. God had just as much faith in Job, as Job had for God. This answers why God allowed Job to be tempted. This is affirmed by the apostle Paul when he told the Corinthians about being tempted in 1Co 10:13: No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 1:6-12: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So, Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My Servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So, Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So, Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.[3]

So, what we see has Satan doubted the faithfulness of Job since he was richly blessed with a good life and riches. God, did not doubt Job loyalty and all Satan to do whatever he wanted, he could just not lay a hand on Job. Needless to say, it’s a good read, if a man ever experienced evil it was Job, he became diseased, all his family was made to die, his friends turned on Job, he lost everything that he had. But he never cursed God, Job always praised God and knew there was a purpose for the things that happened to him. In the end, Satan concedes to God that Job was the man God said he was and we see in at the end of the book of Job. God never allowed Job to be tempted any more that what he could handle (1 Cor 10.13)

Job 42:10-12: And the LORD restored Job's losses when he prayed for his friends. Indeed, the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold. Now the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning.[4]

Now, its pretty clear as to who started the conversation, and as to who knew Job best. God allowed Satan to tempt Job, but it was not God doing the tempting. Satan is a free will agent just like mankind its. God wanted to prove or show Satan that he did not have dominion of man. And that is exactly what Jesus says over in John chapter 10, Jesus is telling parable, sheep are disciples no one can snatch them away; for His Father is greater than all. This is right in parallel with Job, only way to become a lost sheep is to willfully stop following the Shepard.

John 10.27-30: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.[5]

"This is why Jesus taught us to pray like so:"...In either case, in the NKJV God created Lucifer, in the KJV He can deliver us from evil that God has created for those who disobey, and hate Him."

The Bible speaks of evil so we had better define what the Bible means when it speaks of evil. Paul in his letter to the church in Rome identity’s man as being the creator of evil. Paul states that people who practice such things as listed are deserving of death, this is a spiritual death, not a physical death.

Romans 1.28-29: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.[6]

So we can clearly see the Evil is the sinful acts of mankind, did you know if you search the Bible (NKJV) Satan is not called evil doer, or the prince of evil. No he is call the Tempter, Satan, being a fallen Angel (they have free will too) is only allowed to tempt man, but when we succumb to our temptations we commit evil

Here are a few verses to prove to you...
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Mar 1:13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him.
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (See Satan had other fallen angles with this)

Mathew 6; - NKJV 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

The disciples asked Jesus how they aught to pray, so Mat 6.5-15 is what is know about Christ model prayer. From what we have learned about Satan and evil, what Christ is say here is, don't lead us into a situation we someone or something might tempt us, because desire breeds temptation (Jam 1.13). And if we happen to commit sin (evil) deliver us from it or forgive us of our sins. It's really quite simple when you read the whole bible.

"...in either case, in the NKJV God created Lucifer, in the KJV He can deliver us from evil that God has created for those who disobey, and hate Him."

Actually Lucifer is not a reference to Satan, here are some verses you read about Lucifer: or, day-star, 2Pe 1:19; Rev 2:28, Rev 22:16. What you will find is Lucifer is a star.

Mathew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

I used this verse as an example, this is an end of time prophecy Christ gave to his disciples when they asked him what end of time was going to be like. But at the end of time Satan and his angles & demon will be cast into the lake of fire like all sinners.

People fear Satan as if he was the creator of evil, but soon will find out, like Adam and Eve, like the pre-flood world of Noah, like the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah that God is the creator of evil, so fear the justice of God, not the evil of Satan.
Satan creates chaos for evil sake, while God creates evil for justice sake to preserve good.

You are going to have to give me a verse in the Bible where it says Satan is evil preferably from the NKJV. Adam & Eve were tempted and sinned, and I explained the rest already. The world was wicked prior to flood and was even given 120 years to get themselves right with the Lord. Sodom & Gomorrah were made an example of, only could find 4 righteous souls amongst the inhabitants, they were punished. Noting evil about corporal punishment, we covered that as well. God did not create sin or evil. Sin was brought into this world by mankind, and to sin is to create evil and its done of our now free will.

Think of it like this, you have a child, you raise he/she to be good and obey the laws. When they are 30 years old then goes and commits a robbery, are you as their creator responsible for their actions?

[1] Mathews, K. A. (1996). Genesis 1-11:26 (Vol. 1A, p. 256). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

[2] Henry, M. (1994.) Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 22). Peabody: Hendrickson.

[3]The New King James Version. (1982). (Job 1:6–12). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[4] The New King James Version. (1982). (Job 42:10–12). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[5] The New King James Version. (1982). (Jn 10:27–30). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[6] The New King James Version. (1982). (Rom 1:28–29). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

with_all_humility

@Evidence

@with_all_humility said: So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

Are you a Christian? Yeah, maybe I misunderstood your post, I thought one of you were trying to say the Constantine created Christianity.

I take it that we're having a disconnect in the meaning of the word Christian. The word Christian was not something coined by Constantine. If fact we see it used twice in the New Testament. First by the apostle Paul and second by the apostle Peter (Who was at Christ death on the cross).

Act 11.26: and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. [1]
Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" [2]
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [3]

“The church” is qualified here as meaning the people of the Church. It is agreed by the commentators that Christians was a title given to the believers by the non-Christian community, perhaps because the believers said “Christ is Lord,” in contrast with the confession of the Roman world “Caesar is Lord.” Thus the word Christian basically means “one who is a follower of Christ.” The word used here is used only here, 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. In many languages it is difficult to form an adjective on the root Christ, and therefore one cannot so conveniently employ a term such as Christian. This means that the closest equivalent may be a phrase such as “followers of Christ” or “adherents to Christ.” One should, however, avoid expressions which will only imply some intellectual interest in the Christian faith, for example, “Learners from Christ” or “learners of the Christ way.” Some greater emphasis upon commitment is required. [4]

We see the first mention of a group of people calling them selves in Act 11.26 who were the disciples of Antioch. Then in Act 11.26 Paul is tell of his conversion to a Christian to King Agrippa II. Paul's account was so compelling that King Agrippa states "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" Agrippa II was the son of Herod Agrippa I (cf. 12:1, 19–23) and the great-grandson of Herod the Great and the Hasmonean princess Miriamne. Born in a.d. 27, he was reared in Rome and in a.d. 48 upon the death of an uncle was given the latter’s rule over the small kingdom of Chalcis. His rule was further extended in a.d. 56, when Nero placed him over several additional villages in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, including Caesarea Philippi. The Romans granted him the custody of the ceremonial vestments worn by the high priest on the Day of Atonement. He also held the authority to appoint the high priest. In this respect he could be considered “king of the Jews." [5]

