Does Christianity align with US values?

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

I challenge anyone to name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the US democracy.

The myth that the US was founded on Christian principals is one that needs to be brought into light if there is to be any moral progress.

Being Christian does not make you a good person, and this realization is why so many people are leaving religion and checking "none" when asked about religion.

To the question "Does Christianity align with US values" I will give the same answer I gave TKDB on his Atheist thread and that is:

I see that he may have tried to reduce the argument based on if Christan values are in allignment with US values to the consequent. However, the problem with him was stating that Atheism is a stance. A better way to reduce that argument to the consequences would have been to say "Are there any values not based on Christianity that are in allignment with the US values?"

In any case, both arguments boil down to one basic false dichotomy/False Dilemma (an either/or fallacy): "Either Christian values are in allignment with the US values or values not based on Christianity are in allignment with the US values." Here, readers have been given two opposing alternatives where more alternatives exist. 

There are lots of Christian values just as there are lots of values not based on Christianity and so it is reasonable to assume that there will be at least some Christian values that are in allignment with the US just as there will be values not based on Christianity or any religion for that matter in alignment with the US values also. In other words, I am sure with the ammount of Christians and Atheists around the globe there will be many of them sharing the same values.

I think the other points about what the US was founded on more than 200 years ago or whether or not being a Christian makes you a good person is irrelevant to the question.

Happy_Killbot

@ZeusAres42 I would disagree that there is a false dichotomy here, because the way I word things there isn't an argument, I only ask a question and issue a challenge, which if completed would suffice to answer that question.

What I am saying is: Name a value unique to Christianity that is also a unconditional value of the US.

I never use the word Alignment in the challenge because it isn't about alignment, it is about equivalency of values or principals.

The point is that there are almost none, so Christian nationalists who will tell you "The US was founded on Judeao-Christian values" or "The US exists to support the Christian religion" or various politicians who cater to Christian voters, are wrong and this challenge demonstrates that there are shockingly few (So far only one has been named) values on which the US was founded that are unique to Christianity.

Dee

@Happy_Killbot


***** I would disagree that there is a false dichotomy here, because the way I word things there isn't an argument, I only ask a question and issue a challenge, which if completed would suffice to answer that question.

Yes I agree and  the challenge as yet has not been met

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

@ZeusAres42 I would disagree that there is a false dichotomy here, because the way I word things there isn't an argument, I only ask a question and issue a challenge, which if completed would suffice to answer that question.

What I am saying is: Name a value unique to Christianity that is also a unconditional value of the US.

I never use the word Alignment in the challenge because it isn't about alignment, it is about equivalency of values or principals.

The point is that there are almost none, so Christian nationalists who will tell you "The US was founded on Judeao-Christian values" or "The US exists to support the Christian religion" or various politicians who cater to Christian voters, are wrong and this challenge demonstrates that there are shockingly few (So far only one has been named) values on which the US was founded that are unique to Christianity.

@Happy_Killbot ; I am not saying your post is a fallacy. What I am saying is that if we take your title which does include alignment as well TKDB's title we can put them together to make one compound claim that would be fallacious: "Either it's Christianity that aligns with the US values or it's Atheism that aligns with the US values." And just from skim-reading some of the other posts in this thread, it appears that some people are arguing in this fashion.

With that being said, I noticed that I missed the bit at which you asked: "Name a value unique to Christianity that is also an unconditional value of the US." And to answer, this I would say that considering a unique value to Christianity would be a value like no other then there isn't any, at least none that I can think of. Furthermore, I'm not even sure there is such a thing as a "unique value."

Happy_Killbot

@ZeusAres42 TKBD and myself are different people. If you put together snippets of just about any two people's questions you will come to a fallacious argument.

I am not making the claim that it is either Atheism or Christianity that is aligned with US values, although I suppose some people are trying to make this argument, which is exactly what I am trying to kill.

The  reason I must ask about a unique value is because if someone states some value, for example, monogamous marriage as a founding US value which has been argued, they would have to prove that this did indeed come from Judeao-Christian origins, and if it came from elsewhere, for example the Sumerians and various other cultures we can not say it is truly a Christian value at all, but rather comes from another source.

There is a single solution to the challenge that has been brought up, and that is racial slavery, which evolved out of religious slavery in Europe and is uniquely Christian in origin. Everything else can be traced back to a non-Christian or non-Hebrew source.

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

I am not making the claim that it is either Atheism or Christianity that is aligned with US values, although I suppose some people are trying to make this argument, which is exactly what I am trying to kill.

The  reason I must ask about a unique value is because if someone states some value, for example, monogamous marriage as a founding US value which has been argued, they would have to prove that this did indeed come from Judeao-Christian origins, and if it came from elsewhere, for example the Sumerians and various other cultures we can not say it is truly a Christian value at all, but rather comes from another source.

