What are the economic effects of Undocumented Citizens?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Undocumented citizens overall help the economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

The main benefit is they increase consumption. If you are selling a product or service somebody has to buy or you won't make any money. They pay their taxes unlike Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffet. Not only that but they often do the menial labor that nobody else wants.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/

Do you really want to work on a farm or be a maid? Milk prices would spike by 90% if we got rid of all immigrant labor.

Recap, they increase consumption and are somebody to sell to, pay their taxes, and perform the work you don't want keeping prices low increasing buying power. Sounds like a win-win.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: The word 'undocumented' is inadequate to describe 'illegal' felony behavior

The term undocumented citizen should not be used.  First, they are not true 'citizens' if they entered unlawfully.  They are technically invaders.  Further, undocumented makes it sound like there was some filing mix up.  No, most adults who entered the country unlawfully did so intentionally.  The terms unlawful entrant or illegal immigrant are more appropriate, but are not used by the left because they do not want the focus on their illegal activity.  

Often supporters of unlawful entry into the US will say that illegal entrants are less likely to commit crimes.  This is an obvious lie.  The studies they use include legal immigrants.  The interests of legal immigrants is very different than illegal ones.  The fact is

Most illegal aliens routinely commit felonies

The vast majority of illegal aliens use fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers.  They possess fake drivers’ licenses, phony “green cards,” fraudulent birth certificates and any other documents that U.S. citizens and legal residents have.  In addition, they falsify I-9 forms under penalty of perjury. Thus, the average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.

This criminal activity is routinely swept under the rug in order to protect the myth of the law abiding illegal alien. However, when pushed, even the strongest supporters of illegal aliens are forced to acknowledge that the vast majority of illegal aliens commit multiple felonies. In fact, the Social Security Administration and New York Times report that approximately 75 percent of illegal aliens have fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers which is a felony. The ACLU accepts this figure and uses it to show that illegal aliens pay payroll taxes.

Furthermore, the Los Angeles Times reports that up to 8 million of 11.1 million (72 percent) illegal aliens commit job-related felonies. La Raza says that illegal aliens contribute $15 billion annually in Social Security payments through payroll taxes [by using illegally obtained Social Security numbers – felony].

Now why would the Democrat party, minimize the felony crime aspect of sex trafficking children into the US?  Don't bother answering Dreamer.  Its a rhetorical question.  The pro-pedophile wing of the Democrat party needs to get fresh meat somewhere.

I am sure most unlawful entrants come to the US for a better life.  The US provides opportunities that their socialist countries can't give them.  They are in genera hard workers.  The issue is not this, but that they have entered illegally and have committed felonies to remain in the US.

Further, illegal workers negatively impact the wages of low skilled workers, especially young workers and Blacks.  See

The Impact of Illegal Immigration on the Wages and Employment Opportunities of Black Workers 

The testimony provided, on average, claimed that illegal labor reduced the average annual wages of a Black worker by between $1,000 - $2,000 dollars a year.  The reason is that in many cases low skilled workers were in direct competition for the same jobs and in many instances, those who could speak Spanish were more desirable because they could communicate with other illegal laborers on their crew.  

When illegal labor is not available then wages for legal workers often increases.  As reported in Politico:

We don’t need to rely on complex statistical calculations to see the harm being done to some workers. Simply look at how employers have reacted. A decade ago, Crider Inc., a chicken processing plant in Georgia, was raided by immigration agents, and 75 percent of its workforce vanished over a single weekend. Shortly after, Crider placed an ad in the local newspaper announcing job openings at higher wages.

@Dreamer, I hope you don't support illegal labor.  If so know that you are supporting the oppressor, and hurting the victims of illegal labor.  Somebody's lower wage is always somebody else's higher profit.  Immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer.

John_C_87

@Dreamer
Rising National Debt.

John_C_87

@Dreamer

The so called filing Titled undocumented citizen as the describing of a grievance of person who is in fact documented by criminal law being the less perfect law had foolishly been made suspected criminal. The person male, female, adult, or child has really had a connection to American United State Constitutional Right all along. This titling set by such right comming by way of unbroken 1st Amendment right as unauthorized diplomate of a foreign nation as the adults who pass across the Mexican American border, or any border made by America and some other place other. Are still citizens of their own Country even when standing surrounded by American soil as they have passed a fence not the limits of right and wrong. The small space they stand over is a temporary embassy in accordance to their consitutional state of the union..

Dreamer the writers who are connected to the links are in the process of p[racticing law not unconfirmed Presidents men atempting preservation of United States Constitutional Right for all men created equal by their creator. American States of Law by holding all men not equal in the form of a written criminal law in some way are those who are responsible for the documentation of the immergants. The establishment to justice made, or the establishment of justice that can be uncovered is the word President, or the word Ambassador. Are clearly not titles of crime and criminals but a list of truths that can be held self-evident.

Grievance Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Determining the economic benefit of those in the country illegally is both difficult and subjective.  Why is it difficult?  Well, because their labor is illegal, there aren't accurate records kept.  Its hard to know specifically how much child sex traffickers are making on selling children who have been brought into the country illegally.  How do you determine how much mules make and contribute to the US economy in bringing illegal people into the country?  Since unlawful entrants are often paid under the table, its hard to know the extent of their income and purchases.  If you don't know exactly who is a lawful worker and who isn't, it also makes it difficult to track economic costs.  For example, prison costs.  Most prisoners who are in the country illegally do not inform the authorities of their illegal status.  Same goes for education, unpaid emergency room visits, etc. Since 75% of illegal laborers have fraudulent green cards or SS cards, it is even difficult to know with certainty how much social services are being used. So guestimates are made.

