Should We Tolerate Bigotry In Schools?

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Schools should not discriminate against students

@Swolliw
Public schools should not discriminate against students because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. Unfortunately, this happens every day.  This past week, one of the most elite public high schools in American, Thomas Jefferson, was caught having not given out over 1,200 merit awards, nor notifying the students that they one them.  Many elite schools look for merit award winners and use it as a part of what they consider in accepting students.  The reason the school did this was because they claimed it was not equitable to students who did not receive the merit awards.  This isn't the first time the school has blatantly discriminated against a student because of her ethnicity.  Last year, a federal court struct down a racial admission policy, at the school, that had been enacted to deliberately lower Asian enrollment..  

According to Harvard Review, a study showed that in order to be admitted to certain selective institutions (ie - Harvard), Asian applicants needed to score — on the 1600 point scale of the “old SAT” — 140 points higher than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics, and 450 points higher than African Americans if other factors are held equal.  Further, 50 percent of Asian students who are not accepted have higher GPAs and SAT scores than the average Black student accepted at Harvard or Princeton.  Princeton has said that without discriminating against Asians through affirmative action the acceptance rate for African-American candidates likely would fall nearly two-thirds, from 33.7 percent to 12.2 percent,  Affirmative Action policies and deliberately hidden policies that favor certain races while penalizing others are common at most US colleges and universities.  

Bogan

One man's bigot is another man's truth seeker.

Bogan

SAT scores which simply measured IQ were once hailed by leftists as the best way for students from disadvantaged schools to gain admittance to ivy league universities.    The SAT score was independent of school examination results and teacher assessments.   In those heady days, when leftists were as utterly convinced of racial equality, they fully supported the idea of scientists called Cognitive Metricians using unbiased means to assess students, would be the answer to African American underrepresentation in US universities.   

Unfortunately for them, the unbiased science told a different story to what the leftists so desperately wanted to believe.     Low SAT scores among African Americans in particular simply reinforced the already known factor that few Africans had the IQ to handle subjects at the university level.    The leftists then did an about face and then condemned the very science that they had once championed, which proved their dearest belief wrong.    Unsurprisingly, the SAT scores reflected the already appreciated IQ layering of western society with Jews and Asians the smartest, whites a bit lower down in IQ, and Hispanics and African Americans on the bottom. 

"Anti-racist" activists" then lobbied congress to "correct" the supposed biases of scientists and enact the racist policy of Affirmative Action.   Affirmative Action would see racial quotes for student admission.    This of course, was pure racism as selecting students solely on the basis of their skin colour is what 'anti racists" are supposed to be fighting against.    But hypocrisy is okay if you can figure out a way to make it look acceptable to your supporters, who are only too glad to find a way to by pass their own principles to help the minorities who are their new electoral base. 

Of course, critics of Affirmative Action simply pointed out that if African people were not smart enough to handle university level higher learning, then this would simply be reflected in the fact that the Africans would not even bother to enroll in the difficult STEM courses, they would just do bu-m degrees like Artz which would not do much for their employment prospects.   Surprise, surprise, the critics were right all along.     Black African enrollments in STEM courses is practically non existent while drop out rates are very high.     What resulted was African blacks doing all sorts of weird university courses like....

1.  "Porn",
2.   "White Fragility" 
3.   Politicizing Beyonce
4.    Harry Potter and The Age of Illusion
5.    the Phallus studies
6.   the Art of Walking
7.  Lady Gaga and the Sociology of Fame.
8.   the Simpsons and Philosophy
9.   A Course in Stupidity   (a must for leftists) 
10.  How To Train the Jedi Way.

Can you imagine a diplomad black African going to a job interview and telling the recruiter that he has a degree in "White Fragility"?   And they wonder why they can't get a job?

As pointed out by just-sayin, schools can no longer have awards ceremonies where the top performing students get awards.    Because that would once again show that there is a problem with certain ethnicities who are obviously under represented in awards.      And we can't have that, can we?    We must keep believing in racial equality and nothing can be tolerated which may lead people to a different conclusion.   You must BELIEVE!     YOU MUST BELIEVE!

I would opine that leftist activists know just as well as I do that races are not equal.    But the problem is, they have banked their entire  fantasy of a race and class blind utopia on this principle, and they can not see how they can back down on it now.    So just like very religious people who gaze forlornly at the fossils in museums, and who dream up all sorts of silly "theories to explain away an unpleasant truth, leftists today will do anything to stop people thinking straight about race. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: There is the Model Minority Myth with Asians.

