The Good God Paradox

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

You dwindled what I said down your below Atheist question?

@TKDB What about evil from non-human sources, such as earthquakes, floods, poisonous plants, and dangerous animals?

Evil is not unique to humans.

Just like the Atheist mindset is not unique to humans.

You define your Atheist oriented Paradox very clearly.

Sand

@Happy_Killbot

>>>We know this creature existed because of fossils and genetic analysis. Everything points to such a creature as having existed.<<<

I would like to see the study, you like to tease me with statements.

>>>Chimpanzees and Humans are both animals.<<<

I believe Humans, even though we have similar features, are not like any animals whatsoever.

Dr. Richard Restak - “The human brain, and the human brain alone, has the capacity to step back, survey its own operation, and thus achieve some degree of transcendence. Indeed, our capacity for rewriting our own script and redefining ourselves in the world is what distinguishes us from all other creatures in the world.”
“When we ask how a process [evolution] that resembles a game of chance, with dreadful penalties for the losers, could have generated such qualities as love of beauty and truth, compassion, freedom, and, above all, the expansiveness of the human spirit, we are perplexed. The more we ponder our spiritual resources, the more our wonder deepens.”

You never see an animal generate qualities of love, compassion, desire to build, create, there are things so unique to humans that it is mind boggling.

You never see two chimpanzees having a debate on the origin of bananas.

>>>There is no evidence a god existed, there is evidence (and very strong at that) for evolution.<<<

You must not mean Evolution from one Species to another.

Because there is no evidence for that.

To say there is means you are speculating.

I have already presented strong evidence for an intelligent creator.

#1 the probability is too high for Evolution from one Species to another.

The likely hood that God created life is way lower probability and possibility.

Is it a stretch? Yes. But not as far as Evolution from one Species to another, that is more than a stretch more like a fantasy.

Your answer to that is more tries.

You missed the point of his analogy. He was saying that Superintelligence is needed for life.

>>>The question is answered. RNA is like the path a stone makes as it rolls down a hill. There is information in the path which is formed from the shape of the stone, with RNA it is the same thing but chemical. I can't give a better answer than this but this is what is happening.RNA doesn't need DNA, it can just happen in nature. In complete Eukaryote cells RNA is manufactured, but in nature, the right circumstances can lead to it just existing.<<<

I asked to give an example where matter gives information and adds it to or increases it in the genome.

You said RNA.

But RNA does not add information or give information to the genome.

It copies and messengers the DNA's information.

I feel you are trying to shift the conversation away from this question.

You say interacting gives information, but not to the genome.

I think I know what you are trying to say with RNA, but until evolutionists have that process clear, you cannot say RNA had a part in DNA.

It sounds like you are referring to the RNA Hypothesis.

There are two problems if RNA is fighting for the survival of the fittest there is no need for DNA. You got to hammer out HOW.

The second problem is information.

Because RNA does not add information or give information to the genome.

>>>Most mutations have no effect on the cell, your assumption is false.<<<
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutationsanddisorders/neutralmutations

But what does it do to the proteins?

"Changes in DNA caused by mutation in a coding region of DNA can cause errors in protein sequence that may result in partially or completely non-functional proteins. Each cell, in order to function correctly, depends on thousands of proteins to function in the right places at the right times. When a mutation alters a protein that plays a critical role in the body, a medical condition can result."

Your article agrees.

"A very small percentage of all mutations actually have a positive effect."

They are talking about immunity development from new strains of bacteria.

>>>I don't have the time to show you studies to prove all of these things, and this doesn't really matter anyways.<<<

Yet you ask it from me?

>>>I get it that you don't think evolution is real (it is) and if you are actually interested in an answer, you are going to need to find the answer to your questions yourself.<<<

I understand, frustration from the results, will this change you and stuff.

