Is Jewish a Race?

jack

Argument Topic: The myth of the Jewish race still persists, why?

Dee said:

let's hear the expert views of a trained biologist and geneticist

Hello hater..

Methinks thou dost protest too much..

excon, Jew

Dee

@jack

Hello hater.. 

Hello bigot.....

Methinks thou dost protest too much..

Yet you're the one who admits he's arguing daily for six years he's a Jew ............you even posted up several debates saying why would it matter? Then go on constantly explaining  why it does .......weird! 

Ex convict ,plastic jew 

So, what if Jews AREN'T  a race? Will the world end? Will it ruin your religion? Will you be afraid?

Ampersand

@Dee

The argument is not specific to Jews, it applies to every race of people on Earth.

And from a strictly biological point of view it’s correct, there is the human race and that’s it. You might want to try and look at “Black Africans” as a race, but then when you look at the genetics there is more genetic diversity between populations within Africa than between Africa and the rest of the world. Ethnic groups in Western Africa are more genetically similar to ethnic groups in Western Europe than to ethnic groups in Eastern Africa. Race is a genetic mirage.

So yeah, biologically race doesn’t exist.

So why are you wrong and why does race exist? If I line up Denzel Washington and Brad Pitt and ask 100 people to say which is there black person, why would they all say Denzel Washington?

Because race is a societal conception, not biological. In an ideal world we would be race blind and race wouldn’t exist because people wouldn’t make it exist, but as long as racism exists and people treat each other differently due to race it’s madness to pretend like it doesn’t exist.

It’s like saying that there’s no biological basis for Americans existing as a separate nationality. True but besides the point, because nationality is again a social/cultural convention.

Dee

@Ampersand

Yes the contentious point of this argument is the fact that American Jews on here say they are Jews through DNA and genetics when they are not nor ever were a "race". I'm Irish going back to the mists of time yet I can become a Jew like any other by converting .....

Conversion to Judaism (Hebrew: גיור, giyur) is the process by which non-Jews adopt the Jewish religion and become members of the Jewish ethnoreligious community. It thus resembles both conversion to other religions and naturalization.

You cannot become Irish , French , British by converting yet you can by claiming to be a Jew 

Ampersand

@Dee

You’re getting mixed up by Jewish being both a racial and religious categorisation. People can be any mixture of racially and religiously Jewish.

Also, it’s completely valid to view yourself as a race based on hereditary characteristics inherited genetically; it’s just understood that these characteristics are objective but the categories of race that they assign someone to are entirely subjective social constructs.

Dee

@Ampersand


You’re getting mixed up by Jewish being both a racial and religious categorisation. People can be any mixture of racially and religiously Jewish.

No I'm actually not , if one converts under the religious catergorisation one is entitled to citizenship,   regards racially it  doesn't necessarily come into it

We have already agreed they are not a race .....

Jewish learning.com 

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

You’re getting mixed up by Jewish being both a racial and religious categorisation.

No, you're getting mixed up. There is no Jewish race. The Semitic features traditionally used to identify a Jewish race are found with considerable more frequency among Muslim populations. 

Ampersand

@Dee

Now you’re getting confused on a third level, conflating not just race with religion but also now religion with citizenship of Israel.

Your last point is also self-evidently wrong as millions of people do easily identify as racially Jewish.

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

Why are you taking a position so self-evidently wrong? As discussed already race is not an objective fact but mutable and subjective social and cultural ethnocategories.

People can and do identify as racially Jewish. You can google it, look it up on Wikipedia, watch interviews of people talking about their Jewishness, etc. It’s simply a fact that they do and that in itself is all that is needed to establish Jewishness as a race.

Which begs the question on why you are so against acknowledging the racial dimensions to Jewishness?

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

Why are you taking a position so self-evidently wrong?

Because you are the one who is "self-evidently wrong." There's a biologist in the OP explicitly telling you that you're wrong.

As discussed already race is not an objective fact but mutable and subjective social and cultural ethnocategories.

Oh, I see. So your argument is that Jews are a race because Jews aren't a race? That's awesome.

People can and do identify as racially Jewish. You can google it, look it up on Wikipedia, watch interviews of people talking about their Jewishness, etc.

People can and do claim the world is flat. You can Google it, look it up on Wikipedia and watch interviews of people talking about it. If this qualifies a flat Earth as "self-evidently true" in your eyes, then there is something very seriously wrong with the way your mind operates.

It’s simply a fact that they do and that in itself is all that is needed to establish Jewishness as a race.

Oh, OK then. I identify as black African. Therefore I'm a black African. 

Even better, everybody in my house had fish and chips for dinner last night, we're all white and we all speak English. Therefore, I'm identifying us all as part of the fishywishy race and "that in itself is all that is needed to establish fishywishyness as a race."