@just_sayin

Asians are often used to justify the white supremacist status quo. Ignoring that only some Asians are included, often Pacific Islanders are omitted. Also ignoring that Asians worker harder than whites and hit glass ceilings, management is often denied to Asians.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/model-minority-myth-says-asians-are-successful-dangerous-rcna420

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Democrats have a racism problem

@Dreamer
I'm sure that some will rationalize their racism and claim that it is good racism, that is if they are willing to be honest and admit that it is racism at all.  They think that racist policies like Affirmative Action are good because they are well intentioned.  The problem with well-intentioned racism though is that it is still racism.  Whether it is systemic racism against whites and Asians in the form of racist Affirmative Action laws, or discriminating against Blacks and Hispanics by white supremacists; all racism should be condemned.  

Princeton argued that if it cut out its affirmative action admission policies that it would benefit Asian students the most.  It said that 4 out of 5 of every positions that Blacks would lose would go to Asians.  Whites would barely benefit, with just an increase of .5%.  They really thought that was an argument to continue their discriminatory policy.  So let's be clear, it isn't white supremacists that are discriminating against Asian students in admissions.  Its leftists.

Asian students, on average do study more - 15-plus hours per week in comparison with white students who spend a little over 10 hours per week, and with black and Hispanic students who spend less time. My response is students should be rewarded for their hard work, rather than penalized as Democrat politicians in New York have tried to do, and penalize poor Asian students to lower their percentages of getting into elite science and technology public schools in NYC.  No one should be discriminated against because of her race - no matter what Democrat politicians argue.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: 70% of Asian Americans support affrimative action.

@just_sayin

Affirmative action helps Asians. Too many white students get into ivy league schools for athletics and legacy reasons.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/70-asian-americans-support-affirmative-action-here-s-why-misconceptions-n1247806

Bogan

@Dreamer ;  Asians are often used to justify the white supremacist status quo.

If Asians do better in white society that even whites themselves, then quite obviously there isn't any white supremacist status quo, is there?   I will bet that you did not think that little slogan up yourself?    You probably looked up a web page entitle "How to debate racists" and you copied down whatever they claimed was an appropriate response to this inconvenient fact..    I get this a lot.   My opponents submit slogans and chant mantras that they read, or heard about somewhere else, but they never took the time to think about whether or not their slogans made any sense before they submitted them as an argument..

Dreamer wrote     Ignoring that only some Asians are included, often Pacific Islanders are omitted.

A case in point.   You are smart enough to know that Pacific Islanders are not Asians.   Somebody else wrote this rubbish, didn't they?   And they knew that you would accept it without even thinking about it.    They have got you house trained,      If I were you, I would be starting  to get a glimmer of how the people you support think you are such a fo-ol that they know you would accept such a premise without question.    They are treating you like a fool, and if I were you, I would start getting angry about that and start to be more discerning about what they write.

Dreamer wrote      Also ignoring that Asians worker harder than whites 

Oh goody, now I can teach you a thing or two.    Firstly, saying that Asians work harder than whites is a racist statement.      I know it is true, but that is not the point.    It is still racism to claim that one race does things better than another race.    Everybody is supposed to be the same, remember?     "There is only  one race, the human race", sort of thing.      Another, saying that Asians work harder than whites is stereotyping Asians and whites.  It stereotypes Asians with a positive prejudgment and it stereotypes whites with a negative prejudgment,.   That is okay, everybody stereotypes and prejudges because that  is how the human mind forms concepts to think.     But anti racists claim it is utterly wrong to stereotype and prejudge, even though they do it themselves all the time.    if i was to say that "Africans are violent and lazy", you would scream "racism" over that (even though it is largely true)     What anti racists are really saying is that the minority groups they champion (and who's votes they want) must never be criticised.    Such a position is intellectually unsupportable.    In the western tradition of free speech, nobody is above criticism.  Not the Pope, the President, the Speaker of the House, Nazis, commies, or minority groups.  

I would metaphorically love to get my hands around the throat of the trendy lefty who wrote this garbage down which you cut and pasted.   These people are easy meat for an informed person like myself who discovered that I could look beyond their pithy slogans and irrational arguments.

Dreamer wrote   ....and hit glass ceilings, management is often denied to Asians.

I do not know if this is correct or not.   But once again, if the author of this nonsense admits that Asians do better than whites in white society, then saying that Asians are denied management positions does not make any sense.

 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Pacific Islanders are Asian.

@Bogan

"By painting millions of Asian Americans with the broad brush of universal success, academics and activists say damage is done to all members of the community, most notably Southeast Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, whose struggles and economic realities are often rendered invisible." By Victoria Namkung

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/model-minority-myth-says-asians-are-successful-dangerous-rcna420

Being race conscious is not being racist. There are differences between races, the goal is racial equity. If we are colorblind and cannot see the differences between races, then we are colorblind racist.

Asians do not do better in society than whites. How many Asian presidents have been elected in the United States? How many senators, supreme court justices, and other positions of power?

Bogan

.@Dreamer ;  "By painting millions of Asian Americans with the broad brush of universal success, academics and activists say damage is done to all members of the community, most notably Southeast Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, whose struggles and economic realities are often rendered invisible." By Victoria Namkung

Claiming that a Pacific Islander is an Asian is like claiming that a Scandinavian is a Zulu.  

