Is it a choice to ruin other living beings choices just to fill your stomach?

RS_master

@maxx Those are only a few websites. How do you know those are reliable?

maxx

this is why I normally suggest one go to a college and look some of this up in science journals. however even in biology 101, you can tell the difference between humans and true meat eaters. @RS_master

JGXdebatePRO

@RS_master

being at the top of the food chain does not give people the "choice" to imprison and mass slaughter animals. nothing on this scale is present in the animal kingdom.

JGXdebatePRO

The food chain is also a construct created by humans and there is no indication that we are, in fact, apex predators.

RS_master

@JGXdebatePRO + @maxx

Our ancestors are all omnivores and we do not share all features with omnivores so we can also eat vegetables. We can eat both so it is a choice. Domestic cats eat fish but are similiar(partially) to us.
On to the next point: The higher in the food chain you are the more choice you have, like the hierarchy. Lions are considered the kings of the animal kingdom because of the same reasoning.

JGXdebatePRO

As I have stated before, the food chain is an artificial construct created by humans to justify our acts of violence towards animals. And to floxynoxynipifilicate your second advocation, humans have only used meat as a food source in desperate situations.

xlJ_dolphin_473

RS_master said:

JGXdebatePRO said:

@MayCaesar So let me get this straight... You believe that nutrients are worth a life? You believe that a choice is still a choice if it slaughters an innocent being? Let me ask you a question. If you were forced to kill for meat, and end the animal's life for food, would you do it? this is the same as having meat on your plate.

@JGXdebatePRO
At the end, it is still a choice. As I said at the beginning, it is part of the food chain. Lions, they eat antelope because being at the top f the food chain, they get their respect and freedom. Because we are not the bottom we too should get respect and freedom. 

@JGXdebatePRO

I agree with @RS_master, we are very fortunate to be top of the food chain because it means we have respect and freedom. I often do bushcraft. In bushcraft you are often faced with situations where you must kill an animal to eat and thus survive. I see no wrong in this. Humans are at the top of the food chain, meaning we get freedom to eat the animals below us in the food chain. 

maxx

regardless, and biologically speaking, we are not true carnivores.  are so called canine teeth are not capable of tearing into a live elk and we do not tear huge chucks of bloody flesh from an animal and gulp it down, it is very easy to go to a college and look up in biology journals to see how our bodies were designed for fruits, veggies, seeds, grains, and nuts, not meat. @xlJ_dolphin_473

xlJ_dolphin_473

maxx said:

regardless, and biologically speaking, we are not true carnivores.  are so called canine teeth are not capable of tearing into a live elk and we do not tear huge chucks of bloody flesh from an animal and gulp it down, it is very easy to go to a college and look up in biology journals to see how our bodies were designed for fruits, veggies, seeds, grains, and nuts, not meat. @xlJ_dolphin_473

No, we evolved to eat cooked food, not raw. Humans are pretty much unique in this respect, but that does not make them ‘false carnivores’. Our ancestors’ bodies were designed for raw meat, but we then evolved to eat cooked food instead.

maxx

let me flat out ask you. considering the way our bodies are designed, do you actually believe we evolved to eat raw animals@RS_master

xlJ_dolphin_473

maxx said:

let me flat out ask you. considering the way our bodies are designed, do you actually believe we evolved to eat raw animals @RS_master

No, but our ancestors did. We then evolved to eat cooked animals. Take the appendix for example. It is proof that some hominids ate raw meat. We then learnt the skill of fire and started cooking. For this reason, we no longer needed such a big digestive system, so it shrunk and became more refined.

JGXdebatePRO

RS_master said:

@maxx You have not rebutted my ancestor point or food chain point. We and our most recent ancestors are classified as omnivores. We are also near the top of the food chain thus we have the freedom of eating animals below. As my friend @xlJ_dolphin_473 stated, we have the choice.
Now for rebuttal... Some humans are still hunter gatherers. Most of the population still prefer meat.