There is a single solution to the challenge that has been brought up, and that is racial slavery, which evolved out of religious slavery in Europe and is uniquely Christian in origin. Everything else can be traced back to a non-Christian or non-Hebrew source.

@Happy_Killbot Well, that was one thing I didn't consider which was about religious slavery. However, while I am aware that slavery was at one point very apparent in the US it is no longer endorsed or valued by the US anymore, at least from my understanding. So, I am not sure that it is a solution to this challenge, at least in todays world. Religious slavery may still be of value to some Christians but it is not a value that is part of the USA.

Grafix

@SkepticalOne - 

To be candid your denial is futile.  Evidence of Christianity is overwhelming in the Founding Fathers' various public speeches, letters, diary notes, etc. both on the public record and the Congressional record, which so frequently reference the relevance of God in honourable men entrusted with a duty of office. Below is the record of the very first Resolution, (passed unanimously) of the very first sitting of Congress at its inaugural opening in the history of the nation and which practise was adopted and is still practised today .... 

In God We Trust

You then claim that the phrase "In God We Trust"  replaced the motto E Pluribus Unum.  No.  That is incorrect.  It had only ever been a de facto motto, never declared officially.  "In God We Trust"  is the only motto which has ever been declared officially.  Besides, E Pluribus Unum serves a completely different purpose.  It signifies the Union of the States and can be seen to this day on the Great Seal of the U.S.A..  It was never intended to serve as a motto to uphold justice for the people, which is the purpose of the motto  "In God We Trust".  Below is an image of the Great Seal as it still appears to this day.  The thirteen stars are the thirteen States which first joined the Union of the United States of America.




The phrase "in God We Trust" didn't first come into use in the 1950s.  It has a long and illustrious tradition in history beginning in the early 19th Century, with the Founding Fathers commissioning craftsmen to display it on many public buildings long before it was put on the early coins in the same century.  Here's the public record ...

The appearance of the phrase on coins has the following history:-

The Pledge of Allegiance Under God 

You say that the Founding Fathers are not required to make the Pledge of Allegiance and had no role in its contrivance.  That's true.  The Pledge is designed for citizens only and is not designed for officials holding office, who take an Oath of Office instead, which covers a great deal more - pledging to uphold the Constitution, serve the nation and the people.  I agree the phrase "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954, words taken directly from and a specific reference to President Lincoln's Gettysburg address, the last paragraph of which reads as follows ....

POTUS Oath of office

You opine that the modern Presidential Oath of Office has been "embellished" beyond the requirement of the Constitution and lament Presidents referencing God, although not mentioned in the Constitutional Clause. Very true, but the tradition is that as long as the critical words expressed in the Constitution are contained in the Oath verbatim, that each President is at liberty to add his own words to personally express his sense of duty, awareness of grave responsibility and humility as he may see fit. 

Who the hell do atheists think you are?  You now want to control that too?  The expression of making a very deep personal commitment to public duty has nothing to do with the powers of office. Sheesh. Pack up your Totalitarian dictatorial whining Marxism and swim to Cuba. George Washington began that tradition.  He was the first to add "So help me God"  to the Oath of Office.  You can't get a better endorsement of the timelessness of those words than from the very first President.  The whine of atheism is galling over every wee whiff of Christianity or mention of God.  How dare we!!  LOL!  God is not the pox, you know.  Prayer is not a contagion that it is going to snuff you out, so why do you get so tichy about it?  Appalling intolerance is why.  I can't comment on Military Oaths of Allegiance having never researched them. 

Taking Oaths On The Bible

To pretend that Christian values were not an integral and foundational cornerstone in the birth of America is too ludicrous for words.  Mention of these values by the Founding Fathers on the record is numerous.  Then to try to deny it in the same breath as acknowledging the taking of Oaths on the Christian Bible by Government officials from the President down, is too absurd for words.  Because the government was conceived as a secular institution, doesn't mean at all that the populace or those serving in office must be also.  In any event, the Founding Fathers perceived that America would remain predominantly Christian.  It's a modernist fad to not take an Oath on the Bible, through the influence of your lot, who have such an aversion to anything which breathes God.  The longstanding tradition of taking Oaths on the Bible was never questioned for centuries and is sure testimony to the historical and traditional Christian foundation of the nation, going right to the heart of its system of laws and lawmaking in public office and in the Courts. In God We Trust.

SkepticalOne

You have admitted that many of your 'evidences' of the founders intentions for a Christian founding were not, in fact, from anywhere near the founding. This is a concession. Also, I've asked you for your sources which you have failed to provide. For these reasons, your claims can be seen as nothing more than false or dubious personal assertions.

There is no dispute that some of the Founders were religious. There should be no dispute that some rejected Christianity. However, the personal religious views or expressions of these view (even in a public setting) is irrelevant to the government that the founders actually set up. 