Stop talking please. Your IQ is clearly under 90.

Ampersand

Because you are the one who is "self-evidently wrong." There's a biologist in the OP explicitly telling you that you're wrong.

Except I’m agreeing with him that’s there’s no biological basis for race.

Oh, I see. So your argument is that Jews are a race because Jews aren't a race? That's awesome.

No, ALL races are made up social construct and not an objective fact hence Jews are a race just like all the others.

People can and do claim the world is flat. You can Google it, look it up on Wikipedia and watch interviews of people talking about it. If this qualifies a flat Earth as "self-evidently true" in your eyes, then there is something very seriously wrong with the way your mind operates.

So are you trying to claim that race is an objective fact like the dimensions of the earth, rather than a social construct? Race is the latter, so by definition is defined by what society thinks.

Oh, OK then. I identify as black African. Therefore I'm a black African. 

Nope. Note me talking about how it’s a social construct and ‘they’ plural. One person is not society.

Stop talking please. Your IQ is quite clearly under 90.

If you’d demonstrated reading comprehension, I might take that personally!

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

Except I’m agreeing with him

Except no you're not:-

Nevertheless, many people find it difficult to accept the ideas that Judaism is not hereditary, but a religion, and that Jews who abandon the Jewish faith, whether they adopt another religion or none at all, are no longer Jews.

That sentence is explicitly clear. Judaism is a religion and those who abandon that religion are no longer Jews. That sentence directly contradicts what you said here:-

People can and do identify as racially Jewish... It’s simply a fact that they do and that in itself is all that is needed to establish Jewishness as a race.

He is saying Jewishness is not a race and you are saying it is. He's correct and you are incorrect. Very simple.

Dee

@Ampersand

Now you’re getting confused on a third level

The only thing is confusing is your constant denial of factually correct statements , you chop and change positions more than a cheap whore on a busy night

 conflating not just race with religion but also now religion with citizenship of Israel.

Your last point is also self-evidently wrong as millions of people do easily identify as racially Jewish.

Nonsense,  millions of people identify as Jews because they assert they are Jews, tell me this if millions of white Americans announce they are Zulu warriors they are to all intents and purposes Zulu warriors , that's what you're saying right?

Nomenclature

@Dee

Nonsense,  millions of people identify as Jews because they assert they are Jews, tell me this if millions of white Americans announce they are Zulu warriors they are to all intents and purposes Zulu warriors , that's what you're saying right?

The sheer ridiculousness of some of these people has me shaking my head in confusion. I don't know whether to argue with them or just burst out laughing.

Dee

@Nomenclature

The sheer ridiculousness of some of these people has me shaking my head in confusion. I don't know whether to argue with them or just burst out laughing.

I think we expect far too much from a nation that applauds and rewards  stupidity , I listened last night to Biden bleating on about how 'awesome' America is and how great its people are.

It seems he forgot to mention the obese burger chomping ignorant  loudmouths that come to Ireland every year who cannot go 5 minutes without telling bewildered passers by that " Hey we're Murican " as if the national uniform of baseball cap ,fifteen cameras , burger in one hand coke in the other didn't sort of give the game away 

Nomenclature

@Dee

 Hey we're Murican "

Amazing that they view it as some kind of achievement.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Amazing that they view it as some kind of achievement.

That's spot on, they think people will somehow be incredibly impressed by this revelation while the reverse is true 

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

And why does he say there is no biological Jewish race? Because he says there are NO biological races whatsoever, not just Jews. Just like me.

“As a trained geneticist, he became convinced that there are not and never were human races. In the last twenty years, an increasing number of anthropologists and biologists have reached the same conclusion. They argue that there is no way to genetically characterize race, because no human population has ever been isolated long enough from other populations to avoid "crossbreeding."

The difference is that I, not being a biologist, take a wider view and point out that race is a sociological phenomenon and not biological.

Dee

@Ampersand

The difference is that I, not being a biologist, take a wider view and point out that race is a sociological phenomenon and not biological.

Right got that so tell me how from a ''sociological ' perspective one becomes a Jew by merely asserting it? 

As I said from in my first statement .......

You cannot become Irish , French , British by converting yet you can by claiming to be a Jew 

So your contention would seem to be that basically you're anything you wish to be by merely asserting such , right? 

All you're doing is going around in circles by presenting counters to arguments I'm not making 

The Israeli government also clearly state .....

A Jew is one who practices the Jewish religion, Judaism. This includes both converts those who have been members of the Jewish religion since birth 

According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism 

Luigi7255

@Ampersand

I believe @Dee and @Nomenclature are stating a little of the obvious and are a tiny bit off track. The main point of contention within these few days on DI was if being Jewish was being part of a certain ethnicity, not a race. As Amp has stated, race is more of a social factor rather than a biological one, and being Jewish in general obviously is not part of a race.