The second thing to keep in mind, is that depending on the political agenda of the group or person doing the calculating, certain items may be overstated, or more likely omitted from consideration.  For examples, those who support illegal labor will claim that illegal laborers add to the economy and are a benefit.  There is some truth to this if you exclude first generation illegal workers-p and again all paid work done by someone in the country unlawfully is a crime..  However, as New York City, LA, and now San Francisco are now telling us, there are lots of costs for having unlawful entrants - educational costs, charity, policing, and the redistribution of wealth away from legal workers - which then increases their dependency on social services.  Cato Institute estimated the economic cost of illegal immigrants to be about a 55 billion a year - that means the costs of illegal labor are greater than the benefits by 55 billion a year.  That includes the estimated 11 million who pay income and other taxes. as part of the calculation.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

Determining the economic benefit of those in the country illegally is both difficult and subjective

I would like to say that is nonsense undocumented workers are documented by criminal law broken as they cross into America. There is no truth in what you say just_sayin. The support given by an ever growing national debt which return as pay for those people who pass law school and bar exam, for many people these same people who do not serve the United States Constitutional Right reap great deal of money from the United States Constitutional sacrifice. This process would means paycheck, unnecessary court backlog as well as growing GDP for taxation purposes. It is no wonder executive office basic in attention of legal teams a criminal law to advance in politics . 

U.S. Immigration Laws and Enforcement | U.S. GAO
Immigration Lawyer | NZ Visas | Auckland

A person who enters America by a border is an ambassador of the nation they came from. Constitutionally and that nation recognizes that person or they do not as their ambassador. If that nation does not recognize an official assignment of the ambassadorship, they have awarded the traveler they the travelers only need sent back it is a right not crime to seek to be an ambassador to America there is no presumption of innocence which needs to wait for a trial. There is not regulation body which need wait for an election and an executive order. Particularly from men who are in no way a President. Voters can be wrong as a united state at a United State of Constitutional Right. It is that simple. It is the immigrants United States Constitutional Right, the men who are by American Declaration of Independence included in the process of law created equal without crimes to all men by their creator. These men to can be a President of the United States Constitutional right,  It may come as a surprise but by criminal legal interpretation of is a President not allowed to serve in the Oval office, Executive officer, and President all by vote. With some work and the process of ratification a women as Presadera can also be held as created equal outside of criminal law completely by a grievance title such as Presadera.

John_C_87

@Dreamer

Do you really want to work on a farm or be a maid? Milk prices would spike by 90% if we got rid of all immigrant labor.

The facts say that the milk will stay in the cow not spike 90%.....I can raise a cow and still work have fresh milk, steak dinners, and fresh butter. It isn't having it all and progress does no depend on code enforcment. Progress can be really made by something like less polution of moving meat, milk, cream and butter around.

Progress can be made by doing something as simple as showing people that Pi and Time are both just measurements of a circle’s circumference. Meaning any changes made in General or Special relativity the calculation of a difference is nothing more than differences made when two clocks come together and are never synchronized. Einstein believed there is a simple explanation for everything if you can find it.

MayCaesar

The term "undocumented citizen" appears to be an oxymoron. What differentiates a citizen from a non-citizen of a country is precisely the official recognition or lack of thereof of the government as the individual being represented by it - and if there is no such documented recognition, then the individual is not a citizen.

John_C_87

@MayCaesar
The term "undocumented citizen" appears to be an oxymoron.

Undocumented citizen is historically connected wording to fascism. History described a group of people became undocumented citizens. It is the next step in Constitutional law that is legislated with only criminal laws and without United States Constitutional Right. A new document becomes a necessity by legislation of criminal law. Much like a fire-arm mis targeted to be a crime, not the acts of harming with a gun itself. This means that everyone who had been a legal citizen before the legislation of the written law instantly lacking all proper documents and no longer is a citizen of the Nation.  

What is the economic effect of the moving worker. A person who travles from state of law to state of law guided by different job titles, different job requirements, and rates of pay.

What differentiates a citizen from a non-citizen of a country is precisely the official recognition or lack of thereof of the government as the individual being represented by it

What makes a person a citizen and what makes a person a non-citizen is connected to the nation’s laws. Often many people are not represented by Congress, Senate, or the oval office they are still a citizen of the United States of America. The point is The American citizen serves, protects, and preserve United States Constitution and our Constitution of consolidated states the job requirements around a search for a more perfect union with established justice, a means to ensure tranquility and a very few other strung together rights. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Tax cuts for the rich could explain the rising national debt.

@John_C_87

This books gives many examples, I still haven't fact checked though and independently verified.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56898095-the-9-9-percent

Dreamer

@just_sayin

The center for immigration studies is a hate group which the opinion author is a fellow for. Your bias is extreme which is self-evident from your wording.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-immigration-studies

Undocumented is a great term because sometimes it really is a bureaucratic error or red tape.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

The center for immigration studies is a hate group which the opinion author is a fellow for. Your bias is extreme which is self-evident from your wording.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-immigration-studies

Undocumented is a great term because sometimes it really is a bureaucratic error or red tape.

Insert head shake and eye roll here.  The only group that I am aware of that calls the Center for Immigration Studies a hate group, is the anti-Christian hate group -the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has been successfully sued several times for its hate filled court deemed slanderous messages about Christians.  Further, the factoid in question, is not from CIS directly, they are quoting the Migration Policy Institute, which is a so-called non-partisan group (actually they are left leaning in reality). .