Dreamer wrote     Being race conscious is not being racist. There are differences between races, the goal is racial equity. If we are colorblind and cannot see the differences between races, then we are colorblind racist.

The constant cry of the anti racist camp is "there is only one race, the human race."   But of course leftists can see race.    Especially when it comes to asking governments to hand over copious amounts of taxpayer funds to their favourite dysfunctional minority, who's votes they wish to buy.

Dreamer wrote   Asians do not do better in society than whites.

That is patently false.    Asians are so over represented in the hardest university STEM courses that they are becoming almost Asian only.

Dreamer wrote      How many Asian presidents have been elected in the United States? How many senators, supreme court justices, and other positions of power?

Asian people seek money to get power, white peoples seek power to get money.

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

"Being race conscious is not being racist. There are differences between races, the goal is racial equity."

If your goal is racial equity that is indeed racist.  First off total equity is a dumb thing to strive for.  Additionally is you are looking for equity using race as the measuring stick that is indeed racist because your not ignoring race you are highlighting it while ignoring the other factors.

This racism is highlighted by the fact that you think Asian Americans are less successful because there have been no Asian American presidents or little in government.  If race doesn't matter than race representation in government doesn't matter its the ideas and equal opportunity that do.  Asian Americans are indeed very successful if you look average pay.

Race tensions will always be a part of normal life until we start ignoring it rather than highlighting it.

Swolliw

@Dreamer

Also ignoring that Asians worker harder than whites 

Isn't that being prejudiced and racist?

What authoritative, verified evidence did you use to make such a conclusion?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No ackowledging racial disparities is not racist.

@Swolliw

"But Asian Americans have to work harder just to keep up with whites."  Jeff Guo

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/29/the-asian-american-advantage-that-is-actually-an-illusion/

White people have white privilege over Asian people.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Total racial equity is not necessary.

@MichaelElpers

"If your goal is racial equity that is indeed racist." Elpers

How so?

Blacks get 50% less call backs on resumes. If for example they got only 2% less that would be an acceptable threshold.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Pacific Islanders are Asian.

@Bogan

Hi Bogan,

Pacific Islanders are both Asian and Indigenous peoples from various islands in the Pacific.

"The largest ethnic subgroups of Pacific Islander Americans are Native Hawaiians, Samoans, Chamorros, Fijians, Marshalleses, Tongans, and Tahitians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islander_Americans

Swolliw

@Dreamer

White people have white privilege over Asian people.

Completely wrong. You are doctoring evidence to produce a convenient (and thus wrong and racist) conclusion.

Your argument was that Asians work harder than whites yet the link you provided by the Washington Post clearly states "Asian Americans".

And your comment above is also prejudiced for the same reason, you are making a conclusion from a different set of facts.

Even within the context of the article your assumption here and the previous one (Asians work harder than whites) are wrong and contradicted by......."if they work hard and jump through the right hoops".

Do you see now where prejudice and racism stem from? Distorting, misinterpreting, and manipulating facts.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Aruging over semantics.

@Swolliw

Asians versus Asian Americans is just semantics. Is it really necessary to spell out Asian Americans every-time? I am not distorting nor manipulating any facts. Asian Americans also study longer than whites.

Here's an article that uses Asian students as opposed to Asian American students, which shows you are just nitpicking semantics.

"Ramey said, but it is still the case that Asian students spend more time studying: 15-plus hours per week in comparison with white students who spend a little over 10 hours per week"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110505103345.htm

If Asians have to work harder and study longer to get the same results as whites this shows there is systemic racism against Asians. That whites have unearned advantage and thus white privilege.

Bogan

@Swolliw ;   Isn't that being prejudiced and racist?

Yes.   I have already explained that to him.

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

Because in that instance your looking for equal outcome and only looking at a person's race,  ignoring that there are most likely a whole variety of other factors. 

Let's give a simple example. 10 people are hired based on who the company thinks is best and they make up 5 Asian, 3 white and 2 black.  You would say that is bad because they aren't equal, and change it to be equal based on race.  That is racist.

I would say as long as their is no obvious discrimination who gives a crap what race they are.

I would like to see what study shows blacks get 50% less call backs.  Id guarantee they aren't attempting to hold qualification, application, or location as controlled variables.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;    If Asians have to work harder and study longer to get the same results as whites this shows there is systemic racism against Asians. That whites have unearned advantage and thus white privilege.

They don't "get the same results as whites", the excel because they work harder and they are a bit smarter than whites, and they do better  financially than whites.  Here is a quote from your own link about that 

"figures show that Asians as a group are much more likely to have college degrees and also have much higher household incomes."

