Should the wall be build to keep away immigrants?

MayCaesar

@all4actt

The experts who have a vested interest in the wall being built. Of course ICE, Homeland Security and others would advocate for building one, as it would make their job easier. It does not mean that it is for the good of the country, however.

I have not seen much advocacy for the wall from experts that do not stand to gain anything from it, and those are the experts one should pay the most amount of attention to.

CYDdharta

MayCaesar said:

@TKDB

The political system in this country is based on the principle of decentralisation: the country is split into multiple states, each state is split into multiple counties, and each county is split into multiple municipalities - with each individual unit having a large degree of independence. The federal government does not get to dictate individual cities whether they can provide a safe harbor for specific groups of people or not. If you do not like sanctuary cities, then you are free not to live in them - but you do not get to tell those who do want to live in them to abolish their sanctuary policies.

When will people finally realise that the world is not centered at them, and their individual preferences do not define how the entire humanity should work? Such a simple thought, yet so few people get it...

So cities can decide whether or not to allow, say, abortion clinics to operate within their limits.  Or which EPA regulations will apply within their limits.  Or whether or not their residents can own handguns.  (That one has  already been tried and adjudicated.  They can't.)

MayCaesar

@CYDdharta

Gun rights are protected by the Constitution, hence they cannot be infringed upon by individual cities. As for abortion clinics or EPA regulations, yes, I do not see any reason to deny municipalities the right to introduce their own rules. If people in a city vote for the administration that chooses to outlaw all abortion clinics, then I will respect this decision from the decentralisation perspective, even if I disagree with it.

Centralisation is a double-edged sword. You do not want individual cities to be able to function as sanctuary cities today. Tomorrow a new administration may choose to declare the entire US territory a sanctuary, and you bet you will then want individual cities to be able to not comply with the rule.

Everyone is against decentralisation, as long as they agree with the federal law in question. Things change quite a bit when we start talking about the federal laws that they do not approve of.

sidd2201

I am in support of building the wall. 
Border security is always important. And United States have not hundred but thousands of illegal immigrants from the south border. 
Building a wall is justified.
People are saying that it makes the work of the officials but it does not. Amount of illegal immigrants trying to enter USA is far greater that what these officials can control. 
Wall will just help them.

CYDdharta

MayCaesar said:

@CYDdharta

Gun rights are protected by the Constitution, hence they cannot be infringed upon by individual cities. As for abortion clinics or EPA regulations, yes, I do not see any reason to deny municipalities the right to introduce their own rules. If people in a city vote for the administration that chooses to outlaw all abortion clinics, then I will respect this decision from the decentralisation perspective, even if I disagree with it.

SCOTUS has long ago determined that immigration is the province of the federal government alone.

The Constitution of the United States is no such instrument. The passage of laws which concern the admission of citizens and subjects of foreign nations to our shores belongs to Congress, and not to the States. It has the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations: the responsibility for the character of those regulations, and for the manner of their execution, belongs solely to the national government. If it be otherwise, a single State can, at her pleasure, embroil us in disastrous quarrels with other nations.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/92/275

ZeusAres42

There does need to be measured against illegal immigration, yes, but not all immigration entirely no. FYI, the USA is built on immigration.

As for a wall to keep illigal immigrants out I am not convinced that this is a pragmatic approach.

all4actt

@MayCaesar

Don't we want to make their jobs easier?

 I think that is the whole point of building the wall.

th3on1y0n3

A wall needs to be built. No one thinks it will be 100% effective but it is a deterrent and it will stop the average illegal alien.

Why we need to stop the crossings of economic migrants,
- America has the most lenient border laws and immigration requirements. We don't require a level of education, we don't require a garantee, and we don't require English. But every country taking in mass amounts of people needs to know who it is they are letting in. It is a fact that less than 10% actually qualify as alysees. Catch and release yielded a court appearance rate of about 3% of all dates given. When people disappear into the interior that's a problem. When aliens take illegal employment it creates a competition with Americans for wages in a downward trend. We also need to know that no one is entering to harm America i.e. Islamic extremists, ms13, Russian intelligence. Americans right now pay the legal fees fund the English classes pay for the public education of the kids here illegally and then have to foot the bill to deport those here illegally. In other words illegals cost more than they benefit. We also have to think economically how mass flows of illegals affect geography. If you have a glass of lemonade and you place it under a faucet with water trickling into it pretty soon your thirst quenching beverage is just a glass of water. Smae can be said about South America. If America is lemonade and south Americans continue to flood and invade our country in regulated pretty soon we will have. 3rd world uncivilized low skilled uneducated country. We need more scholars and less charity cases. 

Now consider the fact that these people crossing illegally know what they're doing is illegal. They do so to skip the line of all the law abiding immigrants, disrespect our laws, aim to game the system, and overload our immigration courts backlog them and make it harder and more difficult for law abiding people to get in. Had they not started flooding and making fraudulent claims showed up for court dates we wouldn't have to be so hard on them now but the fact of the matter is that a. We aren't the world's welfare system regardless of the nation's founding. And no the statue of liberties quote is not an America thing. The statue is not even American it was a gift from France. 

