An exploration of the Second Amendment

TKDB

@John_C_87

You don't have an argument.

You're apparently going out of your to reinforce your individual whole truth rhetoric.

Just as you have done, for how many other forums now? 

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Are you a resident of the United States? 

I ask because of this:

"An exploration of the Second Amendment"

What are you hoping to gain, through an exploration of the Second Amendment, if you're not a resident of the U.S?

I'm a resident, and my exploration of the Second Amendment, has educated me on its failure, as it's currently written.

It's fair to the gun owners, the extremist gun owners, the NRA, and the weapons manufacturing companies.

But it's unfair to the rest of the public, who doesn't own a gun?

TKDB

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

"What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

BY JOHN GRAMLICH

The recent mass shootings in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio – along with a spate of shootings in Chicago – have brought renewed attention to deadly gun violence in the United States. As President Donald Trump and lawmakers on Capitol Hill contemplate policy responses, here are 10 common questions about gun deaths in the U.S., with answers based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the FBI and other sources. You can also explore key public opinion findings about gun violence and gun policy in the U.S. by reading our recent roundup. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership

"Gun ownership is the act of owning a gun. In 2018, Small Arms Survey reported that there are over one billion small arms distributed globally, of which 857 million (about 85 percent) are in civilian hands.[1][2]The Small Arms Survey stated that U.S. civilians alone account for 393 million (about 46 percent) of the worldwide total of civilian held firearms.[2] This amounts to "120.5 firearms for every 100 residents."[2]

"The world's armed forces control about 133 million (about 13 percent) of the global total of small arms, of which over 43 percent belong to two countries: the Russian Federation (30.3 million) and China (27.5 million).[1] Law enforcement agencies control about 23 million (about 2 percent) of the global total of small arms.[1] "

"Global distribution of civilian-held firearms

The following data comes from the Small Arms Survey. "

World wide civilian firearms holdings, 2017[3][4]
Countries and territories	Estimate of firearms in civilian possession	Population 2017	Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons

United Kingdom Combined numbers for (England and Wales), (Northern Ireland) and (Scotland).

3,242,000

66,186,000

4.9

United States of America

393,347,000

326,474,000

120.5

TKDB

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris


"Samuel Benjamin Harris (born April 9, 1967) is an American author, public intellectual, blogger, and podcast host primarily known for his criticism of religion, and Islam in particular.[3] His academic background is in philosophy and cognitive neuroscience.[4] His work touches on a wide range of topics, including rationality, religion, ethics, free will, neuroscience, meditation, philosophy of mind, politics, terrorism, and artificial intelligence. He is described as one of the atheistic "Four Horsemen of the Non-Apocalypse", along with Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett.[5] "

Some reference material on Sam Harris.

John_C_87

TKDB said:

@John_C_87

You don't have an argument.
You're apparently going out of your way to reinforce your individual whole truth rhetoric.
Just as you have done, for how many other forums now? 

There is an argument as you are going out of your way to hide the principles that you disagree on.
1 The equality on use of civil responsibility on lethal force.
2. Someone who does not own a gun is not responsible for allowing someone to die by that negligence. Fear motivates within them.
3. Preservation of basic principle.
4. Union between basic principle and legal precedent.

Allowing someone to die by not taking the burden of lethal force as a weight to bear is not Pro-Life.

Blaming the 2nd Amendment, America, Constitution, and United State for illegal law and faulty legislation is not Pro-law.

There are far more threatening changes which have taken place in the principle of family then gun violence to use restriction of liberty as an excuse to make a claim of Pro-Family. Are you clear on what a family is when addressing it in constitutional detail?

 American constitution should not be held out of context to make the practice of illegal complex legislation of law easier. The only whole truth is to be made on basic principle. People like “Vaulk” do not understand as long as confusing principles of laws made out of context to simpler principles. The forum is dissecting grievances filed as public arguments and dissect them looking at depth of ideology in the 2nd Amendment.

TKDB

@John_C_87

I just provided three different reference sources.

That you and,

@ZeusAres42 and whoever else can educate themselves on.

@John_C_87

Those who murdered other's with their lawfully owned, and unlawfully owned guns, deserve the Death Penalty.

Because they took lives, in the shadow, of how the Second Amendment, is currently written.

There are more guns, than citizens in the United States.

There are extremists gun owners, who have enough guns to arm half a platoon, of citizens.

Look at how many guns, that the Vegas shooter, took into his hotel room? 

And then he killed how many citizens, with his lawfully owned guns?

The Second Amendment needs to be changed, to rectify the Vegas shooters actions, as well as the El Paso shooter actions, and the Columbine shooters.

In the military, soldiers get their assigned weapons, from out of an arms room, and then after their training is over, they return their weapons, to their arms rooms. 

That's the difference, between the military, and the random citizen, with a lawfully owned gun, and an unlawfully owned gun.

The militaries weapons are accounted for.

While the rest of the other 400 million plus guns aren't accounted for.

@ZeusAres42

The above points of view are factual, and not fallacies.

Can you please explain, why you view, some of the above, as fallacies? 