Got that?  "Much higher household incomes."       Where is your "white privilege" there?    What made western society rocket ahead of every other culture on planet earth and invent just about everything?    I will tell you, western society was largely a meritocracy.       Our culture valued brains.   Children from poor families who showed promise were encouraged with scholarships and burseries from governments to continue their studies because our society needed people with brains who worked hard.   Western society was the least handicapped with privilege compared to every other.    Many of our most revered inventers who created the modern world as it is today, came from humble beginnings.

Now, you want to turn that on it's head because you have a left wing socialist worldview that "everybody is equal" so if an identifiable group of people do poorly, you won't say it is because they are du-mb and lazy,  instead you look for excuses to explain what you so desperately don't want to think about.          Socialism failed in every one of the 48 countries who tried it.      It did not produce "equality" or "equity" it produced almost a feudal society where most of the population was equally poor, while the guys at the top and their middle manager oligarchs friends and relos got all the money and power, and all of the young girls that their tongues could handle.   

I asked you a question previously which you dodged.    If white society is so riven with systemic racism, how is it that those Democrat controlled cities in the USA which are 90% black, and who have black mayers sprouting the same nonsense tht you do, are not the new Askandas?     You know, the Hollywood fantasy world entirely populated by blacks without any white privelege at all, where it is a black utopia?     Why is every single black run country in the world an economic basket case holding out the begging bowl to the rest of the world?  (meaning the white, western world) .  No "systemic white privilege" in those countries, either.  

"Affirmative action" is not just racism, it is an attempt by the dumbest people in society to use their electoral clout toget positions that they neither earned not are qualified for.         The best thing about war is that it concentrates the mind wonderfully and makes people think straight.     During the time of Mao in China, China was full of revolutionary students who actually claimed that their political loyalty was more important than their exam results.      They murdered or humiliated their own professors who said otherwise, and paraded them around in dunces hats.    They bear uncanny resemblance to those ANTIFA id-iots who just happen to sprout the same nonsense you do about white society being systemically racist.      These were the guys who were Mao's little brown shirts and they even managed to get the Chinese Army to remove all badges of rank from their army uniforms, because they were so obsessed with politically correct "equality" and "equity".    When war broke out in 1979 between China and Vietnam, the Chinese fielded a leaderless rabble with nobody even knowing who the divisional, regimental, battalion, company or platoon NCO's or officers were.    And they got the sh-it shot out of them by the Vietnamese,     The Chinese Army quickly forgot about political correctness and they reinstituted badges of rank.  

Perhaps the west needs another war against a smart country like China?   We can use "affirmative action" to choose our generals, officers, and NCO's, not on their brains, but solely on the colour of their skins?  When we get the sh-it shot out of our armies, perhaps you will start thinking straight like the Chinese had to do?  

Swolliw

@Bogan

Yes.   I have already explained that to him.

You are being sexist and prejudiced....Dreamer is a her.

Just can't help it, can you?

Swolliw

@Dreamer

Asians versus Asian Americans is just semantics.

Nonsense, that comment is racist in itself and would be offensive to Asians and Asian Americans.

And to qualify that even further by coming up with the lazy excuse of leaving out one word just because of expedience is really scraping the bottom. Why not go one step further and just call them all Slits or Slopes.

It's just semantics and the words take a lot less time to type.

And the link you provided doesn't get you off the hook either; it only enhances my (correct) judgement that you are prejudiced and narrow-minded by trying to use the "this case is the same as that case" tactic. The article was specifically about school and college students????. 

Swolliw

@Dreamer

If Asians have to work harder and study longer to get the same results as whites this shows there is systemic racism against Asians. That whites have unearned advantage and thus white privilege.

That is a completely conditional (IF) and therefore, redundant argument.

Because you (should) know very well that even without the condition, the statement is horribly wrong and conspiring to incite racism. 

Where in the article you cited (or any other viable text) does it say that (American) Asians have to work harder?

Where in the article you cited (or any other viable text) does it say same results?

And, how could you possibly come to a conclusion that based on those premises being true (and they aren't) that there is systemic racism against Asians?

Which of course completely negates the completely absurd prejudiced notion of "unearned advantage thus white advantage".

Bogan

@Swolliw

Yaawn.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Why I am dispelling the model minority myth?

@Swolliw

The model minority myth not only harms Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, but is also used as a wedge between marginalized groups. 

"The pressure of supposedly inherent Asian excellence can also have mental health consequences; the myth has been correlated with everything from increased depression and anxiety to higher suicide rates and lower likelihood of seeking mental health services." Erin Blakemore

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/asian-american-model-minority-myth-masks-history-discrimination

White privilege is real.

"Whiteness being equated with being "normal" to Whites having more representation in the media. White privilege leads to White people being viewed as more honest and trustworthy than other groups, whether or not they have earned that trust." Nicki Lisa Cole, Ph.D.

https://www.thoughtco.com/white-privilege-definition-3026087

Just look at how the media whitewashes and produces the myth and stereotype that Asians are dishonest. Asians are often targeted by hate crimes.