>>>On top of it, this doesn't matter much for this debate anyways we are supposed to be talking about the good god paradox, which exists independently of evolution being true or not, suppose a god exists outside time and space caused the big bang and everything fell into place, eventually creating humans via evolution. This doesn't answer the question any more than if we assume that 26 minutes ago some deity snapped its fingers and everything popped into existence just as it is.<<<

Ok, I will get back on topic. But you got to admit it was getting good!

>>>The way I see it, there are two answers to this question: God is not all good, or god does not exist. Either way, it is a mortal blow to Christianities view of a good and powerful god.<<<

I will address this.

Thanks for the latitude.

Sand

My answer to The Good God Paradox

God is neutral.

This is a giant court case, where God is the Judge.

That is why he pronounced judgment on Adam and Eve.

He had to adhere to the warning He gave at the start.

The problem came when Satan challenged that humans would not choose to worship God out of love.

So God gave Satan an opportunity to prove his claim.

That is why Satan controls the world and God is silent.

The reason why God doesn't address the badness of others is that Satan's challenge is that if you think the badness is coming from God you will not serve him.

This God God / Bad God issue is only a ploy of deception by Satan to get people to stop believing in God to prove that people only concerned for what benefits them.

As a judge, he himself can do very little involved in the case, so the Angels act on his behalf.

Happy_Killbot

@Sand

First off I would like to point out that humans are not that special in the intelligence department, with the exception of the fact that we have all the qualities necessary for sapience in one package. Every cognitive function found in humans can be found elsewhere in the animal kingdom. Dolphins for example, have most of the same cognitive abilities as humans do, most of their inability to match humans in capability has to do with the fact that they have no hands.

Doesn't the fact that DNA mutations occur and can be beneficial answer your abstract question? Cosmic rays can cause DNA changes essentially adding information to it. That's a pretty sound and irrefutable answer.

If god is neutral, then this means that the bible is false.

Exodus 34:6 "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth."
Psalm 25:8 "Good and upright is the Lord."
Psalm 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works."
Mark 10:8 "No one is good but One, that is, God"
James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning"
Mathew 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He knows those who trust in Him."
1 Chronicles 16:34 "Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever."
Luke 18:9 "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

If you deny these bible verses as true, then why do you accept the most absurd ones in Genesis? Seems like you have a double-standard for the bible.

This opens up another problem, which is the evil god paradox. If Satan is all evil, then shouldn't the world be completely overrun with chaos and destruction? The world is far to good for this to be true, thus Satan doesn't exist.

It is much more likely that people just made up god and then declared it to be good so they could ease their anxieties about a troubling and deeply unfair world such as it was before the age of enlightenment.

Sand

>>>First off I would like to point out that humans are not that special in the intelligence department, with the exception of the fact that we have all the qualities necessary for sapience in one package. Every cognitive function found in humans can be found elsewhere in the animal kingdom. Dolphins for example, have most of the same cognitive abilities as humans do, most of their inability to match humans in capability has to do with the fact that they have no hands.<<<

There are too many scientists that disagree because the results of these tests are open to human interpretation and susceptible to the Clever Hans effect.

The question is without training would a dolphin indicate these tendencies?

The answer is too many times, no.

>>>Doesn't the fact that DNA mutations occur and can be beneficial answer your abstract question? Cosmic rays can cause DNA changes essentially adding information to it. That's a pretty sound and irrefutable answer.<<<

Cosmic rays do not and cannot add information.

If you place any Cosmic ray on to paper, you are telling me it will write a story or breakdown of instructions?

You mean that Cosmic rays can alter, erase, or damage information that is already there.

To add information means to input additional facts.

My thoughts are not irrefutable. If you have an irrefutable answer, then provide a youtube demonstration of cosmic rays writing a story or providing instructions.

>>>If god is neutral, then this means that the bible is false.
Exodus 34:6 "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth."
Psalm 25:8 "Good and upright is the Lord."
Psalm 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works."
Mark 10:8 "No one is good but One, that is, God"
James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning"
Mathew 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He knows those who trust in Him."
1 Chronicles 16:34 "Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever."
Luke 18:9 "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."<<<

https://www.apursuitofjustice.com/the-qualities-of-a-good-judge/

How a Judge carries or sees himself has everything to do to his being neutral in weighing decisions.