John_C_87

(TKDB)I just provided three different reference sources(John-C) that has just proven it is lethal force not guns that are the basic principle in united state for debate. The Second Amendment needs to be changed, to rectify the Vegas shooters actions, as well as the El Paso shooter actions, and the Columbine shooters. there are more guns than people in the United States , (a)

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Not holding an equal portion of lethal force is also malice.

In the military, soldiers get their assigned weapons, from out of an arms room, and then after their training is over, they return their weapons, to their arms rooms. 

Hand-to-hand combat (sometimes abbreviated as HTH or H2H) is a physical confrontation between two or more persons at very short range. Not all arms are kept in the armory.

Because they took lives, in the shadow, of how the Second Amendment, is currently written. The suspect, or convicted uses, or our accused of using lethal force as their own form of punishment without American United State Constitutional separation. Capital punishment is not the threat of a Death Penalty and hosts its own debate as a forum topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-to-hand_combat

 https://www.bustle.com/p/how-many-guns-are-there-in-america-the-statistics-are-staggering-2746615

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111

TKDB

Hey NRA, and the far Right, Pro Gun crowd, seeing as how, you're balking at more gun control laws?

Are you going to volunteer to either to pull Guard Duty, at every business, school, and religious buildings, across the country?

Or might you donate some of your profits, to create some Anti Gun Violence Organizations, across the country, to help to assist, with the gun violence epidemic, that has been plaguing the United States, since 1966? 

John_C_87

TKDB said:

Hey NRA, and the far Right, Pro Gun crowd, seeing as how, you're balking at more gun control laws?

Are you going to volunteer to either to pull Guard Duty, at every business, school, and religious buildings, across the country?

Or might you donate some of your profits, to create some Anti Gun Violence Organizations, across the country, to help to assist, with the gun violence epidemic, that has been plaguing the United States, since 1966? 

https://www.bulletblocker.com/bullet-proof-backpack-shield.html

Vaulk

TKDB said:

Hey NRA, and the far Right, Pro Gun crowd, seeing as how, you're balking at more gun control laws?

Are you going to volunteer to either to pull Guard Duty, at every business, school, and religious buildings, across the country?

We already do.  Some of us open carry when we go about our daily routines and some of us conceal carry when we go about our daily routines.  Either way we volunteered for the training, paid for it, paid for the license, and paid for the gun.  Rest assured if we're at the local business you're at or Church building...we'll be the first to respond if evil comes knocking with a firearm.  As far as Schools go, thousands of Veterans (Who also support the 2A) have volunteered to serve as armed School guards for our Children of America. 

Veterans know that banks and their money are protected with armed guards because they deserve nothing less to protect their assets.

Veterans know that government officials and government buildings are protected with armed guards because they deserve nothing less to protect their assets.

Veterans know that America's Children are more important than our money and government officials and that they deserve armed guards to protect them, there's no asset more important than the lives of our Children.

TKDB

@John_C_87

Are you being serious, with your shared, bulletblocker webpage?

So, should those parents, who maybe, don't own guns, and those parents who lawfully own guns, should maybe, buy those backpacks for their kids? 

Because the laws making gun violence crimes, have failed the citizens, of the United States, because criminals, and offenders with their illegal guns, have killed innocent people?

Because there are more guns, than there are citizens in the United States, 400 million guns, to 329 million citizens?

Because, the Second Amendment, as it's currently written, is failing US citizens, in the 21st century?

And because, the Death Penalty, is failing, as an individual law, and isn't deterring some from killing innocent people, with their lawfully owned guns, and their unlawfully owned guns?

@John_C_87

So your individual response, is a website selling bulletblocker backpacks? 

Thank you, for your continued education, of educating the public, from your individual stance.

TKDB

@Vaulk

A veteran, with a gun, isn't the proper answer.

But, it could be viewed, as a self serving answer, if they are an individual pro gun extremist?

The proper answer?

An amended Second Amendment, updated with the Death Penalty language.

The Second Amendment, as its currently written, is a failure, that benefits, the NRA, the weapons manufacturers in the United States, or abroad, and some of the pro gun extremists.

@Vaulk

I'm going to pose a previously posed question to you:

Might you donate some of your paycheck, to create some Anti Gun Violence Organizations, across the country, to help to assist, with the gun violence epidemic, that has been plaguing the United States, since 1966? 

Being that both of the below entities, apparently balked at more gun control laws, in the news today? 

I asked the NRA, and the far Right Pro Gun crowd, the same question.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

How about you?

You could donate some of your paycheck as well, to create some Anti Gun Violence Organizations, across the country, to help to assist, with the gun violence epidemic, that has been plaguing the United States, since 1966? 

ZeusAres42

@TKDB

Did you know there is a reason why an armed response team attends a gun-related crime incidence with armoury and weaponry? Or were you thinking they just turned up and showed the bad guys their badges and hoped for the best?

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Is this from you, an exploration, into how you rationalize some things?

"Did you know there is a reason why an armed response team attends a gun-related crime incidence with armoury and weaponry?"
"Or were you thinking they just turned up and showed the bad guys their badges and hoped for the best?"

