Is a vote for the LEAST immoral candidate in 2024 all we can really do?

just_sayin

Openminded said:

I left Twitter (X) when Musk took over. I felt uncomfortable with his chaotic, unregulated platform. I joined Debate Island just recently in hopes of more civility and truth. I´ve seen several posts comparing and contrasting Democrats and Republicans which has been eye opening. Personally, I feel there´s a lot of gaslighting in these arguments and many things just do not add up when doing fact-checking such as the Dems being in bed with the KKK, the Dems being racist, etc. I´ve fact checked these allegations and come up with no proof of this. However, I´ve been humbled also. I, like others, tend to live in my comfortable, familiar bubble. For example, the Democrats are extreme also in their views. I feel the world is upside down now. Truth is hyperbole, Lies are normal, Braggadocio is strong, Gaslighting is a defense.  In the end, should Americans use the morality vs. immorality argument to sway their votes? Should morality, (right/wrong, good/bad behavior) as it once was, be a litmus test for good leadership? Is that all we truly have to go on?

You left X because it doesn't restrict free speech?  

Now I don't know if Democrats are still in bed with the KKK.  However, it would be a lie to say they never were.  Democrats did indeed get into bed, under the white sheets, with the KKK.  Democrat state and federal conventions were often called Klan bakes because of the influence the KKK held over the party.  FDR appointed a known KKK member to the Supreme Court.  The now deceased Senator Robert Byrd, a prominent Democrat, was literally a recruiter for the KKK - that was his formal job at one point. It was Democrats who supported Jim Crow laws.  It was a Democrat who stood on school steps to keep Black children from attending good white public schools.  And a greater percentage of Democrats voted against the 5 Civil Rights bills of the late 60's/early 70's, than Republicans.  

I think you may be blind to the racism that the Democrat party openly supports.  For example Affirmative Action is a racist policy that favors or penalizes someone based on their race.  Policies that discriminate based on race in college admissions, hiring, promotions, awarding contracts, grants or benefits is a racist policy.  I'm sure you would argue that the racism you support is good racism because it helps the races you favor, but it is still racism.  While it may benefit the races you favor, it unjustly penalizes the races you don't favor.  That's the very definition of racism.

DEI policies are often loaded with racism.  To claim that you can know someone's thoughts, intentions, implicit biases, privileges, guilt, or oppressor/victim status by only knowing their race is a racist notion.  This is a common idea in many DEI programs. The only thing you can know by knowing someone's race is their race.  To claim otherwise is a racist claim.  To suggest that a poor white kid with a single parent living in a trailer with broken windows has privilege while Obama's daughters do not is ignorance personified.  If white privilege were real, poor Appalachian kids would save up their pennies and go to Walmart and buy them some of that. 

Another Democrat policy that is racist is its opposition to school choice.  Many inner city schools are disproportionately Black and have historically been bad schools for 50 plus years.  To demand that a Black child remain chained to a failed public school may benefit the teacher's union, and Democrat politicians who get a lot of money from teacher's unions, but it doesn't benefit that Black child.  That's why 85% of Black parents support school choice.  They know it may be the only hope that their child gets a good education.  As Juan Williams frequently says 'school choice is the civil rights issue of our generation'.  He's right.  And once again Democrats are on the wrong side of the issue.  

jack

Openminded said:

I feel the world is upside down now.

Should morality, (right/wrong, good/bad behavior) as it once was, be a litmus test for good leadership? Is that all we truly have to go on?

Hello O:

Welcome.

In the end, that's all we have.  One would presume that a moral person would pursue morality in his administration, while an immoral person wouldn't.  The problem we have is, it's getting harder to tell who is moral and who is not. 

Used to be, you could tell.  But, the world IS upside down.

excon

John_C_87

@Openminded
My understanding is we can vote for whoever we want...

Our vote may not be counted for a number of reason after being cast. There is by truth only one political party in America so finding truth is highly unlikely. The reaons for separation between the groups is clear their are people who do not wish to be associated with other people. Historically we new this by the America Delcaration of Independence stating as a truth to be held that " all men are created equal by their creator." Not long after the ending of the War of Independence the civil claims started filing in to America and States that the statement was not truth and by fact is a lie. We the people do not have to hold all men equal by there creator people can break the law by claims of doing right, the Civil War of equality began.

The proof of this was a women could not be President of the United States of America legally if there was United States Constitutional Right, written as Law of the people. What did this mean to people, in many opinions it meant that the United States Constitution must be broken Once it was gone there would be no criminal reason that a women could not be simple just the power of vote made President, legal or not,  problem solved. Well, here we are with the problem solved and the power of the vote is to be the victor. The problem is that the issue was not solved, it was ignored and discrimination became a way to justify the excuse of ignorance. Now many voters are in fact in a line of pending litigation to lose our very right to vote. It is safe to say that this method of state of the union was not more perfect than lets say making all men created eqaul by their creator by linking the equality of the men to one word... That word was " President." What made the American Presdient one of a kind is he would then be attached to the reprentation of all men with American United States Consitution. this sounds like a goal I can hold true as a man, it sounds like a goal a women could also hold true as right. No crime only right by a series of well spoken truths that apply.

Will it work perfectly for women as President of the United States of America? I was once given an order to hold a liberty and not pursue a United Sates Constitutional Right. I have been told in the matter of a female President I have no idea how civil courts work. I have been counseled by a licensed counselor damage must be provable to have taken place and the cause of the damage must also be in truth connected to the damage. 

Should morality, (right/wrong, good/bad behavior) as it once was, be a litmus test for good leadership? Is that all we truly have to go on? No. It is not all we have to go on.

MayCaesar

There is this observation that Cicero 2 millennia ago made: that everyone always thinks that they live at an especially crazy time. That the world made a lot of sense just a few years ago than it does now. That the youth is corrupt, the elderly are insane, and the middle-aged are lost.

30 years ago, in my country of citizenship the president ordered tanks to shoot at the parliament building, with all the survivors not loyal to the president arrested subsequently. How is that for a crazy time? Everyone back then was saying, "The whole world is looking at us laughing. We are living in the wildest time ever". They had already forgotten how just 3 years ago the very same tanks were shooting at peaceful demonstrators all around the country, back then controlled by a communist government...

There is nothing special about this period in the US; nothing is upside down. Some things are worse than they were a few years ago, other things are better. You can do the same things as before: act according to your values. No need to dramatize things. Hopefully the next president is not a senile old guy, for a change, but even if not, it is okay.

Openminded

Argument Topic: I left twitter....

@just_sayin
You left X because it doesn't restrict free speech?  I believe in the First Amendment. I don´t believe in the promotion of reckless speech especially in the current political climate we are in. Musk is abusing his power and bully pulpit by promoting reckless speech. X is a privately owned entity that Musk, as owner, has the responsibility to regulate in a way that does not infringe on free speech. But sigh, I am a hopeless optimist and feel that good will prevail. And letś face it, Musk is having fun.

Now I don't know if Democrats are still in bed with the KKK.  However, it would be a lie to say they never were.  Democrats did indeed get into bed, under the white sheets, with the KKK.  Democrat state and federal conventions were often called Klan bakes because of the influence the KKK held over the party.  FDR appointed a known KKK member to the Supreme Court.  The now deceased Senator Robert Byrd, a prominent Democrat, was literally a recruiter for the KKK - that was his formal job at one point. It was Democrats who supported Jim Crow laws.  It was a Democrat who stood on school steps to keep Black children from attending good white public schools.  And a greater percentage of Democrats voted against the 5 Civil Rights bills of the late 60's/early 70's, than Republicans.  For you to wax poetically on things that happened decades ago is disingenuous and a gaslighting technique that unfortunately has become normalized. 

