If abortion is banned in America, are you (as a man who had sex with and impregnated a woman) fully

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

Im not sure there is a pro life person that thinks the man doesnt bear financial and parental responsibility for the child. We do preach responsibility for both parties.

Like Dave Chapelle pointed out, What you should be asking yourself as a pro choice individual, if the woman gets to has the right to kill it, shouldnt the man at least have a right to abandon it?

I whole heartedly disagree with that choice for either side.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Like Dave Chapelle pointed out, What you should be asking yourself as a pro choice individual, if the woman gets to has the right to kill it, shouldnt the man at least have a right to abandon it?

@MichaelElpers
Silly. The man has always had the right to abandon it.

Iḿ glad you agree that the man should bear responsibility from conception to adulthood. However, there are millions that won´t. I believe there will be legislation proposed for responsibility being placed on the man if abortion is in fact banned. I will go so far as saying that birth control will also eventually be placed on the male. So if you have young boys at home - teach them well. I fear that there will be many deaths of women if abortion is banned and women will be forced - as they were before the 70s - to perform their own abortions. We´ve said all we can say. I will never agree that a fetus is in fact a person before week 12. And abortion, when performed before week 12, will never be murder in my eyes and the majority of women. Never. I. Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester. 88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12. I will NEVER judge a woman for her decision no matter what stage she is in. I fear asking you if you think there should be an exception for rape and incest. If you believe there should be no exception, then you´re making a really strong case for WOMEN - A VIBRATOR IS YOUR ONLY OPTION.

John_C_87

@Openminded

I like Dave Chapelle he is funny….As the really stoned guy, sick and on medical marijuana,  practicing a 1st Amendment right to peacefully assemble and ask or write on a rolling paper sign, need light. Can I ask Dave are we talking about a child, or the American United States Constitution when we say women get to kill it and men get to abandon it?

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@MichaelElpers
Silly. The man has always had the right to abandon it.

Iḿ glad you agree that the man should bear responsibility from conception to adulthood. However, there are millions that won´t. I believe there will be legislation proposed for responsibility being placed on the man if abortion is in fact banned. I will go so far as saying that birth control will also eventually be placed on the male. So if you have young boys at home - teach them well. I fear that there will be many deaths of women if abortion is banned and women will be forced - as they were before the 70s - to perform their own abortions. We´ve said all we can say. I will never agree that a fetus is in fact a person before week 12. And abortion, when performed before week 12, will never be murder in my eyes and the majority of women. Never. I. Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester. 88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12. I will NEVER judge a woman for her decision no matter what stage she is in. I fear asking you if you think there should be an exception for rape and incest. If you believe there should be no exception, then you´re making a really strong case for WOMEN - A VIBRATOR IS YOUR ONLY OPTION.

So many false claims.

1) to go back - biologists say that life begins at fertilization.  Your refusal to accept science is your issue.  Please stop lying about this.

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins

2) You falsely said '88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12'.  That too is a lie.  65.4% of abortions are performed before week 9.  Only 22.9% of abortions happen between weeks 9 - 12 See

https://prolifeaction.org/fact/abortionsstagepregnancy/

3) You made the claim that there would be many deaths from backyard abortions.  This is not the case even the Washington Post was forced to admit:

The CDC began collecting data on abortion mortality in 1972, the year before Roe was decided. In 1972, the number of deaths in the United States from legal abortions was 24 and from illegal abortions 39, according to the CDC.

4) You said "Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester."

I have no idea if this is true or not.  That's not my point.  My observation is that you are suggesting that feeling pain is what makes someone valuable (ie - a person).  Tell me, Christopher Reeve was paralyzed from the neck down.  If you cut his heart out he would not have felt it.  Did that mean he was not a 'person'.  If he is a person and can't feel pain, then being able to feel pain is not what makes someone valuable.  

5) You said 'I believe there will be legislation proposed for responsibility being placed on the man if abortion is in fact banned.'  This is false as the law already requires men to take financial responsibility for not only their biological children, but it has also been applied if they had a role in raising a child who was not their biological child.  

John_C_87

@Openminded
Silly. The man has always had the right to abandon it.

Committing a wrong is not a right it is taking liberty...

Openminded

Argument Topic: So many false claims.

@just_sayin

I agree, agreed with this. Life begins at fertilization. Yes. I trust Science.