@ZeusAres42

From Discover.com

Did you know that in the United States,  39,773 citizens were killed by guns in 2017? 

And since 1968, 1.625 million U.S. citizens have been killed by guns? 

ZeusAres42

@TKDB

Did you know there is a reason why an armed response team attends a gun-related crime incidence with armoury and weaponry? Or were you thinking they just turned up and showed the bad guys their badges and hoped for the best?

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Is this from you, an exploration, into how you rationalize some things?

"Did you know there is a reason why an armed response team attends a gun-related crime incidence with armoury and weaponry?"
"Or were you thinking they just turned up and showed the bad guys their badges and hoped for the best?"

How about you just answer the question?

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

From Discover.com

Did you know that in the United States,  39,773 citizens were killed by guns in 2017? 

And since 1968, 1.625 million U.S. citizens have been killed by guns? 

I am aware of many tragic things happening and have even argued in previous posts that more could be done to mitigate these incidences. However, your response here indicates you were either not paying attention or refused to pay attention.

Just because someone doesn't agree or completely agree with you make them a lesser person that is somehow unfeeling.

Next, how about now you research information about the amount of criminals being and gun-related crimes being thwarted by good decent people that own guns? Hint: The research is out there. I invite you to find research from both sides of this debate and the present your arguments based on that, providing you are capable of doing so.

CYDdharta

TKDB said:

Did you know that in the United States,  39,773 citizens were killed by guns in 2017?

Wrong.  10,982 citizens were killed by guns in 2017.

TKDB

@CYDdharta

You know what?

No one, ever, should be killed by any gun violence crimes, should they?

Or by any type of crimes to begin with.

TKDB

Isn't that right NRA?

Or the Gun manufacturing companies in the United States, and abroad?

Or the far Right Pro Gun supporters?

No one, ever, should be killed by a gun violence crime, should they? 

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Don't have to answer the question, you're from the United Kingdom.

The Second Amendment, is irrelevant to you. 

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Don't have to answer the question, you're from the United Kingdom.

The Second Amendment, is irrelevant to you. 

Yep, my argument fails because I am from the UK! Sarcasm btw.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Some innocent individuals, in the United States, were killed by guns.

How was your day ZeusAres42?

I'm defending those US citizens, who have been hurt or killed, by gun violence crimes.

What, or who are you defending?

"However, your response here indicates you were either not paying attention or refused to pay attention. 

Just because someone doesn't agree or completely agree with you make them a lesser person that is somehow unfeeling.

Next, how about now you research information about the amount of criminals being and gun-related crimes being thwarted by good decent people that own guns? Hint: The research is out there. I invite you to find research from both sides of this debate and the present your arguments based on that, providing you are capable of doing so."

Vaulk

TKDB said:

@Vaulk

A veteran, with a gun, isn't the proper answer.

What's your premise for this conclusion?  Since updating and changing the laws haven't had the necessary impact on gun violence since gun laws were introduced (Otherwise we wouldn't be having this issue with gun violence today) then what makes you think that changing or updating the law yet again is the solution?  Is there any historical precedence of (In the United States) gun laws affecting the overall outcome of crimes committed with guns?

Also, since we depend entirely upon the police (Professionals who enforce the law through the use or threat of violence with a firearm) for our protection, then why wouldn't we increase the number of professionals with firearms that are readily available to protect us through the use of force with a firearm?  It sounds funny but you can't throw laws at a gunman to stop them from committing violence against an innocent civilian, you can't cite criminal or penal code to someone taking hostages to convince them to stop.  Laws don't serve as a stopping force and in almost all cases involving criminality...they don't prevent anything either.  Laws are designed to keep honest people honest.  

TKDB said:

@Vaulk

An amended Second Amendment, updated with the Death Penalty language.

The Second Amendment, as its currently written, is a failure, that benefits, the NRA, the weapons manufacturers in the United States, or abroad, and some of the pro gun extremists.

The Constitution isn't punitive in nature, there are no criminal penalties in the constitution and never have been.  The constitution of the United States is not and has never been designed to punish anyone save for serving as proof that rights may have been violated in certain cases and that punishment is deserved based on the violation of those rights.

TKDB said:

@Vaulk

I'm going to pose a previously posed question to you:

Might you donate some of your paycheck, to create some Anti Gun Violence Organizations, across the country, to help to assist, with the gun violence epidemic, that has been plaguing the United States, since 1966? 

Being that both of the below entities, apparently balked at more gun control laws, in the news today? 

I asked the NRA, and the far Right Pro Gun crowd, the same question.

Firstly, we all willingly give a portion of our income and business profits to the Government and that portion is specifically designed to fund the Government's efforts to control crime and to maintain law and order within the United States.  Since 1966 the Government has spent increasing amounts of our taxpayer dollars (The money that's supposed to be used to solve law and order issues) to address this issue.  Your own admission is that the gun violence epidemic has been plaguing the U.S. since 1966...do you realize how many laws have been introduced since 1966 to control gun violence?  If this "Plague" still exists today, as you've said it does, then how can you NOT see that the efforts so far have been the wrong efforts?  Writing laws hasn't solved this epidemic obviously so how many more decades are we going to scream for more laws until we realize that they're not making an impact? 