I think you may be blind to the racism that the Democrat party openly supports.  For example Affirmative Action is a racist policy that favors or penalizes someone based on their race.  Policies that discriminate based on race in college admissions, hiring, promotions, awarding contracts, grants or benefits is a racist policy.  I'm sure you would argue that the racism you support is good racism because it helps the races you favor, but it is still racism.  While it may benefit the races you favor, it unjustly penalizes the races you don't favor.  That's the very definition of racism. I argued against this with you already. Dems promote AA to LIFT up the marginalized. When the most marginalized gets lifted, an unintended consequence occurs - another one gets left behind. Hardly the definition of racism. To sensationalize this is gaslighting and clearly disingenuous.

DEI policies are often loaded with racism.  To claim that you can know someone's thoughts, intentions, implicit biases, privileges, guilt, or oppressor/victim status by only knowing their race is a racist notion.  This is a common idea in many DEI programs. The only thing you can know by knowing someone's race is their race.  To claim otherwise is a racist claim.  To suggest that a poor white kid with a single parent living in a trailer with broken windows has privilege while Obama's daughters do not is ignorance personified.  If white privilege were real, poor Appalachian kids would save up their pennies and go to Walmart and buy them some of that. White privilege does not mean that whites do not have struggles and challenges, it simply means that our struggles are not the direct result of our skin color.  It is not a personal attack on white people. it is simply an awareness. It seems that extremist views on this are scare mongering. Turning it into racism is a huge stretch. What is it about trying to lift up and empower the least fortunate (meant to benefit society as a whole) that seems to make you so uncomfortable?

Another Democrat policy that is racist is its opposition to school choice.  Many inner city schools are disproportionately Black and have historically been bad schools for 50 plus years.  To demand that a Black child remain chained to a failed public school may benefit the teacher's union, and Democrat politicians who get a lot of money from teacher's unions, but it doesn't benefit that Black child.  That's why 85% of Black parents support school choice.  They know it may be the only hope that their child gets a good education.  As Juan Williams frequently says 'school choice is the civil rights issue of our generation'.  He's right.  And once again Democrats are on the wrong side of the issue. Covid has brought out many issues to contend with. Schools that once operated fairly well, have now been exposed as failing. I honestly claim my ignorance in this area. I will need to research. But I can´t help but wonder if school choice is all inclusive, just who actually benefits? Is is really school choice or the choice  schools make? Also, what happens to the public school district? 

Bogan

Dear Mr Openminded.     Like "Just-sayin" said so eloquently, "You left Twitter because Elon Musk believes in free speech"?     I am already a bit worried about you.    My specialty is deprogramming lefties and you seem to be an interesting case.     Anyhoo, welcome to Debate Island.      Now, let me introduce you to some of the regulars that you should avoid. .     Dee, Piloteer, John Smith, Barnadot, and Jack/excon are not here to debate at all,    They are trolls doing their best to stifle debate.     They never debate, they simply heckle with endless sneery one liners.     You will soon see what I mean.

John-C-84 is really John Fetterman.    He is probably a really nice guy, but his sometimes very long posts are usually completely unintelligible and indecipherable ..   You will soon see I am right about that too.

Next comes MayCaesar who is a Russian living in the USA.    I think he is really a colonel in the KGB.    He is also a troll, but he is much more clever about it than the previous characters named.     His dirty tactic is to criticise every thing you say, while never submitting an argument himself that you can attack.      A "debate' with MayCaesar is not a debate, it is an Inquisition.     There are a few clued up debaters who know and use MayCaesar's dirty tactic, and if you wish to contribute on debate sites then you should be aware of this, and be able to recognise it.       My advice to you is, since there are two sides to a debate, then both opponents need to submit an argument supporting their premise.    Both sides then attack the other sides argument or it's logic.   Never let yourself get sucked into a "debate" where you are the only one doing all the work while the other guy just sits back and poo poo's everything you write.  To do so will see you running around in circles trying to convince an opponent who has no intention of debating both sides of an issue on it's merits, and who is laughing at you.  

That being said, let me begin your deprogramming.     I have no idea why you seem to hold Donald J. Trump in contempt?     But I suspect it is because you are probably a young, university educated person who identifies with the educated elitists caste, and believing that Trump is just awful is obligatory to maintaining your group membership to that brahmin caste?

One would have thought that with the whole world looking at the now obvious dysfunctions in the Democrat controlled areas of the USA, and laughing their collective heads off at that, you might have considered that the opposition, led by Mr Trump was right all along?

jack

Openminded said:

White privilege does not mean that whites do not have struggles and challenges, it simply means that our struggles are not the direct result of our skin color.

Hello again, O:

Now that Bogan has introduced you to the players, let's get into it.  In ONE sentence, you laid rest our right wing element..  That would be ONE sentence.  Brevity rules!

excon

Bogan

Openminded quote   I believe in the First Amendment. I don´t believe in the promotion of reckless speech especially in the current political climate we are in.

 Your position is a contradiction.      You can not believe in the First Amendment, and then imply that “reckless” speech should not be “promoted”.     Who’s speech is “reckless”?    How would you like it if right wingers labelled your opinions “reckless” and insisted that the First Amendment did not apply to you?

Openminded quote   Musk is abusing his power and bully pulpit by promoting reckless speech.

Once again, you are implying that “reckless” speech should be banned?      The people who control every totalitarian regime on planet earth would agree with you.     I am certain that I probably disagree with everything you believe in, but I will defend to the death your right to express your “reckless” opinions. 

Openminded quote  X is a privately owned entity that Musk, as owner, has the responsibility to regulate in a way that does not infringe on free speech.

Elon Musk, who is an admirable person and one of the smartest people on planet earth, calls himself “a free speech absolutist.”     But your position seems to me a complete contradiction?     You seem to be implying that Musk should not “infringe on free speech” while not promoting “reckless” speech.    You can have one or the other.  You can not have both. 

 Openminded quote  But sigh, I am a hopeless optimist and feel that good will prevail.

Good did prevail.     Elon Musk bought a failing company for $60 billion dollars because it had become not only the propaganda wing of the Democratic party, it was infested with FBI agents busily policing the opinions of ordinary people, and “recommending” that the ones who questioned government policy or criticised corrupt Joe Biden and his crooked family be taken down.     Which just happens to be an underhanded violation of the US First Amendment.      Which you claim to believe in.      Sometimes.  

Openminded quote   And letś face it, Musk is having fun.   

  I am sure that Elon Musk could have a lot more “fun” with $60 billion dollars than by purchasing a failing business that promoted the interests of one side of US politics, while suppressing the interests of the other.     I think he did the USA an enormous favour by cleaning out the FBI agents and the activists masquerading as journalists.   Most Australians wish he would do the same for the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation), and the Brits wish he would do it for the BBC (Baathist Broadcasting Corporation). 

 Openminded quote    For you to wax poetically on things that happened decades ago is disingenuous and a gaslighting technique that unfortunately has become normalized. 

 All “just-sayin” did was to remind you that the Democratic party was the party of the KKK, something that they do not like being reminded of when they pretend that they care about Africans today. 

 

Openminded quote   Dems promote AA to LIFT up the marginalized.

AA meant imposing racial quotas for employment and university admission.     Selecting people entirely upon their skin colour is racism.     If you are arguing that this racism is okay because it’s intent  was to “lift up the marginalised”, then you are tacitly admitting that racism can be a good thing if it is done with noble intentions      If this is not your meaning, then please explain how your logic works when you attack racism and then approve of racism?

 Openminded quote      When the most marginalized gets lifted, an unintended consequence occurs - another one gets left behind. Hardly the definition of racism. To sensationalize this is gaslighting and clearly disingenuous.

 It is not “disingenuous” to point out that selecting candidates based entirely upon their skin colour is the very essence of racism.      Claiming that it is not racism because it is supposed to “lift up” the “marginalised”, is excusing racism, because it is the sort of racism that you approve of.     Either you approve of racism or you do not.  You can not believe in two diametrically opposed concepts at the same time. 

 Openminded quote   White privilege does not mean that whites do not have struggles and challenges, it simply means that our struggles are not the direct result of our skin color.  It is not a personal attack on white people.

