Gay Christian - Homosexual Christian - Lesbian Christian? Impossible - no such entity exists!

RickeyD

@ZeusAres42 ; State your premise, let's do this...you want to open a fresh debate forum with a specific topic?

RickeyD

@ZeusAres42 ; I have unmuted you...would you like to begin?

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD Christianity though is the way they would be come closer to God, autimatically kicking them out isnt going to lead them to Christ.

Also if we are solely justified by faith then the act of being homosexual shouldnt matter all too much.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ; Faith is substantiated...its authenticity is validated and proven authentic via obedience to God's will for one's life. Homosexuality is sin and is NOT God's will; therefore, homosexuality matters much concerning one's relationship with God the Father.

"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?  Luke 6:46 (NASB)

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."  John 3:36 (NASB)

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD I agree faith without works is dead...i thought originally you were a justified by faith alone.

ZeusAres42

@RickeyD

No, let's continue with this one. However, it's getting late here and so I have to go but only for a short while. I will be back. But in the meantime, I would like you to tell me more about this argument about Gays Christians, sins, etc.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ; Justification is by faith alone...no one is "justified" in the presence of God the Father by works but by grace through faith alone in Jesus as Lord (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is the works of obedience SUBSEQUENT to trusting in Jesus Christ that validates the authenticity of the "rebirth" through the Holy Spirit. In other words, if one confesses Christ as Lord and can live in wilful sin and disobedience to God's will for their life, there is good reason to believe that their faith is not authentic and they are not truly a Christian (Matthew 7:21-23). If one is truly "born again" by the Spirit of God, there will be a dramatic change in behavior, desires, in that individual, if not, there is no reason to believe that redemption, salvation, has truly manifest.

RickeyD

@ZeusAres42 I would be honored...let me know when you return and ask your question with specifics please...for now, I will leave you with my article relevant to authentic Christianity that references obedience and why it is essential to the Christian life. Please read and rebut, have a good night. What is Authentic Christianity? https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2019/11/03/what-is-authentic-christianity/

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD Right so you can only display true faith through your actions...so you need a blending of the two...faith without works is dead as you already posted.

Ephesians says you were saved by grace.  You should not boast of your works because works is not the sole thing that will lead you to heaven.

If you can only have faith through gods grace, and it is by faith alone that you are saved then god has predestined people to heaven...and therefore also hell.  What loving god predestines people to hell.

God freely gives his grace to everyone.  It is we who are given a choice to accept or deny that grace...a choice is an act.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers

1) No "blending" of faith and works is acceptable for justification...it is ONLY by grace (unmerited favor - a gift void human effort) through faith (trusting-believing) in Jesus Christ as God who died to pay your sin-debt and was resurrected for your justification that finds "righteousness" (a right standing) with God the Father (Romans 10:9-10).

It matters NOT how good you think you are...it matters not if you give your life to philanthropy and feed the poor and shed your blood for the needy...without "faith" "alone" in Jesus Christ, you will NOT find justification in the presence of God the Father (Ephesians 2:9-10).

2) Works, obedience, ONLY BECOME RELEVANT "SUBSEQUENT" to having trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord. NOTHING that you do before believing Jesus as Lord will earn you favor with God the Father who calls your works as a filthy rag i.e. a bloody menstrual cloth that stinks and is putrid (. Until you have trusted in the Son, Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sin, NOTHING that you do will find righteousness with God the Father.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all wither like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind."  Isaiah 64:6

3) Paul's letter to the Church at Ephesus simply substantiates the truism that no one finds righteousness (a right standing with God the Father) through effort, works, deeds, behavior, but that righteousness is ONLY obtained by trusting in Jesus Christ-Yeshua as Lord, alone. Nothing, no one, no works, will earn you salvation - eternal life but only by trusting in what Jesus did for YOU at the Crucifixion will find righteousness with God the Father (John 3:16). Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is warning that our salvation is by grace through faith - alone- so that NO ONE CAN BOAST about earning their salvation because salvation is a GIFT of God the Father by grace through faith...something we cannot earn.