The term undocumented seeks to minimize the unlawful nature of the entrant's presence in the country.  'Undocumented' workers are not legally allowed to work in the US.  Supporting their presence and work is a pro-crime position.  Further, as I pointed out, even extreme left wing organizations such as La Raza and the LA Times openly admit that about 75% of adult unlawful entrants have have illegally obtained SS cards or green cards.  It is a crime to engage SS ID theft or fraudulently obtain a green card.  Unlawful entrants then often engage in fraud, forgery, perjury, when they use these fake IDs to fill out an I-9 form, rent an apartment, buy a car, get a job, or open a bank account - all of those actions are felonies by the way, if you use stolen or fake ID.  So, if you support illegal labor, then you support the commission of felonies by those who entered the country unlawfully and are breaking the law when they work a job.  Is it fair to prosecute legal residents for committing similar felonies related to ID theft, fraud, forgery, and perjury, but not those who entered the country unlawfully?  Please answer that question.

You have not addressed why it is just to support illegal labor, when it negatively impacts low skilled legal laborers.  Why is it OK to take $1,000 - $2,000 out of Black man's wallet every year so someone can work illegally in the US?  Why is it OK to enable companies to not pay poor legal workers what they would if illegal labor was not available?  From my position it seems as if you have incorrectly identified who is the oppressor and who is the victim. Explain to me how the one who takes work from legal workers, and who entered the country illegally, and who routinely commits felonies of ID theft, fraud, forgery, and perjury is the victim?

John_C_87

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: Tax cuts for the rich could explain the rising national debt.

Funny thing about that connection to established justice there have been super rich, no taxes for anyone, and no national debt all at the same time in America. Could explain...I didn't know that the undocumented people moving between coutries and states had been very rich and not been paying some kind of taxes... once here.

Just for the fact immigration is not the United State Constitutional right broken by those crossing the United States border. Immigration law is criminal law. The American Constitutional issue is people who are diplomats of a foreign nation our entering America without health records, prior immunization, or proof of being an ambassador sent from their country. These are all this an American is expect to have when moving from state to state or traveling out of the country. The one such connection to established justice and ambassadorship can be seen as a up to date national passport. The point is some states are discriminating against American's and civil litigation may be the only way to stop the discrimination against them. The official testimony of representatives from many of these states have claims before United States Constitutional right as law that the civil lawsuits are the more perfect union with established justice on record.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Again, your point of view is so extreme I am not even sure where to begin.

@just_sayin

The fact that you call the Southern Poverty Law Center an anti-Christian hate group. Similar to people rejecting all the skeptic and fact checking websites snopes, Reuters, etc. Your claims are so off base that it makes it difficult to argue with you.

Reminds me of people calling Pastafarian a hate group. An unfounded claim and easy to make while being difficult to debunk. Labeling non-hate groups as hate groups undermines language and makes words lose their meaning. This is a fascist technique.

"Fascist politics seeks to undermine public discourse by attacking and devaluing education, expertise, and language. Intelligent debate is impossible without an education with access to different perspectives, a respect for expertise when one’s own knowledge gives out, and a rich enough language to precisely describe reality. When education, expertise, and linguistic distinctions are undermined, there remains only power and tribal identity."

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2022/01/28/why-is-there-now-such-an-affinity-between-antivaxxers-and-fascism/

Ironically your claims and some of the others are so extreme when I for help I am seen as a troll just JAQ. 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

Which makes it even more difficult to address your arguments.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

The fact that you call the Southern Poverty Law Center an anti-Christian hate group. Similar to people rejecting all the skeptic and fact checking websites snopes, Reuters, etc. Your claims are so off base that it makes it difficult to argue with you.

Reminds me of people calling Pastafarian a hate group. An unfounded claim and easy to make while being difficult to debunk. Labeling non-hate groups as hate groups undermines language and makes words lose their meaning. This is a fascist technique.

"Fascist politics seeks to undermine public discourse by attacking and devaluing education, expertise, and language. Intelligent debate is impossible without an education with access to different perspectives, a respect for expertise when one’s own knowledge gives out, and a rich enough language to precisely describe reality. When education, expertise, and linguistic distinctions are undermined, there remains only power and tribal identity."

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2022/01/28/why-is-there-now-such-an-affinity-between-antivaxxers-and-fascism/

Ironically your claims and some of the others are so extreme when I for help I am seen as a troll just JAQ. 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

Which makes it even more difficult to address your arguments.

 YOU called a group I referenced, which I can't find the reference for them on this thread, until you mention them, - a group that was citing a non-partisan group's statistics, a hate group.  You ignored the Human rights group, and Obama's own commission on Civil rights which found the same thing.  Then, after fabricating a quote from a group I hadn't mentioned, you had the gall to be upset when I pointed out that the SPLC is not an objective group that labels others, but has lost multiple defamation lawsuits for its intentional false labeling Christian groups as hate groups. The SPLC is a extremist left-wing group that has openly targeted Christian groups in its campaign of hate, that's just a fact. You chose to ignore the substance of my argument on unlawful entry into the US.  