Openminded

Argument Topic: 2) You falsely said '88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12'. That too is a lie. 65.4% of abortions are performed before week 9. Only 22.9% of abortions happen between weeks 9 - 12 See

@just_sayin
2) You falsely said '88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12'.  That too is a lie.  65.4% of abortions are performed before week 9.  Only 22.9% of abortions happen between weeks 9 - 12 See  I cannot find my original numbers on this, but I´m careful to review and research before I post anything. I posted that about 65% are done between 9-12. And that 88% (add 65.4 and 22.9 and you get 88.1%) are performed between weeks 9-12. 

John_C_87

@Openminded

The grievance of Female specific amputation is that sexual assault and incest are attempted murder of a diplomat when a pregnancy occurs the women is an ambassador assigned by law of nature. As a state of the union with United States Constitutional Right. This presents several Constitutional issues both pro's and con's for and against women as they are created equal by their creator. In this circumstance the creator is the grievance of immigration into America that is created by birth all women face together.

There is something a women must understand the pregnancy is incidental the United State Constitutional Right between all women is immigration into a state of America. In basic all women who are fertile no matter the age creates an open border in every state of America. Women are trying to argue a criminal case as their own lawyer outside a court of law. Women are being directed to United States Constitutional Right even though it is not ratified yet. The American Constitution states all women may not yet be equal to each other, The United States Constitution states women may not yet be held as right before the United States Constitution of their own desire, and have been assigned a right as Presadera, The United States Constitution states United States Constitutional Right is to be held for posterity. Female-specific amputation is not abortion it is a United States Constitutional Right it is a part of a series of whole truths that can be assembled in a state of the union with established justice.

Openminded

Argument Topic: 3) You made the claim that there would be many deaths from backyard abortions. This is not the case even the Washington Post was forced to admit:

@just_sayin
39 lives lost is many

Openminded

Argument Topic: You said "Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester."

@just_sayin Yes, this is true. Many articles on this if you´re curious. The brain stem which is not fully developed until the third trimester is responsible for feelings and thoughts. In fact, the cerebral cortex, responsible for voluntary actions, thinking and feeling only begins working toward the end of pregnancy.@just_sayin

John_C_87

@Openminded

Here is where we are in American history. Abortion is Unamerican yet it has been sent by an Executive officer to every state in America. No women in America has ever had an abortion it was a lie that had been told to her she was instructed to say a female-specific amputation did not exist in the American United States Constitutional Right. Exhibit 1 as in defense of United States Constitutional law. Did you know or any female you have ever met know or told you  Female-specific amputation existed in the American United States Constitution? Did you know or understand it was simply not assembled as a state of the Union with established justice?

Openminded

Argument Topic: You said 'I believe there will be legislation proposed for responsibility being placed on the man if abortion is in fact banned.' This is false as the law already requires men to take financial responsibility for not only their biological children, but it has also been applied if they had a role in raising a child who was not their biological child.

@just_sayin
There is no law YET stating the father has to pay from conception. The GOP introduced a law, I believe, because they are planning for the ban on abortion. Good. But not for the Dads and not for the sons. This means if a man has casual sex - a one night stand - and the woman gets pregnant .... Hello Daddy from conception to adulthood he will be responsible for her financially and emotionally.

John_C_87

@Openminded

I agree, agreed with this. Life begins at fertilization. Yes. I trust Science.

That is not the truth. Science does not say life begins at fertilization people who interpret science data say life begins at conception while under oath. Are they liars? Do they know that are liars? It is unclear. Science states life is extended at fertilization and is started at the creation of the human egg by the women and the sperm by men. Why do the people interpreting the data say otherwise?

Science states that life beings at the creation of human egg by a woman, how science tells us life begins in a different place then what people claim in court of law while under oath, is how science collected and has learn how to save human eggs to treat infertility extending the life itself while making improvements on the extension of life at the same time.

Dee

What the ( mostly) religious zealots in the US never seem to realise is the fact that there is no association between abortions legality and its incidence.

The question is should abortion be legal and safe or illegal and dangerous,  the global abortion rate was lower where women lived under liberal law which is going to be impossible for women in the US if the idiotic cartoon character Trump wins a second term, women's rights are dictated in the US by mostly loudmouthed middle class religious bullies who worship  Trump and his thuggish circle of cohorts  and it looks like no change in sight. 

Dee

@John_C_87

I suggest you don't  it then John 

Barnardot

@just_sayin ; to go back - biologists say that life begins at fertilization. @Openminded

Here you go again with your extreme manipulating lieing ways again. There is nothing in that link what so ever that infers or says any such thing is there. 