>>>If you deny these bible verses as true, then why do you accept the most absurd ones in Genesis? Seems like you have a double-standard for the bible.<<<

I do not deny the scriptures.

>>>This opens up another problem, which is the evil god paradox. If Satan is all evil, then shouldn't the world be completely overrun with chaos and destruction? The world is far to good for this to be true, thus Satan doesn't exist.<<<

The world is too good?

How could you say that with 109 deaths by means of guns, per day!

There are 3417 crimes a day in the USA alone.

These are the ones that are reported.

Plus not to talk about world statistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

If this is your definition of good I hate to see your definition of evil.

Nevertheless, getting back to the point, much to people misunderstanding of Satan. His ploy was not to kill people and make life miserable. He wanted to garnish worship for himself.

That is why the challenge to allow Humans to choose for themselves.

>>>It is much more likely that people just made up god and then declared it to be good so they could ease their anxieties about a troubling and deeply unfair world such as it was before the age of enlightenment.<<<

To your understand and from your viewpoint. If you lived during those times and saw the things they saw, you would be saying the same information.

Happy_Killbot

@Sand

There are too many scientists that disagree because the results of these tests are open to human interpretation and susceptible to the Clever Hans effect.

The question is without training would a dolphin indicate these tendencies?

The answer is too many times, no.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2587914/

Cosmic rays do not and cannot add information.

If you place any Cosmic ray on to paper, you are telling me it will write a story or breakdown of instructions?

You mean that Cosmic rays can alter, erase, or damage information that is already there.

To add information means to input additional facts.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5460239/  <--- This is about DNA damage in Space but they site  tons of study that get the point across.

No, it would work more like this: Lets say you are an ancient librarian who is plagued by bookworms. (radiation) You have a large collection of books you would like to keep in order and not damaged as much as possible, with the intention of making as many copies as possible. (replication) You can only copy one book at a time, however you also employ a monkey, who can look through the books very quickly and can see when pages are damaged and then attempts to put the book back together, although the monkey doesn't know what the words mean. (There are proteins which do this with DNA) When you make a copy of a book, if you find one that doesn't make sense, you throw it out because it is too damaged and is considered lost. Thankfully you have lots of copies of each book. However, after a while, the books start to change, and the originals being long since lost due to damage are no longer present to compare against. This is because although the bookworms don't know what they are doing, and neither does the monkey, they can occasionally say, remove unnecessary words and the monkey can add words that were never supposed to be there. If they by chance, happen to put together a sentence that is coherent, then you will not notice in copying the book. Over time the books can change, sometimes entire sentences get moved, removed, or repeated. And the meaning of the book changes with it.

Now couple this process with something to remove the books if they are not good reads, say for example books that are boring or the public doesn't like do not get returned to the library, and suddenly the changes will start to manifest in ways that seem intentional- As the bad books are lost and thus can not be copied, only the good books will survive, and in fact they will over time get better, as words and sentences are replaced with better ones, more compelling stories and characters emerge, and books change into entirely different genres gradually over time.

This is analogous to what happens with DNA and evolution.

How a Judge carries or sees himself has everything to do to his being neutral in weighing decisions.

You didn't answer the question or solve the problem in any way. The bible doesn't say god is a judge, it says very plainly that god is good. In ancient times, what you are saying would be heresy.

I do not deny the scriptures.

But you did as shown above.

The world is too good?

How could you say that with 109 deaths by means of guns, per day!

There are 3417 crimes a day in the USA alone.

These are the ones that are reported.

Plus not to talk about world statistics.

There are 327.2 million people in the US. You are telling me that because 3417 crimes happen a day and 327.2 million do not that the world is evil? There are so many more good than evil people, it would seem that evil doesn't exist any more than good does.