You ignored the arguments about how unlawful entrants are taking jobs from low skilled legal workers and how most have committed felonies involving ID theft, fraud, forgery and perjury to live and work in the US.  Why don't you address those issues?  Why is it OK to take $1,000 - $2,000 out of Black man's wallet every year so someone can work illegally in the US?  Why is it OK to enable companies to not pay poor legal workers what they would if illegal labor was not available? Can you explain to me how the one who takes work from legal workers, and who entered the country illegally, and who routinely commits felonies of ID theft, fraud, forgery, and perjury is the victim?

jack

Dreamer said:

What are the economic effects of Undocumented Citizens?

Hello Dreamer:

Given that we're in the midst of a labor SHORTAGE, we need MORE workers - not less.

In 2022, more than 50 million workers quit their jobs, following the 47.8 million who did so in 2021.  During ‘The Great Reshuffle', while quit rates remained high, hiring rates continue to outpace them.  

I do not know WHY the MAGA crowd hates this country so.

https://www.uschamber.com/workforce/understanding-americas-labor-shortage-the-most-impacted-industries

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

Dreamer said:

What are the economic effects of Undocumented Citizens?

Hello Dreamer:

Given that we're in the midst of a labor SHORTAGE, we need MORE workers - not less.

In 2022, more than 50 million workers quit their jobs, following the 47.8 million who did so in 2021.  During ‘The Great Reshuffle', while quit rates remained high, hiring rates continue to outpace them.  

I do not know WHY the MAGA crowd hates this country so.

https://www.uschamber.com/workforce/understanding-americas-labor-shortage-the-most-impacted-industries

excon

Just because someone doesn't want to see legal workers with low skills have their paychecks reduced by $1,000 - $2,000 a year doesn't mean they hate the country.  I don't buy the argument that those who oppose unlawful entry into the country and who oppose illegal labor must be anti-immigrant either.  Those are separate issues.  Conflating them may benefit those who support illegal labor so they don't have to answer too many questions about illegal workers or unlawful entry into the country.  

Personally, I would support a more generous worker permit program that would allow migrants to work legally in the US without any promise of citizenship.  This would immediately bring lots of unlawful entrants out of the shadows and allow them many work protections they don't have now.  For that to make sense though, the number of illegal workers entering the country unlawfully has to be greatly reduced, or legal workers will still be adversely impacted.

jack

just_sayin said:

Most illegal aliens routinely commit felonies

Hello just:

To believe the people who want to share in the American experience are any different than you, is poppycock.

Stay away from the FOX News..  It's rotting your brain..

excon

jack

just_sayin said:

Just because someone doesn't want to see legal workers with low skills have their paychecks reduced by $1,000 - $2,000 a year doesn't mean they hate the country.

Hello just:

Ok, hate was a little strong.  I DO believe you love your country as much as I do..  I just think your wrath is misdirected..  I don't buy your statistics above.  No matter.  The problem at the border IS having major effects on our economy AND our way of life..  You gave us a snippet.. Here's another one..

Undocumented workers FILL the meat packing plants we've been discussing..  The California valley's are FILLED with illegal farm workers..  Should we enact the draconian laws you propose, you need to be willing to pay lots more for your tomatoes, your chickens, and your rib eyes...  And, I mean LOTS..  Plus, you'll have to learn how to cook and clean up after yourself.

I don't have the answer..  But the solution ISN'T keeping people OUT.

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Most illegal aliens routinely commit felonies

Hello just:

To believe the people who want to share in the American experience are any different than you, is poppycock.

Stay away from the FOX News..  It's rotting your brain..

excon

The statistics on the number of illegal workers with SS IDs comes from the Social Security Department and IRS, along with confirmation from La Raza.  Do you question the amount of ID theft going on among illegal workers?  How do you think unlawful entrants can survive in the US without having fake ID and then committing felonies like getting an apartment and signing the 'under penalty of perjury' clause?  It seems rather naïve of you.  Now these are felonies that are being committed.  It is true that these felonies are rarely prosecuted though.  That does not mean that crimes have not been committed.  

Is it fair to those who came to the US legally, and had to wait and pay fees to enter the country, when those who committed crimes to enter the US get in before them?  I wonder if your sense of justice is broken.  You seem to think that some felonies are good felonies, and that those who committed these felonies are good citizens.  Would you think that a legal citizen who committed ID theft, fraud, forgery, or perjury was a good citizen?  Just asking

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Just because someone doesn't want to see legal workers with low skills have their paychecks reduced by $1,000 - $2,000 a year doesn't mean they hate the country.

Hello just:

Ok, hate was a little strong.  I DO believe you love your country as much as I do..  I just think your wrath is misdirected..  I don't buy your statistics above.  No matter.  The problem at the border IS having major effects on our economy AND our way of life..  You gave us a snippet.. Here's another one..

Undocumented workers FILL the meat packing plants we've been discussing..  The California valley's are FILLED with illegal farm workers..  Should we enact the draconian laws you propose, you need to be willing to pay lots more for your tomatoes, your chickens, and your rib eyes...  And, I mean LOTS..  Plus, you'll have to learn how to cook and clean up after yourself.

I don't have the answer..  But the solution ISN'T keeping people OUT.

excon

Studies were done within the last couple of years on how much would food prices increase if there was no illegal labor.  It was surprisingly small - produce would increase by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.  Farming produce is the highest percentage of illegal labor with estimates putting it at about 50% of the workforce being unlawful.  That means that 50% of that workforce are legal laborers.  I'm glad those legal laborers would get a pay raise, how about you?  However, it did surprise me to see how little it would impact the overprice of fruits vegetables - apparently farming is not as labor intensive as it use to be. 