The Constitution makes no mention of god or religion with exception to "no religious test". If the US government was to be based on Christianity, how do you explain this? Also, how do you explain the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly states 'the United states government is not in any way based on the Christian religion'? [Paraphrased]. You have failed to address these objections.

I have no qualms with people being religious. What I do object to is people speaking with the weight of government to push their religious views. I, and others of all religions, give power to the government. If one religion receives priviledge then everyone who is not of that religion are having the power that they give to the government used against them. This functionally makes them lesser citizens than adherents of the religion being favored. Our founding fathers understood this and the evidence is plain that they sought to avoid it.

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

I challenge anyone to name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the US democracy.

The myth that the US was founded on Christian principals is one that needs to be brought into light if there is to be any moral progress.

Being Christian does not make you a good person, and this realization is why so many people are leaving religion and checking "none" when asked about religion.

Ok, after some reflection here is my take on this now bit by bit:

I challenge anyone to name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the US democracy.

To answer this we first have to assume that there is such a thing as a unique value at all. I don't think there is any such thing as a unique value, just as I don't think there is anything unique about morality. Furthermore, if we assume there is such a thing that is only unique to Christianity then we have to assume it is value unlike anything ever seen before which I would argue is extremely unlikely. Therefore, I would argue there is no value unique to Christianity which is also a value that is part of the US. If it's also a value shared or previously shared by two or more parties then it cannot be unique.

Further to that, a possible solution to this challenge was suggested to be slavery. However, I would contend still that this does not solve the challenge because slavery is/was not unique to Christianity or the USA. Throughout history, Slavery is something that at one point or another was valued by numerous countries across the globe including secular nations such as China for instance.

As for the other points, I am not going to comment on as I am not sure there really relevant to the challenge and/or to modern times.

In summary, I will conclude there is not a unique Christian value that is also a value shared by the US governmental system, not today and nor in the past. This is for two reasons. For one, it wouldn't make any sense to say a value is unique if it is shared by more than one party as then it could no longer be called "unique." Secondly, I find it extremely unlikely that there is any such thing as a value that is unique.

Happy_Killbot

@ZeusAres42 I would agree with most of what you have said, but to clarify on the point, it is specifically racial slavery, which i accept as a solution. Slavery existed in many ancient cultures in the ancient world and still does, but it was a sort of free for all conquest type of slavery, where there is no distinguishing characteristic in most of these societies. The idea of racial slavery was formed out of religious slavery, where the predominantly Christian Europe during the medieval period would not enslave people based on religion, or would release their slaves who converted to Christianity. This latter changed into race based slavery because it allowed slave owners to retain their slaves.

Also just as clarifications, Unique in this context is based on historical originality rather than consistent exception. For example, many religions hold "Do not kill" so it is not unique, but if you could prove that the Hebrews were the first to adopt this law, and all subsequent cultures copied them, it would count as being unique.  However if I show that for example, the Sumerians had this as a law prior to it being recorded in the bible (and by hundreds of years at that) then it is no longer unique.

MattGould

@Happy_Killbot ;
IDK if it is possible to say that America is a Christian nation currently, but I would say that the legal system and the rules and regulations that we impose on people is very much based on overall Christian ethics. I certainly agree that we need to have a moral code, but the problem with this is that my point of view is that morality and moral codes are very subjective. So I don't know how it's possible to hold the view of moral relativism and still enforce a moral code. So I'm currently stumped as to where to go from here intellectually. 

Happy_Killbot

@MattGould I think it would be important to ask if the US was at any point in it's history a Christian nation. It is arguable, that from it's founding it was secular, although this secularism would be considered primitive when compared to modern European countries. The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and if one chooses to follow no religion, then that should have always been considered acceptable under the constitution.

There can be no freedom of religion, unless there is also freedom from religion.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

Can't anyone be Religious oriented, if they aren't infringing or interfering with your non Religious stance?

Why can't there be freedom from Religious Discrimination, or freedom from non Religious Segregation, from those individuals who continue to Segregationally, try to PRY Religion from their ways of life, if none of those same Religious oriented individuals aren't infringing on your freedom from religion stance?

And You are living your freedom from Religion stance, because you reiterate it over and over again, on the internet, your freedom from religion teachings, are non Religious Segregation teachings gold.

I've learned more from how you utilize your keyboard or your keypad, from how you press into the Internet Public, through the works of your own mind, via your below words:

"There can be no freedom of religion, unless there is also freedom from religion."

When I've gone into a Religious building, those freedom from religion individuals are welcome to come into the Religious building if they want to or not.

Because if the non Religious individuals don't make the attempt to enter inside of any Religious building, guess what?

Your freedom from religion is still intact isn't it?

And your freedom from religion isn't being infringed on, discriminated against either, is it?