The third time we see it used is by Peter in 1 Pet 4.16; The letter begins with Peter identifying himself as the author. The name “Peter” was given to Simon by Jesus Christ early in his ministry (John 1:42; cf. Matt 10:2; 16:18; Mark 3:16; Luke 6:14). Peter designates himself as an apostle. The term “apostle” may simply mean “messenger,” but here the idea is that Peter is one of the twelve apostles, specially chosen by Jesus himself for that office. The location of the readers is communicated in the words “scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.” The term “scattered” (diasporas) could be translated literally as “of the Dispersion” [6] The call to renounce shame focuses on actions that are shameful. Specifically, Christians would act shamefully by denying Christ before unbelievers or by failing to persevere in the faith (cf. Mark 8:38; 2 Tim 1:8, 12, 16; 2:15). Hence, those who are ashamed would be guilty of apostasy. By way of contrast believers glorify God by confessing and praising his name publicly (cf. Rom 15:6; 2 Cor 9:13). They glorify God in the name “Christian” by enduring such suffering with joy (v. 13), pleased that they are privileged to suffer because of their allegiance to Jesus Christ. The final phrase of the verse, “in that name” (NASB, en tō onomati toutō), probably is a dative of sphere, signifying that believers suffer for the epithet “Christian.” [7]

As we can see the use of the word Christian was not just limited to those at Antioch. The Christian did not signify Jew nor Greek, but just a simple follower of Christ. Just act the word Disciple means a personal follower of Christ during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles. [8] Where we learned earlier that Christian meant “followers of Christ” or “adherents to Christ." Therefore disciple and Christian are nearly synonymous to each other. However technically one can be a disciple to anyone, whereas Christian narrows it down to faithful follower of Christ.

Mat 28:19-20 Know as the Great Commission: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[9]

Do you think that Jesus, his Apostles, yes based upon the verses I gave you the first century followers call themselves Christians. The RCC, Constantine's believers/Disciples had nothing to do with the name other than carrying on the tradition.

Where did you get that "Christianity was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine"? From the three verses I gave you three instances where the word Christian was used during the first century to describe followers of Christ and the confirmation of Christ and his disciples by Josephus.

As you can see Josephus mentions Jesus Christ and those Jewish disciples who followed him...not Christians...Well to be a disciple of Christ is to be a Christian refer to material above, and it was not just Antioch, Peter's epistle when to Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.

The claim was "That's actually true, because the story of Odin does predate the Christian deity/deities, which is just 1,700 years old, created by Constantine and his Church of Satan" This is the comment that I was responding to, I also could not fine a date easier than 1AD for Odin, and that was by Roman authors. Odin did not become popular in Germany until 500 AD and with the Viking until 800-1050 AD. So I'm having difficulty finding a reference for Odin predating "Christian deity/deities"

I may have misunderstood who was saying what, but Christian confirmed by secular history is by Josephus by way of inference.

Many Blessings!

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
[1] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 11:25–26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[2] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 26:28). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[3] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1Pe 4:16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[4] Newman, B. M., & Nida, E. A. (1972). A handbook on the Acts of the Apostles (p. 228). New York: United Bible Societies.
[5] Polhill, J. B. (1992). Acts (Vol. 26, pp. 492–493). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
[6] Schreiner, T. R. (2003). 1, 2 Peter, Jude (Vol. 37, p. 51). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

[7] Goppelt, I Peter, 328; Kelly, Peter and Jude, 190–91; Elliott, 1 Peter, 796.
[8] Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (Eds.). (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
[8] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mt 28:19–20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

ethielen18

There is no proof that there is a god and no way to prove that there is one. All of the stories about Jesus and the bible are basically things that you are just meant to believe. They don't prove anything. Also, why would a god who is supposed to love you make people suffer so much?

Evidence

TheeKnowing said:

[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord wil haue mercie on Iacob, and wil yet choose Israel, and set them in their owne land: and the strangers shalbe ioyned with them, and they shal cleaue to the house of Iacob.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall bee saued in the Lord with an euerlasting saluation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered, and said, I am not sent, but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to bee a Prince and a Sauiour, for to giue repentance to Israel, and forgiuenesse of sinnes.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelue gates, and at the gates twelue Angels, & names written thereon, which are the names of the twelue tribes of the children of Israel.

What will the other nations repent from? They have nothing to repent from. Sin is transgressing the law or God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

What nation was given the laws, statues, and commandments?

Psalms 147:19-20
19 He sheweth his word vnto Iacob: his statutes and his iudgements vnto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his iudgements, they haue not knowen them. Praise yee the Lord.
So the nation of Israel was given the laws, statues, and commandments. So the other nations don't have salvation because there is nothing for them to repent from, due to the fact that sin is transgressing the law.
[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.
Matthew 5:17-19
17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.
So what did Christ fulfill?
Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.
Christ fulfilled everything that was written in the Law of Moses, and everything that the Prophets prophesied of Him. That's what He fulfilled.
Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.

@TheeKnowing - Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.
[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Christians don't have that wrong, what they have wrong is the gods they worship over our Infinite Creator. Yes, salvation IS for all people, and Jesus gave an example why!?

Mathew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. (and they still refuse)

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. (there is a lot more, like the dream of the table cloth full of clean and unclean animals, and told Paul kill and eat. Also Romans explains it in detail.)

[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.

Again, that's not the Christian gods, it was Jesus that brought us up from living for the flesh, or beisng slaves to the flesh, to living a Spiritual life in that Eternal Spiritual Kingdom, .. where we no longer run around to find a discounted dove, or a sheep On Sale for an offering to pay for our sins, but we are to live for Christ where we no longer have a desire for sin.
The law is now written in our hearts and minds because of Christ.

Why, you know of any Jews that keep the whole law? Because if you break one, you break them all! And even if you did know someone, like the Rich Young Ruler who they brought to Jesus, remember?

Evidence

with_all_humility said:

with_all_humility
How God created evil? Just look at Adam and Eves life before and after their fall, where thorns and the scorching sun awaited Adam, and the ground did not give way to his shovel anymore like it used to. Eve also bore children in great pain from then on. Being punished, is evil being done to us. Eye for an eye, remember? Tell me, what's the difference between the two evils weather the judge orders your eyes to be plucked out, or a thief does it so he can rob you?

Or what would of been the difference for Job if he knew right off the bat that it was God who allowed Satan to cause him all that evil?
Or take David for an example, he knew God made his first son with Bathsheba sick to death, he knew that God cursed him with evil, and not just his son with Bathsheba, other terrible evil befell David with his older sons too. God brought evil upon David, the only difference is that the evil that God sends upon us is just.
What's the difference if Chaldeans come and rob your livestock, or God sends them to do it? The point here is that God is the Creator of evil, He created evil to punish, to chastise, and to test us, to try our love for Him. Evil is evil, .. who does it, and for what reason is what you are confused about, not that Gods evil is less evil than mans, or Satan's.

with_all_humility said: Mathew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
I used this verse as an example, this is an end of time prophecy Christ gave to his disciples when they asked him what end of time was going to be like. But at the end of time Satan and his angles & demon will be cast into the lake of fire like all sinners.