Swolliw

@Bogan

Yaawn.

Unfortunately, that's the way it works in a proper debate. You won't get anywhere by using loose, street reasoning and casual assumptions. Dreamer is new and has the opportunity to learn from her mistakes but has shown an enthusiasm to progress.

Then you will get those who never will learn proper arguing skills simply because they don't want to and have a take it or leave it attitude. I'm not knocking it....that's the way of the jungle but what these people will never learn either is that they will never win an argument, or debate.

Bogan

@Swolliw ; T hen you will get those who never will learn proper arguing skills..... 

Oh, I agree.      And you are the perfect example of that     Instead of stringing disassociated sentences to together where questions are mixed up with statements, (which don't do much for whatever argument you are trying to get across) try writing a paragraph or two.      since your literary skills are appalling and you apparently don't even know what a paragraph is, I will give you some grammatical instruction in how to write so that people can understand you.

A paragraph can best be described as two or more sentences in which a particular line of thought is explained in full.       Got it now?     I sure you will get it eventually (with a bit of coaching}    Feel free to ask questions if you are still confused..    

just_sayin

@Dreamer said:

Blacks get 50% less call backs on resumes. If for example they got only 2% less that would be an acceptable threshold.

The flaw with the statistic is that it assumes that resume qualifications are equal.  Statistically, we know that is not the case.   It is ludicrous to think that major STEM companies and the Federal government do not want to hire qualified Black workers.  They most certainly do and Affirmative Action policies in place to increase the hiring of qualified Blacks and Hispanics.  Places like Facebook and Google are begging for qualified Black and Hispanic STEM candidates and give them preferential treatment.  Both companies have committed to doubling their Black and Hispanic representation within just a few years.

Yet, Only 1 percent of Facebook’s engineers and coders are black and 3 percent are Hispanic, a figure that hasn’t changed in four years despite diversity efforts.  Why do you think that is?  Is Facebook racist?  They have openly made public commitments to the goal of hiring more Blacks and Hispanics.  They have created departments of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion to help in this goal. So why are  liberal companies who want to say they increased the number of qualified Black and Hispanic workers, not hiring more Black and Hispanic workers in STEM positions?  

According to the National Center for Educational Statistics, in 2015-2016 a less than 9 percent of graduates with a STEM bachelor’s degree were black. Hispanic people made up about 12 percent.  Further, a majority of Black and Hispanic students were in the bottom half of their graduating degree program.  As the US Department of Education reports 84 percent of Black students lack proficiency in mathematics and 85 percent of Black students lack proficiency in reading skills.  STEM degree programs and STEM jobs are looking for strong mathematic skills.   Liberal companies like Google and Facebook aren't hiring as many Blacks and Hispanics for the STEM jobs because the don't want Black employees;  they desperately want them.  The issue is that the are having a hard time finding qualified candidates.

Race % of Jobs in Federal Government % of US workforce% that obtain college degree
Race % of Jobs in Federal Government % of US workforce % that obtain college degree White 67.8% 77% 35.2% Black or African American 17.2% 13% 25.2% Hispanic or Latino 7.5% 18% 18.3% Asian 5.3% 6% 56.3%

 So the Federal government's workforce is 17.2% black, even though only 13% of the population is Black, and since most government jobs require a college degree and only 25.2% of Blacks have obtained a college degree, they are overrepresented in Federal hiring.  It would be hard to argue that Affirmative Action has not benefited them and that they are being discriminated against in Federal hiring.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

You seem to have two mutually exclusive goals in mind. First, you want people of all (somewhat arbitrarily defined) groups to be equally represented everywhere. Second, you do now want anyone to have to work harder than anyone else to achieve the same outcome as them. Sorry, but you cannot have both at the same time, for different groups happen to have different outcomes caused by many different factors not involving any discrimination.

In my undergraduate math/physics class, there were ~20 guys and no girls. Reasons? While it is true that in the Russian education system a certain prejudice against women in STEM fields exists and is exercised by the admission committees, this prejudice hardly explains the 20:0 ratio in a single class - they were girls in other classes, after all, although small in numbers. The girls that were actually admitted generally underperformed relative to the guys when it comes to objective tests graded double-blindly, which is what you would expect given the ratio.
You can imagine an alternative scenario in which the equity standards had been enforced and my class had had 10 girls and 10 guys. You can imagine the outcome: the girls would perform extremely badly given what I described above, and most would drop after 1-2 semesters, bringing the ratio back to where it "should" be.
As you can see, you can have one or the other. You cannot have both.

Now, which one do you really prefer? Think about it. Do you want the next bridge over precarious mountains you drive over to be built by the best engineers in the world, or by the most "equitable" engineers in the world? Do you want it to be built by 20 best MIT graduates, or by 10 best MIT male graduates and 10 best MIT female graduates? Even if the latter happen to be quite average when it comes to the entire population of the MIT graduates?
Do you want the doctor operating on your son's cancer to be one of the best oncologists in the world, or do you want him to be a product of "equitable" appointment of racial groups to such positions? See, people tend to be set straight quickly with questions like this, when it is no longer a discussion of some abstract ideology, but when the life of someone they care about is at stake. 