Except that you choose to always quote articles that are pure spam or say nothing more than speculation but say nothing because they are editorials.

I bet you cant even lie straight in bed at night and who knows how to blazers you manage to sleep passing off that sort of crap.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ; to go back - biologists say that life begins at fertilization. @Openminded

Here you go again with your extreme manipulating lieing ways again. There is nothing in that link what so ever that infers or says any such thing is there. 

Except that you choose to always quote articles that are pure spam or say nothing more than speculation but say nothing because they are editorials.

I bet you cant even lie straight in bed at night and who knows how to blazers you manage to sleep passing off that sort of crap.

From   The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins 

Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view. 

Biology text books and medical sources also agree:

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."
From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55:

1. "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo.."

Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17:
"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43:

1. "It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2:
(updated, still the same)
"Human begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." "A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11:
"Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote."

Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2:
"[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being."

J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17:
"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8:
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998. pp. 1, 14:
"Human embryos begin development following the fusion of definitive male and female gametes during fertilization... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3:
"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."

E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii:
"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974:
"In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun."

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986:
"...but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before - at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by..."

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943:
"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3:
"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53:
"A zygote (a single fertilized egg cell) represents the onset of pregnancy and the genesis of new life."

Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99:
"Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex ...structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection."

Scarr, S., Weinberg, R.A., and Levine A., Understanding Development, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., 1986. page 86:
"The development of a new human being begins when a male's sperm pierces the cell membrane of a female's ovum, or egg....The villi become the placenta, which will nourish the developing infant for the next eight and a half months."

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419:
"The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual."

DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584:
"The zygote therefore contains a new arrangement of genes on the chromosomes never before duplicated in any other individual. The offspring destined to develop from the fertilized ovum will have a genetic constitution different from anyone else in the world."

In the Womb, National Geographic, 2005 (Prenatal Development Video):
"The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception, when an individual's unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated."

The Biology of Prenatal Development, National Geographic, 2006. (Video):
"Biologically speaking, human development begins at fertilization."

Encyclopedia Britannica, "Pregnancy," page 968, 15th Edition. Chicago 1974:
"A new individual is created when the elements of a potent sperm merge with those of a fertile ovum, or egg."

Leslie Brainerd Arey, "Developmental Anatomy" seventh edition (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55:
"The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization."

@Barnadot - Claiming facts aren't real isn't a good debate strategy.  

MichaelElpers

@Openminded
"Silly. The man has always had the right to abandon it."

Have you heard of child support?  The payments are required and if not paid you can go to jail.

"I fear that there will be many deaths of women if abortion is banned and women will be forced - as they were before the 70s - to perform their own abortions."

No one is forcing them to kill their offspring.  This is akin to someone claiming they need $10000 or they will kill themselves and blaiming others for not providing the $10000.

" I will never agree that a fetus is in fact a person before week 12. And abortion, when performed before week 12, will never be murder in my eyes and the majority of women. Never."

Ironic, your username is openminded but you wont let any potential argumentation convince you. 

"Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester. 88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12"

There are adults who cannot feel pain.  Are they not people?  Additionally you already stated you agree at any stage, so clearly you do not care if they can feel pain or not.

"I fear asking you if you think there should be an exception for rape and incest. If you believe there should be no exception"

This one is more difficult for me.  I havent come to a full conclusion yet.
My argument against it, is the fetus is a completely innocent party.  However wrong the rape would be, society wouldnt let the victim kill or rape another individual just because it may hypothetically help her mental/physical health.
I lean no, but would want the perp. to have a significant financial burden and if not provided a large subsidie from the government to fulfill all financial responsibilty for doctors appointment, as well as further education ect.  Essentially they should be minimally compensated as a full time care worker.

John_C_87

@Dee
The question is should abortion be legal and safe or illegal and dangerous.

Should Abortion be criminal law that is legal or illegal. Should a United State Constitutional Right equivalent to abortion be safe and legal?

John_C_87

@Openminded

There is no law YET stating the father has to pay from conception. The GOP introduced a law, I believe, because they are planning for the ban on abortion.

There is no "right as law" yet written stating the father has to pay from conception, there are states with such criminal law the law is just not written in those words. A group of people are planning on banning a criminal law in attempts to end a complex malpratice of law the grand old party is grand due to the fact it is a united state consitutional right that a voter is a republican.

John_C_87

What the ( mostly) religious zealots in the US never seem to realise is the fact that there is no association between abortions legality and its incidence.