4) Believing is NOT a work but simply an assent of or to God's Truth that Jesus is Lord who suffered and died to pay our sin-debt that we could not pay. Faith and acknowledging God's Truth is not a work of labor but simply belief...this is not an act or work but a response and acknowledgment of God's Truth.

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD. With faith alone you cant get past the fact that god would be predestineing people to hell.

...how do you refute this?

Believing and having faith is a choice unless you think god doesnt give us free will.

Paul is merely stating by acts alone man cannot be saved.  Without gods grace no amount of works would get us into heaven that doesnt mean no works are required.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers

1) No one is predestined to Hell except for Satan-the False Prophet-the Beast-the fallen angels (Revelation 20:10) for it is written that God desires all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Timothy 2:3-5). Faith is simply acknowledging the evidence that is before you (Romans 1:18-20), Nature, and using said empiricism to seek God and and His will for your life (Hebrews 11:6). God has promised that anyone who seeks Him with their whole heart will find Him - I know this to be true (Jeremiah 29:13; Deuteronomy 4:29; Proverbs 8:17).

"This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…"  1 Timothy 2:3-5

2) Believing and faith are a "choice"....this is true. Faith is not absent evidence concerning our Lord but He has provided extant, empirical, evidence for His reality through what He has made in Nature and placed before our eyes; also, God has entered Time and walked among us for 33.5-yrs and then He has given us His written Covenant of Grace between Himself and mankind i.e. the Scriptures; a relationship of grace that is entered into by grace thorough faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior and Mediator for sin (John 3:16).

3) Paul via the Holy Spirit is clearly telling you that WORKS PLAY NO ROLE IN SALVATION. If man could earn his own righteousness before God, Jesus would not have needed to suffer and die. Justification will not manifest by works and faith but by faith alone. God has so decreed that salvation be available to a 10-year-old boy and a 110-year-old bed-ridden invalid who has no capacity for works or effort but can still find salvation by grace through faith alone.

Do you see works in the following Scriptures?

Jesus said...

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  John 3:16

Jesus said...

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  John 3:18

Jesus said...

Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sin. John 8:24

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."  Romans 4:1-8

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; Romans 3:19-22

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.  Romans 4:11-13

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2

By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:5-6

Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”  Acts 15:10-11

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Just because you strive to not live in a sin, does not mean that you do not live in a sin. I am pretty sure that Mao also did not strive to kill 50 million people; he strove to be a noble leader that would bring his people prosperity.

One's intent does not really matter, when they actions diverge from it. "Road in hell is paved with good intentions".

In your case, for example, you may strive to be a good Christian, but your words diverge from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who said that one should never judge others and should only judge themselves. You constantly pick on those who disagree with you on something - not something your religion is supposed to approve of. Does it mean you are going to hell? Or do you believe that your good intentions will save you from it?

Those who blow themselves up in the name of Allah also have good intentions: they want to bring Allah's kingdom on Earth. Do you think that, just because they want it, they will actually end up in heaven with 72 virgins? I think not.

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD. Why dont you stop just posting scripture versus that say you need faith to enter heaven (which im not disputing) and make a logical argument.  Not having works in a verse doesnt correlate to stating they dont matter.

If faith is the only thing you need and choosing to believe is not an act...then again you are saying that a man believes through no fault of his own, which vice versa would mean if they dont have faith it is not their fault...therefore god is determining beforehand who goes to heaven and hell...you are making him a puppeteer.

You cant logically explain how that is not a logical conclusion, but you will probably respond by cherry picking scripture verses.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

As I have said repeatedly; as long as mankind is constrained within this body of death we all struggle with a sin-nature and we're all sinners (Romans 3:23)...THE DIFFERENCE BEING - THE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN POSSESS A NEW SPIRIT, THE HOLY SPIRIT WARS AGAINST THE OLD-SPIRIT, THE FALLEN-NATURE INHERITED FROM OUR FATHER, ADAM (Romans 7).