Almost like they are human abstractions or something...

If this is your definition of good I hate to see your definition of evil.

Nevertheless, getting back to the point, much to people misunderstanding of Satan. His ploy was not to kill people and make life miserable. He wanted to garnish worship for himself.

That is why the challenge to allow Humans to choose for themselves.

My definition for evil is the same as my definition of good. I do not see any evidence that they exist, and rather I only see intentions, execution of action, and consequences of those actions. There is no room for "good and evil" as I see it, everything just is.

To your understand and from your viewpoint. If you lived during those times and saw the things they saw, you would be saying the same information.

If I saw the supernatural things happening in the bible as described I would most likely consider myself insane before assuming it was real. If someone told me directly they saw the supernatural things described in the bible occurring, I would consider them insane or a . If I, a group of people saw the supernatural things happening as described in the bible, I would look for all possible explanations, and if none can be found then conclude that what was witnessed probably happened but we don't know why. Then if we can not reproduce the events, I would conclude that it didn't happen.

People want to see what they want to see, and if they don't see it they will rationalize away an answer rather than excepting that they were wrong. Have you heard about the "seekers" UFO cult? I'm just saying, this kind of stuff can happen today why not 2,000 years ago or older? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

TruthSearcher

Why would a good God put fossils on earth to confuse us and make us fight with each other on whether or not he exists?  He would either want us to know or he does.  If he had designed us, then he would know how our brains work.  Why confuse us with all of this evidence of life going back millions of years.  Evidence, by the way which also aligns with a lot of other evidence around the development of the earth and the universe.  Makes 0 sense.

Sand

@TruthSearcher

What is sadder is the people that allow themselves to be confused.

When these same people never question the maker of the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, and other buildings made by man.

Sand

@Happy_Killbot

>>>This is analogous to what happens with DNA and evolution.<<<

Good analogy, nevertheless, eventually when two libraries exchange books, that altered book is thrown out.

This always happens with hybrids and mutations, the altered information is never considered acceptable.

It is the exact reason why birds will never turn into a reptile, amphibian into a mammal, fish into a bird, or vise versa.

Because the gaps between the species are too far, you cannot adjust slowly.

Hybrids and mutations can never bear offspring.

That is why many evolutionists are now saying that species just suddenly appeared called the Cambrian period.

Plus you didn't answer the request in any way.

Please give an example where matter gives information and adds it to or increases it in the genome.

Let me explain it in a way that is more straight forward.

Please give an example where matter writes a computer program.

If you know anything about a computer program if you take a DVD and scratch it. The program tries to heal itself, by guessing the number. But if any of the material is lost the program crashes, or it will work slightly and then crash.

So the same with hybrids and mutations even anything alters the genome, the offspring throws it out.

You are showing altering something that is already there.

>>>You didn't answer the question or solve the problem in any way. The bible doesn't say god is a judge, it says very plainly that god is good. In ancient times, what you are saying would be heresy.<<<

Genesis 30:6 - "And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan."
Judges 11:27 - "Therefore I have not sinned against you, but you wronged me by fighting against me. May the LORD, the Judge, render judgment this day between the children of Israel and the people of Ammon.’ ”"
1 Samuel 24:15 - "Therefore let the LORD be judge, and judge between you and me, and see and plead my case, and deliver me out of your hand.”"
Isaiah 33:22 - "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."
Psalms 50:6 - "Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. Selah"
Psalms 75:7 - "But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another."
Psalms 98:9 - "before the LORD, For He is coming to judge the earth. With righteousness He shall judge the world, And the peoples with equity."
Psalms 7:11 - "God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day."
Psalms 43:1 - "Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against an ungodly nation: O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man."
Ecclesiastes 3:17 - "I said in my heart, “God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.”""
Romans 3:6 - "Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?"
Hebrews 10:30 - "For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”"

God sees himself as good, and therefore in the position to Judge.