1966: Gun violence becomes and epidemic that plagues america: MORE LAWS, MORE LAWS! 
2019: 53 years later Gun violence is still an epidemic: MORE LAWS, MORE LAWS!

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Some innocent individuals, in the United States, were killed by guns.

How was your day ZeusAres42?

I'm defending those US citizens, who have been hurt or killed, by gun violence crimes.

What, or who are you defending?

I am defending those who were killed or injured as well as those good decent people that decided they no longer wanted to be victims, and some of which saved lives of others by thwarting violence with their own use of guns. Isn't that such a great thing for humanity? Don't you want what's best for humanity?

Moreover, to be consistent with my views being fair and equal I have to try to look at all angles.

ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42 said:

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Some innocent individuals, in the United States, were killed by guns.

How was your day ZeusAres42?

I'm defending those US citizens, who have been hurt or killed, by gun violence crimes.

What, or who are you defending?

I am defending those who were killed or injured as well as those good decent people that decided they no longer wanted to be victims, and some of which saved lives of others by thwarting violence with their own use of guns. Isn't that such a great thing for humanity? Don't you want what's best for humanity?

Moreover, to be consistent with my views being fair and equal I have to try to look at all angles.

I would not be being fair and equal by attacking everyone that possessed Guns.

TKDB

@Vaulk

Because I'm fed up with innocent people being killed by guns, in the United States.

And no pro gun supporter, is going to talk me away from that reality.

The White Nationalists, the far Right Pro gun extremists, or whoever.

Just because a veteran has a gun, their guns overall, haven't made much of a difference, say since 1966 in Texas, and all the way up until this year, have they?

Are you another Sam Harris supporter?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris


"Samuel Benjamin Harris (born April 9, 1967) is an American author, public intellectual, blogger, and podcast host primarily known for his criticism of religion, and Islam in particular.[3] His academic background is in philosophy and cognitive neuroscience.[4] His work touches on a wide range of topics, including rationality, religion, ethics, free will, neuroscience, meditation, philosophy of mind, politics, terrorism, and artificial intelligence. He is described as one of the atheistic "Four Horsemen of the Non-Apocalypse", along with Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett.[5] "

Some reference material on Sam Harris. 

ZeusAres42

@TKDB

Do you not value or respect logic, reason, rationality, philosophy and argumentation? I would think that if you did you would realize by now that the person who is saying the argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is the actual argument being presented by the person.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

I value life, over murder, via gun violence crimes.

Some reference material:

https://www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction

"America's Gun Addiction

Our nation is addicted to guns, with increasingly deadly consequences."

Posted Mar 26, 2018

"Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial.  The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit this time it’ll all work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”  They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior.

When allowed to continue unchecked, addictions destroy lives."

TKDB

@Vaulk

Some reference material:

https://www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction

"America's Gun Addiction

Our nation is addicted to guns, with increasingly deadly consequences."

Posted Mar 26, 2018

"Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial.  The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit this time it’ll all work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”  They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior.

When allowed to continue unchecked, addictions destroy lives."

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Tell the below to the families of the mass shooter victims, and see if they are viewing things from your perspective?

"I am defending those who were killed or injured as well as those good decent people that decided they no longer wanted to be victims, and some of which saved lives of others by thwarting violence with their own use of guns. Isn't that such a great thing for humanity? Don't you want what's best for humanity?

Moreover, to be consistent with my views being fair and equal I have to try to look at all angles."

I'll wait while you get a press conference together, in the United Kingdom, and I'll watch you on the BBC? 

ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42 said:

@TKDB

Do you not value or respect logic, reason, rationality, philosophy and argumentation? I would think that if you did you would realize by now that the person who is saying the argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is the actual argument being presented by the person.

I take that as a no then. Your latest response TKDB just confirmed that. Considering you continue to bypass relevant stuff, post irrelevant woo woo, and then present an argument about the person's, as well as have the nerve to argue that other people who don't agree you even in part are somehow a bad person; absolutely disgraceful behaviour. @TKDB

CYDdharta

TKDB said:

@CYDdharta

No one, ever, should be killed by any gun violence crimes, should they?

That's the wrong question.  The right question is "how many thousands of lives were saved by people who were able to defend themselves".

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

You can view my words, anyway that you wish ZeusAres42? 

You're the individual, who gets to live with your individual way of thinking.

The U.S. citizens killed by thousands of gun violence crimes, each and every day, that's the reality thats in the Nationwide news.

Is this the irrelevant woo woo, that you're talking about?

That I shared with you?


(Some reference material:

https://www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/time-out/201803/americas-gun-addiction

"America's Gun Addiction

Our nation is addicted to guns, with increasingly deadly consequences."

Posted Mar 26, 2018

"Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial.  The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit this time it’ll all work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”  They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior.