The difference being that the Christian is now led by the Spirit of God and is daily transformed - incrementally into the image of Christ through the process theologically known as "sanctification."  First, the new believer is "justified" by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. This is but the genesis of life in Jesus Christ. For the rest of the believer's life in Time, they are daily-incrementally being transformed from a product of the World into a servant of obedience in Jesus Christ. The process of sanctification varies among Christians in accordance with a Christian's pursuit of knowledge and wisdom through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There are Christians who are more spiritually mature and knowledgeable in 6-months subsequent to salvation than some Christians will be in a entire lifetime. A Christian's maturity and spiritual growth are wholly dependent upon their desire to know God and to pursue Him through His written word by the tutelage and wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 2:15) as well as God's calling upon that person's life.

The Christian does NOT desire to sin...finds no pleasure in sin but only a grieved conscience when they sin because they know they have offended the God who suffered and died to free them from bondage to sin; therefore, it is written that we, the Christian, have an Intercessor between ourselves and God the Father i.e. Jesus Christ, Who was tempted to sin just as we are tempted to sin but He did not sin...Jesus remained perfect...this is KEY (1 John 2:1)!  When a man or woman or child truly believes that Jesus is God who died to pay their sin-debt, at that moment, God the Father chooses to impute the perfection - the righteousness of Jesus Christ over the life of the believer. From that point forward, God the Father chooses to no longer see the Christian as a sinner but He chooses to see only the righteousness of the Son, Jesus Christ. It is the imputation of Christ's perfection-righteousness over the life of the believer that makes them positionally acceptable to God the Father to enter the Kingdom of God subsequent to death of the body in Time.

In my new nature in Jesus Christ and by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I loathe sin and desperately seek to be pleasing to my Lord in all things but when I sin I am quick to ask forgiveness for that sin - NOT to secure my salvation which is secure in my Lord forever (John 10:28-30) - but - I ask forgiveness because I desire to maintain intimacy with my Lord which is the greatest gift provided by Jesus Christ as He has died to pay my sin-debt that I can know God the Father personally and commune with Him intimately (1 John 1:9). As a Christian, I loathe sin because sin interrupts relationship and more than anything in this World, I truly LOVE my relationship with my God and want NOTHING interfering with same!

Concerning judgment...

When I tell you the Truth about your sin of homosexuality and the Truth that unless you repent and trust in Jesus as Lord for the mediation/forgiveness of sin you will not enter the Kingdom of God...THIS IS NOT JUDGMENT IN HYPOCRISY, THIS IS TRUTH AND A RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT FROM GOD'S WORD (Matthew 7:24)...it's not MY judgment but God's Judgment. It is my responsibility as one who loves and serves Jesus Christ to tell you that without the forgiveness of sin ONLY available by grace through faith in Jesus as Lord...you will die in sin (John 8:24)...this is NOT MY judgment...this is compassion through obedience to God's will.

If I did not love Jesus Christ and if I did not seek obedience to Him as Lord, why would I care if you died in Hell?

Concerning Allah and the Islamic Caliphate....

I know who Allah is and why he has manifest in Time. You do not know Allah yet you serve him in your homosexuality and in your atheism and you will suffer a similar fate as he lest you repent of your sin and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of said sin!  Who is Allah? https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2019/07/19/who-is-allah-creator-or-created-2/

 

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ; You are not ignorant and you know that your position is not sound. I have told you that salvation is not of works but of faith and that works are only relevant subsequent to salvation by grace through faith. It is the works, service, dedication, love, of the Christian SUBSEQUENT to establishing a relationship with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus that said works become relevant...WORKS PLAY NO PART IN THE PROCESS OF JUSTIFICATION BUT THEY ARE RELEVANT ONLY IN THE PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION.