From the San Diego Reader, 

The Myth of Illegal Immigration and Food Prices

An average household currently spends about $370 per year on fruits and vegetables. If curtailing illegal alien agricultural labor caused tighter labor conditions and a 40 percent increase in wages, the increased cost to the American family would be $9 a year, or about 2.5 cents per day. Yet for the farm laborer, the change would mean an increase in earnings from $17,600 to $24,640 per 2000-hour work year. That increase would move the worker from beneath the federal poverty line to above it. In fact, the salary would be higher than the median salary paid by Walmart.

Shouldn't low skilled workers and excons, who have a hard time finding work, get paid what they are worth?  Why the hate for excons who just want to show they have changed and that they will work hard and move up the economic ladder?  Cheap labor doesn't help low skilled workers, it helps companies hiring illegal labor.

jack

just_sayin said:

 Why the hate for excons who just want to show they have changed and that they will work hard and move up the economic ladder? 

Hello again, j:

Like your buddy Bogan, it was only a matter of time before you descended into the gutter..  So, look here..  Got busted for smoking pot.  Have I learned???  HELL no.

Lemme remind you...

Smart  people talk about ideas

Average people talk about things, and

STU-PID people talk about people..

!

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

 Why the hate for excons who just want to show they have changed and that they will work hard and move up the economic ladder? 

Hello again, j:

Like your buddy Bogan, it was only a matter of time before you descended into the gutter..  So, look here..  Got busted for smoking pot.  Have I learned???  HELL no.

Lemme remind you...

Smart  people talk about ideas

Average people talk about things, and

STU-PID people talk about people..

!

excon

Descended into the gutter?  I'll ignore that because you don't know much about my background.  I ran/served on a board for transitional housing for women coming out of prison.  I'm much more of an advocate for helping people restore their lives than you realize.  Would it surprise you to know that I live in a town near DC where 60% of the kids in public school are ESL?  My views are not based on a dislike of my neighbors, but on doing what is just.  It just seems to me you want to sweep all of that illegal stuff under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

MayCaesar

jack said:

Hello again, j:

Like your buddy Bogan, it was only a matter of time before you descended into the gutter..  So, look here..  Got busted for smoking pot.  Have I learned???  HELL no.

Lemme remind you...

Smart  people talk about ideas

Average people talk about things, and

STU-PID people talk about people..

!

excon

Fairly ironic, given how you have talked about 2 different people in this very comment...

Dreamer

@just_sayin

Thread already getting bogged down lots of lanes we are arguing about and a lot of people. To recap you linked to this article:

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/326272-most-illegal-aliens-routinely-commit-felonies/

I researched the author Mortensen and found out he is a fellow at a hate group and therefore not credible.

Ronald W. Mortensen, a fellow with the anti-immigrant hate group Center for Immigration Studies (CIS)

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/05/25/trump-taps-hate-group-fellow-ronald-mortensen-important-post-dealing-refugees

Next, you called the SPLC an anti-christian hate group. At this point I de-attached because your arguments were so extreme. SPLC is a credible source.

"They would like the public to think that speaking out forcefully against bigotry is somehow equivalent to speaking in favor of it."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/splc-left-wing-smear-group/

Dreamer

@jack

You make excellent arguments. With climate change there is going to be a lot more migrants and therefore undocumented citizens. You would think that MAGA would try to stop climate change for this reason, but no they love their collage of contradiction.

"You’ve got people who are fleeing places like western Mexico because of droughts. They’re fleeing places like Honduras because of the intensity and frequency of hurricanes that are just devastating these places."

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Thread already getting bogged down lots of lanes we are arguing about and a lot of people. To recap you linked to this article:

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/326272-most-illegal-aliens-routinely-commit-felonies/

I researched the author Mortensen and found out he is a fellow at a hate group and therefore not credible.

Ronald W. Mortensen, a fellow with the anti-immigrant hate group Center for Immigration Studies (CIS)

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/05/25/trump-taps-hate-group-fellow-ronald-mortensen-important-post-dealing-refugees

Next, you called the SPLC an anti-christian hate group. At this point I de-attached because your arguments were so extreme. SPLC is a credible source.

"They would like the public to think that speaking out forcefully against bigotry is somehow equivalent to speaking in favor of it."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/splc-left-wing-smear-group/

I like engaging with you, however, your deflection tactic drives me crazy.  You dismissed the evidence I presented based on your opinion of the messenger.  Truth is not based on the messenger.  Truth is based on the claim of the evidence being accurate.  So something can be true even if someone you don't like says it.  And something can be false, even if you support the guy who says it.  Truth is truth even if it is said by Donald Trump or Joe Biden, and a lie is a lie even when said by Donald Trump or Joe Biden.  If you disagree with the evidence I presented, argue that, not who spoke it.

I think you will have a hard time arguing with the facts I've presented.  First, they are the same facts cited by pro-illegal labor groups like La Raza.  They cite the SS and IRS numbers of fraudulent SS numbers as evidence that illegal laborers are contributing into the system.  Now you can't say, the numbers are true if cited by a group who supports my point, and at the same time argue, that the same numbers are wrong because they are cited by someone who doesn't support your position.

The claims about 75% of adult illegal workers routinely committing felonies is pretty solid also.  If you disagree with that, then explain how someone working illegally in the US is able to rent an apartment with a lease, buy or lease a car, open a bank account, fill out an I-9 form or e-verify form without committing felonies such as fraud, forgery, ID theft, or perjury?  I'm not arguing that they are prosecuted for these crimes, I'm just pointing out that this is routinely happening.  Tell me honestly, how do you think they obtain those things in the US without using fraudulent ID?  I'm genuinely curious.  Why would they go through extra layers of work when they can buy a green card or SS card outside of a 7-11 for $160 bucks?