>>>There are 327.2 million people in the US. You are telling me that because 3417 crimes happen a day and 327.2 million do not that the world is evil? There are so many more good than evil people, it would seem that evil doesn't exist any more than good does.<<<

Oh, that's a different statement. Yes there is more good than evil people.

Nevertheless, that is not Satan's goal to make the world evil, he wants people to choose him and his ways, reject God and his ways.

How do you do that, you make the rules of love seem restrictive and there is no such thing as evil.

Simple.

>>>My definition for evil is the same as my definition of good. I do not see any evidence that they exist, and rather I only see intentions, execution of action, and consequences of those actions. There is no room for "good and evil" as I see it, everything just is.<<<

Wow, that is interesting. I don't believe you can ever be a Judge with that philosophy. If you did become a Judge and that statement got out, it would ruin your career.

As a Judge atheist or not you have to recognize moral excellence.

>>>If I saw the supernatural things happening in the bible as described I would most likely consider myself insane before assuming it was real. If someone told me directly they saw the supernatural things described in the bible occurring, I would consider them insane or a . If I, a group of people saw the supernatural things happening as described in the bible, I would look for all possible explanations, and if none can be found then conclude that what was witnessed probably happened but we don't know why. Then if we can not reproduce the events, I would conclude that it didn't happen.<<<

LOL, So you hear God speaking to you telling you to build a boat. You wouldn't do it. Just ignore the voice. LOL.

You know what that may have been what really happened to a lot of persons before Noah.

They just refused to acknowledge the voice.

When you see a burning bush you just going to keep walking! LOL.

You see a man walking on water but you just ignore him.

Your dead relative is brought back to life, but you act as if he is still dead. LOL!

I guess when God decides to speak to the world everyone will hear the voice but you will keep walking. LOL!

Happy_Killbot

@Sand

Good analogy, nevertheless, eventually when two libraries exchange books, that altered book is thrown out.
This always happens with hybrids and mutations, the altered information is never considered acceptable.

Donkey cant (for the most part) reproduce because they are too far apart genetically, but if the information is close enough then it can work. You do not have the same DNA as your spouse (if you are married) and do not need to to have children, unless inbreeding is your thing.

Plus you didn't answer the request in any way.

Please give an example where matter gives information and adds it to or increases it in the genome.

Let me explain it in a way that is more straight forward.

Please give an example where matter writes a computer program.

If you know anything about a computer program if you take a DVD and scratch it. The program tries to heal itself, by guessing the number. But if any of the material is lost the program crashes, or it will work slightly and then crash.

So the same with hybrids and mutations even anything alters the genome, the offspring throws it out.

You are showing altering something that is already there.

I am made of matter and I write computer programs. 

You need to understand the boundary conditions which lead to information getting "thrown out" (it means dying) makes it so that only the information that doesn't die doesn't get thrown out.

Genesis 30:6 - "And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan."

Judges 11:27 - "Therefore I have not sinned against you, but you wronged me by fighting against me. May the LORD, the Judge, render judgment this day between the children of Israel and the people of Ammon.’ ”"
1 Samuel 24:15 - "Therefore let the LORD be judge, and judge between you and me, and see and plead my case, and deliver me out of your hand.”"
Isaiah 33:22 - "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."
Psalms 50:6 - "Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. Selah"
Psalms 75:7 - "But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another."
Psalms 98:9 - "before the LORD, For He is coming to judge the earth. With righteousness He shall judge the world, And the peoples with equity."
Psalms 7:11 - "God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day."
Psalms 43:1 - "Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against an ungodly nation: O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man."
Ecclesiastes 3:17 - "I said in my heart, “God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.”""
Romans 3:6 - "Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?"
Hebrews 10:30 - "For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”"

God sees himself as good, and therefore in the position to Judge.

So then we have a contradiction in the bible, which is the subject of this debate. If god is all good, then it can not be all powerful. If he is all powerful it cannot be all good.

Oh, that's a different statement. Yes there is more good than evil people.