If you claim that the only reason why Africans can not prosper in white, western society is because of “white privilege”, then you are accusing white people of somehow, keeping black people down.     Blaming one race for the dysfunctions of another is racism.      That is a personal attack on all white people.  It is also the reason why I stopped bring an anti racist lefty, and stated thinking straight.     You may not be able to spot the contradiction, but I could. 

Openminded quote   It seems that extremist views on this are scare mongering. Turning it into racism is a huge stretch.

It looks like self evident logic to me.    If you select people for their skin colour, that is racism.  If you blame one race for the dysfunctions of another, that is racism too.    Claiming it is not racism because your intentions are good, is hypocrisy.     You are basically saying that racism on behalf of your worldview is good, while racism on behalf of your opponent’s worldview is the epitome of evil. 

Openminded quote       What is it about trying to lift up and empower the least fortunate (meant to benefit society as a whole) that seems to make you so uncomfortable?

 Perhaps because your “solution” is racist?     And you can not condemn racism if you do it yourself?    

 

Openminded quote  Covid has brought out many issues to contend with. Schools that once operated fairly well, have now been exposed as failing. I honestly claim my ignorance in this area. I will need to research. But I can´t help but wonder if school choice is all inclusive, just who actually benefits? Is is really school choice or the choice schools make?

 Well, Mr Openminded, keep your mind open, and keep this in mind.     Marxism is simply a government “of the public service, by the public service, and for the public service.” What Trump is trying to get through to you, is that in the US (and other western nations as well) the public service is now too powerful and it is entirely self serving.    In much of the western world, educational standards are falling because the sundry Education Departments within western countries are much more concerned with their wages, conditions, and pensions, than doing their jobs.      Too many teachers today got their degrees, not from academic excellence, but because of their skin colour.    These teachers and the unions which represent them have vested interest in maintaining a system which is rotten and is failing the kids.     They are pushing all sorts of crazy left wing concepts to kids including CRT and Transgender theory, because lefties back up lefties and they are all scratching each others backs.     There is a youtube video which showed that the African head of the Detroit Education Department was illiterate.    When you get to that level of insanity, it is time for a Donald Trump, or a Nicky Haley, or a De Santis to clean the crooks out.

just_sayin

jack said:

Openminded said:

White privilege does not mean that whites do not have struggles and challenges, it simply means that our struggles are not the direct result of our skin color.

Hello again, O:

Now that Bogan has introduced you to the players, let's get into it.  In ONE sentence, you laid rest our right wing element..  That would be ONE sentence.  Brevity rules!

excon

White privilege does not mean that whites do not have struggles and challenges, it simply means that our struggles are not the direct result of our skin color.

The premise of this statement is not just racist but harmful also.  Ibram X Kendi is emphatic on this point - ALL DISPARITIES ARE CAUSED BY RACISM.  This is a false claim.  This claim dismisses factors such as choice, chance, and chromosomes have on us.  It suggests that Blacks have no personal agency and are perpetual victims to their 'oppressors' (those poor white children in Appalachia who rarely ever see a Black person).  This is just silly.

Of course personal choices impact outcomes.  It is rare you will find 2 identical twins who have the same net worth.  The choices and chance events they experience will often result in different outcomes for them.  If identical twins don't do equally well, then it is a fallacy to think people of differing color will always do equally well.

The issues that poor Black kids in inner cities  face are often very similar to those of poor white kids in Appalachia - raised by a single parent, bad schools, lack of jobs, lack of opportunities, little or no support, etc.  Kendi can see this for the poor white kids, but refuses to acknowledge these factors impact outcomes for poor Black kids.  He sees these kids as unable to have personal agency and alter their outcomes, which is an incredibly racist notion.

Of course a kid who comes from a single parent home is more likely to be poor, struggle in school, more likely to drop out, go to jail, commit suicide, skip school, and have a teenage pregnancy.  That's not a white privilege or a Black privilege - that's two parent privilege.  To pretend that it is a white privilege is a harmful lie.  As a Black pastor once put it 'the greatest obstacle for success for a Black child, is not the presence of the white man, but the absence of the Black father.'

The left leaning Brookings Institute has said that if you are poor and you do just 3 things, there is a 98% chance that you will rise to the middle class within a decade: 1) Finish high school (the more education the better), 2) Don't have kids until you are at least 21, 3) and get a job - any job to start.  None of these are race based, and apply to all races.  Most people, regardless of their race - can do these 3 things.

As a son of Appalachia, I have had to confront the notion that "there is no way out" argument over and over with my family.  They will say that there aren't any jobs, there isn't a good education to be had.  There isn't any support.  They will point out how they were cheated out of their land rights by coal mining companies and this caused generational poverty.  A lot of that is true, but the choices they make can influence their outcomes.  To lie and tell them it can't is just unethical.  The same goes for Black kids.  Telling them that there is no hope - that they are victims and will always be victims, just blame the white man, won't change their situation.  

What you falsely call white privilege is not white at all.  There are many privileges in the world.  We don't all start out at the same place and we don't all have the same set of privileges.  Yes, Blacks have faced many injustices in the past and that impacts where they start from.  But it is a lie to say that the differences are due to white privilege, as most Appalachian Americans are much poorer than inner city Black families.  If white privilege is real, then the truck didn't make it up the holler to Appalachian kids to deliver it.

jack

Bogan said:

 Your position is a contradiction.      You can not believe in the First Amendment, and then imply that “reckless” speech should not be “promoted”.     Who’s speech is “reckless”?    How would you like it if right wingers labelled your opinions “reckless” and insisted that the First Amendment did not apply to you?

Hello again, Bogan:

It must be noted here, that you would BAN movies and books, because, you know, if a kid watches a shoot 'em up movie, he's compelled to go out and shoot somebody... 

Seriously..  You believe that nonsense..  Du*de! 

That bit of brevity belies your whimpering simpering crap about those reckless libtards who wanna destroy the 1st Amendment..

Du*de again!

excon

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hi welcome to debate island waves. :)

@Openminded

The lesser of two evils is a step in the correct direction. The book I finished reading makes the case of that US is not polarized. MAGA has gone off the deep end while liberals remain sane. Saying we are polarized is being overly respectful to conservatives.

Trump 30k lies while in office

Conservatives are more likely to be deniers of vaccines, climate change, creationism and believe in qanon.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@Openminded

The lesser of two evils is a step in the correct direction. The book I finished reading makes the case of that US is not polarized. MAGA has gone off the deep end while liberals remain sane. Saying we are polarized is being overly respectful to conservatives.

Trump 30k lies while in office

Conservatives are more likely to be deniers of vaccines, climate change, creationism and believe in qanon.

It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left:
1) Racist - they support racist AA and DEI policies that discriminate against Asian and white people.  They think their racism is good racism.
2) Anti-educational freedom - they support keeping Black kids chained to bad schools when good voucher schools are available
3) Anti-parental rights - they support distributing kiddie-porn books in grade schools, and silencing parents about them, they want to keep hidden from a parent if their child is showing signs of gender dysphoria which has a 5 times higher risk of suicide.  They have asked the FBI to look into parents at PTA meetings to silence them.
4) Anti-Science - they deny that human life begins at conception and that there are 2 biological sexes, they deny GMOs are safe, they fight against Nuclear Power though it is safer than solar or wind.  
5) Pro-Inflation - they support policies which have raised rents, electricity prices, gas prices, and the cost of everything
6) Anti-Poor - to buy the same things that you could under Trump the average person must make 10,000 more a year now.  They want poor people to have to by EV cars which cost $20,000 more than regular cars.  
7) Pro-Baby killing - they support killing innocent unborn babies - and some support killing newborn babies from botched abortions
8) Anti-Free Speech - they want to arrest moms at PTA meetings for speaking out about pornographic books.  They pushed false Russian collusion narratives but worked with social media companies to shut down accurate comments about COVID, and Hunter Biden's laptop.  
9) Anti-Semitic - many leaders in the Democrat party have espoused Jew hatred and have not supported Israel's right to exist
10) Anti-religious - several have wanted to deny people's 1st amendment rights to freedom of religion - they have even wanted bakers to make cakes to celebrate weddings that their faith says are wrong. They celebrated the shutting down of churches and synagogues during COVID.  They want to mandate what other people can believe
11) Pro-Crime - Democrats have sought to have no bail for criminals while demonizing police and attempting to defund them
12) Pro-Illegal Labor- Democrats support illegal labor which costs the average Black man between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in lost wages.