Now, realize that absolutely every human activity has outcomes that matter to someone. What kind of students sit at the Ancient Rome History class in Sorbonne University might not matter to you as much as what kind of doctors work at the cancer clinic your son is staying in, but it does have an impact on the world. Perhaps, the idea of equal representation is complete nonsense and is to be discarded? Perhaps it is a result of misinterpretation of one's feelings and not of application of logic and reason? Perhaps, when looking at impoverished black neighborhoods in the US, you focus too much on the color of the residents' skin and not enough on the culture those neighborhoods espouse that prevents them from fixing themselves?

To the extent to which racial discrimination exists in the US or anywhere else, it must be remedied - culturally, not legally (legally, as explained above, any anti-discriminative action is going to result in a different form of discrimination that does not necessarily benefit either those it is supposed to help or anyone else). However, it is wrong to see every instance of statistical racial inequality as a consequence of racial discrimination. Are blacks on average much poorer than whites in the US? Yes. Does discrimination explain the entire discrepancy, or even a major part of it? Hardly. For one, no one can actually point out at explicit instances of discrimination: people just look at unequal outcomes and assume that they are a product of such discrimination, but whenever questions about the concrete instances of discrimination are asked, the answers suddenly become very fuzzy and involve weird concepts such as "implicit bias" - concepts funny in that they cannot be experimentally verified and have to be taken solely on faith.

Lastly, regarding "white privilege", careful before you lump in over 240 million people together. There is quite a bit of difference between Zuckerberg's daughters born in the US into one of the wealthiest families in the world, and daughters of a refugee from the Soviet Union of 80-s who showed up in the US with nothing but clothes on his back, no ability to speak or understand English, and no skills that are of value to anyone on a modern capitalist market. As an immigrant myself who came here literally with a small backpack and $500 to my name, it disgusts me to read about these allegedly horribly suffering Americans who, by any statistical measure imaginable, won a lottery with extremely low odds. Anyone who has the ability to go to an American school no matter where, even in the most backwards neighborhood in Detroit, is extremely lucky relative to the "privileged" whites who went to school in a remote Russian village.
And before you say that you are talking specifically about the US, bear in mind: many of us, those Russian kids, are among those people you are talking about now. My child(ren) will be exceptionally lucky to grow up in conditions of which I could not even dream back when I was a kid, and that is a product of my hard work, not of any "equity programs" that are all the rage nowadays. By the same token, any black person who managed to get out of Africa and raise their kids here has given them something they themselves could never hope to have. Please pay some respect to this fact before making sweeping statements about privileged and oppressed groups.

Bogan

Excellent posts by both Maycaesar and just-sayin.     I am glad that the quality of debate on this site is finally improving.    Look and learn, Mr Swallow.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Broke white people still have privilege.

@MayCaesar

Diverse groups often outperform homogeneous groups with higher total test scores.

"After one reads McIntosh's powerful essay, it's impossible to deny that being born with white skin in America affords people certain unearned privileges in life that people of other skin colors simply are not afforded."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255?utm_hp_ref=tw

Broke white people still have privilege. Comparing 3rd world to 1st world countries is a not as bad fallacy, also known as a fallacy of relative privation.

Bogan

Sonofason

Swolliw said:

Bogrun: People who do not tolerate bigotry are intolerant bigots.

Class: "What the???"......."You're a d**k"....."Did I hear that right?"........."That's not even funny"......"You're dead meat Bogrun"......"That's like real lame"....."Who gave birth to.........."

Teacher: Now class, settle down now.....quiet please..... You are not little kids any more, you are now in pre-school. Now Bogrun, whatever possessed you to say such a flippant, sil-ly piece of nonsense? Not only does it completely lack tact, it is non-sensical and completely devoid of any logic, substance or meaning. Well......... explain yourself !

Bogrun: Aw well, I said it because well, er well, fiddlesticks I just said it okay Miss.

Teacher: Bogrun, did you take your Ritalin this morning?

Bogrum: Derrrr I can't remember. Aw no, I must of forgotten he he he.

Teacher: And where are we going straight after pre-school today Bogrun?

Bogrun: Ummm, like er, to the social counsellor.....again?

Bigotry should be tolerated in schools.  However, disrupting a classroom should not be tolerated.  If bigotry is disrupting the classroom, it should not be tolerated.