When allowed to continue unchecked, addictions destroy lives.")

None of the U.S. citizens, should be dead, but they are, and their victimizers, killed them with a gun. 

So those lost lives, are relevant to me.

@ZeusAres42

Please, show me, "what I posted as irrelevant woo woo? "

"I take that as a no then. Your latest response TKDB just confirmed that. Considering you continue to bypass relevant stuff, post irrelevant woo woo, and then present an argument about the person's, as well as have the nerve to argue that other people who don't agree you even in part are somehow a bad person; absolutely disgraceful behaviour. @TKDB. "

ZeusAres42

CYDdharta said:

TKDB said:

@CYDdharta

No one, ever, should be killed by any gun violence crimes, should they?

That's the wrong question.  The right question is "how many thousands of lives were saved by people who were able to defend themselves".

This is the other question he needs to contemplate on if he wants to be fair and equal. However, I can't see him doing this any time soon.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

So here's the gun ownership truth?

"The right question is "how many thousands of lives were saved by people who were able to defend themselves"."

I don't need to contemplate anything to any pro gun extremist? 

When innocent people get killed by gun, that's not fair, or rqual to the victims, or their families, is it?

"This is the other question he needs to contemplate on if he wants to be fair and equal. However, I can't see him doing this any time soon."

The Gun control conversation both in the United States, and the United Kingdom, shows how many place, their guns on a pedestal, above the rest of the public?

The pro gun extremists?

The criminals, and offenders, with their illegal guns?

Maybe even the NRA?

The Far Right gun supporters? 

And maybe even the gun manufacturers themselves? 



And apparently there's no such thing as a gun owner, being addicted to guns?

The Doctor in that article, doesn't know what she's talking about I guess? 

TKDB

@Vaulk

@ZeusAres42

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/19/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting-trump-congress-must-/ ;

"Face it: We're addicted to guns"

3' 

Nikolas Cruz appears in court for a status hearing before Broward Circuit Judge Elizabeth Scherer in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Monday, Feb. 19, 2018. Cruz is charged with killing 17 people and wounding many others in Wednesday’s attack at Marjory Stoneman ... more >

Face it: We're addicted to guns

"Thoughts and prayers won't curb lethal addiction

By Renee Garfinkel - - Monday, February 19, 2018

ANALYSIS/OPINION:

President Trump generally responds to mass shootings by talking about mental illness. As a psychologist, I note that he gets it almost right. He just fails to correctly identify the patient.

The patient is America, and the illness is addiction. Our nation is addicted to guns, with increasingly deadly consequences.

Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial. The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit it this time, everything will work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior."

"The neuroscience of addiction is the same regardless of the addictive behavior or substance. The brain doesn’t care if it’s porn addiction, shopping addiction, cigarette addiction, video game addiction or whatever you like, including gun addiction.

Here’s how it works: Dopamine is the brain’s neurotransmitter that is released when you expect a reward – when you expect pleasure. The brain is flooded with dopamine when a shooter gets ready to fire a gun. Firing a gun releases endorphins – the pleasure hormones – the same ones we experience with sex, with taking certain substances, and with other enjoyable activities. Pleasure (BANG! and endorphins) follows anticipation so quickly and reliably, that the brain easily learns to connect the psychological loop: guns – dopamine – pleasure/endorphins. The psychological loop is compelling, and some brains become preoccupied with seeking more dopamine. More guns. "

"The desire for more is another defining characteristic of addiction. The addict develops tolerance and requires more to get the same rush. Americans own more guns in absolute and relative terms than any other nation. We own about half the world’s guns although we are barely 5 percent of the world’s population. "

"And some of us own a great many guns, indeed. Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas concert murderer who committed the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, was found to have an arsenal of 47 deadly weapons. That put him in the 3 percent of gun owners who own large numbers of guns. This is exactly what addiction theory predicts - some users will seek more guns, bigger guns, with more firepower, in order to achieve the feelings they seek.

When President Trump visited the hospital where some of the victims of the latest school shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, were being treated, he verbally paid his respects to the doctors. A more meaningful show of respect from the president would be heeding the doctors’ words about gun policy.

Organizations representing nearly half a million physicians and medical students, including family physicians, pediatricians and psychiatrists, called on the president and Congress to do the following: "

"• Call gun violence what it is, a national public health epidemic.

• Fund appropriate research at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as part of the FY 2018 Omnibus spending package.

• Establish constitutionally appropriate restrictions on the manufacturing and sale, for civilian use, of large-capacity magazines and firearms with features designed to increase their rapid and extended killing capacity.

We need real leaders to take action. Thoughts and prayers alone won’t cure the country’s lethal addiction. "

So who knows better?

The two of you, or an actual Doctor? 

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

So here's the gun ownership truth?

"The right question is "how many thousands of lives were saved by people who were able to defend themselves"."

I don't need to contemplate anything to any pro gun extremist? 

When innocent people get killed by gun, that's not fair, or rqual to the victims, or their families, is it?

"This is the other question he needs to contemplate on if he wants to be fair and equal. However, I can't see him doing this any time soon."