So being cursed into the everlasting fire is not evil? Matter of fact only God can do such evil. It's justice, but evil none-the-less.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Because of our continuous disobedience to God, He has brought upon us a great burden, a yolk none of us could bear, the Law. None of us could keep it except the One and Only begotten son Word, who became flesh, died on the cross and took the law to the grave with him.

with_all_humility said: So we can clearly see the Evil is the sinful acts of mankind, did you know if you search the Bible (NKJV) Satan is not called evil doer, or the prince of evil. No he is call the Tempter, Satan, being a fallen Angel (they have free will too) is only allowed to tempt man, but when we succumb to our temptations we commit evil

So you don't think if you were to tempt grade-school children with drugs, is not evil?

Lucifer, Satan, the devil, the serpent, Beelzebub: In theological sources, predominately Christian, Beelzebub is sometimes another name for the Devil, similar to Satan. He is known in demonology as one of the seven princes of Hell.

with_all_humility said: Think of it like this, you have a child, you raise he/she to be good and obey the laws. When they are 30 years old then goes and commits a robbery, are you as their creator responsible for their actions?

Only if I was the one who tempted them into committing the robbery. This is why Lucifer/Satan/devil and his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, an evil that only God could create.
I don't think that either understand, or read what I write, seems you keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Evil is evil, and God created evil, no one can create evil like God can. So we are not to fear the devil and his angels, or even those who kill the flesh, but we aught to fear God, because the evil He can bestow upon us is both just, and everlasting.

Why do you think criminals fear the judge, .. you think they fear his 'justice', or the evil that he can bring upon them? Or our children, you think they fear us parents because of our justice, .. or because the evil we can bring upon them? Same with God, sinful men fear His judgement, not His Justice.
For a criminal, justice would be to be set free!

God bless you

Evidence

with_all_humility said:

@Evidence

@with_all_humility said: So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

Are you a Christian? Yeah, maybe I misunderstood your post, I thought one of you were trying to say the Constantine created Christianity.

I take it that we're having a disconnect in the meaning of the word Christian. The word Christian was not something coined by Constantine. If fact we see it used twice in the New Testament. First by the apostle Paul and second by the apostle Peter (Who was at Christ death on the cross).
Act 11.26: and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. [1]
Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" [2]
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [3]
<snip>
Many Blessings!

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
[1] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 11:25–26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[2] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 26:28). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[3] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1Pe 4:16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[4] Newman, B. M., & Nida, E. A. (1972). A handbook on the Acts of the Apostles (p. 228). New York: United Bible Societies.
[5] Polhill, J. B. (1992). Acts (Vol. 26, pp. 492–493). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
[6] Schreiner, T. R. (2003). 1, 2 Peter, Jude (Vol. 37, p. 51). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
[7] Goppelt, I Peter, 328; Kelly, Peter and Jude, 190–91; Elliott, 1 Peter, 796.
[8] Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (Eds.). (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
[8] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mt 28:19–20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

with_all_humility said:
I take it that we're having a disconnect in the meaning of the word Christian. The word Christian was not something coined by Constantine. If fact we see it used twice in the New Testament. First by the apostle Paul and second by the apostle Peter (Who was at Christ death on the cross).

Act 11.26: and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. [1]
Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" [2]
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [3]

The word "Christian" was a derogatory word used to mock those early Disciples who were of The Way.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

The Believers were first CALLED Christian in Antioch by the Gentiles, as a soft mockery, teasing, similar to how we refer to some people as “Goodie Two Shoes”. - The definition of a goody two shoes is a person who always does everything right and always follows the rules, so much so that it becomes annoying.

Look, in Acts 11:26 it was the Gentiles who mock-called the Believers “Christian”, but in the Bible we see that they never referred to themselves as Christians, but “The Way”, .. and here is why?

Acts 19:3 And about that time there arose a great commotion about “the Way”.

And here in Acts 26 we see King Agrippa mocking Paul:

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

(don't try to pretty this verse up to try to justify the RCC multi-gods Christian Religion, because I can almost hear the laughter in the court as Agrippa said that!)

And here in 1 Peter 4:16- we see how insulting and annoying it started to become to the Early Believers, or Disciples, those who were of “the Way”

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Now look at the heading of this part of the chapter, and lets read why Peter brought it up:

Suffering for God’s Glory

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.[d] On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter

with_all_humility said: Mat 28:19-20 Know as the Great Commission: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[9]

Do you think that Jesus, his Apostles, yes based upon the verses I gave you the first century followers call themselves Christians. The RCC, Constantine's believers/Disciples had nothing to do with the name other than carrying on the tradition.

Sorry, but the Early disciples NEVER called themselves the derogatory word Christian, never. And you think that the pagan god worshipping Constantine and his RCChurch carried on the "tradition"??? What tradition, beheadings, torture, robbing the people by spreading fear so they would buy their way into Heaven?

Paul persecuted "The Way", .. NOT the RCC Christians. Constantine who worshipped pagan gods added the mock word Christian to his Catholic Church, and enforced it with his sword which represented the upside down cross, sent the Popes Marines the Jesuits throughout Europe and eventually killed all the Early-Believers/Disciples who opposed his Trinity-gods:

father-god (the Pope),

sun-god (Lucifer)

and Mother of all his gods Mary (Isis) as the spirit-god to whom Christians pray to. Pope as father-god, the sun that the RCC worship as the sun-god, and the spirit of Isis Mother of the gods called Mary for the blind sheep to pray to. (The Vatican has a Telescope named LUCIFER in Tucson AZ where the Jesuits keep an eye on the sun, their sun-god.)

Here is who Paul went after:

Acts 9:2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of "the Way", whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Acts 16:17, Acts 18:25,26 Acts 19:9, Acts 29:23, Acts 24:14,22 Romans 3:17 talks about “the Way”, and how “the Way” will be perverted!”

About Odin,

Odin - 1AD

Christian gods 350AD - after killing Arius and not long after that, the RCC-Pope as the vicar of God finally took over the Arian non -Trinitarian churches, named Arius as a heretic and burned all his books.

There is but One Baptism, not three (which the RCC added into the Bible). There are three that witness, the water, the blood and the Spirit, and One in whom we are Baptized, the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ!!!

God bless you, the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal One.

Satyamsingh

Well I Dont think any god exist!... You seen one?

TheeKnowing

Evidence said:

TheeKnowing said:

[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord wil haue mercie on Iacob, and wil yet choose Israel, and set them in their owne land: Evidence said:

TheeKnowing said:

[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord wil haue mercie on Iacob, and wil yet choose Israel, and set them in their owne land: and the strangers shalbe ioyned with them, and they shal cleaue to the house of Iacob.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall bee saued in the Lord with an euerlasting saluation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered, and said, I am not sent, but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to bee a Prince and a Sauiour, for to giue repentance to Israel, and forgiuenesse of sinnes.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelue gates, and at the gates twelue Angels, & names written thereon, which are the names of the twelue tribes of the children of Israel.