And by the way, Dee and Nomen, I think it's obvious that I agree with you two.

Dee

@Luigi7255

Hi Luigi ,

Yes I think that Nom and myself agree with you but are coming at the problem with a slightly different but valid and important point most keep avoiding.

The point myself and Nom consistently make is that being Jewish seems to fall under a classification that doesn't apply to anyone else.

Nom made this statement which I'm in total agreement with ...... Oh, OK then. I identify as black African. Therefore I'm a black African.

Even better, everybody in my house had fish and chips for dinner last night, we're all white and we all speak English. Therefore, I'm identifying us all as part of the fishywishy race and "that in itself is all that is needed to establish fishywishyness as a race."

I made the comments below .....

Millions of people identify as Jews because they assert they are Jews, tell me this if millions of white Americans announce they are Zulu warriors they are to all intents and purposes Zulu warriors , that's what people seem to be saying right?

I'm also asking Amp to explain ......tell me how from a ''sociological ' perspective one becomes a Jew by merely asserting it? As that is what his revised claim is saying.

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

And why does he say there is no biological Jewish race? Because he says there are NO biological races whatsoever, not just Jews. Just like me.

Just stop. His argument isn't a generic attack on the concept of race. He's specifically saying that Jewishness isn't a race. He takes great effort to explain his own Jewish heritage and then specifically disqualifies Jewishness as a race. You are purposefully distorting his argument -- or at best only acknowledging certain parts of it -- in order to make it more compatible with your own beliefs, which is a textbook example of intellectual dishonesty. The author literally states his intention in his very first sentence:-

More than sixty years after the death of Hitler, the defeat of Nazism, and the horrors of the Holocaust, the concept of a Jewish race is still alive and well in the minds of too many. This book is an attempt to destroy such a concept from both a biological and historical point of view.

So not just biologically, but also historically. He is stating as a matter of fact that there is no such thing as a Jewish race. 

You, on the other hand, are claiming that there is such thing as a Jewish race, and that the only qualification needed for a Jewish race is for someone to claim such a race exists. That is self-evidently absurd, for reasons which have been meticulously explained to you and which you have simply ignored. It is a journey which leads us to a destination of absolute nonsense where, to use one of Dee's examples, white Americans are able to make a legitimate claim of being Zulus, or where anybody can invent a new race for any reason they like, such as the pink marshmallow race, or the fishywishy race.

Put simply, you are being completely and entirely irrational, and you're trying to obfuscate that fact behind circular reasoning, semantic gymnastics and the gross distortion of the source material.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Great piece Nom , it's truly staggering the way these people cannot read a piece  which clearly states the argument the author is making and then totally distort it.

I think Amp realised he had backed himself into a corner so decided as you correctly put it to resort to intellectual dishonesty.

Nomenclature

@Dee

it's truly staggering the way these people cannot read a piece  which clearly states the argument the author is making 

Yes, I think there's a natural tendency in a lot of people to twist all new forms of information around what they believe already. Religious people are the classic example, but unfortunately it isn't only confined to religion. The same principle also applies when someone has been indoctrinated into any particular type of political ideology.

I think Amp realised he had backed himself into a corner so decided as you correctly put it to resort to intellectual dishonesty.

His entire argument is an exercise in circular reasoning: this concept (i.e. race) isn't objectively real, but I can nevertheless apply it objectively to Jews.

Dee

@Nomenclature

Hi Nom , I just posted up a whole piece on "Who is a Jew " and it clearly confirms what we have been saying all along .....

A Jew is one who practices the Jewish religion, Judaism. This includes both converts those who have been members of the Jewish religion since birth 

According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism 

Ampersand

Firstly, let’s just clarify - are the people asserting that Jewish isn’t a race also asserting that no race exists? The argument made in the OP is based off a biologist who makes the argument that there is no basis for ANY race whatsoever - so are you actually accepting this argument or just cherrypicking the parts of it you like despite them both being based on the same underlying logic?

Secondly there appears to be confusion about how identity works here. Anyone can claim to be anything. For objective facts e.g. “I am 6ft tall” these can simply be assessed empirically. For subjective claims e.g. “I am a gamer”, anyone can make them but the question of whether society as a whole accepts it is the real question and this is both subjective and subject to change over time and through cultures. Someone who played computer games for half an hour a week in the 80’s might have been considered a gamer at a time when playing video games was rare, but nowadays half an hour on candy crush a week wouldn’t make most people be considered a gamer. Individuals within society will also have different views that may clash with what is generally accepted.

People can claim to be racially Jewish because Jewish is generally recognised by society as a racial group by society as a whole. That doesn’t mean anyone can claim to be Jewish and demand for it to be accepted in the same way someone can’t say they are a gamer and have it be accepted by society if they don’t actually play any games.