Do you have any evidence we are "near the top of the food chain"? or are you making the unjustified assumption that humans are superior to animals? And to rebut your point on humans still being "hunter-gatherers" do you kill for your meat? No, i believe not. Humans view meat as a food, not as what it is, a corpse. Next time you eat you're meat, think about the innocent, happy life that animal was having before YOU indirectly slaughtered it.

maxx

um, I suggest that you look up as to why we evolved an appendix@xlJ_dolphin_473

RS_master

JGXdebatePRO said:

RS_master said:

@maxx You have not rebutted my ancestor point or food chain point. We and our most recent ancestors are classified as omnivores. We are also near the top of the food chain thus we have the freedom of eating animals below. As my friend @xlJ_dolphin_473 stated, we have the choice.
Now for rebuttal... Some humans are still hunter gatherers. Most of the population still prefer meat.

Do you have any evidence we are "near the top of the food chain"? or are you making the unjustified assumption that humans are superior to animals? And to rebut your point on humans still being "hunter-gatherers" do you kill for your meat? No, i believe not. Humans view meat as a food, not as what it is, a corpse. Next time you eat you're meat, think about the innocent, happy life that animal was having before YOU indirectly slaughtered it.

@JGXdebatePRO ;   There are still hunter - gatherers in Papa New Guinea and Australia. And I have said that vegetarians lack 4 minerals or vitamins and need to take artificial vitamin tablets which are worse than getting them naturally and adding on you have not rebutted the food chain point.

RS_master

maxx said:

um, I suggest that you look up as to why we evolved an appendix@xlJ_dolphin_473

@maxx We evolved for our appendix to go because that is for raw meat and now we eat cooked meat and not raw so we have a lower risk of disease or virus. The appendix used to do it but because cooked meat is safer we do not need our appendix anymore.

xlJ_dolphin_473

JGXdebatePRO said:

The food chain is also a construct created by humans and there is no indication that we are, in fact, apex predators.

Good try, but the food chain is backed by centuries of scientific research. We as humans are pretty unique in the respect that we worked our way to the top of the food chain via cunning and our ability to work in teams as opposed to sheer physical prowess. @JGXdebatePRO

maxx

https://www.livescience.com/32105-why-do-we-have-an-appendix.htmlRS_master

maxx

and know, we can get all the vitamins and minerals that we need from a plant based diet.  list the 4 vitamins and minerals that you claim we can only get from meat @RS_master

xlJ_dolphin_473

maxx said:

and know, we can get all the vitamins and minerals that we need from a plant based diet.  list the 4 vitamins and minerals that you claim we can only get from meat @RS_master

I will do it for @RS_master.They are:

• Vitamin B-12
• Creatine
• Vitamin D-3
• DHA
• @RS_master

just to name a few.

xlJ_dolphin_473

JGXdebatePRO said:

RS_master said:

@maxx You have not rebutted my ancestor point or food chain point. We and our most recent ancestors are classified as omnivores. We are also near the top of the food chain thus we have the freedom of eating animals below. As my friend @xlJ_dolphin_473 stated, we have the choice.
Now for rebuttal... Some humans are still hunter gatherers. Most of the population still prefer meat.

Do you have any evidence we are "near the top of the food chain"? or are you making the unjustified assumption that humans are superior to animals? And to rebut your point on humans still being "hunter-gatherers" do you kill for your meat? No, i believe not. Humans view meat as a food, not as what it is, a corpse. Next time you eat you're meat, think about the innocent, happy life that animal was having before YOU indirectly slaughtered it.