Nevertheless, that is not Satan's goal to make the world evil, he wants people to choose him and his ways, reject God and his ways.

How do you do that, you make the rules of love seem restrictive and there is no such thing as evil.

Simple.

Try this on for size: Suppose you were the devil 2050 years ago, and you wanted to make as many people turn from god as possible. What could you do to make that happen? The easiest and most effective way would perhaps be to make holy people think that some event which their prophecies predicted had happened when in fact it was a facade at your hand- you pretend to be a prophet from god and convince as many people as possible to turn from these ways. Specifically, you pretend to be Jesus. If you think about this, there is actually a lot of evidence to back this up, enough that it could be considered feasibly true (although I think it's )

How do you know that this did not occur?

Wow, that is interesting. I don't believe you can ever be a Judge with that philosophy. If you did become a Judge and that statement got out, it would ruin your career.

As a Judge atheist or not you have to recognize moral excellence.

Unless you are a child, you should know that the concepts of good and evil are not required for morality to exist. Morality is never black and white, nothing is ever clear, and most everything is morally ambiguous. A judge makes a decision not based on moral action, but based on the law for this reason. Suppose a judge doesn't like someone based on the color of their skin and uses the bible to justify that claim, the "mark of Canaan" as it were, this would be a travesty. Morality is what we all make it to be, and I have my own framework which is simple, robust, and most importantly, can feasibly written into an algorithm within a few decades.

The quantum of morality is but two words: Informed consent

Every interaction between people or in society can be deemed morally sound if it meets this standard, but it must be understood that it is a quantum, meaning that there are levels of morality which need to be built from it to analyze complex situations.

LOL, So you hear God speaking to you telling you to build a boat. You wouldn't do it. Just ignore the voice. LOL.

You know what that may have been what really happened to a lot of persons before Noah.

They just refused to acknowledge the voice.

When you see a burning bush you just going to keep walking! LOL.

You see a man walking on water but you just ignore him.

Your dead relative is brought back to life, but you act as if he is still dead. LOL!

I guess when God decides to speak to the world everyone will hear the voice but you will keep walking. LOL!

Have you never heard the stories of people shooting up nightclubs or drowning their own kids because "god" told them too? There is a horror movie about it...
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3357916
Nope, that's real life. This actually happens. Would you seriously suggest these people are not crazy?

This actually brings up an interesting point that I head in another debate recent:

In the bible, god tells Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice, supposedly to test his faith. Now if god is to be considered the ultimate good, why would it ever even suggest that? These are not the actions of an all good entity, and if that is what "god" is, then I would want nothing to do with it based solely on the fact that suggesting that someone kill their own son is something I find to be morally reprehensible and thoroughly repugnant, let alone going through with it.

Sand

>>>I am made of matter and I write computer programs.  <<<

Wow. That is pretty good!

Nevertheless, are making my point, you have intelligence!

>>>So then we have a contradiction in the bible, which is the subject of this debate. If God is all good, then it can not be all-powerful. If he is all-powerful it cannot be all good.<<<

I agree God is not all-powerful.

>>>Try this on for size: Suppose you were the devil 2050 years ago, and you wanted to make as many people turn from god as possible. What could you do to make that happen? The easiest and most effective way would perhaps be to make holy people think that some event which their prophecies predicted had happened when in fact it was a facade at your hand- you pretend to be a prophet from God and convince as many people as possible to turn from these ways. Specifically, you pretend to be Jesus. If you think about this, there is actually a lot of evidence to back this up, enough that it could be considered feasibly true (although I think it's )<<<

House divided against itself cannot stand.

So you are saying in order to prove someone is a fraud, you would make him look like he was true.

>>>Unless you are a child, you should know that the concepts of good and evil are not required for morality to exist. Morality is never black and white, nothing is ever clear, and most everything is morally ambiguous. A judge makes a decision not based on moral action, but based on the law for this reason. Suppose a judge doesn't like someone based on the color of their skin and uses the bible to justify that claim, the "mark of Canaan" as it were, this would be a travesty. Morality is what we all make it to be, and I have my own framework which is simple, robust, and most importantly, can feasibly written into an algorithm within a few decades.<<<

No one is claiming morality is black and white.