Thirdly I’m talking in generalities for everything and there will be no absolutes, for instance there won’t be 100% agreement in society over exactly what constitutes any racial identity - just tendencies.

In summary:

1) What constitutes a race and whether people are generally considered to fall within a racial category is entirely socially constructed.
2) No-one cares what you think on the matter and because this is just your opinion and it doesn’t impact the overall social construct of how race is decided, it’s entirely irrelevant.

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

Have you tried actually reading the OP?

As a trained geneticist, he became convinced that there are not and never were human races. In the last twenty years, an increasing number of anthropologists and biologists have reached the same conclusion. They argue that there is no way to genetically characterize race, because no human population has ever been isolated long enough from other populations to avoid "crossbreeding."

It specifically says there are NO HUMAN RACES. Not just no Jewish Races, but no separate human races at all.

This highlights what I was saying about the lack of reading comprehension being displayed.

Now that you are choosing to pick a fight over this portion of it though where you are clearly wrong, I’ll ask: 

1) Do you accept this claim that there are no races at all besides the human race?
2) If not, then as the same evidence underpins both the claim do you now also recant your view that Jews cannot represent a race?

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

Firstly, let’s just clarify - are the people asserting that Jewish isn’t a race also asserting that no race exists? 

What difference do you think it makes? You've read the same passage that I have and the author is explicitly clear that Jewishness is a religion, not something passed down like an heirloom. The paragraph at the bottom "asserting that no race exists" looks like someone else's synopsis of the author's work. 

Have you tried actually reading the OP?

Have you tried taking a basic English lesson and learning that people don't refer to themselves in the third person? The sentence you've quoted was clearly not written by the author. It's likely from a critic or a book reviewer. 

People can claim to be racially Jewish because Jewish is generally recognised by society as a racial group by society as a whole.

What a laughable piece of sophism. We're right back to, "I agree that Jews are not a race, but they are a race because they are recognised by society as a race." Firstly, the OP proves the second half of your self-contradictory claim is false, because nobody in society who has any idea what they are talking about recognises Jews as a race. Secondly, if something is false, it doesn't become true just because it's popular. If society as a whole -- as it once did -- "recognises" that the Sun orbits the Earth, that doesn't mean we should continue to believe it after it is shown to be false. Just what absolutely insane nonsense are you writing?

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

What difference do you think it makes? You've read the same passage that I have and the author is explicitly clear that Jewishness is a religion, not something passed down like an heirloom. The paragraph at the bottom "asserting that no race exists" looks like someone else's synopsis of the author's work. 

The entire thing is a synopsis. You don’t think a single paragraph of text is a book do you?

You are going “See, look at what this biologist concluded!!” The only problem is to accept the conclusion you also have to accept the premise of what lead to that conclusion, namely that there are no races from an objective genetic standpoint.

If you reject their reasoning, you are also rejecting any rationale for the conclusion. You can’t have it both ways, hence it being very relevant if you accept the reasoning and agree that there are no races whatsoever.

Have you tried taking a basic English lesson and learning that people don't refer to themselves in the third person? The sentence you've quoted was clearly not written by the author. It's likely from a critic or a book reviewer. 

Actually book blurbs about the author, abstracts of scientific research, etc are usually written by the authors in the third person.

For instance here’s a style guide for writing scientific abstracts (summaries)

https://www.scientific-editing.info/blog/writing-an-abstract-in-apa-format/

Which states: Avoid the use of the first person as well as abbreviations: when writing the abstract, do not use “we” or “I.” Instead, you can use third-person pronouns. Also, the abstract should be written in active verbs rather than passive verbs. Abbreviations and acronyms should not appear in your abstract, even if they appear in your essay.

What a laughable piece of sophism. We're right back to, "I agree that Jews are not a race, but they are a race because they are recognised by society as a race." Firstly, the OP proves the second half of your self-contradictory claim is false, because nobody in society who has any idea what they are talking about recognises Jews as a race. Secondly, if something is false, it doesn't become true just because it's popular. If society as a whole -- as it once did -- "recognises" that the Sun orbits the Earth, that doesn't mean we should continue to believe it after it is shown to be false. Just what absolutely insane nonsense are you writing?

Here is my argument simplified for you.

1) Race is a social construct, not a biological reality.

2) Jews are widely perceived as being an ethnic group or race as well as a religion.

3) The validity of social constructs is based entirely on their social acceptance.

Therefore: Jews are a race.

Which of the three premise do you reject?

Please note that a minority of people disagreeing with the basis for a social construct does not nullify it. There may be anarchists or lost tribes in the rain forest who reject or have never understood the basis of money, but money is still something that has been socially constructed and can still be seen to effect the real world. 