Once Jesus had prepared to institute the Covenant of Grace through the shedding of His blood at the Crucifixion (Matthew 26:28), Jesus never mentioned the works of the Law concerning righteousness but only "belief" in Him as Lord as the Key to entering the Kingdom of God (John 3:16). You are free gag at a gnat and swallow a camel but I have clearly articulated Biblical doctrine, truth, that salvation - eternal life - is only accessible by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord...there is no other way to find righteousness with God the Father but through Jesus Christ (John 14:6). It is this grace through faith that differentiates Christianity from all of the religions of the World. Christianity is faith-based while religion is works-based. Judaism is works-based - Christianity is faith-based.  The Law was given to the children of Israel to guide them in the way of holiness because God is Holy but The Law could never forgive sin because the blood of bulls and goats was inadequate to pay the required price for sin (Hebrews 10:4).

It is written about the Covenant of Law v. the Covenant of Grace...

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—

In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  Hebrews 10:1-10 (NKJV)

Jesus is the end of The Law...the end of Works concerning righteousness. At NO TIME in the history of mankind has mankind found righteousness (a right standing) with God the Father through works but only by faith in both the Covenant of Law and the Covenant of Grace. Even in the Covenant of Law, it was not possible that blood of bulls and goats could take away sin but The Law of the Blood Covenant was simply a forward looking prophecy to the Lamb of God (John 1:29) who would enter time through the womb of a virgin woman and live a life of perfection as God in the Flesh and die for the sins of mankind - mankind who could not pay the required debt for their own sin i.e. the shed blood of innocence - the innocence of Jesus Christ our Lord (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 2:8; Galatians 4:4).

"So also, when we were children, we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.…"  Galatians 4:3-5 (NASB)

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

First of all, how do you know that of all hundreds Christian denominations the one you follow is the one led by the "Holy Spirit"? You keep citing the scripture, but followers of other denominations use the same scripture verses as you do to come to different conclusions. What makes you the true believer and others non-true ones?

You also have not addressed my argument. I realize that you do not want to sin; my objection was that even if you do not want to sin consciously, your actions might still perpetuate sin. In addition, you might want to sin unconsciously, without even being aware of it, perhaps due to your misinterpretation of what a sin is.

In virtually all ideologies, there are non-followers whose actions actually result in a more favorable outcome from the ideological point of view, than those of some of the followers. For example, communist regimes always put emphasis on eradicating poverty, yet capitalist systems - that allegedly promote the opposite - have been significantly more efficient at eradicating poverty. What if, for example, most Christians, who do not want to sin, end up sinning much more, than, say, most atheists?

You cannot claim some superiority over others just because you identify as Christian. I may identify as emperor; does not make me rule an empire, however. It does not matter what you want, what your intentions are and what you believe you are; what matters is your actions. And I have not seen anything yet that would suggest that Christian actions are inherently less sinful than actions of any other religious follower, or atheist.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

Concerning denominations...

1) I am aware that much emphasis is placed upon "Church" doctrine in Christianity but please understand this truism: God the Father is NOT nearly as interested in the Church Building and its practices as He is interested in the individual lives of His children, Human KIND. If one studies the Scriptures concerning the true "Church," they will discover that it is the individual believer who is the actual "Church of God"...not a brick and mortar structure (2 Corinthians 6:16; Hebrews 8:10; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:32; Revelation 19:7; 21:9; Ephesians 1:10; 4:15). A Church "building" is where the true "Church" (the individual believers) gather for corporate worship. Though the Christian is admonished to NOT forsake the assembling of ourselves together in corporate worship (Hebrews 10:25) understand that God's desire is a personal relationship with His created beings - One-on-one fellowship and love and devotion and service in honor an dignity forever (John 10:27-30). 