@JGXdebatePRO
Your argument is deeply flawed. Let me draw your attention to the fact that:

• The animal was not having an "innocent, happy life". Calves are kept in tiny cages for their entire short lives, and the only time they get to stretch their muscles and be with other cows is on the way to the abattoir. 
• Plenty of other animals eat meat for food, and view animals as a meat.
• Humans are superior to animals, and have been for millions of years. It is our superior intelligence and ability to work in teams that gives us this superiority. @JGXdebatePRO

maxx

soybeans and mushrooms for vitamin 12 creatine is a non essential amino acid produced by the body.  dha is found in walnuts, seaweed, hempseed and so on. our bodies produce d-3 from sunshine xlJ_dolphin_473

xlJ_dolphin_473

maxx said:

soybeans and mushrooms for vitamin 12 creatine is a non essential amino acid produced by the body.  dha is found in walnuts, seaweed, hempseed and so on. our bodies produce d-3 from sunshine xlJ_dolphin_473

Even if you don't strictly need them, if you have healthy levels of them, you will lead a much healthier life. Vegans are more likely to have health complications as their immune systems will be weaker @maxx

maxx

I do not see our closest realitives, chimps suffering  the point is we do not need meat.  and while not strictly a vegetatian diet; an egg is a whole food and contains everything we need to survive@xlJ_dolphin_473

RS_master

maxx said:

and know, we can get all the vitamins and minerals that we need from a plant based diet.  list the 4 vitamins and minerals that you claim we can only get from meat @RS_master






@maxx They are : 
iron
iodine 
omega 3
calcium (you say it comes from milk, I reply milk is from cows)

RS_master

maxx said:

I do not see our closest realitives, chimps suffering  the point is we do not need meat.  and while not strictly a vegetatian diet; an egg is a whole food and contains everything we need to survive@xlJ_dolphin_473

Where did you get that conclusion from @maxx ?

maxx

uhh,,, eggs contain every nutrient "required " by the human body to survive.  look it up@RS_master

RS_master

@maxx Eggs do not contain "every" , as you state, nutrient. About half.

maxx

i said every "required " nutrient needed by the human body; and if there are any lacking, the remainder can be made up with plants.  we do not need meat to survive and I want you to provide a link that shows meat eaters are healthier than veggies @RS_master

xlJ_dolphin_473

maxx said:

i said every "required " nutrient needed by the human body; and if there are any lacking, the remainder can be made up with plants.  we do not need meat to survive and I want you to provide a link that shows meat eaters are healthier than veggies @RS_master

Here you go. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vegetarians-are-less-healthy-and-have-a-lower-quality-of-life-than-meateaters-scientists-say-9236340.html

maxx

that's dumb on the face of it.  the cancer causing carcinogens in meat alone is unhealthy, not to mention other cancer causing compounds in cooked food.https://www.wisegeek.com/has-it-been-proven-that-a-vegetarian-diet-is-really-healthier.htm ; you have people believe in an independent you tube site?  veggies have less health problems and tend to live longer.  @xlJ_dolphin_473

RS_master

maxx said:

i said every "required " nutrient needed by the human body; and if there are any lacking, the remainder can be made up with plants.  we do not need meat to survive and I want you to provide a link that shows meat eaters are healthier than veggies @RS_master

@maxx You did not say every required nutrient. You need enough of each nutrient to survive. Some are more important, some are less. Egg does not contain iodine or omega 3. Egg is also the baby of an animal hence only just about sits on the vegetarian side.

maxx

egg yolks have some omega3. yet let us assume that they do not. you can get both omega 3, and iodine in plant based foods. I agree that in our evolutionary history, we began eating meat and it probably made us stronger and perhaps helped in our overall intelligence; however;  it is also one of the leading causes of blocked arteries, heart disease, and colon cancer.  you can choose to suffer with the above problems all you want, but considering that we can do fine with out it, then why bother suffering?  just because you like the taste? That would be little difference than people suffering from liver and kidney problems because they enjoy the taste of drinking. I have shown you we can live and get all the required nutrients without eating meat. what is the issue from this point? @RS_master

RS_master

@maxx egg yolks do not have omega 3. The only things that have it are fish, meat and vitamin tablets. Vitamin tabletss are less healthy because they artificial thus do not have the sufficient amount and you could forget them hence meat is the best way to get it.

xlJ_dolphin_473

RS_master said:

@maxx egg yolks do not have omega 3. The only things that have it are fish, meat and vitamin tablets. Vitamin tabletss are less healthy because they artificial thus do not have the sufficient amount and you could forget them hence meat is the best way to get it.