What will the other nations repent from? They have nothing to repent from. Sin is transgressing the law or God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

What nation was given the laws, statues, and commandments?

Psalms 147:19-20
19 He sheweth his word vnto Iacob: his statutes and his iudgements vnto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his iudgements, they haue not knowen them. Praise yee the Lord.
So the nation of Israel was given the laws, statues, and commandments. So the other nations don't have salvation because there is nothing for them to repent from, due to the fact that sin is transgressing the law.
[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.
Matthew 5:17-19
17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.
So what did Christ fulfill?
Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.
Christ fulfilled everything that was written in the Law of Moses, and everything that the Prophets prophesied of Him. That's what He fulfilled.
Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.

@TheeKnowing - Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.
[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Christians don't have that wrong, what they have wrong is the gods they worship over our Infinite Creator. Yes, salvation IS for all people, and Jesus gave an example why!?
Mathew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. (and they still refuse)

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. (there is a lot more, like the dream of the table cloth full of clean and unclean animals, and told Paul kill and eat. Also Romans explains it in detail.)
[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.

Again, that's not the Christian gods, it was Jesus that brought us up from living for the flesh, or beisng slaves to the flesh, to living a Spiritual life in that Eternal Spiritual Kingdom, .. where we no longer run around to find a discounted dove, or a sheep On Sale for an offering to pay for our sins, but we are to live for Christ where we no longer have a desire for sin.
The law is now written in our hearts and minds because of Christ.

Why, you know of any Jews that keep the whole law? Because if you break one, you break them all! And even if you did know someone, like the Rich Young Ruler who they brought to Jesus, remember?

and the strangers shalbe ioyned with them, and they shal cleaue to the house of Iacob.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall bee saued in the Lord with an euerlasting saluation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered, and said, I am not sent, but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to bee a Prince and a Sauiour, for to giue repentance to Israel, and forgiuenesse of sinnes.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelue gates, and at the gates twelue Angels, & names written thereon, which are the names of the twelue tribes of the children of Israel.

What will the other nations repent from? They have nothing to repent from. Sin is transgressing the law or God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

What nation was given the laws, statues, and commandments?

Psalms 147:19-20
19 He sheweth his word vnto Iacob: his statutes and his iudgements vnto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his iudgements, they haue not knowen them. Praise yee the Lord.
So the nation of Israel was given the laws, statues, and commandments. So the other nations don't have salvation because there is nothing for them to repent from, due to the fact that sin is transgressing the law.
[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.
Matthew 5:17-19
17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.
So what did Christ fulfill?
Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.
Christ fulfilled everything that was written in the Law of Moses, and everything that the Prophets prophesied of Him. That's what He fulfilled.
Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.

@TheeKnowing - Just about everything that Christianity teaches, actually contradicts what the Bible teaches. These are just a couple of false teachings from Christianity, but there are plenty more.
[1] The Christian god states that salvation is for all people; all nations can repent and be saved.

Christians don't have that wrong, what they have wrong is the gods they worship over our Infinite Creator. Yes, salvation IS for all people, and Jesus gave an example why!?
Mathew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. (and they still refuse)

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. (there is a lot more, like the dream of the table cloth full of clean and unclean animals, and told Paul kill and eat. Also Romans explains it in detail.)
[2] The Christian god says the law is done away with.

Again, that's not the Christian gods, it was Jesus that brought us up from living for the flesh, or beisng slaves to the flesh, to living a Spiritual life in that Eternal Spiritual Kingdom, .. where we no longer run around to find a discounted dove, or a sheep On Sale for an offering to pay for our sins, but we are to live for Christ where we no longer have a desire for sin.
The law is now written in our hearts and minds because of Christ.

Why, you know of any Jews that keep the whole law? Because if you break one, you break them all! And even if you did know someone, like the Rich Young Ruler who they brought to Jesus, remember?

What Scripture says salvation is for all people? What do the other nations need to be saved from? Jesus never said the law was done away with, as Matthew 5:17-19 states.

WokeWhale

If the Christian God exists, then there is no way to disprove the gods of other religions and cultures. No god is more or less plausible than another. Zeus or Thor are just as real as the Christian God. We cannot disprove the Norse gods, or the Greek and Roman gods, and the Oriental and Egyptian gods cannot be ignored. But if God exists because He cannot be disproved, then following the same logic the gods of other religions must exist as well.

with_all_humility

Evidence said:

with_all_humility said:

@Evidence

@with_all_humility said: So, no Constantine did not invent the Christianity, for it was recorded in secular history 200 years before Constantine.

Are you a Christian? Yeah, maybe I misunderstood your post, I thought one of you were trying to say the Constantine created Christianity.

I take it that we're having a disconnect in the meaning of the word Christian. The word Christian was not something coined by Constantine. If fact we see it used twice in the New Testament. First by the apostle Paul and second by the apostle Peter (Who was at Christ death on the cross).
Act 11.26: and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. [1]
Act 26:28  And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" [2]
1Pe 4:16  Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [3]
<snip>
Many Blessings!

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
[1] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 11:25–26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[2] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 26:28). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[3] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1Pe 4:16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
[4] Newman, B. M., & Nida, E. A. (1972). A handbook on the Acts of the Apostles (p. 228). New York: United Bible Societies.
[5] Polhill, J. B. (1992). Acts (Vol. 26, pp. 492–493). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
[6] Schreiner, T. R. (2003). 1, 2 Peter, Jude (Vol. 37, p. 51). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
[7] Goppelt, I Peter, 328; Kelly, Peter and Jude, 190–91; Elliott, 1 Peter, 796.
[8] Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (Eds.). (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
[8] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mt 28:19–20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

with_all_humility said:
I take it that we're having a disconnect in the meaning of the word Christian. The word Christian was not something coined by Constantine. If fact we see it used twice in the New Testament. First by the apostle Paul and second by the apostle Peter (Who was at Christ death on the cross).
Act 11.26: and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. [1]
Act 26:28  And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?" [2]
1Pe 4:16  Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [3]

The word "Christian" was a derogatory word used to mock those early Disciples who were of The Way.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
The Believers were first CALLED Christian in Antioch by the Gentiles, as a soft mockery, teasing, similar to how we refer to some people as “Goodie Two Shoes”. - The definition of a goody two shoes is a person who always does everything right and always follows the rules, so much so that it becomes annoying.
Look, in Acts 11:26 it was the Gentiles who mock-called the Believers “Christian”, but in the Bible we see that they never referred to themselves as Christians, but “The Way”, .. and here is why?
Acts 19:3 And about that time there arose a great commotion about “the Way”.
And here in Acts 26 we see King Agrippa mocking Paul:
Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
(don't try to pretty this verse up to try to justify the RCC multi-gods Christian Religion, because I can almost hear the laughter in the court as Agrippa said that!)
And here in 1 Peter 4:16- we see how insulting and annoying it started to become to the Early Believers, or Disciples, those who were of “the Way”
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Now look at the heading of this part of the chapter, and lets read why Peter brought it up:
Suffering for God’s Glory
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.[d] On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter

with_all_humility said: Mat 28:19-20 Know as the Great Commission: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[9]

Do you think that Jesus, his Apostles, yes based upon the verses I gave you the first century followers call themselves Christians. The RCC, Constantine's believers/Disciples had nothing to do with the name other than carrying on the tradition.
Sorry, but the Early disciples NEVER called themselves the derogatory word Christian, never. And you think that the pagan god worshipping Constantine and his RCChurch carried on the "tradition"??? What tradition, beheadings, torture, robbing the people by spreading fear so they would buy their way into Heaven?