Also, and this should be very obvious but apparently today is the day for me to point out the very obvious, orbital mechanics is not a social construct. Do you know what a social construct is? Only it’s central to my argument but you’re responding to me like you don’t understand what I’m saying yet are vehemently disagreeing anyway just because you don’t support the conclusion.

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

The entire thing is a synopsis. You don’t think a single paragraph of text is a book do you?

You seem to think a single sentence constitutes a book, because the only sentence you're prepared to acknowledge in the entire text is the one which claims there are no races.

You are going “See, look at what this biologist concluded!!” The only problem is to accept the conclusion you also have to accept the premise of what lead to that conclusion,

No, the problem is that you are inventing your own premise, which involves you ignoring 99 percent of the text, while assuming the one single sentence you're prepared to acknowledge the existence of, is the sole reason why Jews aren't a race. You are inventing your own premise, despite the fact that the rest of the text contradicts that premise. For example: This book is an attempt to destroy such a concept from both a biological and historical point of view. 

If you reject their reasoning, you are also rejecting any rationale for the conclusion.

I'm not rejecting their reasoning. I'm rejecting your reasoning, because it directly contradicts the text.

Actually book blurbs about the author, abstracts of scientific research, etc are usually written by the authors in the third person.

Stop talking complete rubbish. You're trying to arbitrarily merge two different concepts so you can pretend evidencing one evidences the other.

For instance here’s a style guide for writing scientific abstracts (summaries)
https://www.scientific-editing.info/blog/writing-an-abstract-in-apa-format/

An abstract is a summary of a peer-reviewed scientific study you blathering nincompoop, and it refers to using terms like "the authors found", or "it was determined" instead of "I" or "we". It does not mean using the word "he" when you're talking about yourself. Jesus Christ, you haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about, do you? You've linked a specific style guide for the abstract section of study papers submitted to the American Psychological Association, when the subject actually under discussion is the synopsis of a book about how Jewishness is not a race.

You are just so persistently dumb it's irritating reading your posts.

1) Race is a social construct, not a biological reality.
2) Jews are widely perceived as being an ethnic group or race as well as a religion.
3) The validity of social constructs is based entirely on their social acceptance

You keep continuously going around in a circle. The OP proves that there is not social acceptance of the idea that Jews are a race. I do not accept that Jews are a race. Dee does not not accept that Jews are a race. Luigi does not accept that Jews are a race. Alain Couros does not accept that Jews are a race. Shlomo Sand does not accept that Jews are a race. David Silverman does not accept that Jews are a race. The left wing Jewish Newspaper Haaretz does not accept that Jews are a race. You keep relentlessly pursuing a premise which is not only false, but which is disproved by the very argument you are responding to. If it were socially accepted that Jews are a race then we would not be having this conversation in the first place! Your "argument", simplified or not, is one big fat contradiction of itself.

jack

Nomenclature said:

If it were socially accepted that Jews are a race then we would not be having this conversation in the first place!

Hello hater:

Nahhh.  The ONLY people who give a sh*t about whether I'm a Jew or not, are RABID antisemites like yourself.  Du*de!  Nobody else cares!

excon

Nomenclature

@jack

The ONLY people who give a sh*t about whether I'm a Jew or not

Nobody is talking to you, clown. Stop hijacking debates and demanding to be the centre of attention like a spoiled three year old brat.

Nomenclature

@jack

are RABID antisemites like yourself.  Du*de!  Nobody else cares!

And if you didn't care, you wouldn't launch disgusting smear campaigns against everybody who points out that you're not Jewish. I have absolutely no problem with Jews, as you well know. It's FAKE Jews I have a problem with. Parasites who use the suffering of other people to benefit themselves. That's what I have a problem with. 

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

You seem to think a single sentence constitutes a book, because the only sentence you're prepared to acknowledge in the entire text is the one which claims there are no races.

Lol that you think “So what if I’m ignoring things that destroy my argument, I’ll just claim you are too”. Tu quoque is not a good argument and you’ve just damned yourself.

For my part, I can accept the whole thing. I can understand the initial statement in the first paragraph of there being no Jewishness absent religion in the context of the statement in the latter paragraph that there are no races at all from this perspective. Unlike you I’m not taking the childish position of just ignoring the parts of the text that I don’t like.

No, the problem is that you are inventing your own premise, which involves you ignoring 99 percent of the text, while assuming the one single sentence you're prepared to acknowledge the existence of, is the sole reason why Jews aren't a race. You are inventing your own premise, despite the fact that the rest of the text contradicts that premise. For example: This book is an attempt to destroy such a concept from both a biological and historical point of view. 

And specifically does so from a POV that, and I will quote, “there are not and never were human races”. 

Like I said, I can handle that and you can’t accept it.