The question is should abortion be legal and safe or illegal and dangerous,  the global abortion rate was lower where women lived under liberal law which is going to be impossible for women in the US if the idiotic cartoon character Trump wins a second term, women's rights are dictated in the US by mostly loudmouthed middle class religious bullies who worship  Trump and his thuggish circle of cohorts  and it looks like no change in sight. 

Executive officer #45 like many men have shown a lack of faithfulness to execute the office of President both in and out of Oval Office.  "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.."

Openminded

Argument Topic: Have you heard of child support? The payments are required and if not paid you can go to jail.

@MichaelElpers

Have you heard of child support?  The payments are required and if not paid you can go to jail.

Openminded said: I´ve attached a link from a PROlife site. Notice that 88% of abortions are performed before the 2nd trimester. For the majority of Americans this is well within the boundaries of what deems a fetus a viable, human life.

https://prolifeaction.org/fact/abortionsstagepregnancy/

Openminded: Specifically here is a common scenario I´m talking about: A young male at 14 years old has casual, consensual sex with a 14 year-old girl. She gets pregnant. She´s too young to have the baby. She believes an abortion is the only thing she can do. At 14, she´s still in school. Mom and Dad cannot take care of the baby. But abortion is illegal. The 14 year-old boy, under the new fetal personhood abortion law,  is immediately responsible for that child, financially, emotionally, from the point of conception into adulthood. And who do you think will pay financially? The parents of the young boy. That´s a tough start for that 14-year old boy isn´t it? Not to mention the girl. (And let´s hope he´s not having sex with another girl) As a father, what would you do for your son? Or do you believe that all people should abstain from sex until married? If so, I believe that to be fantastical, simplistic thinking and goes against all biology. The declaration that an embryo is ¨fetal personhood¨ will open up lots of issues. Perhaps an immigrant, not yet a citizen, who is pregnant with a ¨person¨ under law will be able to collect social services for said person as said person was born in the USA. As I said, hell hath no wrath than a woman whose rights have been stripped from her. If abortion is banned, You can bet that the male (remember a woman cannot have an unwanted pregnancy without the male) will be faced with much more responsibility as the woman´s rights have been stripped from her. And I do believe women WILL fight for men to participate in birth control. It´s 2023. Not 1950. Take it from me who worked in the school districts, young women are warriers.

Openminded said: I fear that there will be many deaths of women if abortion is banned and women will be forced - as they were before the 70s - to perform their own abortions."

MichaelElpers said: No one is forcing them to kill their offspring.  This is akin to someone claiming they need $10000 or they will kill themselves and blaiming others for not providing the $10000.

Openminded said: Equating $10,000 to a lifetime of $10Ks and responsibility for raising a child is a very weak analogy. 

Of course, no one is forcing them to ¨kill¨ (a term you use but it has not deemed settled yet in all states) their offspring. But they are, in fact, being forced to bear a child they can´t afford, being forced to be an adult before full maturity (the act of sex for both male and female, the biological need and urge for sex does not always reconcile with maturity or adulthood), and being forced to submit to draconian laws. Now, keep in mind that millions of Americans do not believe a 2-week embryo should be deemed ¨fetal personhood¨. Keep in mind that this tends to sound like fantastical, simplistic thinking of extreme religious people. Biology and Science tend to be more complicated.

Openminded said: " I will never agree that a fetus is in fact a person before week 12. And abortion, when performed before week 12, will never be murder in my eyes and the majority of women. Never."

MichaelElpers said: Ironic, your username is openminded but you wont let any potential argumentation convince you. 

Openminded said: I pride myself on being open minded. Because I simply do not agree with your argument does not make me closed minded. Iḿ on this site and willing to debate as I´m committed to learning. That is my goal.

Openminded said: "Science has proven that a fetus cannot feel pain before the third trimester. 88% of abortions are performed between week 9-12"

MichaelElper said: There are adults who cannot feel pain.  Are they not people?  Additionally you already stated you agree at any stage, so clearly you do not care if they can feel pain or not.

Openminded said: Again, we are talking about the term ¨fetal personhood¨. Which by the way is a term used to further leverage the ban on abortion. I do not believe a fetus reaches full ¨personhood¨ until at least the third trimester where the brainstem (responsible for consciousness, thinking and feeling) happens. I believe in a woman´s right to choose. Period. I would never judge anyone´s decision on abortion. I do not use myself as a yardstick to measure others.