And that's just the first dozen.  

Bogan

@Dreamer

Dreamer quote   Conservatives are more likely to be deniers of vaccines, climate change, creationism and believe in qanon.

 While social regressives are more likely to be believers in anthropogenic climate change, that left wing socialism can still work even though it failed in the 46 countries who were stu-pid enough to implement it, governments should enforce political censorship to prevent “hate speech” , left wing ideology is infallible, and that minority dysfunction is always the fault of those dastardly, evil, and insidious racist white people, who stereotype and prejudge other people.      

Openminded

Argument Topic: About evil left

@just_sayin

I won´t pigeonhole ¨the right¨ as you have ¨the left¨. There is evil on both sides. But here is what some believe.

1. First, you seem to be hellbent on saying people that support AA & DEI policies believe their racism is good racism. Is this some kind of FOX News or Newsmax talking point? Could this be a gaslighting or projection technique that´s rampant amongst extreme right wingers since Trump has normalized this?

 Racism - You can´t yell ¨Racist ¨ to those who believe helping blacks is long overdue. How many years have African Americans been subjugated in America? How many years have they NOT been given the same opportunities as Whites? And let´s not mention the hangings, the beatings, the subjugations.  It wasn´t too long ago that blacks had to sit at the back of buses, couldn´t be seen with a white woman, could not use the bathrooms, drinking fountains of white Americans. Remember? Supporting DEI policies is not racism. Supporting marginalized people is meant to help them become educated and free. Ya know, the rights we were GIVEN?

 2) Educational freedom. No one supports keeping black kids chained to bad schools. Another broad statement that holds no credence. Wasn´t it you who said that Blacks should go to traditional ¨good¨ HBCU schools instead of reaching for exceptional schools? Are you suggesting that blacks stay on their own turf? Isn´t this a racist remark? Your assertion that good voucher schools help black kids is not confirmed. In fact, there are studies done that hold mixed reviews.

parental rights - they support distributing kiddie-porn books in grade schools, and silencing parents about them, they want to keep hidden from a parent if their child is showing signs of gender dysphoria which has a 5 times higher risk of suicide.  They have asked the FBI to look into parents at PTA meetings to silence them.

3) Parental rights. No one supports the distribution of kiddie-porn books in grade school.  I´m sure that Moms for Liberty has been working real hard on pushing this. If you actually believe Moms are for Liberty, then you´ve been hoodwinked. Moms are for power and control. Yes, SOME books. If some books have been found in elementary school libraries, I also believe they should not be available for this age. But the majority are found in Middle Schools. Sexuality is an important topic for young teens. If Momś believe that a book about sexuality is wrong, dirty, then perhaps keep your children home, teach them your ways, teach them to reject all other opinions, and isolate your children. That is your right. But to assert that kiddie-porn is being distributed is absolutely laughable.
4) Anti-Science - they deny that human life begins at conception and that there are 2 biological sexes, they deny GMOs are safe, they fight against Nuclear Power though it is safer than solar or wind.  
4. Science: People that believe in science, in data gathered through research then proven by facts and testing, generally do not believe life begins at conception. An embryo may be developing, but it is not a viable human life until 3-5 months after conception. If you believe in the immaculate conception - and that is your right - then you´re likely to believe that life begins at conception. Others believe this to be simplistic and fantastical thinking and tend to be more critical thinking. Your bible beliefs are your own, but should never be used as a yardstick to measure others. Others also believe that homosexuals, lesbians, transexuals, and bisexuals have existed for centuries. Not sure where you believe that others deny GMOs are safe? Who fights nuclear power? 

5. Inflation: Honestly, you´re way off the rail here. Are you just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks? Who supports policies that raise the cost of everything? Fox News, Newsmax talking points? Biden´s administration is working on punishing and regulating (yes, regulation is meant to help Americans) corporations that price gouge. Please look into this. THIS is what´s largely responsible for inflation since the pandemic. Large corporations, including oil companies are profiteering off of Americans and blaming the pandemic. Look this up. Trickle down is actually Siphon Up. Itś called corporate welfare.

6. Poor: Trump inherited a healthy economy and had a somewhat quiet workload with the exception of Covid. He did nothing except lower taxes for the wealthy, and TEMPORARILY lower taxes for the middle class. Look it up. This over sensationalized tax increase for the middle class was meant to last only until 12/31/25. However, the taxes for the wealthy - well thatś meant to be forever for some. Electric cars are the future. Now I honestly wonder also, how Americans can afford them, but I wonder how they can afford groceries and Iḿ hoping that thing will get better overall. We are going clean energy. There is NO turning back. There is NO such thing as clean coal and we just cannot keep emitting CO2 and methane into the atmosphere. We must work toward cleaning up our environment. The earth is warming. Global warming is real. Does it make sense to clean up after every climate disaster that are increasing yearly? As of November 8, there have been 25 weather and climate disasters with losses exceeding $1 billion. $1 billion in less than one month.

7. Abortion: What news channel or newspaper do you read? Where do you get your information: NO ONE supports killing babies. PERIOD. 

8. Free Speech: The moms you talk about are believed to be an extreme right wing group of angry mothers who yearn for some control. It seems as if they want control of their kids, and also the school districtś kids. Moms for Liberty have been associated with The Proud Boys. Now I believe SOME books need to be pulled IF they are in elementary school libraries but sensationalizing and exaggerating the problem is not beneficial. The Russian collusion thing was not false. Trump was not fully exonerated for this as inconclusive evidence was lacking. Russia DID interfere with the 2016 election - that was proven. Hunter´s laptop? I´ve heard this over and over for five years. We shall see.

9. Jews: I´m sure there are leaders on the right that believe the same. I don´t believe this is a right or left issue.

10. Religion: Are you saying the left are against religion? False and a blanket judgment. I  believe a privately owned bakery owner - ignorant and closed-minded as he/she may be, should have the right to refuse to serve. I believe strongly that ¨good Christians¨ should be actually following Jesus. The shutting down of churches and synagogues has nothing to do with religion. Nobody, except extreme evangelicals want to mandate what others can believe.

11. Crime: Most of us believe in law enforcement and most Americans know we need to reduce crime. Another fallacy pushed by right wing media is the left don´t believe in law enforcement. The ´no bail´ was done for a reason, but I do believe it´s results are questionable, too soon yet to tell. Defund was a word wrongly used. I believe what was meant was to REallocate where the money goes in law enforcement - more for educating new cops -  more training for the police force to work well with the public.

12. Illegal Labor:  Not sure about your ¨Democrats support illegal labor which costs the average Black man between $1,000-$2,000 a year in lost wages¨  That does not make sense?  But if that is the case then Trump did quite well as he employed hundreds of immigrants, illegal and legal. And if that is the case, the blacks lost again.

John_C_87

I may cast a vote to impeach...I have a United State Constitutional Right to Vote for a President of Presadera. It should stand I have United States Constitutional Right and unbroken 1st Amendment right the democracy does not provide that choice of President or Presadera. I'm used to being ignored........anyway….lol.

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

I may cast a vote to impeach...I have a United State Constitutional Right to Vote for a President of Presadera. It should stand I have United States Constitutional Right and unbroken 1st Amendment right the democracy does not provide that choice of President or Presadera. I'm used to being ignored........anyway….lol.

You are loved John; just not always understood.