I don't adhere to man's doctrines or a denomination through you will find that the five-seven major-mainline Christian denominations waving the Christian banner are practically identical concerning the core tenets of Scripture (Ephesians 4:5-6) but differ by "preferences" concerning Church order - music - controversial subjects such as tongues and types or formats for baptism, communion, dress. I am not obligated to any denomination (though I serve a Baptist Church in a nearby town) but simply seek the purity and simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ who is NOT a God of confusion but a God of peace and contentment (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Concerning the true believer...

The true believer is one who has sincerely believed in their heart - confessed with their mouth - that Jesus Christ is God who died to pay their sin-debt and that Jesus was resurrected for their justification leading to Eternal life with God the Father subsequent to death of the body in Time.  This relationship with God the Father having been Sealed and Guaranteed by the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who secures the believer in God's love and Covenant of Grace forever (Ephesians 1:13). The true believer acknowledges that there is NOTHING they can do to earn favor with God the Father but that ONLY by trusting-believing in what Jesus Christ performed at the Crucifixion results in the imputation of Christ's righteousness into and over the life of the one who believes and confesses Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-9). This is my confession as well; therefore, I am a "true" believer. Anything added to or taken away from this confession is NOT Christianity but "religion."

2) God is the God of the conscience and the will when the Holy Spirit takes up residence within the true believer. The born again believer possess a new conscience that is incredibly in-tune to the will of God and even though mankind's thought-life will be judged, the Christian learns via the process of Sanctification to bring every thought into captivity to the will of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 10:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17)...the believer is literally a "new creation." The Christian approaches the destructiveness of sin from a different vantage point than the lost World. The Christian understands the impediment-destructiveness that is sin-disobedience and seeks to change their attitude about sin from a morally relativistic perspective espoused by the World to a perspective of caution and consuming concern knowing that sin disrupts fellowship and peace and contentment...these are but a few of the fruits/gifts of the Spirit provided the faithful (Galatians 5:22-23; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10) and they are cherished and coveted beyond any desire to sin and the temporary pleasure and inevitable heartache that manifests from compromising with sin (Philippians 4:8). When one tastes the goodness of God's love - sin loses its draw and attractiveness. God's peace and love and contentment are so much more satisfying to the soul than engaging in sin which only brings temporary fleshly pleasure and leaves heartache and sorrow in its wake.

Christians v. Atheists relevant to sin?

3) The Scriptures are clear, we have all sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard of righteousness (Romans 3:23). Again, the difference between the Atheist and the Christian concerning sin is the difference between relative and objective. The Atheist sins without much conscience/concern because they interpret sin to be subjective and relative - there are very few, if any, moral absolutes in Atheism; moral relativism is a core tenet of Atheistic thought. Whatever is good for you...is good for you and whatever is good for another, is good for them and no one has a right to judge another for behavior-morality-social conduct is relative to one's personal interpretation and worldview.  This is the worldview of the secularist-atheist-naturalist and this is Satan's world.

This is the antithesis of a Christian's worldview. When a believer is born again by the Spirit of God, they receive the Holy Spirit who takes up residence within their inner-being/spirit. You might say that there is a "new Sheriff in town" and a radical transformation manifests in the life of the one who has trusted in Jesus as Lord (2 Corinthians 5:17). No longer is sin or compromise with worldly desires attractive but there is a sense of disdain, a distaste for the desires of the World (Romans 12:2; 1 John 2:15-17). The believer via the process of Sanctification internalizes the mind of Christ and the World is seen and internalized from God's perspective NOT man's perspective (1 Corinthians 2:16). So the Christian will NOT engage in destructive sin and your supposition concerning Christians sinning more than Atheists is illogical and impossible due to the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God within every true believer (Ephesians 1:13).

Concerning Christian superiority?

4) Christian's don't claim superiority over others...we are simply different in our approach to life and our Worldview is vertical more than it is horizontal. The Christian walks, talks, believes, differently than the World that does not know God and God righteous decrees (1 Peter 2:9) "a peculiar people."  The Christian does not think like the World but has the mind of Jesus Christ through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). You will find that the Christian endeavors to live a life that honors God, that honors the family, that honors and loves one's neighbor; though the Christian is not perfect while in this dying flesh, the Christian is one seeks to honor the Creator of the Universe and seeks a life of dignity and peace and contentment and servitude to God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus Christ through the power and wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirit. There is no greater life than know that all is well with the God who created you and that you are His child forever (Romans 5:1).