Openminded said "I fear asking you if you think there should be an exception for rape and incest. If you believe there should be no exception"

MichaelElpers said: This one is more difficult for me.  I havent come to a full conclusion yet.
My argument against it, is the fetus is a completely innocent party.  However wrong the rape would be, society wouldnt let the victim kill or rape another individual just because it may hypothetically help her mental/physical health.
I lean no, but would want the perp. to have a significant financial burden and if not provided a large subsidie from the government to fulfill all financial responsibilty for doctors appointment, as well as further education ect.  Essentially they should be minimally compensated as a full time care worker.

Openminded said: If you´re still pondering that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest, then I truly wonder about the understanding and respect you have for women. There is not doubt the fetus is innocent. But herein lies the conundrum, what is not known and has not been proven: At what point is a fetus a viable human, conscious living being? You lean no on rape and incest as being an exception to rape? And you´re satisfied with that as long as the rapist (perp? Letś call him the rapist) to be financially responsible? How´s that going to work out when the rapist is jailed for life?

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

Regarding the 14 year olds:

If the pregnancy is deemed dangerous to the mother, the vast majority of prolifers are ok with abortion in life threatening scenarios.  Regarding it being tough on them, sorry. If a 14 year old steals, kills someone drunk driving ect actions have consequences. There is a such thing as adoption as well.

Regarding fetal personhood:
We are talking about personhood period. You cant just put fetal in front of it to justify the scenarios where youre in the uncomfortable scenario of removing adults from the term.  People that dont have pain receptors are people so the abiloty to feel pain cant be a defining factor.

Regarding 10000K analogy:
I wasnt comparing dollar figures what im saying is you dont avoid creating laws just because it makes it more dangerous for people willing to break them.  You going to remove door locks because it makes it harser for thiefs?

Regarding financial burden for rape:
I think I clearly stated the government should provide a significant financial subsidie to compensate for bringing the child to term. Free healthcare, schooling, ect.

You seem to make personhood a big deal and yet ive never seen you clearly state where you think that begins.  Additionally your inconsistent talking about brain functions but supporting no term limit abortion ban.

"I do not use myself as a yardstick to measure others."

Yes you do.  I assume you think murder and slavery is wrong.  Slaveowners didnt think slaves were people.  Under your premise what gives you the right to tell them who is a person or not?

John_C_87

@MichaelElpers
If the pregnancy is deemed dangerous to the mother, the vast majority of prolifers are ok with abortion in life threatening scenarios.  Regarding it being tough on them, sorry. If a 14 year old steals, kills someone drunk driving ect actions have consequences. There is a such thing as adoption as well.

This is a total disgrace how anyone would talk about, let alone allow and hold a criminal murder accusation over a 14 year old female for the rest of her life. There is always adoption are we now daring to add to the insult of breaking law of United States Constitutional rights by publicly claiming ownership of the child’s posterity as a forced delivery at risk of her very life. The law of nature which makes this female child of 14 an ambassador of America by United States Constitutional Right is not dependent on her being a female listed as Presadera or President, nor does it influence the united state with established justice to any citizen American Female. Female-specific amputation is a United States Constitutional Right and though not ratified it is a choice to a female and others about how a women is to be treated by law criminal or law of right.

just_sayin

@Openminded
Openminded said: If you´re still pondering that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest, then I truly wonder about the understanding and respect you have for women. There is not doubt the fetus is innocent. But herein lies the conundrum, what is not known and has not been proven: At what point is a fetus a viable human, conscious living being? You lean no on rape and incest as being an exception to rape? And you´re satisfied with that as long as the rapist (perp? Letś call him the rapist) to be financially responsible? How´s that going to work out when the rapist is jailed for life?

I disagree with you.  I do not think we should give the death penalty to an innocent child for the crimes of the guilty.  You however, think it is OK to kill the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.  Can you answer a question for me?  Do you believe that we should put to death people for the crime of rape?  If you do not think we should have the death penalty for rape, that would not only make you a hypocrite, because you are willing to kill the innocent child for someone else's crime of rape, it would make you next level evil.  

I am genuinely amazed at how oblivious you are to the evil you support.  You have supported racism in the form of AA and DEI policies.  You have claimed that human life does not begin at conception (see https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/169869/#Comment_169869)  which is anti-science to ease your conscience.  Now you say it is just to kill the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.  

A common flaw in your thinking is that you assume only the side you support has a point.  You have correctly pointed out that it is a great burden to demand that a woman carry to term a child borne out of rape.  This is definitely an extreme request that can bring great harm to the woman.  No doubt.  But you ignore, the greater harm done to the child, as she is killed for a crime she did not commit.  The harm done to her is not just for a few months - her entire life is stolen from her.  Instead you ignore how she is harmed, like how you ignore how Asian students cheated out of going to schools that they are more qualified for than students you would put in.  