Paul persecuted "The Way", .. NOT the RCC Christians. Constantine who worshipped pagan gods added the mock word Christian to his Catholic Church, and enforced it with his sword which represented the upside down cross, sent the Popes Marines the Jesuits throughout Europe and eventually killed all the Early-Believers/Disciples who opposed his Trinity-gods:
father-god (the Pope),
sun-god (Lucifer)
and Mother of all his gods Mary (Isis) as the spirit-god to whom Christians pray to. Pope as father-god, the sun that the RCC worship as the sun-god, and the spirit of Isis Mother of the gods called Mary for the blind sheep to pray to. (The Vatican has a Telescope named LUCIFER in Tucson AZ where the Jesuits keep an eye on the sun, their sun-god.)
Here is who Paul went after:
Acts 9:2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of "the Way", whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Acts 16:17, Acts 18:25,26 Acts 19:9, Acts 29:23, Acts 24:14,22 Romans 3:17 talks about “the Way”, and how “the Way” will be perverted!”
About Odin,
Odin - 1AD
Christian gods 350AD - after killing Arius and not long after that, the RCC-Pope as the vicar of God finally took over the Arian non -Trinitarian churches, named Arius as a heretic and burned all his books.
There is but One Baptism, not three (which the RCC added into the Bible). There are three that witness, the water, the blood and the Spirit, and One in whom we are Baptized, the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ!!!
God bless you, the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal One.

Thanks for sharing your insight on the name "Christian", I've never honestly studied its origins and use. I've always focused on other aspects of study. You struck my curiosity and I'll have to do some studying on the topic.

Paul persecuted "The Way"...Not nitpicking but it was Saul who persecuted "The Way" Paul was the man whom Saul became upon his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. Where he was blinded and told to seek out Ananias. Who preached the Good News to Saul and baptized him in the name of Jesus Christ.

"Act 9:13-18 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once, and he arose and was baptized.

"Acts 16:17, Acts 18:25,26 Acts 19:9, Acts 29:23, Acts 24:14,22 Romans 3:17 talks about “the Way”, and how “the Way” will be perverted!”

Yes, Paul was plagued with what is believed to have been Judeizic teachers who seem to come behind him and undo his spreading of the Gospel. His letter to the Galatians gives evidence to it. Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

Gal 4:9-20 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. Have I, therefore, become your enemy because I tell you the truth? They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

"There is but One Baptism, not three (which the RCC added into the Bible). There are three that witness, the water, the blood and the Spirit, and One in whom we are Baptized, the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ!!!"

Yes, I agree there is only One Baptism!

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jn 5:6-8 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

I agree that the RCC has done much to pervert the word of God. Hybridizing the Pagan ritual days with biblical events has confused many down through the ages. They also ad hear to traditions of men (Popes) versus the word of God. The same thing the Pharisees were condemned for.

Mat 15:1-9 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"— then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'THESE PEOPLE DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "

Thanks for the insight on the name "Christian"!

with_all_humility

WokeWhale said:

If the Christian God exists, then there is no way to disprove the gods of other religions and cultures. No god is more or less plausible than another. Zeus or Thor are just as real as the Christian God. We cannot disprove the Norse gods, or the Greek and Roman gods, and the Oriental and Egyptian gods cannot be ignored. But if God exists because He cannot be disproved, then following the same logic the gods of other religions must exist as well.

I believe the Bible has the only recorded events of a false God's being exposed.

The Prophets of Baal Defeated

1 Kings 18.20-40: So Ahab sent for all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together on Mount Carmel. 21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word. 22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the Lord; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Therefore let them give us two bulls; and let them choose one bull for themselves, cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other bull, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it. 24 Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord; and the God who answers by fire, He is God.”

So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”

Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.”

So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, “O Baal, hear us!” But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made.

And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened." So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.

Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” Then with the stones, he built an altar in the name of the Lord; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood, and said, “Fill four waterpots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.” Then he said, “Do it a second time,” and they did it a second time; and he said, “Do it a third time,” and they did it a third time. So the water ran all around the altar, and he also filled the trench with water.

And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that these people may know that You are the Lord God and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”

Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The Lord, He is God! The Lord, He is God!”

And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!” So they seized them, and Elijah brought them down to the Brook Kishon and executed them there. [1]

Paul Addresses the Areopagus

Acts 18.22-34: Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. [2]

And there are more accounts if you want additional accounts.

[1] The New King James Version. (1982). (1 Ki 18:20–40). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[2] The New King James Version. (1982). (Ac 17:22–34). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

with_all_humility

TheeKnowing said:

What Scripture says salvation is for all people? What do the other nations need to be saved from? Jesus never said the law was done away with, as Matthew 5:17-19 states.

I was following your debate and was hesitant to post during your debate. but I see you have asked the question here. You quoted the book of Hebrews, which clearly outlines how the 1st covenet was done away with. So, I'm not following your logic, you refer to Heb 8.8 where the writer was speaking to Jews who were going back to the keeping of the Old Law (Mosaic Law) and you overlooked verse v7 for if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. So, there were problems with the Mosaic Law, one no one could keep the law perfect, and two it was a covenant not given to all of mankind.

Paul spoke extensively on this Roman so as to educate the Gentiles on the Mosaic Law. Where he revealed...Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience, many will be made righteous. Moreover, the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so, grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:18-21)

In Christ ministry; the Jews mock and rejected him (see John chapter six) John 6:41-51:  The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."  And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"  Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.  It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.  Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.  I am the bread of life.  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and are dead.  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

So, the Jews did not accept Jesus and the Messiah, if they would have listened to the prophets or learn what the prophets had revealed to their ancestors they would have recognized the Christ. In John 12, Christ reveals that he would draw all people or all of mankind to him. Joh 12:30-32:  Jesus answered and said, "This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake.  Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.  And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

The Gospel was to be preached to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles, but it was to be spread to all nations, so that all of mankind was be called to unto repentance. That was Paul's mission to spread the Gospel to the gentiles. Christ Himself stated this in the Great Commission. Mat 28.18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

I also don't who would contend Jesus as being white, that would be historically accurate and what does skin color have anything to with salvation. History has been full of men who have perverted the scriptures but continue to pervert them what is to be gained...only the loss of one's own salvation.