The Gun control conversation both in the United States, and the United Kingdom, shows how many place, their guns on a pedestal, above the rest of the public?

The pro gun extremists?

The criminals, and offenders, with their illegal guns?

Maybe even the NRA?

The Far Right gun supporters? 

And maybe even the gun manufacturers themselves? 



And apparently there's no such thing as a gun owner, being addicted to guns?

The Doctor in that article, doesn't know what she's talking about I guess? 

I didn't say that. CYDharta said that. I said that's the other question you need to consider if you want to be fair to all good people. 

If you're going to quote me then quote what I actually said you dishonest piece of sh*t.

Also the fallacy you committed was calling someone a gun extremist because they asked you to be fair to all good people.

Any way, when you do this your just making yourself look bad and foolish. Most of us here are actual adults and can see you for what you really are.

This also now where I say good-bye to you. My time is too valuable to waste it on someone as unreasonable and badly motivated as you.

TKDB

@Vaulk

@ZeusAres42

https://www.businessinsider.com/nra-told-doctors-to-stay-in-their-lane-2018-11

"The NRA told doctors to 'stay in their lane' when it comes to gun deaths — and doctors are posting furious, devastating responses"

• Just hours before the deadly shooting inThousand Oaks, California, the NRA tweeted out an angry rebuttal of a position paper authored by the American College of Physicians.
• The paper in question wrestled with how to reduce gun injuries in the US and called for a "multifaceted and comprehensive approach to reducing firearm violence that is consistent with the Second Amendment."
• The NRA blasted the paper, telling doctors to "stay in their lane."
• Doctors quickly pushed back, saying that gun violence is very much their business, since they're the ones who stop the bleeding and save lives after people get shot.
• One doctor asked, "where are you when I'm having to tell all those families their loved one has died?"

The National Rifle Association, the most powerful gun lobby in the country, is under fire from doctors for a Tweet that many are calling insensitive and ill-reasoned.

On Wednesday, just hours before a gunmanstormed into a bar in California and killed 12 people, the NRA went after the American College of Physicians on Twitter for writing about policies that could reduce the number of deaths and injuries from firearms. "

From the NRA via Twitter:

"Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane. Half of the articles in Annals of Internal Medicine are pushing for gun control. Most upsetting, however, the medical community seems to have consulted NO ONE but themselves. https://www.nraila.org/articles/20181102/surprise-physician-group-rehashes-same-tired-gun-control-policies …

NRA-ILA | Surprise: Physician Group Rehashes Same Tired Gun Control Policies

Everyone has hobbies. Some doctors’ collective hobby is opining on firearms policy. Half of th 

"The tweet came shortly ahead of the US' 307th mass shooting of the year, and a day before the Centers for Disease Control and Preventionrevealed that gun deaths are on the rise across the country, at rates not seen in a decade.

The paper in question wrestled with how to reduce gun injuries in the US and called for a "multifaceted and comprehensive approach to reducing firearm violence that is consistent with the Second Amendment."

Read More: The US spends less on gun violence research than nearly every other leading cause of death in America — and that's on purpose.

Doctor Cedric Dark was one of the first to point out the timing of the NRA's comments. "This tweet didn't even make it 12 hours before another mass shooting," he wrote."

@Vaulk

@ZeusAres42

The NRA, is an educational reference in itself.

John_C_87

@TKDB ;

Because, the Second Amendment, as it's currently written, is failing US citizens, in the 21st century? Your failing to obey law does not mean the 2nd Amendment is failing. Though not the learned direction of the 2nd Amendment the addition to American United State Constitution still can be used to preserve the principle of constitution itself. The basic principle in our debate is over lethal force and simple is not part of the 2nd Amendment. It is a new change to be made with address to united state, basic principle, and Constitution. To create a more perfect union of American United State Constitution.

A Bullet blocking backpack is a common defense to a general welfare and is an arm. Had the similar basic principle been followed that was previously set by Fire prevention with the use of sprinklers, fire extinguishers, and ax as arm a ballistic shield would have been purchased to provide access to independent protection as a minimal standard.  

A person is no longer forced to maintain the dangers of any responsibility in dispensing lethal force by military draft. It is voluntary to ensure liberty as there is a constant failure to explain that freedom must have no assigned cost plus no self-value at the same time, this equals free in any education of the 1st Amendment. What is freedom, freedom is the combination of no assigned cost plus no self-value the object is free. It is not an interpretation as claimed.

Addressing Death Penalty is pointless here as there has been a forum dedicated that ideology is in whole truth Capital Punishment not Death Penalty. This is not a politically correct term it is a term used to preserve constitution.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

"If you're going to quote me then quote what I actually said you dishonest piece of sh*t."

@ZeusAres42

Curse at me some more.

Guns have killed people, and you want to call me names?

@ZeusAres42

Good, and I think that the pro gun extremists, are making themselves weak, because they have an addiction to guns.

The ugly honesty about some of man, and his gun addiction?

Lawful gun owners, have killed innocent people, and that's a truth, that you can't curse at with your name calling, can you?