So tell me, do you support the death penalty for rape, or do you reserve that only for innocent children?

John_C_87

@just_sayin
I disagree with you.  I do not think we should give the death penalty to an innocent child for the crimes of the guilty

We are abusing a point of criminal law as the child cannot be taken to court when charged with attempted murder of the mother. The child is presumed innocent by criminal law but is breaking the mother’s United State Constitutional Right the mother does not beak the child constitutional right to trial, the law of nature works against the child. The mother is by creation of a Constitutional justice system the ambassador of the child and there is absolutely no testimony from a medical professional to contradict that fact. The wonder of when life begins does not answer the question of who is the constitutional ambassador it is misdirection from whole truth. It is not a point of who has been granted the liberty of the greatest education it is about who can make the most perfect connection to established justice on the principle in question. The RIGHT use of lethal force.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

By accepted science and the law, a person only exists when the pregnancy is completed with a delivered, fully separated, live human. A public pronouncement that “abortion is murder” is wrong, is a purposeful deceitful lie. As such it must be called out loudly and publicly for the falsehood that it is

Openminded

Argument Topic: Regarding the 14 year olds: If the pregnancy is deemed dangerous to the mother, the vast majority of prolifers are ok with abortion in life threatening scenarios. Regarding it being tough on them, sorry. If a 14 year old steals, kills someone drunk driving ect actions have consequences. There is a such thing as adoption as well.

@MichaelElpers
Regarding the 14 year olds:

The vast majority are ok with abortion if it threatens a child´s life?  Please check the link out and this will likely increase. States that ban abortion with NO exceptions for rape or incest: Alabama, Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas.  If you were a woman, this would scare the bejesus out of you. Adoption? Have you ever carried and cared for a baby in your womb? Have you given consideration to the trauma a young girl suffers carrying a baby to full term, then handing it over after birth? 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/31/us/abortion-access-restrictions-bans-us/index.html

Openminded

Argument Topic: Regarding fetal personhood: We are talking about personhood period. You cant just put fetal in front of it to justify the scenarios where youre in the uncomfortable scenario of removing adults from the term.  People that dont have pain receptors are people so the abiloty to feel pain cant be a defining factor. As you can´t just put the word ¨personhood" in front of a fetus to justify your scenario. 

@MichaelElpers

As you can´t just put the word ¨personhood" in front of a fetus with the potential to be a person to justify your scenario. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: Regarding 10000K analogy: I wasnt comparing dollar figures what im saying is you dont avoid creating laws just because it makes it more dangerous for people willing to break them. You going to remove door locks because it makes it harser for thiefs?

@MichaelElpers
I´m not sure how to answer this. It´s an ugly sentiment. 

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

No exception for rape and incest doesnt mean no exception for dangers to mother.

How is it an ugly semtiment.  Do ypu think allowing self defense is an ugly sentiment for those trying to commit assualt?

Openminded

Argument Topic: Regarding financial burden for rape: I think I clearly stated the government should provide a significant financial subsidie to compensate for bringing the child to term. Free healthcare, schooling, ect.

@MichaelElpers
Great that we agree the male must bear half the financial burden also. But I can´t help wonder if this will be a dead-on-arrival bill. As a voter, are you prepared to vote for government subsidies to be given to the irresponsible parents unprepared for parenthood? Not sure this will work. Do you remember the birth control debacle? Republicans do not want birth control even covered. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: You seem to make personhood a big deal and yet ive never seen you clearly state where you think that begins. Additionally your inconsistent talking about brain functions but supporting no term limit abortion ban.

@MichaelElpers
I actually have stated clearly where I believe a fetus reaches ¨personhood¨ status. It is not until the third trimester where the brainwaves, heartbeat, consciousness are fully functioning. Science is what I trust to be the most reliable data. I will never assume that I´m smarter than the medical community. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: "I do not use myself as a yardstick to measure others." Yes you do. I assume you think murder and slavery is wrong. Slaveowners didnt think slaves were people. Under your premise what gives you the right to tell them who is a person or not?

@MichaelElpers
I try not to place my beliefs onto others. Yes, murder and slavery are wrong. Are you still comparing a potential life to an existing one?