Bogan

@Openminded

I would like to contribute to the discussion between yourself and "just-sayin", but in your last contribution, I could not differentiate between your comment's and those of "just-sayin"   Could you at least leave a space between your comment's and just sayin's comment's?   Starting each paragraph submitted by your opponent with a "quote" heading would help a lot, also.

John_C_87

@just_sayin
just not always understood

Just vote to impeach both Presidential candidates and not pick the less wrong. Is the Presidential ballot a petition if not can it be used as a cost effective one.

Dreamer

@Openminded

Just some friendly constructive criticism. You make great arguments but don't provide enough spacing between paragraphs. You also overused bold text. Welcome to debate island.

Openminded

@Dreamer Thank you for the constructive criticism! I´m new and still trying to figure this out!

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 1) Racist - they support racist AA and DEI policies that discriminate against Asian and white people. They think their racism is good racism.

@just_sayin

I won´t pigeonhole ¨the right¨ as you have ¨the left¨. There is ´evil´ on both sides. But here is what many believe.

First, you seem to be hellbent on saying people that support AA & DEI policies believe their racism is good racism. Is this some kind of FOX News or Newsmax talking point? Could this be a gaslighting or projection technique that´s rampant amongst extreme right wingers since Trump has normalized this?

1. Racism - You can´t yell ¨Racist ¨ to those who believe helping blacks is long overdue. How many years have African Americans been subjugated in America? How many years have they NOT been given the same opportunities as Whites? And let´s not mention the hangings, the beatings, the subjugations.  It wasn´t too long ago that blacks had to sit at the back of buses, couldn´t be seen with a white woman, could not use the bathrooms, drinking fountains of white Americans. Remember? Supporting DEI policies is not racism. Supporting marginalized people is meant to help them become educated and free. Ya know, the rights we were GIVEN?

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 2) Anti-educational freedom - they support keeping Black kids chained to bad schools when good voucher schools are available

@just_sayin

2) Educational freedom. No one supports keeping black kids chained to bad schools. Another broad statement that holds no credence. Wasn´t it you who said that Blacks should go to traditional ¨good¨ HBCU schools instead of reaching for exceptional schools? Are you suggesting that blacks stay on their own turf? Isn´t this a racist remark? Your assertion that good voucher schools help black kids is not confirmed. In fact, there are studies done that hold mixed reviews.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 3) Anti-parental rights - they support distributing kiddie-porn books in grade schools, and silencing parents about them, they want to keep hidden from a parent if their child is showing signs of gender dysphoria which has a 5 times higher risk of suicide. They have asked the FBI to look into parents at PTA meetings to silence them.

@just_sayin

3) Parental rights. No one supports the distribution of kiddie-porn books in grade school.  I´m sure that Moms for Liberty has been working real hard on pushing this. If you actually believe Moms are for Liberty, then you´ve been hoodwinked. Moms are for power and control. Yes, SOME books. If some books have been found in elementary school libraries, I also believe they should not be available for this age. But the majority are found in Middle Schools. Sexuality is an important topic for young teens. If Momś believe that a book about sexuality is wrong, dirty, then perhaps keep your children home, teach them your ways, teach them to reject all other opinions, and isolate your children. That is your right. But to assert that kiddie-porn is being distributed is absolutely laughable.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 4) Anti-Science - they deny that human life begins at conception and that there are 2 biological sexes, they deny GMOs are safe, they fight against Nuclear Power though it is safer than solar or wind.

@just_sayin
4. Science: People that believe in science, in data gathered through research then proven by facts and testing, generally do not believe life begins at conception. An embryo may be developing, but it is not a viable human life until 3-5 months after conception. If you believe in the immaculate conception - and that is your right - then you´re likely to believe that life begins at conception. Others believe this to be simplistic and fantastical thinking and tend to be more critical thinking. Your bible beliefs are your own, but should never be used as a yardstick to measure others. Others also believe that homosexuals, lesbians, transexuals, and bisexuals have existed for centuries. Not sure where you believe that others deny GMOs are safe? Who fights nuclear power? 

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 5) Pro-Inflation - they support policies which have raised rents, electricity prices, gas prices, and the cost of everything

@just_sayin

5. Inflation: Honestly, you´re way off the rail here. Are you just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks? Who supports policies that raise the cost of everything? Fox News, Newsmax talking points? Biden´s administration is working on punishing and regulating (yes, regulation is meant to help Americans) corporations that price gouge. Please look into this. THIS is what´s largely responsible for inflation since the pandemic. Large corporations, including oil companies are profiteering off of Americans and blaming the pandemic. Look this up. Trickle down is actually Siphon Up. Itś called corporate welfare.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left:6) Anti-Poor - to buy the same things that you could under Trump the average person must make 10,000 more a year now.  They want poor people to have to by EV cars which cost $20,000 more than regular cars.

@just_sayin
6. Poor: Trump inherited a healthy economy and had a somewhat quiet workload with the exception of Covid. His one glory was lowering taxes for the wealthy, and TEMPORARILY lowering taxes for the middle class. Look it up. This over-sensationalized and misunderstood tax increase for the middle class was meant to last only until 12/31/25. However, the taxes for the wealthy - well thatś meant to be forever for some. Electric cars are the future. Now I honestly wonder also, how Americans can afford them, but I wonder how they can afford groceries and Iḿ hoping that thing will get better overall. We are going clean energy. There is NO turning back. There is NO such thing as clean coal and we just cannot keep emitting CO2 and methane into the atmosphere. We must work toward cleaning up our environment. The earth is warming. Global warming is real. Does it make sense to clean up after every climate disaster that are increasing yearly? As of November 8, there have been 25 weather and climate disasters with losses exceeding $1 billion. $1 billion in less than one month.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 7) Pro-Baby killing - they support killing innocent unborn babies - and some support killing newborn babies from botched abortions

@just_sayin
7. Abortion: What news channel or newspaper do you read? Where do you get your information: NO ONE supports killing babies. PERIOD. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 8) Anti-Free Speech - they want to arrest moms at PTA meetings for speaking out about pornographic books. They pushed false Russian collusion narratives but worked with social media companies to shut down accurate comments about COVID, and Hunter Biden's laptop.

@just_sayin
8. Free Speech: The moms you talk about are believed to be an extreme right wing group of angry mothers who yearn for some control. It seems as if they want control of their kids, and also the school districtś kids. Moms for Liberty have been associated with The Proud Boys. Now I believe SOME books need to be pulled IF they are in elementary school libraries but sensationalizing and exaggerating the problem is not beneficial. The Russian collusion thing was not false. Trump was not fully exonerated for this as inconclusive evidence was lacking. Russia DID interfere with the 2016 election - that was proven. Hunter´s laptop? I´ve heard this over and over for five years. We shall see.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 9) Anti-Semitic - many leaders in the Democrat party have espoused Jew hatred and have not supported Israel's right to exist

@just_sayin

9. Jews: I´m sure there are leaders on the right that believe the same. I don´t believe this is a right or left issue.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 10) Anti-religious - several have wanted to deny people's 1st amendment rights to freedom of religion - they have even wanted bakers to make cakes to celebrate weddings that their faith says are wrong. They celebrated the shutting down of churches and synagogues during COVID. They want to mandate what other people can believe

@just_sayin

10. Religion: Are you saying the left are against religion? False and a blanket judgment. I  believe a privately owned bakery owner - ignorant and closed-minded as he/she may be, should have the right to refuse to serve. I believe strongly that ¨good Christians¨ should be actually following Jesus. The shutting down of churches and synagogues during Covid has nothing to do with religion as many institutions were shut down. Nobody, except extreme evangelicals want to mandate what others can believe.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It seems to me that you have forgotten the numerous 'evils' of the left: 12) Pro-Illegal Labor- Democrats support illegal labor which costs the average Black man between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in lost wages.