What it boils down to is this, America is a great place. Millions dream of coming here. But no country could be expected to have an open door policy not even to the most desperate of all people. We need a secure border as secure as we can get it. And every little bit helps. It's sad to see people suffer but it's not realistic to expect every sob story to be admitted. Every country has the right to secure thier lands, every country has the right to accept or Deny anyone for any reason including refugees and migrants. Including kids including women, and patients seeking specialized medicine and procedures. That's just life and how the world is. And no country should be expected to foot the bill for anyone they want a court appearance they need to supply thier own attorney, they want to live here they need to make it on thier own. They want to enter illegally they can get put right back on a plane and sent home. A borderwall would cut illegal crossings drastically and in the most urgent of areas which is poor uneducated economic migrants and children. They need to see there isn't an easy way in anymore.

MayCaesar

@all4actt

I do not, especially if the wall is funded with my money. Border security workers go through a very rigorous training and get paid handsomely for doing their job; this is not supposed to be a resort, and they should be expected to put in a lot of hard work. 

Illegal immigration is not a significant problem in the US. The country has lasted just fine without a wall for nearly 250 years now; why sudden need, at the time when we enjoy the highest quality of life anywhere on the planet in human history? It is like things are going so well that politicians can no longer sell anything important to people, so they come up with new scares to get people to support them.

I do not want a wall. I do not want a "Green New Deal". I do not want tariffs. I do not want reparations. I just want the government to mind its own business.

all4actt

@MayCaesar

You may not want a wall.  That's fine.  I still think anything that makes law enforcements jobs eaisier is worth it.

Politically they may be using it as a scare tactic but that doesn't change the realities that this is something law enforcement has been wanting for a long time.  Prior to Trump's call for the wall (which is more a fence) The same 700 miles of fencing had bi-partisan support in the House and the Senate in 2014 during Obama's administration.

I don't disagree with you about the Green new Deal b/c it simply doesn't make since nor is it even practiced by the majority of the house members who voted for it.  It is more rhetoric than reality.

Nor do I disagree with you about Reparations.  I just don't see how it would work or how it would solve anything.  Also, I yet have not heard  of any good plans of how it would work or any good arguments about what it would solve.

I think there is a place for government, although in a lot of ways it has become way to big, invasive and over regulated.  Probably more than half the regulations have more to do with charging businesses and people to raise money for government than they do with any health or safety concerns.  A good example would be a regulation here that requires a farmer, private or corporate, to pay for a permit everytime they want to turn their soil.  

CYDdharta

MayCaesar said:

@all4actt

I do not, especially if the wall is funded with my money. Border security workers go through a very rigorous training and get paid handsomely for doing their job; this is not supposed to be a resort, and they should be expected to put in a lot of hard work.

This is a truly asinine position to take.  The wall doesn't make Border Patrol's job easy, it helps make their agents more efficient and effective.  Why would you want Border Patrol's agents to be less efficient?

https://www.cbp.gov/frontline/wall-construction-continues-part-holistic-approach-stop-illegal-immigration

Illegal immigration is not a significant problem in the US. The country has lasted just fine without a wall for nearly 250 years now; why sudden need, at the time when we enjoy the highest quality of life anywhere on the planet in human history? It is like things are going so well that politicians can no longer sell anything important to people, so they come up with new scares to get people to support them.

This is hardly a new problem.  Reagan was trying to deal with it in the 1980s.  Congress has been funded border fencing since 1996.  The problem has been exacerbated in the last few years.  It's impossible to argue that this is NOT a problem.

Beckett_the_Democrat

Over the years, some people have failed to point out what immigration does for our nation! Immigrants from other nations illegal or not, help the United States in many ways. The more ethnic variety in a nation, the more excellent art, music, food, and clothing. Along with cultural differences, without these people, many jobs would be filled in to create a much stronger economy than before. Also, many people that illegally immigrate into the United States are people fleeing violence and poverty. These people cannot spend massive amounts of time and money to get into the United States legally, because they need to provide for their family. This wall is truly unethical and is not acceptable. 

 Beckett Age 11

MichaelElpers

@Beckett_the_Democrat. Did you ever start to think how people crossing illegally effects those trying to enter legally.  Without illegal immigrants we could get in more legal immigrants.  Its not fair that people get to jump the line just because they are connected to the continental United states.  Do you care more about people from mexico than those from India?...is that not unethical?

Also the wall wouldnt prevent refugees from coming to the U.S. it just means they would be vetted at the border to ensure they are indeed a refugee.

kenpage

@sidd2201 There is very little evidence that this is a big problem.  Much more evidence suggests that Illegal immigration has been declining for years,  Immigrants actually commit fewer crimes than the legal population and that illegals do not take jobs away from American citizens, in fact, they are good for the economy (see my other post here which includes support for this from the George W. Bush Institute).

kenpage

@all4actt ; There is very little evidence that this is a big problem.  Much more evidence suggests that Illegal immigration has been declining for years,  Immigrants actually commit fewer crimes than the legal population and that illegals do not take jobs away from American citizens, in fact, they are good for the economy (see my other post here which includes support for this from the George W. Bush Institute).

MayCaesar

@CYDdharta

If this problem has been present since 1980-s, then what warrants action now, if we have been fine for the last 30+ years? Besides, the "problem" as it is, again, has been present for as long as the US existed as a nation; people were coming here in the 18-th century across the border just as much as they do now. It was not seen as a problem by anyone, until in early XX century Woodrow Wilson suddenly started seeing problems everywhere and using governmental action to allegedly remedy them.

Seems to be just another case of a government selling people a story in order to justify soaring budgets to me. Nothing new under the Sun.

ZeusAres42

I think it be worth remembering that we're talking about illegal immigrants. Not all immigrants altogether.