John_C_87

By accepted science and the law, a person only exists when the pregnancy is completed with a delivered, fully separated, live human. A public pronouncement that “abortion is murder” is wrong, is a purposeful deceitful lie. As such it must be called out loudly and publicly for the falsehood that it is.

By interpritation of science and criminal law a person only exists when prenanacy become birth then immigration. Abortion is a degree of murder written as criminal law. Whereas female-specific amputation is a law of nature which is not a written as a degree of murder and found in a United State of Consitutional Right. Which is law in America.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Additionally your inconsistent talking about brain functions but supporting no term limit abortion ban.

@MichaelElpers
I believe, as most in the medical community do since the fetus is still a developing, potential human life in the first and second trimester. I believe before Roe V. Wade was stripped, abortion was legal up to 24 weeks. I would be okay with a 20-week ban.

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

I never asked for subsidies for irresponsible parents.  Those parents should be prosecuted for neglect.
I asked for subsidies for mothers who conceived via rape as they had no decision in the process.
Im not sure why birth control should be subsidized?  Do we subsidize other activities i want to participate in? Netflix? Sports?

You state third trimester and yet you stated you would not judge a third trimester abortion.  Inconsistent.
What is fully functioning brainwaves and consciousness?  The human brain isnt fully developed until our 20s.  Is someone knockout no longer a person?  They lost consciousness.

"I try not to place my beliefs onto others. Yes, murder and slavery are wrong. Are you still comparing a potential life to an existing one?"

I dont consider the fetus a potential life it is clearly alive and you are missing the point again.
You are also making determinations on what is a person and what is not.  Therefore you are placing your beliefs onto others.
In deciding slavery is wrong you arr telling the slave owners that other races are people deserving of rights.
Im doing no different for a fetus.

John_C_87

@Openminded

As you can´t just put the word ¨personhood" in front of a fetus with the potential to be a person to justify your scenario. 

Obviously, they can and did. They ae however breaking our United States Constitutional Right. By our I mean men. women, and the children only a women may carry as posterity. A woman aborts or proceeds with a female-specific amputation a women can never female-specific amputate an abortion or order the amputation from a doctor. It is a United State made with women, between women, for women. A women can still choose the word abortion over the three words of female-specific amputation. Women should be legally advised that abortion however is a degree of murder when making such a choice in public. They are not told this fact.

John_C_87

@Openminded
The vast majority are ok with abortion if it threatens a child´s life?
The vast majority will not be there with her throughout a life time as the degree of murder looms over her head in a court of criminal law.

John_C_87

Abortion needs a Constitutional update........after the update in may be necessary to restart your United States Constitutional Right female-specific amputation.

Openminded

Argument Topic: I never asked for subsidies for irresponsible parents. Those parents should be prosecuted for neglect. I asked for subsidies for mothers who conceived via rape as they had no decision in the process. Im not sure why birth control should be subsidized? Do we subsidize other activities i want to participate in? Netflix? Sports?

@MichaelElpers
Well, women aren´t quite sure why Viagra is government subsidized either. Thereś one for you to look up.
There were 133,000 rapes in 2022 in the US. And many rapes are not reported. And yes, men are raped also but obviously a moot issue. Do you really believe a Republican Congress will pass a bill (if abortion is banned) to allow subsidizing monetarily the mother (and involved father hopefully) for the child from conception to 18 years?

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

I would agree with you on viagra if it is subsidized.

I have no idea what republicans will or wont do.  Im arguing what i think is the best option.
Again i dont agree with subsidizing accidents, those fall on the responsible parties.  I would want to subsidize mothers carrying babies to term that were raped.  I have full empathy for them.

ZeusAres42

MichaelElpers said:

@Openminded

Im not sure there is a pro life person that thinks the man doesnt bear financial and parental responsibility for the child. We do preach responsibility for both parties.

Like Dave Chapelle pointed out, What you should be asking yourself as a pro choice individual, if the woman gets to has the right to kill it, shouldnt the man at least have a right to abandon it?

I whole heartedly disagree with that choice for either side.

@MichaelElpers

The comparison between a woman's right to choose an abortion and a man's right to abandon a child is fundamentally flawed. It overlooks the complexities of abortion, which often involves difficult decisions made in the context of a range of personal, health, and socio-economic factors. The decision to have an abortion is not simply a matter of choice in the way the term is casually used; it's about bodily autonomy, ethical considerations, and often, survival and well-being.

On the other hand, the abandonment of a child by a father is a failure to take responsibility for a dependent life that is already existing and interacting in the world. These situations are not equivalent either in their nature or in their impact on society and individuals.