Jesus never uses the exact words of "do away with"...but by fulfilling the Law it was no longer required.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

Mat 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

But to fulfil - To complete the design; to fill up what was predicted; to accomplish what was intended in them. The word “fulfill” also means sometimes “to teach” or “to inculcate,” Col 1:25. The law of Moses contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah. See Heb. 9. These were fulfilled when he came and offered himself a sacrifice to God,“A sacrifice of nobler name. And richer blood than they.” The prophets contained many predictions respecting his coming and death. These were all to be fulfilled and fully accomplished by his life and his sufferings.

Col 1.25: of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,

The Earthly Holy Place

Heb 9

Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation [1]

So, where the first coventent with Moses (who was a type of Christ) was a copy of the things to come. Just as blood was spilled at Mt Sinini making the first covenet rattified between God and the people of Isreal. Christ Himself is the testator of the 2nd covent between mankind and God. The blood of goat and bulls only set asided (atoned) for sin temporarily. But sacrifices of animals had to be made daily and anually for the high priest and the entire tribe of Isreal. Christ blood gives remission of sins, for those of the past ant for those to come. If it was not for the fullfilment of the Old Law through Christ there would be no remission of sins today.

[1] The New King James Version. (1982). (Heb 9:1–28). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

with_all_humility

Evidence said:

with_all_humility said:

with_all_humility
How God created evil? Just look at Adam and Eves life before and after their fall, where thorns and the scorching sun awaited Adam, and the ground did not give way to his shovel anymore like it used to. Eve also bore children in great pain from then on. Being punished, is evil being done to us. Eye for an eye, remember? Tell me, what's the difference between the two evils weather the judge orders your eyes to be plucked out, or a thief does it so he can rob you?

Or what would of been the difference for Job if he knew right off the bat that it was God who allowed Satan to cause him all that evil?
Or take David for an example, he knew God made his first son with Bathsheba sick to death, he knew that God cursed him with evil, and not just his son with Bathsheba, other terrible evil befell David with his older sons too. God brought evil upon David, the only difference is that the evil that God sends upon us is just.
What's the difference if Chaldeans come and rob your livestock, or God sends them to do it? The point here is that God is the Creator of evil, He created evil to punish, to chastise, and to test us, to try our love for Him. Evil is evil, .. who does it, and for what reason is what you are confused about, not that Gods evil is less evil than mans, or Satan's.

with_all_humility said: Mathew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
I used this verse as an example, this is an end of time prophecy Christ gave to his disciples when they asked him what end of time was going to be like. But at the end of time Satan and his angles & demon will be cast into the lake of fire like all sinners.

So being cursed into the everlasting fire is not evil? Matter of fact only God can do such evil. It's justice, but evil none-the-less.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Because of our continuous disobedience to God, He has brought upon us a great burden, a yolk none of us could bear, the Law. None of us could keep it except the One and Only begotten son Word, who became flesh, died on the cross and took the law to the grave with him.

with_all_humility said: So we can clearly see the Evil is the sinful acts of mankind, did you know if you search the Bible (NKJV) Satan is not called evil doer, or the prince of evil. No he is call the Tempter, Satan, being a fallen Angel (they have free will too) is only allowed to tempt man, but when we succumb to our temptations we commit evil

So you don't think if you were to tempt grade-school children with drugs, is not evil?

Lucifer, Satan, the devil, the serpent, Beelzebub: In theological sources, predominately Christian, Beelzebub is sometimes another name for the Devil, similar to Satan. He is known in demonology as one of the seven princes of Hell.

with_all_humility said: Think of it like this, you have a child, you raise he/she to be good and obey the laws. When they are 30 years old then goes and commits a robbery, are you as their creator responsible for their actions?

Only if I was the one who tempted them into committing the robbery. This is why Lucifer/Satan/devil and his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, an evil that only God could create.
I don't think that either understand, or read what I write, seems you keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Evil is evil, and God created evil, no one can create evil like God can. So we are not to fear the devil and his angels, or even those who kill the flesh, but we aught to fear God, because the evil He can bestow upon us is both just, and everlasting.

Why do you think criminals fear the judge, .. you think they fear his 'justice', or the evil that he can bring upon them? Or our children, you think they fear us parents because of our justice, .. or because the evil we can bring upon them? Same with God, sinful men fear His judgement, not His Justice.
For a criminal, justice would be to be set free!

God bless you

"Because of our continuous disobedience to God, He has brought upon us a great burden, a yolk none of us could bear, the Law. None of us could keep it except the One and Only begotten son Word, who became flesh, died on the cross and took the law to the grave with him."

The Law was never meant for man to keep, it was instituted so that we may know what sin is. Romans 7 speaks to this,

Rom 7:7-8: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

"Just look at Adam and Eves life before and after their fall, where thorns and the scorching sun awaited Adam, and the ground did not give way to his shovel anymore like it used to. Eve also bore children in great pain from then on. Being punished is evil being done to us. Eye for an eye, remember? Tell me, what's the difference between the two evils weather the judge orders your eyes to be plucked out, or a thief does it so he can rob you?"

So, do you view accountability as Evil? When a man is put in jail for a crime, is evil being done unto him? Nowhere is judgment said to be Evil, this would be an opinion and not something spoken of in the scriptures.

Or what would have been the difference for Job if he knew right off the bat that it was God who allowed Satan to cause him all that evil?

Just as with Job, God does not allow us to be tempted any more than what we can bear. 1 Cor 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

Again James points out that it is not God who tempts us, and it is our desires that give birth to sin. Not the temptation.

Or take David for an example, he knew God made his first son with Bathsheba sick to death, he knew that God cursed him with evil, and not just his son with Bathsheba, other terrible evil befell David with his older sons too. God brought evil upon David, the only difference is that the evil that God sends upon us is just.

The death of David's son was for his transgressions with Bathsheba. That's what is import about the Old Testament to the Christian today. We can learn the nature of God and how he views things. Judgment is not our place it is God's. So when He holds someone accountable, who are we to say it is wrong? If we do, then we are saying we know better than God and that would be blasphemy.

Also, in the account of David's child dying notice how he quickly goes about like nothing happened after the passing of his son. I believe this is because he knew his child was in paradise. So, no evil befell the child.

2Sam 12:22-23: And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

What's the difference if Chaldeans come and rob your livestock, or God sends them to do it? The point here is that God is the Creator of evil, He created evil to punish, to chastise, and to test us, to try our love for Him. Evil is evil...who does it, and for what reason is what you are confused about, not that Gods evil is less evil than man's, or Satan's.

Again you are confused between righteous judgment and evil, and God has used or allowed evil nations to punish Israel, but just has God passes judgment, he is also merciful and long-suffering. As so many times pointed out in the scriptures it is mankind and his sins which are evil.

Psa 28:3: Do not take me away with the wicked and with the workers of iniquity, who speak peace to their neighbors, but evil is in their hearts.

Psa 34:16: The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Pro 13:21: Evil pursues sinners, But, to the righteous, good shall be repaid.

Ecc 8:12: Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him.

Ecc 9:3: This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that, they go to the dead.