Dreamer

@just_sayin

Exposing the flaws of the source and author is a valid tactic. Quacks make both truth and false claims all the time. Yet, I wouldn't listen to them, after a certain amount of bias and error it is too much work to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Undocumented citizens are more law abiding with the exception of the crimes of necessity you mentioned. This is because they don't want to be deported. In fact, good behavior is grounds for them to stay in the country.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

The undocumented are often fleeing terrible circumstances including climate change extreme weather events.

.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Exposing the flaws of the source and author is a valid tactic. Quacks make both truth and false claims all the time. Yet, I wouldn't listen to them, after a certain amount of bias and error it is too much work to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Undocumented citizens are more law abiding with the exception of the crimes of necessity you mentioned. This is because they don't want to be deported. In fact, good behavior is grounds for them to stay in the country.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

The undocumented are often fleeing terrible circumstances including climate change extreme weather events.

.

OMG!  You cited a bogus left-leaning Politifact article and accuse me of bad sources!!!  Had you even looked at the text of the study Politifact mentions - The Integration of Immigrants into American Society (Crime section begins on page 326 of the PDF). You would know that Politifact was wrong, and they were called out on this FAMOUS LIE.  The study doesn't talk about illegal immigration at all.  The immigrants are not divided by legal or illegal in the NAS study.  The studies the document references were of LEGAL immigrants.  The interests of legal immigrants is much different than those who entered the country illegally.  You not only believed a lie, you then turned around and promoted it, all the while attacking the credibility of the source I quoted, which is factually true!!!!!

Politifact claimed 'Undocumented immigrants less likely to commit crimes than U.S. citizens', but then used studies about legal immigrants.  That's a bait and switch tactic that is unethical.  Shame on you!

At least you are admitting that those who entered the country illegally have committed crimes and often continue to do so in order to remain here.  I just wish you could see your 'well the felonies I support are good felonies' argument for the support of criminal activity that it is.  

Dreamer

@just_sayin

Hmmm, I didn't realize poltifact was left center bias.

"Overall, we rate Politifact Left-Center Biased based on fact checks that tend to be more favorable for the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting and a credible fact-checker that is not without bias."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politifact/

I'll double check but according to the article both undocumented and legal had less crime.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-academy-of-sciences-nas/

National academy of science seems center bias.

"He cited a 2015 study by the National Academy of Sciences that backs up this claim."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-academy-of-sciences-nas/

John_C_87

@just_sayin
At least you are admitting that those who entered the country illegally have committed crimes and often continue to do so in order to remain here.

I noticed a trend, what is the United States Constitutional Right given for entering the Country?
By Illegal I take it you are only speaking of the people who have been arrested convicted sent back and have returned to the U.S.A?

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Hmmm, I didn't realize poltifact was left center bias.

"Overall, we rate Politifact Left-Center Biased based on fact checks that tend to be more favorable for the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting and a credible fact-checker that is not without bias."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politifact/

I'll double check but according to the article both undocumented and legal had less crime.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-academy-of-sciences-nas/

National academy of science seems center bias.

"He cited a 2015 study by the National Academy of Sciences that backs up this claim."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-academy-of-sciences-nas/

Even the left of center Politifact said in its fake fact check that there aren't accurate studies on the issue.  Even the federal government admits this.  It tracks illegal immigrant crime - the problem is that those who are in the country illegal must self-identify.  That's a very bad way to do it.  Further, and I keep mentioning this, it depends on if we are talking COMMITTING crimes or PROSECUTED crimes.  Many of the felonies committed by unlawful entrants are not prosecuted.  That does not mean they weren't committed.  It is incredibly disingenuous if someone ignores obvious felonies that have been committed by those who entered the country illegally and then declare that they are less likely to commit crimes.  

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

@just_sayin
At least you are admitting that those who entered the country illegally have committed crimes and often continue to do so in order to remain here.

I noticed a trend, what is the United States Constitutional Right given for entering the Country?
By Illegal I take it you are only speaking of the people who have been arrested convicted sent back and have returned to the U.S.A?

US law requires that non-US citizens enter the country at an authorized port of entry and to provide the appropriate authorization for them to enter.  If you ignore this, then you have entered the country illegally.  This is typically not a felony the first time, it is a felony if it is the second or greater attempt.  The term 'unlawful', 'illegal', 'undocumented' applies after they entered that way, even if they have not been convicted or sent back yet.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

US law requires that non-US citizens enter the country at an authorized port of entry and to provide the appropriate authorization for them to enter.  If you ignore this, then you have entered the country illegally.  This is typically not a felony the first time, it is a felony if it is the second or greater attempt.  The term 'unlawful', 'illegal', 'undocumented' applies after they entered that way, even if they have not been convicted or sent back yet.

So the criminal code as law says a baby can be illegal depending on where it is born according to criminal law. I am not saying this to play dumb I know and understand what the powers of interpretation of law might translate the law to say one way or the others. The legal argument still falls on what does the American Constitutional United state of right as law say in comparison to the criminal law translation? It states as truth that the citizen of the mother maters if the child can be an American citizen or not. The United States Constitution does have some rights already written about the grievance. However an obstacle is that all women are not created equal by a declaration of Independence only an alibi of sexual discrimination was given not to hold the all equal and give women a free pass. 