I'm not rejecting their reasoning. I'm rejecting your reasoning, because it directly contradicts the text.

Then feel free to name where it contradicts the text instead of just whining.

An abstract is a summary of a peer-reviewed scientific study you blathering nincompoop, and it refers to using terms like "the authors found", or "it was determined" instead of "I" or "we". It does not mean using the word "he" when you're talking about yourself. Jesus Christ, you haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about, do you? You've also linked a specific style guide for papers submitted to the American Psychological Association, not a general template for science.

Wow, you being wrong and needing to move the goalposts really triggers you. 

You stated people don’t write about themselves in the third person, now are acting upset because you’ve had to admit that they do, though of course you’re now trying to argue not in the third person in this specific way.

Let me quote a random example of you being wrong even with your own new goalposts though:

“In HOW TO BE AN ANTIRACIST Ibram X. Kendi, one of the world's most influential scholars on racism, demolishes the idea of a post-racial society, punctures the myths and taboos that cloud our understanding of racism and presents a radically new approach to tackling it.

He shows how everyone is, at times, complicit in maintaining the structure of racism though we rarely realise it, and gives us the tools to identify and change those behaviours.

Uncompromising but essential, HOW TO BE AN ANTIRACIST sparked a new conversation about being antiracist around the world, showing that until we become part of the solution, we can only be part of the problem.“

That’s not a review of HOW TO BE AN ANTI-RACIST or a third party synopsis, it’s the book’s introductory blurb. Writing in the third person, even about yourself, is standard practice for academic related fiction introductions and author bios.

But please do go on, I can’t wait to hear the next absurd explanation for how the first paragraph of a three paragraph synopsis is trustworthy but the third paragraph isn’t because of the point of view it was written in.

The OP proves that there is not social acceptance of the idea that Jews are a race.

Feel free to quote where this is supposedly proven and I’ll show you how you’re wrong.

I do not accept that Jews are a race. Dee does not not accept that Jews are a race. Alain Couros does not accept that Jews are a race. Shlomo Sand does not accept that Jews are a race.

That’s precious. And why do you think these opinions matter?

You keep relentlessly pursuing a premise which is not only false, but which is disproved by the very argument you are responding to. If it were socially accepted that Jews are a race we would not be having this conversation in the first place! 

I’ve already explained that social constructs don’t require buy in from everyone. That there are some people who will disagree with and dispute the construct doesn’t impact any point in my argument.

I realise it can be upsetting that your opinion is unimportant, but in the grand scheme of things that’s the case.

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

Lol that you think “So what if I’m ignoring things that destroy my argument, I’ll just claim you are too”.

Are you bona fide delusional? The man wrote a book explaining why Jews are not genetically or historically a race and you responded by claiming you agreed with him, then followed up by arguing that Jews are a race because there are no races. You have spent the last four hours writing the largest legacy of self-contradictory trash I have ever read in my entire natural life, and you are presently trying to pretend that the only argument the author made about why Jews are not a race is that there are no races, despite the fact that the actual text in the OP clearly and explicitly proves that to be a false claim.

You're an intellectually dishonest, fallacious imbecile and that's simply a matter of fact.

there are no races at all from this perspective. Unlike you I’m not taking the childish position of just ignoring the parts of the text that I don’t like.

And sad little sophist that you are, you're accusing me of exactly what you are guilty of, in the hope you can confuse and obfuscate the factual reality of this conversation. At least four times I have quoted the part of the text where the author states, in no uncertain terms, that he debunks the idea of a Jewish race historically. Not genetically. Not generically. Historically. You continue to ignore that word and you continue to pretend the only argument the author has made is that, genetically, there are no races. It's pathetic. How you can literally ignore the entire text with the exception of a single sentence and then accuse me of doing just that is mind-boggling to me. You need professional help, not a debate site.

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

Feel free to quote where this is supposedly proven and I’ll show you how you’re wrong.

Go to your doctor and get some help.

Judge rules that Judaism is not a race 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/judge-rules-judaism-not-race-jewish-people-can-be-targeted-ncna896806

Dee

@Ampersand


You're just repeating yourself and totally missing the point


A Jew is one who practices the Jewish religion, Judaism. This includes both converts those who have been members of the Jewish religion since birth 

According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism 

Dee

@jack

Hello hater:


Hello bigot 

Nahhh.  The ONLY people who give a sh*t about whether I'm a Jew or not, are RABID antisemites like yourself.

So you deem yourself an Antisemite ? Interesting as you care so much you never  stop bleating about it.


  Du*de! 

Mate ! 

 Nobody else cares!