What we are claiming is there is a scale.

I am very interested in your statement:

>>>My definition for evil is the same as my definition of good. I do not see any evidence that they exist, and rather I only see intentions, execution of action, and consequences of those actions. There is no room for "good and evil" as I see it, everything just is.<<<

You are claiming there is no scale.

It is no good or bad and there is no evidence that they exist.

Everyone knows there are consequences for your actions.

How would you label the actions?

How would you distinguish between what is acceptable or not?

Would there be an unacceptable action?

What classes would you outline to breakdown the morality?

>>>The quantum of morality is but two words: Informed consent
Every interaction between people or in society can be deemed morally sound if it meets this standard, but it must be understood that it is a quantum, meaning that there are levels of morality which need to be built from it to analyze complex situations.<<<

True. But how do you characterize these complex situations?

How do you term the morally sound if it meets a standard?

Why is there a standard, if it is no good or evil?

Do you regulate informed consent on the majority?

>>>Have you never heard the stories of people shooting up nightclubs or drowning their own kids because "god" told them too? There is a horror movie about it...
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3357916

Nope, that's real life. This actually happens. Would you seriously suggest these people are not crazy?<<<

Yes. Just as crazy as the billions of secular crimes.

>>>This actually brings up an interesting point that I head in another debate recent:

In the bible, God tells Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice, supposedly to test his faith. Now if God is to be considered the ultimate good, why would it ever even suggest that? These are not the actions of an all-good entity, and if that is what "god" is, then I would want nothing to do with it based solely on the fact that suggesting that someone kill their own son is something I find to be morally reprehensible and thoroughly repugnant, let alone going through with it.<<<

I see your reasoning.

Nevertheless, I believe this is very simple.

God created Eve for Adam and Adam betrayed God because he loved the creation more than the creator.

So God made it possible for Abraham to have Isaac, but only as a test, he asked to sacrifice his son to determine if he valued the creation more than the creator.

There was no risk in play because God would prevent him from actually going through with it.

Test with no risk.

Nevertheless, Parents in secular society are asked to sacrifice their children all the time for the country.

To give their lives and it is not a test, the real risk is involved, real death has happened over and over.

These ones are labeled heroes for their country.

But getting to the real question.

How can you depict God as evil when you do not believe evil exists?

I think it is duplicitous of you to not only comment on an entity that you do not believe exists but the characteristics that you refer to that entity do not exist.

Happy_Killbot

@Sand Did you know that there are computer programs that write computer programs? I think it is dubious to think that humans are intelligent. Besides, being made of matter and energy is the only way to do things with matter and energy. Matter and energy are the only things that can give information to other matter and energy.

I agree God is not all-powerful

Then You don't agree with the bible. Why is it okay for you to ignore some parts and accept others? 

House divided against itself cannot stand.

So you are saying in order to prove someone is a fraud, you would make him look like he was true.

Is he divided against himself? There are Christian fundamentalists who will tell you that Muhammad was the devil, and there are Muslim fundamentalists who will tell you that Jesus was not who he said he was. Many people accept that Joseph Smith, who founded the Mormon church was a con man. Why is it so hard to think that either Jesus was a narcissistic  con man himself, or the devil pulling off his greatest lie every? The point is, all of these things are possible, we don't know which if any are correct.

No one is claiming morality is black and white.

What we are claiming is there is a scale

I don't think there can be a 1-dimensional analysis of morality.

You are claiming there is no scale.

It is no good or bad and there is no evidence that they exist.

Everyone knows there are consequences for your actions.

How would you label the actions?

How would you distinguish between what is acceptable or not?

Would there be an unacceptable action?

What classes would you outline to breakdown the morality?