Unlawful gun owners, have murdered innocent people, and that's another truth, that you can't curse at with your name calling, can you? 



What are your thoughts on the NRA article, do you want to curse them out as well? 

@ZeusAres42

Here's the article:

https://www.businessinsider.com/nra-told-doctors-to-stay-in-their-lane-2018-11

"The NRA told doctors to 'stay in their lane' when it comes to gun deaths — and doctors are posting furious, devastating responses" 

@ZeusAres42

Who did I call, a pro gun extremist?

"Also the fallacy you committed was calling someone a gun extremist because they asked you to be fair to all good people."

There is no fairness, when innocent people are murdered with guns, is there? 

The ultimate fairness, would be ZERO, innocent people, being murdered by a lawful, or an unlawful gun owner, right? 

The Far Right Pro Gun supporters, are the ones making themselves look foolish.

The NRA, is making itself look foolish.

The lawful gun owners, and the illegal gun owners, who have killed innocent people, are making the Second Amendment look foolish.

Along with making the Death Penalty, look foolish.

"Any way, when you do this your just making yourself look bad and foolish. Most of us here are actual adults and can see you for what you really are.

This also now where I say good-bye to you. My time is too valuable to waste it on someone as unreasonable and badly motivated as you."


@ZeusAres42 ;

I'm not unreasonable, the NRA is unreasonable.

The Far Right Pro Gun supporters, are unreasonable.

And the lawful, and the unlawful gun owners, who have killed people, were unreasonable.

Because, none of the above, can downtalk, innocent people, being killed by guns, can they? 

And because, those innocent people, their valuable time, and lives were taken away from them? 

So, it, wasn't fair, for those innocent people, to be killed by guns, was it? 

So, you can say goodbye, while I'm fighting for those lost lives, taken by gun violence.

TKDB

@John_C_87

Just more of your Whole Truth philosophical teachings, right John? 

John_C_87

TKDB said:

@John_C_87

Just more of your Whole Truth philosophical teachings, right John? 

No the goal is to preserve constitution with truth as the 2nd Amendment can be an addition to fact and truth in accordance to the American constitution's preamble. You may have a right not to tell everything as it may describe a part in a crime? Unknown? Heck! a person might just be lazy and want to cut corners as to not pay an assigned cost, or proposed self-value, not just by spending money but by addressing time on an achievement that cannot be made any other way. The law governing gun is wrong, not the American United State Constitution, we already had an admission form you many of the correct principles are not in laws you brought forward in debate, this by your on egnolledgment.

Again as a Presidential state of the Union, creating all men as equal, the debate of basic principles brought to the table by you for American constitutional reform by amendment is lethal force as united state. To mover are debate forward do you agree or not? yes, no?
Don't procrastinate.

TKDB

@John_C_87

I'm not a Whole Truth disciple of yours John.

I have nothing to add to your individual Whole Truth conversation. 

CYDdharta

TKDB said:

@Vaulk

@ZeusAres42

https://www.businessinsider.com/nra-told-doctors-to-stay-in-their-lane-2018-11

"The NRA told doctors to 'stay in their lane' when it comes to gun deaths — and doctors are posting furious, devastating responses"

• Just hours before the deadly shooting inThousand Oaks, California, the NRA tweeted out an angry rebuttal of a position paper authored by the American College of Physicians.
• The paper in question wrestled with how to reduce gun injuries in the US and called for a "multifaceted and comprehensive approach to reducing firearm violence that is consistent with the Second Amendment."
• The NRA blasted the paper, telling doctors to "stay in their lane."
• Doctors quickly pushed back, saying that gun violence is very much their business, since they're the ones who stop the bleeding and save lives after people get shot.
• One doctor asked, "where are you when I'm having to tell all those families their loved one has died?"

The National Rifle Association, the most powerful gun lobby in the country, is under fire from doctors for a Tweet that many are calling insensitive and ill-reasoned.

On Wednesday, just hours before a gunmanstormed into a bar in California and killed 12 people, the NRA went after the American College of Physicians on Twitter for writing about policies that could reduce the number of deaths and injuries from firearms. "

From the NRA via Twitter:

"Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane. Half of the articles in Annals of Internal Medicine are pushing for gun control. Most upsetting, however, the medical community seems to have consulted NO ONE but themselves. https://www.nraila.org/articles/20181102/surprise-physician-group-rehashes-same-tired-gun-control-policies …

Doctors have already responded to the junk science gun banning physicians have been pushing since the 1980s. 

https://drgo.us/history-of-gun-control/

Vaulk

TKDB said:

@Vaulk

Because I'm fed up with innocent people being killed by guns, in the United States.

And no pro gun supporter, is going to talk me away from that reality.

The White Nationalists, the far Right Pro gun extremists, or whoever.

Just because a veteran has a gun, their guns overall, haven't made much of a difference, say since 1966 in Texas, and all the way up until this year, have they?