You seem to care a lot 

jack

Nomenclature said:

Judge rules that Judaism is not a race

Hello hater:

Over the years, I've wondered WHY you're so obsessed with me and my ethnicity...  And, I'm wondering now WHY you are SOO obsessed with your Jews are NOT a race, argument...  It just sounds nuts...  UNLESS, you think something HORRIBLE will happen to you IF, in fact I'm Jewish and the Jews ARE a race..

MOST of the people in the world don't care if there are Jews or if there aren't..   But, you care SOOOO much, that you'd invest 6 years of your life screaming your head off that I'm not a Jew.   It's nuts.  That's NOT the behavior of an ordinary adult..  It's the behavior of somebody who's scared to death..

Come on..  You can admit it..  You're FRIGHTENED of something..

excon

Ampersand

@Nomenclature

And if you read through the article you’ll see that it uses a source (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/07/20/louisiana-judge-says-jews-are-a-race-are-protected-by-anti-racial-discrimination-laws/ ) which has the headline about the same event of:

Louisiana judge says Jews are a race and protected by anti-racial-discrimination laws

So two problems:

1) You still lack reading comprehension and are basing your opinion off of headlines without actually reading and understanding the article. You’ll note it says Judaism (the religion) is not a race, not that Jews aren’t a racial group. In fact your own article talks about how the judge found that Jews ARE eligible for racial protection: 

So was he then being discriminated against on racial grounds, based on his heritage?

Hornsby concluded that he was, and that racial discrimination can include Jewish people.

You’ll also note that the article also accepts my point about there not actually being any fundamentally true racial groups and then all being social constructs.

Well done shooting your self in the foot!

2) It’s pointless as we’re talking about social constructs, not legal categories, so it would have had no bearing on the point anyway.

Ampersand

@Dee

Why would I use those definitions over the one that I have explained and am
supporting?

Dee

@Ampersand


Why would I use those definitions over the one that I have explained and am
supporting?

Because I'm stating what and who the state of Israel claims are Jews ,  your fellow Americans who are rabidly arguing that one who practices the Jewish religion is not a Jew but a follower of the Judaic faith , this is according to the state of Israel incorrect , it's seems you're embracing the same 'philosophy '



A Jew is one who practices the Jewish religion, Judaism. This includes both converts those who have been members of the Jewish religion since birth 

According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism 

Ampersand

@Dee

Firstly, Jew isn’t defined in any Knesset legislation. The religious courts have ruled on it, but their authority is limited and their rulings wouldn’t necessarily meet your description and they don’t consistently recognise modern liberal Judaism as Judaism. It’s only in the last couple of years that conversions to Reform and Conservative Judaism as valid for the Law of Return.

Secondly, why would I go by their definition rather than any other?

Dee

@Ampersand




Firstly, Jew isn’t defined in any Knesset legislation. 

I know because that is not what Knesset legislation is about 

Passed on December 13, 1980, by the Ninth Knesset. The intention of the law is to establish the status of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and secure its integrity and unity. It determines that Jerusalem is the seat of the President of the State, the Knesset, the Government and the Supreme Court.

The religious courts have ruled on it, but their authority is limited and their rulings wouldn’t necessarily meet your description and they don’t consistently recognise modern liberal Judaism as Judaism. It’s only in the last couple of years that conversions to Reform and Conservative Judaism as valid for the Law of Return.

"Last couple of years " Nonsense ......

How did the Israeli Supreme Court define who is considered a Jew in regard to the law of return in the Rufeisen decision 1962?

In an administrative order used solely for their purposes, the Authorities defined a Jew as "any person who professes to be one and [who] has not embraced any other religion."

Secondly, why would I go by their definition rather than any other?

I'm not asking you to go by any definition , I keep telling you what this topic is about , you keep ignoring yet keep posting your opinion up which has nothing to do with what Israeli courts and law have decided.

If you disagree with how Israelis define a Jew I suggest you get the next available flight there and explain your concerns and your preferred options which I think you're still very unsure of.

Why is it Americans consistently argue about governments in foreign countries  decide  regards law and try to re-interpret that countries policies into something that they find more palatable to their skewed American perspective on such?

Nomenclature

@Ampersand

And if you read through the article you’ll see that it uses a source (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/07/20/louisiana-judge-says-jews-are-a-race-are-protected-by-anti-racial-discrimination-laws/ ) which has the headline about the same event of

Louisiana judge says Jews are a race and protected by anti-racial-discrimination laws

You THOROUGHLY DISHONEST CLOWN. The article you linked was written PRIOR to the judge making a ruling on the case. My article was written AFTER the ruling was made. Counsel had initially moved for the case to be dismissed, and the judge denied that request, prompting the WP's misguided headline. Your own article makes that abundantly clear, so there is absolutely no excuse for pretending otherwise, other than INTENTIONAL DISHONESTY on your part:-

A lawyer for Louisiana College had asked that the case be dismissed, arguing Bonadona’s claim that his Jewish ancestry counts as race is implausible and has no basis in “law or jurisprudence.” Hornsby declined that request July 13, meaning the suit will likely move forward — depositions are slated to begin next week.