Of course it is this kind of issue that warrants an executive order to ensure women can in fact vote as a united State as the Amendment which allows a female to vote is conditional upon legal findings. A women and man are both authorized points of border entry into America acording to law. Consitutional law that is written as right without crime.

Dreamer

@just_sayin

Well much of the same could be said of anyone including natives. Visa overstays often exceed illegal border crossings. If you overstay your visa I don't think you need fake ids as much.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecutive-year-visa-overstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings

Committing crimes is an effective way to bring unwanted attention to yourself and get deported. Good behavior is a way to stay under the radar and if you've been law abiding for years makes it more difficult to deport. You make sure your brake light works and don't run any stop signs if you don't want to be pulled over.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Well much of the same could be said of anyone including natives. Visa overstays often exceed illegal border crossings. If you overstay your visa I don't think you need fake ids as much.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecutive-year-visa-overstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings

Committing crimes is an effective way to bring unwanted attention to yourself and get deported. Good behavior is a way to stay under the radar and if you've been law abiding for years makes it more difficult to deport. You make sure your brake light works and don't run any stop signs if you don't want to be pulled over.

Scratching my head.  Just how can someone who entered the country illegally and remains in the country illegally be considered law abiding?  Every day seems to be a choice to break the rules. Again, it seems to me that you are claiming that some felonies are good felonies.  The problem with this is that a) it unequally applies the laws - if citizens of the US committed the same crimes of ID theft, fraud, forgery, and perjury they would be prosecuted, and b) it ignores the victims of illegal labor - legal migrants who have to wait longer to get into the country, if they can at all because of the numbers of unlawful entrants, and low skilled legal laborers who earn less as a result of illegal labor.

Dreamer

I'm not sure if documented immigrants have to wait longer to get in the country because of visa overstays and illegal border crossings.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

I'm not sure if documented immigrants have to wait longer to get in the country because of visa overstays and illegal border crossings.

The numbers of immigrants allowed in are determined based on the number of immigrants in the country, both legally and illegally.  So yes, unlawful entrants do impact the wait times of legal immigrants.  

bluesky

Argument Topic: Tax cuts for the rich could explain the rising national debt

The topic which was raised by Dreamer is important and worth thinking. So I want to present my opinion regarding the topic a few days later. 

Dreamer

Undocumented can be people born in the US without birth certificates. For example, In Jason Stanely's book:

"India has a large body of residents born in India but lacking documentation such as birth certificates that establish this fact. Decisions must be made about who among them should count as a citizen and should not. There is a significant concern, legitimated  by the parties behind this project, that the decision will be made on the basis of religion" Muslims deported Hindus stay.

Dreamer

The Trump administration wanted immigrants infected so they would be associated with disease.

"EOIR has ordered immigration court staff to remove CDC posters designed to slow spread of coronavirus."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/what-was-trump-dojs-problem-with-covid-prevention-posters.html

Trump calling covid the "China virus" to re-frame as nationalist conflict.

bluesky

Argument Topic: Raising tax rate for the rich is urgently required

These days some of the wealthy countries like the U.S. and Japan are facing national debt. Not only the top management of big business but wealthy people of those countries are accumulating a large amount of money. 
So it is urgently required to impose higher taxes among them. This might be helpful to reduce national debt. 
However, unfortunately in the U.S. lobbyists play an important role to avert imposing higher taxes for them. 
They are exerting an enormous influence in the national congress. 
But U.S. government should raise tax rate to vitalize national economy and keep stable finance of the government. 
Tax must be used for many immigrant people.  The important thing is that the U.S. government should spend much money on educating and job training for younger people coming into the country as immigrants not spending on 
military expenditures for Ukraine and Israeli. 
This is important to vitalize the U.S. economy and society because the aging of the work-force in many industries 
is very rapidly progressing. 

Dreamer

bluesk

You make many valid points. I would have given you a great argument, except the part about the democracy Ukraine. We need to support our democratic ally.

Yes, tax the rich but difficult due to lobbyists. We need job training and education, I agree.

just_sayin

bluesky said:

These days some of the wealthy countries like the U.S. and Japan are facing national debt. Not only the top management of big business but wealthy people of those countries are accumulating a large amount of money. 
So it is urgently required to impose higher taxes among them. This might be helpful to reduce national debt. 
However, unfortunately in the U.S. lobbyists play an important role to avert imposing higher taxes for them. 
They are exerting an enormous influence in the national congress. 
But U.S. government should raise tax rate to vitalize national economy and keep stable finance of the government. 
Tax must be used for many immigrant people.  The important thing is that the U.S. government should spend much money on educating and job training for younger people coming into the country as immigrants not spending on 
military expenditures for Ukraine and Israeli. 
This is important to vitalize the U.S. economy and society because the aging of the work-force in many industries 
is very rapidly progressing. 

OMG, you are a pirate!  You want to take what people have lawfully earned from them.  The level of avarice and envy in the post is overwhelming.  One has to ask oneself a fundamental question - 'Do we tax too little, or spend too much?'  I would suggest that the truth is that the government spends too much.  If you don't control the spending, it won't matter how much you tax someone, you will never have enough.  If you care about living in a sustainable way, then you should support a balanced budget amendment that would require the US to have a balanced budget.  It would need to have a transitional period and clauses for extreme emergencies, but the general rule should be that we act our wage and live within our means.  

Raising taxes will not have the result you intend.  Instead, people will move their money to places where greedy pirates can't take it away.  