Ecc 12:14: For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

Mar 7:21-23: For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Rom 1:30: (Men are) backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

So you don't think if you were to tempt grade-school children with drugs, is not evil? (Yes, I would consider such a thing as being wrong)

Lucifer, Satan, the devil, the serpent, Beelzebub: In theological sources, predominately Christian, Beelzebub is sometimes another name for the Devil, similar to Satan. He is known in demonology as one of the seven princes of Hell.

with_all_humility said: Think of it like this, you have a child, you raise he/she to be good and obey the laws. When they are 30 years old then goes and commits a robbery, are you as their creator responsible for their actions?

Exactly, that's why God is not Evil, he did not cause or make Adam and Eve eat of the fruit.

Only if I was the one who tempted them into committing the robbery. This is why Lucifer/Satan/devil and his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, an evil that only God could create.

Actually, Lucifer is referred to a morning star or day star, not as Satan. Isa 14.12

I don't think that either understand or read what I write, seems you keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Evil is evil, and God created evil, no one can create evil like God can. So we are not to fear the devil and his angels, or even those who kill the flesh, but we ought to fear God because the evil He can bestow upon us is both just, and everlasting.

Oviously, your definition of evil and mine are different, I understand how one can view matters of judgment as bad or evil. However, just because we view them that way does not make it evil.

Why do you think criminals fear the judge, .. you think they fear his 'justice', or the evil that he can bring upon them? Or our children, you think they fear us parents because of our justice, .. or because the evil we can bring upon them? Same with God, sinful men fear His judgment, not His Justice.
For a criminal, justice would be to be set free!

Whether a criminal, ourselves or our children. The person on the receiving end of judgment usually does not like what they are about to receive. However, that does not constitute evil.

May you and yours be blessed richly by Him.

Evidence

@with_all_humility yes my friend, we do see "evil" differently.

Evil is relative, you have to view it "from the one suffering the evil" perspective and you will see it doesn't matter who creates it, it's the same evil.

God bless you.

MayCaesar

If you believe that the Christian god is real based on what the Christian religion tells you, then you also have to accept the existence of the gods from all other religions: Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, Odin... But at the same time Christian religion claims that only one god exists. Hence we come to the contradiction: the god cannot be real just because a religion claims it is real.

If you have some other reasons to believe that Christian god is real, other than what Christianity says about him, then please list those reasons, so we could address them. For the lack of the explicit arguments for its existence, it is reasonable to employ Russell's logic and assume that Russell's teapot (the god) does not exist.

Royalty

Judaism said:

Not the Christian god, the Jewish one.

Not the Jew-ish one. The God of Israel. Not the god of all naitons or the god of the Jew-ish. The God of Israel & Israel only. The Jew-ish god doesn't exist.

Evidence

MayCaesar said:

If you believe that the Christian god is real based on what the Christian religion tells you, then you also have to accept the existence of the gods from all other religions: Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, Odin... But at the same time Christian religion claims that only one god exists. Hence we come to the contradiction: the god cannot be real just because a religion claims it is real.

If you have some other reasons to believe that Christian god is real, other than what Christianity says about him, then please list those reasons, so we could address them. For the lack of the explicit arguments for its existence, it is reasonable to employ Russell's logic and assume that Russell's teapot (the god) does not exist.

Well of course if I accepted the Christian god, I would have to accept the existence of the gods from all other religions: Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, Jesus, Mary, Odin...
But for me and my house there is just One God, the Infinite and Eternal "I Am" who through His son Word saved me, and those who believe in him as Jesus Christ our Savior. Not the Christian sun-god Jesus, but the "Word" who became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

Here, try to learn more about this "Christian Nation" and who they have always worshipped:

Mr_Bombastic

@Pogue

Nothing physical can create itself. The law of causality states that every event, everything that exists, was caused by something else. All of science is based on this understanding. God is not physical, and does not require a creator. Bottom line. A primal cause, that was not caused by something else is requited, since you cannot have an infinite regression of causes.

Arguer

God is not real. He is just one of many easy explanations for how the universe was created before we had enough of an advance in science and technology to discover the truth. All of you are just rambling about how your version of a deity or deities is the true one, but in reality, none of you are more right than the other. Humanity made the gods you speak of, not the other way around.

Arguer

He has been written so that he conveniently doesn't need to be created, and is outside of space and time and out of human detection. In that sense, he doesn't exist. However, people want a deity or deities to exist so badly because if gods don't exist, then that probably means there is no afterlife, and everyone they care about is gone forever when they die, along with themselves. That is another reason people believe in deities.

Evidence

Arguer said:

God is not real. He is just one of many easy explanations for how the universe was created before we had enough of an advance in science and technology to discover the truth. All of you are just rambling about how your version of a deity or deities is the true one, but in reality, none of you are more right than the other. Humanity made the gods you speak of, not the other way around.

Arguer said:

He has been written so that he conveniently doesn't need to be created, and is outside of space and time and out of human detection. In that sense, he doesn't exist. However, people want a deity or deities to exist so badly because if gods don't exist, then that probably means there is no afterlife, and everyone they care about is gone forever when they die, along with themselves. That is another reason people believe in deities.

@Arguer said: Humanity made the gods you speak of, not the other way around.

Yes, the tens of thousands of gods that man made, including the three Christian gods, so what? Aren't you even a bit interested in knowing who created man/humanity?

Is Biological-Evolution your story? Because even the Priests in that religion admit that "Evolution/Speciation never happens and cannot happen!" .. so why would anyone join that religion, right?

God doesn't exist in the sense of physical creation simply because then He would be just another god in creation. God is NOT a being, but the "Ground of Being"! All 'things', .. that is all created things exist In Him, but His creation is not a part of who God is. God is Infinite and Eternal like you said above; "is outside of space and time", but Not out of human detection.
Not that God is Infinite, but Infinite IS God; The Infinite and Eternal Spirit Mind "I Am"

You see we were created in His image, but not the physical part of us, that part is just a tent for us, for our spirit/mind to possess. It's just like God has to use a body through which He communicates with us, He created a body out of quantum dust particles for us to use. And what we do with this body determines who we are.

Our creation is something like the movie CHAPPiE:

The End of all time is near, and Satan has just about brainwashed us all with his lies, started with Eve 6,000 years ago, and still using the same twisting of Gods Word today. This is why you are confused, and it's not your fault my friend, we have all been MK-Ultra'd, Indoctrinated, Programmed with lies.. This is why we must help each other out and what better place than here on the best Debating sight on the net., .. like my dear friend @Erfisflat, God used him and his wonderful and polite persistence to bring me down from an illusionary sci-fi universe, with a Globe planet that we are made to believe we are on, .. down to Flat Earth, the one our Creator fixed up and put us on.