The answer is that I wouldn't break it down into classes, I would build it up from quanta. Rather than start from the top and work down, I start from the bottom and work up. For example, one might look at a plant or animal and say "that is a tree, and that is a deer" I would say, that is a collection of atoms forming molecules which form cells, that build tissues, creating an independent organism."

True. But how do you characterize these complex situations?

How do you term the morally sound if it meets a standard?

Why is there a standard, if it is no good or evil?

Do you regulate informed consent on the majority?

For me, I choose informed consent to be the quantum of morality, but this is just my subjective opinion. When two people know what is going on and agree to it, that is the simplest example of a moral action. These actions however build on each other- for example, a free market is impossible without it, but a slave market violates it. All of our institutions and authority can be constructed from some combination of these two factors, for example democracies can be shown to be generally more moral than an autocracy, because they are based on group consensus to the rules of democracy, rather than imposed by a single ruling entity. Authoritarians despise free flow of information, and often seek to stop it altogether.

There is no such thing as "good" or "evil" but there is such a thing as an objectively superior society, and that is in physical terms, for example one society can be objectively happier or longer average life span than another, or have an objectively higher standard of living. These things can make a society be more likely to gain economic advantage, or enable greater projection of power and influence, which then further increases it's potential. We don't need the words "good" and "evil" to describe what is objectively superior, they are just shorthand ways of saying this, and they often severely oversimplify the reality.

Yes. Just as crazy as the billions of secular crimes.

Technically, every crime committed in the US is a secular crime because the US is a secular nation. However, maybe you don't accept that because it seems disconnected. Alright, so lets compare homicide rates in highly religious nations to secular ones:


We see that there is a positive correlation between the two, indicating that the more religious a nation is, the more violent crime there is. For this reason, it is objectively true to say that  secular nations are less violent on average than deeply religious ones.

I see your reasoning.

Nevertheless, I believe this is very simple.

God created Eve for Adam and Adam betrayed God because he loved the creation more than the creator.

So God made it possible for Abraham to have Isaac, but only as a test, he asked to sacrifice his son to determine if he valued the creation more than the creator.

There was no risk in play because God would prevent him from actually going through with it.

Test with no risk.

Nevertheless, Parents in secular society are asked to sacrifice their children all the time for the country.

To give their lives and it is not a test, the real risk is involved, real death has happened over and over.

These ones are labeled heroes for their country.

I think you miss the point, why would anyone want to have a god who tells you to sacrifice your own son, be it a test or otherwise?
These seem like the actions of a deeply immoral entity.

If your last 3 sentences are talking about our troops, then I'm going to have to personally ask you to stop being ignorant. The parents do not choose if their sons and daughters should join the military, the individuals must make that determination themselves. One of the first things that you must do when joining the military is to sign official documents, one of the points on which is to ensure that no one coerced or blackmailed you into joining the military. 

But getting to the real question.

How can you depict God as evil when you do not believe evil exists?

I think it is duplicitous of you to not only comment on an entity that you do not believe exists but the characteristics that you refer to that entity do not exist.

That's very simple: I don't think that god exists either. All i'm saying is that the way god behaves as depicted in the bible is not the actions of a benevolent entity, but rather of a genocidal authoritarian maniac. The point I am trying to convey, is that anyone who does believe in god as depicted in the bible, must themselves have a corrupted moral compass to call him good, if they will defend him for all the killing, rape, genocide, slavery, and anarchy that god declares his own action.

Something a lot of people don't realize, but that is scientifically true is that people don't have a clue what the bible says god's morals are, instead they project their own morals onto god. What this means is that when asked about what god thinks is moral and is not moral will align with their own personal views of morality. So for example, the deranged killer who believes god will give him eternal life if he just kills that woman, thinks this because they believe that god wants that too. The anti-LGBTQ crowd says things like "god hates fags" not because the bible is strictly against homosexuals, (in many ways it actually allows it) but because the people saying that hate fags, and then project that assumption onto god.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/12/01/0908374106.abstract