Bogan

@Sonofason

One man's bigot is another man's teller of the truth.    All one party elitists of both the right and the left need do, is to label their political opponents opinions "bigotry" (or hate speech) to shut down debate.   The answer to supposed "bigotry" is freedom of speech.    All ideas should be tested in the cauldron of free speech so that an informed electorate can decide for themselves which ideas are right and which ideas are wrong.   In a democracy, there may be serious differences of opinion between what is right and wrong. But majority rules.  

just_sayin

Argument Topic: How do you explain to someone that claiming whites have "white privilege" is racist?

@Dreamer
Let me try and explain why your Huffington Post article is mistaken.  It has lots of racist white tropes in it.  It is discriminatory to say that just by knowing someone's ethnicity you can determine their privileges, values, morals, culpability, future actions, or fragility.  We know nothing about someone just by knowing their race.  To assume you know facts like their privileges by only knowing their ethnicity is a racist and bigoted notion.  

The Huffington Post article claims the following is a white privilege:

"If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area, which I can afford and in which I would want to live."

@Dreamer, surely you aren't this gullible.  Poor white people in Appalachia live in broken down trailers because they can't afford to move anywhere else. I grew up beside kids who lived in shelters with broken windows and didn't have a good pair of shoes. Do you think the white fairy will just wave zer wand and give them a new place to live?  It seems like the article's author has projected wealth privileges onto white people that aren't true for many. 

Another racist trope mentioned was:

"I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me."

I have walked the streets of Havana at night, Southeast DC, bad parts of LA, and Harlem at night.  I would rather do that any day, than walk past someone's land in many places in Appalachia, and I consider myself white.  I'd feel much more comfortable walking up on a group of twenty-something Black guys hanging out on dimly lit sketchy street corner in a poor urban neighborhood than I would walking up on a group of Appalachian Americans in the woods next to their moonshine still.  You can call me prejudice against white people if you want, but when I hear the banjo music start playing, I'm running. Who seriously think all white people will be pleasant or neutral to them?  Did the person who wrote this ever visit Appalachia?  Again, the author of the piece has wrongly projected wealth privilege onto white people.  I know we all look alike, but our bank accounts are very different and our experiences are different, no matter what the white privilege test claims.

Another fallacy pushed in the article was:

"I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed."

Does anyone seriously think a poor white kid could wonder around unaccompanied in a 5 and Dime, Piggly Wiggly, or Walmart and not be followed?  As that poor kid, I can assure you I was followed and watched.  They assumed I had no money cause I was dressed like a poor Appalachian kid.  Again, the article has projected its racist notions of white people on the situation.  It has again assumed a wealth privilege that is not afforded many whites in the US.  

We white people may look alike, but we really are different.  That's why treating people as individuals is so important - oh, wait, individualism was just declared white supremacy.  No joke it was.  And so was exercise.  And according to the Woke, so is math. And good grammar is also white supremacy.  

As my granny would say "He's about as confused as a fart in a fan factory."

Bogan

The primary factor in "white privilege" is that as identifiable demographic groups, white people and Asians, have "bell curves" of intelligence much higher than the dysfunctional races.    This fact is hardly something they should be ashamed of.   Sadly, to prosper in a western based democracy, you need to have a certain level of brains to get ahead.      There are still plenty of entry level jobs for people of low intelligence, but with the widespread acceptance of social welfare, the people with the lowest IQ make a rational decision to live off welfare instead of doing menial jobs.    Of course, there are plenty of really poor people from dysfunctional countries who see those jobs like picking fruit or cleaning offices a lot better than nothing.    And they clamour to gain entry to western lands to avail themselves of this opportunity, legally or illegally.     But sooner or later, the allure of welfare will infect those among them are similarly afflicted with low IQ, and who do not possess any drive to be upwardly mobile.    Here in Australia, it was known for some Asian immigrants to work two or more jobs to support their families, or run 24hour shops in rotation with other family members, while urging their children to study hard and get ahead.     That is smart thinking.    Dumb thinking is people who live on intergenerational welfare forever, don't value education, avoid all work other than drug trafficking, don't look after their kids, and never do anything to get ahead.  .

   I say this with sadness and I wish it were not so.    But most people from dysfunctional communities with intergenerational welfare dependency have low IQ and they even act that way.    Robbing banks, selling drugs, breaking into other people's homes, stealing cars, and mugging people on the streets, is not the way to achieve prosperity.  The smart ones from dysfunctional areas become upwardly mobile, or at least their smart children do.       Then along come Elmer Gantry type socialist politicians who appeal to the ego's of the du-mb and the lazy, and who tell them that their condition is not their fault.   It is all the fault of those who are smart and successful..    They are your oppressors, they say.    You are the oppressed.     Vote for us and we will be your protectors,      We will get you government jobs in every department solely based upon your skin colour.    We will say that the reason your ethnicity is underrepresented in universities is because the evil white oppressors gave you lousy schools, and they discriminate against you.    We will fix that.  We will assign racial quotas to counter your oppressors "white privilege."

And because they are du-mb, and because they want to blame everybody else other than themselves for their lack of achievement, they vote for the Democrats, who have a nice little earner peddling influence to rich people. 