 

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD. Works are subsequent to faith...subsequent would imply that they are still needed but only after you declare faith.

Is the sanctification of an individual not needed to make it into heaven?

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ; Works, subsequent to being born again by the Spirit of God, are simply confirmation and affirmation that one's confession and faith and belief are true. When one is truly born again, there is a radical change that manifests in the life of the believer...a change in attitude, a change in worldview, a change in priorities i.e. the fruit of the Spirit.  The Sanctification process varies among individual believers - some mature quickly - some never truly mature.

Sanctification and works go hand-in-hand as the believer grows in his/her faith...as the believer matures in their faith, the change wrought by the Spirit becomes increasingly evident through the behavior of the one having professed Jesus as Lord.

With that said, the "justification" of the believer is absent works and salvation is attained ONLY by grace (unmerited favor) through faith (trusting-believing) that Jesus Christ is God who died to pay your sin-debt; a debt you could not pay.  Works or the fruit of the Spirit will manifest in the life of the one who has truly believed.

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD You keep contradicting yourself.  Works are affirmation of faith...so works are needed to pt
Rove yout faith.

No one is arguing that you dont need grace or that the death of christ salvation cant be obtained.

What i am saying is that people have free will and choose/ must exhibit actions that show they have accepted gods grace and gave faith...that is something you choose to do. 

The death of jesus christ allows us to enter heaven and provides justification, but
You never answered the question if the sanctification of someone is needed to enter heaven?  By your own admission sanctification is displayed through works.

Again if no choice/act/or admission to belief in christ is required and if that belief is not freely chosen. God has made the decision whether you enter heaven or hell before birth.

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD You keep contradicting yourself.  Works are affirmation of faith...so works are needed to pt
Rove yout faith.

No one is arguing that you dont need grace or that the death of christ salvation cant be obtained.

What i am saying is that people have free will and choose/ must exhibit actions that show they have accepted gods grace and gave faith...that is something you choose to do. 

The death of jesus christ allows us to enter heaven and provides justification, but
You never answered the question if the sanctification of someone is needed to enter heaven?  By your own admission sanctification is displayed through works.

Again if no choice/act/or admission to belief in christ is required and if that belief is not freely chosen. God has made the decision whether you enter heaven or hell before birth.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ;

1) There is no contradiction, Michael, faith and works are two-separate entities relevant to Salvation in Jesus Christ. When we believe in Jesus' death for our salvation this is faith. We've done nothing to earn our salvation but simply assent to the Truth that Jesus is Lord by faith - this is belief. When we seek to honor God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, in thankfulness via obedience SUBSEQUENT to our salvation, this is works or good deeds of righteousness that proves our faith is authentic.

2) You are correct. God the Father has infused "free will" in both His angelic and human creation. You are free to choose Jesus Christ as Lord and find life in Eternity with God the Father and you are free to choose to reject Jesus as Lord and serve Satan by default. It is your "choice" to make.

3) I ask you, the thief on the cross next to Jesus at the Crucifixion...did the thief perform any work or righteous deed in order to be saved?

Did this thief do any works to be saved?

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”  Luke 23:33-43 (NASB)

4) Your closing statement makes no sense but again, God does not predestine anyone to Hell but God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4). You have the choice to choose life in Jesus or death in Satan. At the point of your last exhalation, that option i.e. the "Age of Grace" will end and your Eternity fixed (Hebrews 9:27).

MichaelElpers

@RickeyD Yes, he did something to show he had true faith.

RickeyD

@MichaelElpers ; He simply acknowledged that he was a sinner and guilty and believed that Jesus is God...this is NOT work but faith.