So two problems:

1) You still lack reading comprehension

The sheer IRONY of your ridiculous, self-contradictory Freudian projection is next level absurd. Everything you are guilty of you are trying to spin around back on me. Go and see a doctor you absolutely ABSURD clown, and tell him you suffer from an excruciatingly delusional type of dishonesty. 

Nomenclature

@Dee

You're wasting your time with this lunatic. He's intentionally dishonest, as my last post illustrates, and he's simply trying to warp the facts around what he wants to believe.

Barnardot

@Nomenclature @Dee ;You're wasting your time with this lunatic. He's intentionally dishonest

Were you looking in the mirror when you copy and pasted this baloney coming from the girlie boy Adolf who insylts and never ever says a thing but says what others say instead.

For example: There's a biologist in the OP explicitly telling you that you're wrong.
Oh, I see. So your argument is that Jews are a race because Jews aren't a race?
 You can Google it, look it up on Wikipedia and watch interviews of people talking about it.
People can and do claim the world is flat. 
Stop talking please. Your IQ is clearly under 90.
If you’d demonstrated reading comprehension,
He is saying Jewishness is not a race and you are saying it is.
I don't know whether to argue with them or just burst out laughing.
Just stop.
More than sixty years after the death of Hitler........quote
He is stating as a matter of fact 
for reasons which have been meticulously explained to you and which you have simply ignored. 
Have you tried taking a basic English lesson 
Just what absolutely insane nonsense are you writing?
Stop talking complete rubbish.
You are just so persistently dumb it's irritating reading your posts.
Nobody is talking to you, clown. 
Are you bona fide delusional? 
 four hours writing the largest legacy of self-contradictory trash I have ever read in my entire natural life
You're an intellectually dishonest, fallacious imbecile and that's simply a matter of fact.
And sad little sophist that you are
You need professional help,
Go to your doctor and get some help.
You THOROUGHLY DISHONEST CLOWN. 
self-contradictory Freudian projection is next level absurd
Go and see a doctor you absolutely ABSURD clown, and tell him you suffer from an excruciatingly delusional type of dishonesty. 

And all the rest of what you wrote is just mirroring exactly what your doing and that is just this page.

And this all comes from some one he says that he is here to debate and not ignore questions.

Man, all this dog mess baloney shows every one one thing.

Nomenclature

@Barnardot

Were you looking in the mirror when you copy and pasted this baloney coming from the girlie boy Adolf who insylts and never ever says a thing but says what others say instead.

I don't possess a high tolerance level for dishonest people. For example, when you run through long sections of text and pick out all the insults -- and only the insults -- then paste them together to manufacture a false representation of reality, that's a form of intellectual dishonesty. If I were to do the same thing to you, I'd find a long list of "girlie boy", "Adolf" and "extremist" insults, so your hypocrisy is shocking. 

The poster I replied to was making dishonest arguments, so that's why I called him a clown. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Judaism is a nation, ethnicity, religion, and culture.

I'm still struggling to differentiate race and ethnicity. If I understand correctly ethnicity is broader and includes race.

"Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation,[11][55][12][56][57][58] an ethnicity,[10] a religion, and a culture,[59][60][61] making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

Yes, Judaism is a race.

To better understand Judaism and how somebody can accidentally be anti-Semitic. Let's take the animal rights point of view. Some animal rights activists are against very specific parts of kosher. Yet, if worded incorrectly this can be seen as attack on Jewish food culture and therefore anti-Semitic. 

There are haters out there who have explicit bias towards Jews and are overtly anti-Semitic. Yet, the majority of anti-Antisemitism comes from well meaning people who are just plain old ignorant via implicit bias. 

Nomenclature

@Dreamer

Yes, Judaism is a race.

No, it is not. Your source is not credible concerning the issue you are using it for. See:-

Wikipedia editing courses launched by Zionist groups

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/18/wikipedia-editing-zionist-groups

The Right's Latest Weapon: 'Zionist Editing' on Wikipedia

https://www.haaretz.com/2010-08-18/ty-article/the-rights-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia/0000017f-e69d-d97e-a37f-f7fdd4230000

You are quite an annoying person to argue against, because you never think critically about anything, or use reason to justify your beliefs. You simply resort to a perpetual cycle of appeals to authority. That wouldn't even be so bad if you at least bothered to check how credible your sources were, and whether there are perhaps better qualified sources with different views. But you never do that. You simply Google something, or read it in a book, and assume therefore what you are reading must be 100 percent correct and there is no possibility the information you obtained might be wrong, or even debatable.