I agree. Egg yolks do not have a significant amount of omega 3, unlike fish.

maxx

if hens are fed seed that is fortified with omega 3 then the yolks will have it. as well nuts have omega 3 and so does soybeans, and seeds.  the issue is between eating meat and vegetarians. we can get all the nutrients we need without eating meat.   vegetarians are healither in general while eating meat is one of the leading causes of blocked arteries, heart disease, colon cance, obesity, and diabeties@RS_master

RickeyD

Stop seeking to live as a petulant socialist...stop seeking to "ban" the rights and privileges of a free people.

piloteer

JGXdebatePRO said:

As I have stated before, the food chain is an artificial construct created by humans to justify our acts of violence towards animals. And to floxynoxynipifilicate your second advocation, humans have only used meat as a food source in desperate situations.

@JGXdebatePRO

Humans have teeth that are made for ripping flesh. If we have only relied on meat in times of desperation, how did we evolve to have the teeth we have to be able to eat animals?  

maxx

we evolved teeth to eat tough plant material, not to rip and tear through a live animal hide@piloteer

maxx

ever hear of Daniel eating only puce?@RickeyD

RickeyD

@maxx ; That was Daniel's freedom of choice...not a mandate.

maxx

i know that, but even according to your religion, the absence of meat made him healthier than those who ate meat@RickeyD

maxx

i know that, but even according to your religion, the absence of meat made him healthier than those who ate meat@RickeyD

RickeyD

@maxx Not necessarily...Daniel fasted for our Lord...it was Daniel's faith and obedience that made him healthy and wise, not the absence of meat...which is essential for a strong and healthy body over time. The Scriptures, subsequent to man's rebellion in Eden, provides meat as sustenance for our bodies. This truism carried over to Noah, Abraham, Moses, the blood sacrifices into the Covenant of Grace. If you "choose" to deny yourself meat, that is your option but I am free to eat or not eat.

RS_master

maxx said:

if hens are fed seed that is fortified with omega 3 then the yolks will have it. as well nuts have omega 3 and so does soybeans, and seeds.  the issue is between eating meat and vegetarians. we can get all the nutrients we need without eating meat.   vegetarians are healither in general while eating meat is one of the leading causes of blocked arteries, heart disease, colon cance, obesity, and diabeties@RS_master

@maxx omega 3 is mainly found in fish. It is a choice to eat meat. I would because it is tastier and is packed with some nutrients of which some are not found anywhere else. Meat gives you a bit more protein than vegetables which you can use to exercise to prevent the diseases you mentioned.

maxx

again, you can get omega 3 through nuts and seeds and we can get plenty of plant protein just by eating more plant material. I do not see what your issue is aside from taste; meat is not healthy for humans, cancer causing carcinogens, heart problems, colon and kidney problems, obesity and diabetics are just of the few problems we get by long term consumtion of meat in which we do not get  from a veggie diet. how can you refute this aside from" well meat tastes good@RS_master

maxx

prove it.  prove meat is healty for humans.  go ahead, look up what is in processed cooked meat@RickeyD

RickeyD

Is it moral or right to destroy the life of our most innocent in order to pursue your narcissistic goals as an atheist? Is one's food choices more relevant and important than the life of a child in the womb?

maxx

  this post has nothing to do with abortion.  go troll eleswhere @RickeyD

RickeyD

@maxx ; It has everything to do with abortion, atheist. You suggested and asked...

Is it a choice to ruin other living beings choices just to fill your stomach?

Likewise...is it a "choice" to kill a baby just to fill your lust and desires for freedom from your choices? Don't you see the irrefutable similarities? Hypocrite much?

maxx

it is bad enough that you can not stick to the subject without inserting religion on a debate topic that has nothing to do with religion; you also plagiarize other people works with your copy and paste because you do not give credits and references to the one who originally produced the photo.  That is called stealing.  what a christian hat you are@RickeyD