The strangest thing is that young people like Dreamer actually believe it.    It just goes to show how political indoctrination of the young works a treat, as the Hitler Youth, the Soviet Komsomol, and the Chinese Red Guards can attest.  

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Diverse groups often outperform homogeneous groups with higher total test scores.

"After one reads McIntosh's powerful essay, it's impossible to deny that being born with white skin in America affords people certain unearned privileges in life that people of other skin colors simply are not afforded."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255?utm_hp_ref=tw

Broke white people still have privilege. Comparing 3rd world to 1st world countries is a not as bad fallacy, also known as a fallacy of relative privation.

This article appears to be a caricature of sorts. The points made here are absolutely ridiculous. These ones, for instance:

"I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed."
- Is that not true for a member of any sizable demographic at all? There actually is a race present in America members of which are harassed while shopping most of the time? Which race is that?

"I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented."
First, it is not a "privilege" to have your race widely represented; members of my race do not represent me in any way. I am as comfortable watching a Japanese movie with only Asian actors as I am watching a Russian movie with only White actors or a Mexican movie with only Latin actors.
Second, you can see people of all races widely represented on the American television. Many TV anchors nowadays are black, or Asian, or Latin. 

I am sorry, but this reminds me of DiAngelo's infamous book, where she came up with a bunch of anecdotes which most likely never took place in reality - and claimed that they are representative of everyone's experience. "I feel so uncomfortable dining with black people - apparently the same is true for all of you white folks as well!" Or of that condescending claim, now almost a meme, that black voters do not know how to use the Internet in order to learn that they need to carry an ID when voting. Authors of such articles are the biggest racists out there that have endless prejudices about people of other races and likely almost never interact with them (otherwise the prejudices would have been shattered).

I am waiting for anyone to point out a single actual and measurable privilege that I have. Not the "representation on TV" stuff (which is both false and irrelevant). More like something that I can actually use right now to better my life. In my 8+ years of living in America I have never used my race to acquire any benefit; if I am missing on something, I would very much like to learn of it.

Now, on the topic of school, I can give you an example of privileged treatment, but not in the direction you are looking. Did you know that there are over a hundred "Historically Black colleges" in the US? Those are colleges aimed specifically at providing education for black students, and while all students can be accepted into them, the target student body is blacks, and they have clear (and openly declared) biases when deciding who to accept. This is a thing, and no one bats an eye.
Now, imagine if tomorrow someone decides to open a "White college". What do you think will the public reaction be? This seems like a pretty clear privilege to me: what can be built specifically to the benefit of black students without any outrage, cannot be built to the benefit of white students.

Barnardot

@Dreamer
Thats a real piece of dog mess you posted about white privilege because the huff post stuff isn’t evidence because it’s just the opinion of some ignorant dufis and says nothing of fact as if huff post would do that because they are low rate dufises any way. Any way what your trying to do is make an argument when there isn’t one any way which is just being racist because that’s what racists do any way. You should be ashamed of your self for making up such a heap of baloney.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Kids are being asked to affirm racist beliefs in public schools

Curriculum that pushes CRT principles is popping up in many school districts.  As the Superintendent of Schools in the city of Detroit said:

“Our curriculum is deeply using critical race theory especially in social studies, but you’ll find it in English language arts and the other disciplines,” said Superintendent Nikolai Vitti during a school board meeting...

Detroit certainly isn't alone in openly teaching CRT in its curriculum.  Teachers have gone on record admitting that CRT has been taught in their classrooms.  Here are few other articles found in a quick search that show CRT is being taught in :

TEACHERS’ UNION TACITLY ADMITS CRT IS IN OKLAHOMA SCHOOLS

NEA social justice trainer admits critical race theory in K-12 despite claims by union boss Becky Pringle

Teachers’ Unions Vow to Defend Members in Critical Race Theory Fight

Major K-12 Teachers Union Endorses Teaching Critical Race Theory

CRT In Class: Local school district admits lessons on race, gender, and privilege were potentially biased

Yes, Virginia, critical race theory is in K-12 

At the heart of objections to CRT are specific racist beliefs, and no the objections are not about teaching slavery as some falsely claim.  Some of the specific racist beliefs that kids have been asked to affirm are (From Florida State bill):

1. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin are morally superior to members of another race, color, sex, or  national origin.
2. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
3. An individual’s moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, sex, or national origin.
4. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, sex, or national origin.
5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, sex, or national origin.
6. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
7. An individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or  any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin.
8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness,  neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, sex, or national origin to oppress members of another race, color, sex, or national origin.

Do you think any child should be asked to affirm any of these beliefs?

Pepsiguy

Argument Topic: No

hate speech is free speech. Hate crimes are just crimes that should be punished like any other. One man's bigot is another man's hero. The first amendment protects all opinions no matter how hateful.