Are you another Sam Harris supporter?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris


"Samuel Benjamin Harris (born April 9, 1967) is an American author, public intellectual, blogger, and podcast host primarily known for his criticism of religion, and Islam in particular.[3] His academic background is in philosophy and cognitive neuroscience.[4] His work touches on a wide range of topics, including rationality, religion, ethics, free will, neuroscience, meditation, philosophy of mind, politics, terrorism, and artificial intelligence. He is described as one of the atheistic "Four Horsemen of the Non-Apocalypse", along with Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett.[5] "

Some reference material on Sam Harris. 

@TKDB

I asked what your premise is for the conclusion that a Veteran with a gun isn't the proper answer.  I understand that you're fed up with innocent people dying to dun violence in the U.S. and I'm sympathetic to that idea but it doesn't serve as proof positive that an answer is or isn't correct in regards to solving an issue.

I also don't quite understand what you're saying you won't be talked away from.  The reality that you're fed up with innocent people dying to gun violence?  I don't think anyone here is trying to talk you away from it.  

In regards to your claim that Veteran's and their guns haven't made much of a difference, I'd say that arming Veterans and placing them strategically at schools and other areas that are vulnerable to active shooter situations hasn't been tried yet.  The federal Government has dropped hundreds of millions of dollars into gun control lobbying, reform and awareness but hasn't tried much of anything else.  Pushing more laws hasn't solved the issue in over 50 years...maybe we should try something else?

No I'm not a Sam Harris supporter, never heard of him and from what you've stated about it, if it's all true, then he's not someone I'd subscribe to listening to.  Not sure how this is relevant to our argument but there's your answer.

So maybe you can answer mine, just one question, ignore my entire post and just respond here:  If gun laws have been in the making since before 1966 and if your assessment is true...that the epidemic of gun violence has been in existence since 1966 and is still alive and well today in the form of a plague...then why should we continue (After over 50 years of trying the same thing) to put our efforts into something that hasn't worked? 

TKDB

@CYDdharta

Oh Look, you found a website, that's as weak, as the Second Amendment, is, as it's  it currently written.

"Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership."

I'm pro family life, when it comes to the failure of the Second Amendment, because it's too weak, as it's currently written.

Because as it's currently written, it favors the guns, both legal, and illegal, because the Second Amendment, lacks any responsible language, for the entire accountability of the guns in the United States, all 400 plus million of them.

Is it fair, to the U.S. public as a whole to have both legal, and illegal guns, on the streets, as we speak?

Is it fair for humans to be shot, and killed by those cowards who used both lawful, and illegal guns? 

What other, (Pro Gun Websites,) might the pro gun supporters, both of the United States, and the United Kingdom, search the internet for, as more pro gun fodder, to benefit their gun arguments? 

Is it vulgar to be pro human being, in the light of the gun violence crimes, that happens every day?

Please, educate the Global public more, with the preferred pro gun rhetoric, at the very feet or the words:

(((Mass Shootings, Murder/ Suicide, Domestic Violence, and Abuse, Drive By Shootings, at the very feet of the sickening lack of total Gun accountability in the United States?)))

Go ahead, pro gun supporters, and label the above paragraph as being too sentimental, or too emotional? 

Is it fair to every citizen in the United States, to live with that kind of non existent accountability, with 400 million guns in the U.S., and no one knows, how many of those guns are illegal verses legal?

I already Googled that very question, and no answer, to that question exists.

TKDB

@Vaulk

Sharing the same response to you:

I'm pro family life, when it comes to the failure of the Second Amendment, because it's too weak, as it's currently written.

Because as it's currently written, it favors the guns, both legal, and illegal, because the Second Amendment, lacks any responsible language, for the entire accountability of the guns in the United States, all 400 plus million of them.

Is it fair, to the U.S. public as a whole to have both legal, and illegal guns, on the streets, as we speak?

Is it fair for humans to be shot, and killed by those cowards who used both lawful, and illegal guns? 

What other, (Pro Gun Websites,) might the pro gun supporters, both of the United States, and the United Kingdom, search the internet for, as more pro gun fodder, to benefit their gun arguments? 

Is it vulgar to be pro human being, in the light of the gun violence crimes, that happens every day?

Please, educate the Global public more, with the preferred pro gun rhetoric, at the very feet or the words:

(((Mass Shootings, Murder/ Suicide, Domestic Violence, and Abuse, Drive By Shootings, at the very feet of the sickening lack of total Gun accountability in the United States?)))

Go ahead, pro gun supporters, and label the above paragraph as being too sentimental, or too emotional? 

Is it fair to every citizen in the United States, to live with that kind of non existent accountability, with 400 million guns in the U.S., and no one knows, how many of those guns are illegal verses legal?

I already Googled that very question, and no answer, to that question exists. 

Vaulk

@TKDB

I've made several responses to your post and answered the questions you've made so far and I've asked you to answer just one of my questions.  Since it hasn't been addressed I'll ask just one more time:

If gun laws have been in the making since before 1966 and if your assessment is true...that the epidemic of gun violence has been in existence since 1966 and is still alive and well today in the form of a plague...then why should we continue (After over 50 years of trying the same thing) to put our efforts into something that hasn't worked?