@just_sayin
12. Illegal Labor:  Not sure about your ¨Democrats support illegal labor which costs the average Black man between $1,000-$2,000 a year in lost wages¨  That does not make sense?  But if that is the case then Trump, using immigrants for cheap labor, did quite well as he employed hundreds of immigrants, illegal and legal. Again, look it up. And if that is the case, the blacks lost once again.

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin

I won´t pigeonhole ¨the right¨ as you have ¨the left¨. There is ´evil´ on both sides. But here is what many believe.

First, you seem to be hellbent on saying people that support AA & DEI policies believe their racism is good racism. Is this some kind of FOX News or Newsmax talking point? Could this be a gaslighting or projection technique that´s rampant amongst extreme right wingers since Trump has normalized this?

1. Racism - You can´t yell ¨Racist ¨ to those who believe helping blacks is long overdue. How many years have African Americans been subjugated in America? How many years have they NOT been given the same opportunities as Whites? And let´s not mention the hangings, the beatings, the subjugations.  It wasn´t too long ago that blacks had to sit at the back of buses, couldn´t be seen with a white woman, could not use the bathrooms, drinking fountains of white Americans. Remember? Supporting DEI policies is not racism. Supporting marginalized people is meant to help them become educated and free. Ya know, the rights we were GIVEN?

Hey, first thanks for breaking up the points.  It was going to be too much to respond over and over to all at once.  

The expression "they think their racism is good racism" is mine alone.  I should copyright it.  It encapsulates the fact that many who claim racism is immoral, actually support various forms of it.  Affirmative Action and DEI policies are racist policies and programs.  They favor or discriminate for or against someone based on their race.  This is racism.  As Bogan told you - if racism is wrong, then those policies are wrong because they are racist (and if you knew Bogan you would get the true irony of this).  

I am sure your intentions are good intentions.  At the heart of the matter is an immoral and perverted idea of justice.  You see justice as only going down to the group level.  If something helps someone of a group you favor, then you rationalize it is just to harm the person of the group you disfavor.  True justice though goes down to the INDIVIDUAL level.  Your view has dehumanized the individual and reduced them to a mere automaton of whatever racial group they are a part of.  You have failed to seek justice for the individual.  To do that you must see them as an individual human being and make judgements based on their individual skills, abilities, and character.  That's why Affirmative Action and DEI are not just racist, but immoral also.  They are based on perverted view of justice that dehumanizes people and sees them only as their group affiliation.  

Thomas Sowell calls what you want 'cosmic justice' - only God could justly administer it..  You want to right past historical wrongs by making white people today pay for them.  For that to make sense though  there would need to be some spaceless, timeless amalgam of all white people where you can blame one white for the actions of another white from another time and place.  Its an immoral and perverted view of justice.  While wanting to help raise up someone is noble, tearing someone else down to do it is unjust and in this case racist.  You support racist ideas and polices every bit as much as a member of the KKK, and like a KKK member you will rationalize that the racism that you support is good racism.  

Because so many of the left hold these racist beliefs, it is indeed fair to point out their support of racism.  If you don't like being lumped in with them, then repent and change your racist beliefs and support for racist policies.

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin

2) Educational freedom. No one supports keeping black kids chained to bad schools. Another broad statement that holds no credence. Wasn´t it you who said that Blacks should go to traditional ¨good¨ HBCU schools instead of reaching for exceptional schools? Are you suggesting that blacks stay on their own turf? Isn´t this a racist remark? Your assertion that good voucher schools help black kids is not confirmed. In fact, there are studies done that hold mixed reviews.

I'm not saying that the left actively seek to give Black kids a bad education, but by denying Black children educational freedom they are essentially doing just that.  Again, most of these inner city schools have been failed public schools for decades.  Any honest evaluation of them would tell you that under ideal conditions it would take more than a decade to turn a school around - that's if its even possible.  Just how long should a poor Black child have to remain in a bad public school?  When Democrats deny school vouchers or access to charter schools, then they are sentencing that Black child to a bad education.  

I do not want to keep anyone out of a school they qualify for; that's your position - you are OK with keeping out more qualified Asian students out of schools to allow for lesser qualified students to get in.  I have pointed out that it is a lie that without racist Affirmative Action policies Black students can't succeed.  I have pointed to the phenomenal success of HBCUs as an example of this.  Again, HBCUs are just 3 percent of the schools in the US, with 10% of all Black students, but produce 20 percent of all Black graduates, 40% of all Black engineers, and 50% of all Black lawyers.  Racist Affirmative Action policies are not needed to produce more Black graduates - but in fact can harm some Black students by placing them in academic programs that they are not prepared for the academic rigor.  

Bogan

Either Openminded or Just sayin quote (I am still confused).   Although. I think it is probably Openminded.

 

1.          First, you seem to be hellbent on saying people that support AA & DEI policies believe their racism is good racism. Is this some kind of FOX News or Newsmax talking point? Could this be a gaslighting or projection technique that´s rampant amongst extreme right wingers since Trump has normalized this?

 No.  It is a self evident fact.     If you discriminate for or against a person because of the colour of their skin, that is racism.     If you blame an entire race of people for the dysfunctions of another race, that is racism too.        You, Mr Openminded (if it is Openminded) genuinely believe that you are an anti racist, and you really are having trouble getting your head around the fact that the policies that you endorse which will supposedly end racism, are in fact racist themselves.       That is the fundamental contradiction in your logic which I can keep shoving in your face until you start to think twice about your contradictory belief system.      Here in Australia, the importation of African blacks from the horn of Africa was so catastrophic in terms of serious criminal behaviour, welfare dependency, and a general inability to act in a civilised way, that even the pro Open Borders Labor party of Australia supported the proposal that no more Eritreans, Somalis, or Sudanese would be accepted as refugees into Australia.    The sight of young black Africans running around Australian streets, (or invading people’s homes) and threatening Australians with machetes was too much for even the Australian “anti racist” liberals like yourself.

 

Openminded ( I think)quote      Racism - You can´t yell ¨Racist ¨ to those who believe helping blacks is long overdue. How many years have African Americans been subjugated in America?

 Africans have never been “subjugated” in Australia or France, and Britain ended slavery 400 years ago.     The average African in the USA, Britain, France and Australia is much better of economically and socially that the average African in Africa.     Yet African descended people in every western country are very disproportionately represented in serious violent criminal behaviour.        US blacks achieved civil rights 60 years ago.    How much longer can people like yourself keep using that excuse to explain away African dysfunction that is prevalent everywhere?

 

Openminded (I think)     How many years have they NOT been given the same opportunities as Whites? And let´s not mention the hangings, the beatings, the subjugations.  It wasn´t too long ago that blacks had to sit at the back of buses, couldn´t be seen with a white woman, could not use the bathrooms, drinking fountains of white Americans. Remember? Supporting DEI policies is not racism. Supporting marginalized people is meant to help them become educated and free. Ya know, the rights we were GIVEN?

 You are once again blaming white people today for black dysfunction.      Of course, historically in the USA, much of what you have claimed has more than a grain of truth in it, although you don’t seem to have any appreciation of historical context.   Where your argument comes crashing down, is the indisputable fact that no matter in which white, western country that they inhabit, certain ethnicities are always dysfunctional.   You can not blame lynching's, race specific drinking fountains, sitting at the back of a bus, or consorting with white women for that outcome in Britain, France, and especially Australia.     In Australia, successive state and Federal governments from both the right and left side of politics have bent over backwards to give African "refugees" benefits that they deny their own people.     When the first African "refugee" entered Australia thirty years ago, the Federal government sent agents into commercial real estate offices in order to purchase houses which were for sale on the commercial market.    These suburban houses were then rented at rock botton rents to Africans, which they could well afford from their overly generous, Australian provided welfare benefits.       They then gave every African family a AUS$15,000 dollar gift so that the family could purchase whitegoods and furniture.   The result?

Sudanese born people are 67 times more likely to be charged with aggravated robbery and 55 times more likely to be charged with riot and affray in Victoria than those born elsewhere, according to analysis released by the Victorian Crime Statistics Agency.        The annual crime statistics to the end of March showed a rise in gang crime including car jacking, assaults, street robberies and drug offences, despite the state achieving it's lowest criminal incident rate since march 2015, when population growth is taken into account.     Figures for the last five years has shown that people from Sudan/South Sudan has consistently been among the top two or three places of birth for offenders charged with violent offences.  Sudanese born people were responsible for 1% of Victoria's crime despite being only 0.15% of the population.

Your racist implication that black dysfunction is a product of white racism or discrimination does not wash.       Once you figure out that your thinking is wrong, then maybe you can develop the capacity to start thinking straight, and face a fact which you do not want to even think about.

  

Openminded

Argument Topic: Well, Mr Openminded, keep your mind open

@Bogan Hello Bogan. I did give it a shot with you but honestly I don´t quite trust you and feel I will regret continuing to debate with you. Your views are over the edge extreme with a spattering of propaganda and a sprinkling of .
P.S: Trump is a thug and will be convicted. Trump will never be allowed to run anything EVER again.
Now it´s time to fold ´em.

Bogan

@Openminded

Openminded quote   Hello Bogan. I did give it a shot with you but honestly I don´t quite trust you and feel I will regret continuing to debate with you. Your views are over the edge extreme with a spattering of propaganda and a sprinkling of .

 Hi Mr Openminded.    I am not surprised that you cut and ran because you really are a confused little lefty who is obviously is finding it hard to come to term with your own racism.     I will chalk that up as another win for common sense.     The way I operate, is to force loony lefties to face the contradictions in their own logic, which all of them seem to be completely unaware of.     Take you.    You support Affirmative Action and DEI, and it never even entered your brain that by doing so, you were endorsing racism.    It was really funny when you made your previous post, where you suddenly realised that AA and DEI were racism personified.   But like most brainwashed young lefties, instead of figuring out that something is fundamentally wrong with your thinking if you can accept two diametrically opposed concepts at the same time, you instead became emotive and tried to deflect the debate away from where you did not want it to go. 

 For your information, I am an electrician.    Like most working class people, I was never especially political.     But I simply got sick and tired of university caste lefties always slandering my race, my country, my flag, and my civilisation.    So, I got on these debate sites twenty years ago so that I could cross swords with people like you, and see just how smart and informed they really are.    My conclusion?    Not very smart or well informed at all. 

 I have been on a lot of debate sites, and what usually happens is that some self righteous young lefty comes into the area with an arrogant attitude thinking that he is quickly going to put those cretinous racists and “deplorables” in their place.      First, they get angry and emotional when their culturally conditioned slogans supporting their views get easily demolished.     Then an interesting thing happens.     The smart ones become more respectful and ask intelligent questions, which I answer.     These debaters seem to gradually drift away and I get the impression that my words did get them thinking.     The low IQ ones just get even more angry and either refuse to continue debating, or else they throw tantrums and become trolls.

 I am sorry for you if you are in the second category.    However, if you ever grow some balls and can get your IQ quotient higher, come back and I will helpfully deprogram you and get you thinking straight.  Once you can think straight, your IQ will rise.        You are never going to be an effective advocate for whatever causes you hold dear, if you can not confront the clear contradictions in your thinking.     You can only be an effective debater, if your belief system makes sense without being contradictory, and you can easily cross connect lines of thought because all of your ideology makes sense, regardless of from what direction it is attacked from.

 Cheerio.    PS.   I will probably still respond to your posts to “just-sayin” in the hope that the penny will drop and you can start thinking straight.    Also, although “just-sayin” and I do have different perspectives on racism, we still like to help each other out from time to time. 

   

P.S: Trump is a thug and will be convicted. Trump will never be allowed to run anything EVER again.

 Donald trump will be the next President of the USA.    If the forces of evil and corruption succeed in incarcerating him, then two things will happen.   You will make the USA even more of a laughing stock than it already is now under Biden, and your nation may experience another civil war.     You have already had two civil wars, if you count the Revolutionary war as one.     The persecution of Donald Trump is making him more and more popular with ordinary people, to the point that he is now almost a folk hero.   My advice to you, is to get out of whichever left wing wackydemia echo chamber you inhabit, and have a look around the real world.    

Openminded

Argument Topic: Openminded quote Hello Bogan. I did give it ....

@Bogan ; Thanks for all the debate. I did actually look into several things you´ve expressed and I thank you for those. But many of your assertions are old tropes from decades ago. Bringing back old tropes like it was the Dems who founded KKK (debunked) and given more life lately by the extremists. I look forward to debating reasonably with people. But I have a certain radar for gaslighting and flimflam hocus pocus .

Bogan

@Openminded

It wasn't much of a "debate".    Most people who cross swords with me in the arena usually put up a better fight than you did before they run away, hurling curses as they go.

The problem which you and every other supposedly "anti racist" liberal has, is that there is only two possible racist explanations for minority dysfunction.     The first racist explanation is, "blame the white guy for everything" which can be easily dismissed.   You are the one running way from examining this question further, not me.     You are obviously very uncomfortable discussing this topic because you know I will be all over you like a rash.

The second racist explanation is, that races are not equal, and different "bell curves" of IQ among races and different genetic predispositions to violent behaviour explains everything to any body who has a functioning brain and an impartial mind.

I stopped being an anti racist when I realised that everybody was racist, so I laugh at virtue signaling people like your good self who claim to be oh, so farking virtuous because you claim to be anti racist, while at the same time you support racist policies like AA and CRT.     It is because your position is a contradiction, it is child's play to debate against people like you.   Time for you to find a dark and silent corner, turn on your critical analysis circuit, switch off all of your liberal prejudices, and just crunch the hard data.    You may then start to realise that banging a contradictory ideology is not what intelligent people do.   Intelligent people say, "let the truth be told, though the heavens may fall."

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin

3) Parental rights. No one supports the distribution of kiddie-porn books in grade school.  I´m sure that Moms for Liberty has been working real hard on pushing this. If you actually believe Moms are for Liberty, then you´ve been hoodwinked. Moms are for power and control. Yes, SOME books. If some books have been found in elementary school libraries, I also believe they should not be available for this age. But the majority are found in Middle Schools. Sexuality is an important topic for young teens. If Momś believe that a book about sexuality is wrong, dirty, then perhaps keep your children home, teach them your ways, teach them to reject all other opinions, and isolate your children. That is your right. But to assert that kiddie-porn is being distributed is absolutely laughable.

The books that the Moms For Liberty are asking to be removed contain explicit images and content.  Gender Queer has images of minors performing oral sex and of a character fantasying about a naked adult male playing with the 'manhood' of a naked boy who is not yet a man.  Another commonly cited book contains descriptions of naked boys in the shower and of a circle jerk at a summer camp.  Now I'm sure you'll argue that grade school children need to know these things.  But I content, that grade school is not the location for them.  Why are images of minors performing oral sex, which can't be shown on pornhub because they show naked minors performing sex acts, OK to be in public schools?  I get why a pedophile would want this, but why would someone who is not pro-pedophile want it?

Instead of admitting that they are sanctioning sexually explicit materials where pedophilia is glamorized and not condemned, Democrats are attacking parents who are speaking up.  Democrats have sided with the creepy joe, who sniffs girls without their consent whenever he can sneak up on them, about this issue.  Deny the anti-parental/ pro-pedophile connection if you want to, honest people know otherwise.

Openminded

Argument Topic: The books that the Moms For Liberty are asking to be removed contain explicit images and content.

@just_sayin

I agree that Gender Queer should not be offered in the libraries of elementary schools but I cannot find where it actually was offered. There are many books that rightly should not be offered especially at the elementary school level. Now as far as pedophilia being pedaled - ya gotta wonder - is this whole book banning thing being exagerrated and blow way out of proportion? I mean, there are still people who believe the conspiracy theory that Hilary Clinton ran a pedophilia ring in a Pizza shop. One has to wonder about extreme evangelicals. And one also wonders, is this REALLY about sex or GAY sex? I´ll concede that many books should be reviewed - and they are being reviewed. And just why are Toni Morrison books banned? And why is To Kill a Mockingbird banned? And why is Charlotteś Web banned? And many book about being transgender? And many books on the Bible? What millions are wondering is Are Moms for Liberty really protecting their children or are they protecting their narrow-minded views on just what people should believe? Honestly Moms for Liberty gets laughed at in my school community. They´ve taken something that could have been reasonable (banning books like Gender Queer or Lawn Boy) and blew it way out of proportion to fit their self-righteous, narrow-minded religious views. 

Finally, when you use childish adjectives, ¨sleepy Joe" and others, it tend to negate you. Please don´t act like Trump.

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin

I agree that Gender Queer should not be offered in the libraries of elementary schools but I cannot find where it actually was offered. There are many books that rightly should not be offered especially at the elementary school level. Now as far as pedophilia being pedaled - ya gotta wonder - is this whole book banning thing being exagerrated and blow way out of proportion? I mean, there are still people who believe the conspiracy theory that Hilary Clinton ran a pedophilia ring in a Pizza shop. One has to wonder about extreme evangelicals. And one also wonders, is this REALLY about sex or GAY sex? I´ll concede that many books should be reviewed - and they are being reviewed. And just why are Toni Morrison books banned? And why is To Kill a Mockingbird banned? And why is Charlotteś Web banned? And many book about being transgender? And many books on the Bible? What millions are wondering is Are Moms for Liberty really protecting their children or are they protecting their narrow-minded views on just what people should believe? Honestly Moms for Liberty gets laughed at in my school community. They´ve taken something that could have been reasonable (banning books like Gender Queer or Lawn Boy) and blew it way out of proportion to fit their self-righteous, narrow-minded religious views. 

Finally, when you use childish adjectives, ¨sleepy Joe" and others, it tend to negate you. Please don´t act like Trump.

It is not self-righteous to fight for their children's educations.  It is narrow-minded for people pushing a sexual agenda to put books that have explicit sexual and pro-pedophile content in a public school library.  

Books like Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird were opposed by left wing people who felt that its language was inappropriate for today's sentiments.

Openminded

Argument Topic: It is not self-righteous to fight for their children's educations.

While I agree that some books shouldn´t be shelved in school libraries at certain school ages, the outrage expressed about certain books is way out of line and being sensationalized. School boards, teachers, parents have been reviewing and challenging books for decades. And suddenly hundreds of books have been banned the past two or three years. And who is PRO-pedophile? Most of these books are being demonized and exaggerated for their content. The point is, in 2023, we shouldn´t be outright banning a books because they make sensitive people uncomfortable. Again, SOME books should be removed from school libraries depending on the content.

John_C_87

@Openminded
Psst..........!
Psst.........!
Yeah you.........Openminded, want to know a secret? It is not the books that might get band that are the loss to a sociaty it is the books that are shelved and never translated that are the real loss to sociaty.

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin

5. Inflation: Honestly, you´re way off the rail here. Are you just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks? Who supports policies that raise the cost of everything? Fox News, Newsmax talking points? Biden´s administration is working on punishing and regulating (yes, regulation is meant to help Americans) corporations that price gouge. Please look into this. THIS is what´s largely responsible for inflation since the pandemic. Large corporations, including oil companies are profiteering off of Americans and blaming the pandemic. Look this up. Trickle down is actually Siphon Up. Itś called corporate welfare.

According to the House Budget Office:

• The average family of four is paying $13,717 per year or $1,143 per month more to purchase the same goods and services as in January 2021.

Biden's energy policies, his economic policies that destroyed many business, and his Inflation Reduction Act. which doubled inflation within 3 months, all contributed.  From the Association of Mature American Citizens:

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) keeps track of the cost of energy, food, and household goods, and their latest report from March 2021-22 shows significant increases over the last year, for example:

• Gasoline has increased 48% in the past 12 months.
• Used cars and trucks have increased 35% in the past 12 months.
• Energy has increased 13.5% in the past 12 months.
• Airfare rose 10.7% in March, after rising 5.2% in February.
• Grocery bills are up 10% in the past 12 months.
• Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs increased 13.7% in the past 12 months.
• Beef rose 16% in the past 12 months.
• Milk and dairy products increased 7% in the past 12 months.

Most importantly for most Americans, in 2020, the national gasoline average was $2.17 per gallon, and today, gas is up over $4 across the country. Clearly, these numbers don’t lie, despite the Orwellian rhetoric coming from the White House. 

Bidenomics has hurt Americans.  The cost of rent increased 40% under Biden.  Don't you care about poor people? 

Bogan

Openminded quote   While I agree that some books shouldn´t be shelved in school libraries at certain school ages, the outrage expressed about certain books is way out of line and being sensationalized. School boards, teachers, parents have been reviewing and challenging books for decades. 

They have, and what should and should not be in school libraries should be a topic discussed between parents and teachers.       But what is happening in the western world today, is that the Left dominated public service no longer thinks that it is the servants of the people, it thinks it is the rulers of the people.       To the educated elite Left, anyone who does not possess a university degree is just a prole who should do what their "betters" tell them to do and shu-t up.     So today in the USA especially, left wing teachers associations, full of childless people, are demanding that parents and grandparents (societies most socially responsible demographic) should just sh-up and accept whatever left wing propaganda that the Left wishes to indoctrinate their kids with.     Realization of that fact, even by traditional Democrat voters, is why Donald Trump will win the next Presidential election.      Parents and grandparents, especially from immigrant communities with very strong traditional views on marriage and sexuality, are incensed that Democrat aligned teachers are not only exposing their children to concepts which the parents most definitely do not want them exposed to, but are even calling them "domestic terrorists", and even calling in the FBI to have them arrested for voicing their objections are parent/teacher meetings.  

And "Openminded" wonders why Donald Trump is getting increasingly more popular, and he will win the next Presidential election? 

MayCaesar

Openminded said:

1. First, you seem to be hellbent on saying people that support AA & DEI policies believe their racism is good racism. Is this some kind of FOX News or Newsmax talking point? Could this be a gaslighting or projection technique that´s rampant amongst extreme right wingers since Trump has normalized this?

 Racism - You can´t yell ¨Racist ¨ to those who believe helping blacks is long overdue. How many years have African Americans been subjugated in America? How many years have they NOT been given the same opportunities as Whites? And let´s not mention the hangings, the beatings, the subjugations.  It wasn´t too long ago that blacks had to sit at the back of buses, couldn´t be seen with a white woman, could not use the bathrooms, drinking fountains of white Americans. Remember? Supporting DEI policies is not racism. Supporting marginalized people is meant to help them become educated and free. Ya know, the rights we were GIVEN?

There is a difference between supporting marginalized people - and supporting people who share some superficial characteristic (in this case the skin color) with those who were marginalized in the past. If I give $1,000 to a homeless person, I am clearly supporting him in the time of need. But what if I give $1,000 to someone whose great-grandfather was homeless, but who now is a millionaire living in a comfortable mansion in Beverly Hills? Completely different situation.

By explicitly supporting people with dark skin color by giving them opportunities that would otherwise be given to the most competent person with no skin color consideration, you are being explicitly racist (even if you believe that this form of racism is justified), and you are advantaging a huge and diverse group of people and disadvantaging another huge and diverse group of people. A "black" person from a prosperous family will be given an extra advantage in, say, the college enrollment process, while a "white" person from a poor family is going to be screwed.

I will also add that in my family it was considered rude to talk about people's skin color. I am shocked by the extent to which in the US terms "white people" and "black people" are normalized. To me that is an absolutely unacceptable way of characterizing someone. Really, of all things you can talk about, you choose that? How about characterizing people by the size of their anus instead? That would be progress, no?
If someone called me "white man" to my face, I would experience a strong urge to punch him in the face. I am not a "white man", I am a gentleman, you [insert your favorite curse].