Furthermore, the pro-choice stance is about more than the termination of pregnancy; it's about the right to make informed decisions about one's own body and life circumstances, a principle that extends beyond the issue of abortion and encompasses a range of reproductive rights and health issues.

MichaelElpers

@ZeusAres42

"On the other hand, the abandonment of a child by a father is a failure to take responsibility for a dependent life that is already existing and interacting in the world"

What if he chooses to abandon the child while they are in the womb?  The truth is its the same person while in the womb or out.  Does the man get no reproductive rights or choice of life circumstance?

"it's about the right to make informed decisions about one's own body and life circumstances"

I dont buy that most women would be satisfied without the termination.  If we had artificial wombs that allowed removal of the pregnancy while keeping the fetus alive, most would not accept the responsibility of needing to take care of the child.  Which again is what you are expecting men to do.

I respect people ls decisions to make life decisions just not ones that involve ruining the lives of others.  Which is why stealing is wrong.

MayCaesar

As I see it, if it got to the point where someone is pregnant and does not want a child, someone made a huge blunder somewhere along the way. I certainly would not put myself in such a position: I have a brain, know the potential consequences of sex, and will be careful about engaging in it with someone who I do not want to raise children with. So, on the personal level, any possible ban on abortion would not affect me.

I do think that preventing a woman from exerting full control over her body is an extremely tyrannical act in itself, but it is the kind of tyrannical act that is very easy to not be affected by no matter who you are. It is much like heroin: awful drug if you consume it, non-issue if you do not. It is not like some of the other forms of tyranny, such as punishing people for criticizing the government, which has very direct implications on everyone's life.
Similarly, I think that preventing a man from simply walking out of potential fatherhood would be a tyrannical act, also one that is very easy to not be affected by, but tyrannical nonetheless.

Just like with many other things, I do not think that the government should have a role in this. If a woman aborts the child, or if a man walks away from parenthood, the individual members of society are free to criticize them and not associate with them. At no point should a police officer show up at either person's doorstep.

Openminded

Argument Topic: No exception for rape and incest doesnt mean no exception for dangers to mother. How is it an ugly semtiment. Do ypu think allowing self defense is an ugly sentiment for those trying to commit assualt?

@MichaelElpers

Dangers to the mother? What do you think rape and incest are?

John_C_87

What do you think rape and incest are
They are a degrees of attempted murder with a higher criminal conviction rate.

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

Im not sure what you mean.  I dont know any laws that prevent abortion when doctor determines the life of the mother is at risk.

John_C_87

@MichaelElpers

Im not sure what you mean.  I dont know any laws that prevent abortion when doctor determines the life of the mother is at risk.

You do not know or do not recognize any law any components of a law not yet in united state to make it appear more obvious? Abortion itself places both women and men in danger for their lives. That includes the life of the mother. It places them in danger well past the birth of any child created by pregnancy or artificial medical means. Do you know all of the United States Constitutional Rights there are?

I dont know any laws that prevent abortion when doctor determines the life of the mother is at risk

A doctor cannot knowingly place a patient in danger of losing their life can they. Yet it happens, even more when the practice is out of their educational background of the medical doctor and goes into the practice of law, or United States Constitutional Right. This is why a doctor can only perform a female specific amputation in America by United States Constitutional Right. By the way a Declaration of Independence states all men in America are created equal by their creator. It does not dictate how it happens in the most perfect way that is left up to we the people.

Openminded

Argument Topic: What the ( mostly) religious zealots in the US never seem to realise is the fact that there is no association between abortions legality and its incidence.

@Dee

It is true that abortion, whether legal or illegal, will not change the incidence rates. Until recently (with the new bans on abortions) and since the 1980s, abortions have actually been declining steadily.

I find it particularly offensive when men pontificate on abortion and pit the fetus against the ¨murdering¨ mother. Women need to bring men into the discussion of abortion.  After all, there are no unwanted pregnancies without a man´s contribution. What will the actual outcome be if abortion is banned in America? Will more responsibility be placed on men? Will a man be held to not only financially providing for the baby, but emotionally and parentally from conception into adulthood? Will birth control responsibility be placed on men? Okay, let's get back to fatherhood complementing motherhood. We need more accountability from the men. And it starts by expecting more, legally and socially, from our men. 

And the orange man....ironically, he´s a bad seed that should never have fertilized.
The wheels of justice turn slowly but grind exceedingly fine. Letś HOPE for a better America.