You see that movie CHAPPiE ? This is mans dream, hoping to somehow escape Gods judgement coming on earth, so Lucifer's minions, his new chosen nation that he deluded with lies to a point where they will do just about anything for him are spearheading some really Apocalyptic Agendas.
Here is an example how they worship Satan, and his version of science and technology:

.. and to reward them, Satan gave them his kingdom that he took from us, now they have all the gold, the land, the governments of this World are all under Lucifer's control who uses his minions to rule over us, .. all because they have accepted the offer that Jesus refused:

Mathew 4:9 And he (Satan) said to Him (Jesus), “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’" 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

So now they do Satan's bidding, the number one of which is: "human sacrifice" which they achieve by abortion, murdering all those going on Social Security, all peoples of darker color skin under the conspiracy called "Evolution", which makes it easier for them to kill us since they consider us animals. And of course through major events like starting Wars, like they did WWII, and just about every war since then. Imagine the joy in Satan when he was offered over 70 million human lives just in WWII!? That was just a gift offering, now they have to continue the tithing, which is something like 10% a month.

Nazism, then there is the Communism, and just about every ism's is orchestrated by these minions of Lucifer. You heard of the Agendas for the 21'st Century right? Agenda 21, and now 2030, which is a gift-offering to Satan; 6.5 billion lives from the 7 billion human-animals living on Earth, which they are paying up with things like the: "You Have Cancer" initiative, where they build Cancer Hospitals even for children, where they inject us with deadly chemicals and zap us with ultra high radiation by X-rays till we get cancer and die a slow agonizing death which can take a child anywhere from 6 months, to 6 years to die. The more suffering, the more joy it brings them, and their god Lucifer.

Anyways, it is time we all seek the One True, and Only Possible Infinite and Eternal God "I Am", and Him you will not find in any organized Religion of today.
First we must seek the truth, which I have found in the Bible through Gods son Word, who now is also known as Jesus Christ. Remember; "Seek and you will find, knock and it shall be opened up for you!" don't take the one that comes on a silver platter offered by the Churches of today: "Say these words, and you are now officially saved" you have to do this yourself, and if you get stuck, pray! If you're sincere, God will send someone to help you. For now, I'm here and along with my Friend Erfisflat, you have a very good start to see at least a little light. But you know what even a small spark can do in a dry forest, right? And the forest is really dry.
Just remember, Gods Word first, and if anyone teaches "another Doctrine (like the Trinity for instance) don't listen, and get away from such a ones!

Arguer

No entity or being created humanity. We are the product of evolution, a scientifically-proven process that changes organisms over time. If you want actual proof of this, of which there is an abundance, here you go:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-bacteria-can-tell-us-about-human-evolution-20171205
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/
https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution.
https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-this-amazing-video-shows-evolution-happening-in-just-days

Evidence

Arguer said:

No entity or being created humanity. We are the product of evolution, a scientifically-proven process that changes organisms over time. If you want actual proof of this, of which there is an abundance, here you go:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-bacteria-can-tell-us-about-human-evolution-20171205
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/
https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution.
https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-this-amazing-video-shows-evolution-happening-in-just-days

What? Are you serious @Arguer or you just want to argue? (noticed I made a funny right there, .. want to argue)

The first one is: "What bacteria can tell us about human evolution"? Are you serious? Has any Evo-scientist observed a bacteria turning into anything other than a bacteria, let alone turn into a human, .. LOL.

Let's see what you have here next:
- When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 158 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt.

From paleontology? They mean Peleoartist's no? All Paleontologists do is dig up graves and steal peoples loved one's skull and bones, and only God knows what they do with it. I heard they drink blood out of the skulls, who knows what Satanist do with all them skull & bones they rob from graves? But now Peleoartist, that I can see because they're the ones who actually do the speciating. From skulls to the New Species!

Image result for pic of common ancestors lucy

from this a Peleoartist evolves this

Genetics? They play with genes and mess up our fruits and vegetables to last years, and taste like plastic which gives us cancer

Zoology? You heard of Ota Benga and the "Human Zoo Experiments" These guys can't even tell the difference between an gorilla and a human. They should all be arrested.

Ah yes molecular biology, that's where they take two bars of plutonium, one in one hand and the other in the other hand, and they say: "Look ma, we split the atoms" lol. If any of these guys established evolutions truth without reasonable doubt, then they would know where to find one of those mysterious 'Common Ancestors"? So far scientists in either paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology or in any other fields have spotted these elusive creatures that supposedly gave rise to 8 million, not one, not 100 but eight million living species. I mean come on, if they claim to have proven evolution, where is One, just one of these little suckers so we could watch them speciate, then place a tracker on them, and with all them thousands of satellites up in imaginary space, they could track them, and find out where they're all hiding?
Hey buddy @Erfisflat you think maybe that these billions of common ancestors that Evolutionist cannot find for the life of them, are hiding out in Antarctica? You know, right after they give rise to two new species, they take off to Antarctica? Or maybe Atlantis?

- Today that battle has been won everywhere—except in the public imagination.

May I suggest increasing the fluoride in their water, and heavier chem-trailing? I mean my God, you guys have done just about everything to brainwash us, almost every show there is the Globe, and as soon as an animal come on a TV show, it's all about how they evolved their feet, their teeth over the millions and billions years

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy.

Why would ANYONE need to be persuaded by that? It is a flawed and poorly supported fantasy, even an infant can tell the difference between animals and humans. 2.5 billion years of evolving and they can't even find One, just one living common ancestor that gave rise to 8 million living species. What have they been doing, looking in the blood of other animals maybe they are hiding in their genes?

OK what we have next here?

- How stuff works

Life Science / Evolution
Neanderthals Were Actually Prehistoric Picassos

New research shows that homo sapiens weren't the first folks to decorate their caves with artwork. Neanderthals actually did it thousands of years earlier

Now why would Neanderthals live in dark cave when their cousins are right outside living in the fresh air, under some nice bushes!? What, for protection? I thought they had bigger brains than the gorillas, and all them other monkeys? Besides their common ancestors have all disappeared.
And this supposed to convince us of Evolution? Wow, they are desperate.
Wait a minute, where was this picture taken, what country? Because my older brothers used to go into caves and paint primitive looking pictures and leave some old broken pottery, and when the paleontologist came around, they would lead them into the caves and get some money for it. There should be a bunch of urine stains mixed in with the painting, they did that to give it that rustic look. I am being serious.

Next we have: This Amazing Video Shows Bacteria Evolving in Just 10 Days
Wow, .. from bacteria to, .. umm, .. what are those, .. little lizards? No, it looks like a flee-circus! Hey buddy Erfisflat, what do you make out of that, a flee circus right? In only 10 days too!

Ah, never mind buddy, this is what evolution they're talking about:
Researchers have filmed E. coli growing in a giant petri dish laced with antibiotics to show just how easy it is for bacteria become antibiotic resistant.

Shoot, .. I was hoping for little monkeys or something, instead, the bacteria turned into .. umm, .. supper bacteria. I have always been asking for a video of speciation, and there it is! Now we're convinced on Evolution right my Creationist friends?

frame

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