If you care about immigration, then you have to recognize the dire economic impact that losing immigrants to America has on other countries incomes.  It severely reduces them.  Causing even more suffering there.  You don't seem to care about those poor people stuck in those countries.  Legal immigrants are always welcome, but illegal labor hurts, legal workers by reducing low skilled workers wages.  Is that just?  Maybe in pirate land it is, but not in places that value justice.

just_sayin

A common talking point for those who are pro-illegal labor is that illegal labor is good for the economy because unlawful entrants use no social services.  This turns out to be false according to statistics from the Census Bureau's 2022 Survey of Income and Program Participation..  As reported in CIS

We estimate that 59.4 percent of illegal immigrant households use one or more welfare programs. Compared to the U.S.-born, illegal-headed households use every program at statistically significant higher rates than the U.S.-born, except for SSI, TANF, and housing. Even the larger share of illegal immigrant-headed households using three or more programs at 35.5 percent (shown at the bottom of Table 2) is statistically significant relative to U.S.-born households.

Many Democrats are now calling for stricter border enforcement due to the economic impact of illegal labor on their city's economy.  Often those who support illegal labor fail to recognize that illegal labor harms low skilled legal workers in the US.  According to Obama's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration, illegal labor costs the average Black worker between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in reduced wages.  Illegal labor contributes to higher Black unemployment rates.  And according to Democrats, it increases social spending costs.

Another aspect that is often ignored by pro-illegal labor is the economic impact on the countries from where the unlawful entrants have come.  As they leave their home countries, they reduce the economies there, which further makes the conditions in these socialist countries worst.  

Dreamer

@bluesky

I usually don't respond to white nationalist just_trolling. Yet, the latest post is extreme even for them.

"

• Overall, we rate CIS a questionable source based on publishing misleading information (propaganda) regarding immigration and ties either directly or indirectly to the John Tanton Network, a known White Nationalist. 

---

Detailed Report

Reasoning: Anti-Immigration Propaganda, Misleading Claims
Bias Rating: EXTREME RIGHT
Factual Reporting: LOW"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/center-for-immigration-studies-cis/

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@bluesky

I usually don't respond to white nationalist just_trolling. Yet, the latest post is extreme even for them.

"

• Overall, we rate CIS a questionable source based on publishing misleading information (propaganda) regarding immigration and ties either directly or indirectly to the John Tanton Network, a known White Nationalist. 

---

Detailed Report

Reasoning: Anti-Immigration Propaganda, Misleading Claims
Bias Rating: EXTREME RIGHT
Factual Reporting: LOW"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/center-for-immigration-studies-cis/

OMG!  They are literally quoting the Census Bureau's data.  Again, it doesn't matter if you hate the messenger.  The question is always is the message true, and in this case it is.  How many times are you going to disqualify messages you hate because it comes from people you hate?  Truth is truth, even if Joe Biden reads it from a teleprompter.  

The other day you literally accused the Moms of Liberty of being a hate group due to proven anti-Christian slandering SPLC.  Did you read their 'hate' report on the group?  The extent of their misconduct was waiting their turn at PTA meetings and trying to get conservatives elected to school boards.  Hardly, conducting 480 riots in the summer of 2020 as BLM did.  This Potemkin group, SPLC, didn't name BLM a hate group after 480 riots where 25 people were killed, thousands of buildings were damaged, and billions in damage were done.  That seems a whole lot more nefarious than waiting your turn to speak at a PTA meeting.  You are starting to beclown yourself with your ad hominem arguments.

John_C_87

A common talking point for those who are pro-illegal labor is that illegal labor is good for the economy because unlawful entrants use no social services. 

I just want to point out that by asigning a State or Federal crime to a person who is not even a citesen of the country yet you are devoting all kinds of Federal and State tax money to be spent on them before they ever get here.

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

A common talking point for those who are pro-illegal labor is that illegal labor is good for the economy because unlawful entrants use no social services. 

I just want to point out that by asigning a State or Federal crime to a person who is not even a citesen of the country yet you are devoting all kinds of Federal and State tax money to be spent on them before they ever get here.

Wrong John,  no crime is committed until they CROSS THE BORDER.  Therefore money spent on securing the border is not spent on a crime, but to prevent them.  More accurately money is spent on border security, which any sovereign nation has a right to do.  

John_C_87

Wrong John,  
Okay, it is wrong of me or others as a United State of law to address immagrants who cross a State border the same way and consistancy that we treat very young children who cross a Fedreal border all over the country. Great thing about holding a state of the union with United States Constitutional Right and established justice, sometimes it is the better thing to be. " Wrong."

no crime is committed until they CROSS THE BORDER. 
The criminal law written can be a crime, ‘could ' that is not my point I’m trying to make. " John, no crime is committed until they cross the border. " The crime begins as soon as the person plans to not follow a United States Constitutional right that does not exist on how to enter a work area. It is not provable till a crossing takes place.  


Therefore money spent on securing the border is not spent on a crime, but to prevent them.    
If it is not a crime and a United States Constitutional right did not obey a person can simple be sent back. This process puts Americans to work as clerks, transport and record keeping not twenty lawyers do redundant work.

More accurately money is spent on border security, which any sovereign nation has a right to do.

I do not know if you understand this by the obligation of the Federal Government is to establish a state of the union with international issues, whenever possible with United States Constitutional right which is explained best way to preserve integrity of its own borders with foreign nations together with the States. Two completely different things. I find it funny that the word Sovereign Nation is used a word inherited from England. 

SOVEREIGN | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary