What About DEI is Racist?

Dreamer

We need to break vicious stereotypes.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/19/956015308/you-cant-treat-if-you-cant-empathize-black-doctors-tackle-vaccine-hesitancy

Myths created by slave-owners which are still circulating.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

We need to break vicious stereotypes.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/19/956015308/you-cant-treat-if-you-cant-empathize-black-doctors-tackle-vaccine-hesitancy

Myths created by slave-owners which are still circulating.

@Dreamer, seems like those racist Democrat slave-owners are still at it today.  A popular fallacy is that health disparities between Black and white are examples of racism in the system.  Yet,  a 2019 paper in the Annals of Family Medicine found that “social and behavioral factors” and not “deficiencies in health care access or delivery” are the main drivers of life expectancy disparities in the United States.

When leftists cry 'racism' rather than acknowledging other behavioral differences, not only do they falsely accuse others of racism, but they divert attention from real causes of the disparities.  Thanks for proving my point.  

MichaelElpers

@just_sayin

Anything that focuses on creating equity among race will almost always be racist because race is the primary factor outweighing all others.

If race doesnt matter why are we trying to create equity amongst races.  We dont do that for qualities that dont matter.  Lets treat race like nose size.  No one cares

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;DEI policies are well intentioned and seek to help groups that they feel have been overlooked, 

I think you will find thats not the case. The groups they include are far from over looked. These groups are unfarely vilified and attacked by extreme religious groups. For example gays and unwed moms and people wanting abortions and people wanting to snuff them selves and even other religious groups and races. What they want to achieve is a flat playing field free from the opression and attacks by others who think that every one should be the same as them.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;DEI policies are well intentioned and seek to help groups that they feel have been overlooked, 

I think you will find thats not the case. The groups they include are far from over looked. These groups are unfarely vilified and attacked by extreme religious groups. For example gays and unwed moms and people wanting abortions and people wanting to snuff them selves and even other religious groups and races. What they want to achieve is a flat playing field free from the opression and attacks by others who think that every one should be the same as them.

Why is it not surprising that you engaged in deflection rather than addressing the fact that DEI policies discriminate against people based on their race in college admissions, hiring, promotions, benefits, and being awarded grants and contracts.  It is racist to claim that you can know someone's intentions, implicit biases, privileges, guilt, oppressor/victim status, or fragility just by knowing their race.  

You proved my point.  You deflected to the totem pole of intersectionality and sought to put down religious people whom you place further down the totem pole.  However, you failed to observe that DEI policies violate their rights too.  Forcing someone of faith to lie and use pronouns they believe to be a lie is a violation of both their free speech rights and their first amendment religious freedoms. 

DEI does not seek a fair playing field, if that were true they would support merit.  They seek to discriminate.  This is unjust.  

Factfinder

 What stereotypes@Dreamer?  I don't deny they exist, just want to know what you're referring to. 

Bogan

DEI makes a lot of sense, and it could be considered a morally correct position, provided that the premise upon which it is based, that all races are equal, is valid.   But it is invalid.    Supporters of DEI claim that all races are equal.     So, if certain “privileged” ethnicities always climb to the top of well paying, high status leadership positions, then this “proves” that something is fundamentally wrong with white western society.     This society must be racist, and if the advocates of DEI can not find any overt racism in modern western society to point to, then this racism must be “unconscious racism.”  

 Based upon this false premise, DEI advocates claim that the only way that always dysfunctional minorities can take their rightful place in leadership positions, is for governments departments and private corporations to maintain racial, gender, and sexual orientation quotas in the hiring of staff, especially senior staff.  The advocates of DEI claim that this is not really racism, for two reasons.   The first is, that DEI advocates really do believe that only white people can be racist, which is a racist concept in itself.   The second is, that since some minorities are obviously under represented in senior leadership positions, then this “proves” that the only explanation is white racism and discrimination, so only by indulging in reverse racism can “progressive” people like themselves rectify this unacceptable situation. 

 Unfortunately for the DEI exponents, the idea of racial, gender, and sexual orientation quotas is not working out real well.     Powerful and once profitable US corporations are finding out the hard way that to go woke, is to go broke.    Then along came the diversity hire of “non binary” luggage stealing Sam Brinton, who was hired by the Biden administration to appeal to the gender dysphoria vote.    His arrest as a senior US official for being a serial luggage thief made the USA the laughing stock of the world.        Next came diversity hire Harvard Dean Claudine Gay, who is so woke that she can not figure out that Harvard students inside the hallowed halls of Harvard calling for the extermination of all Jews, could be considered in any way unacceptable behaviour.  

MayCaesar

The appeal of diversity has always been that people from different backgrounds bring different things to the table. For instance, it is desirable for an American high-tech company to hire a Chinese programmer because the programming culture in China is very different from that in the US, and not only will the company gain a person with unique skills and vision, but it also will have a point of connection to the Chinese economy. American PhD programs go out of their way to attract international students, because every student from a different country brings insights and ways of thinking that are hard to come by here in the US.

I fail to see how filling "racial quotas" serves this purpose. The requirement that X% of the hires in the company are Asian, for instance, is the opposite of diversity: it is not about attracting people with unique insights and backgrounds, but about attracting people with very expected facial structures. How the shape of someone's eyes is going to translate to efficiency of project development and contribute to healthiness of the work environment is everybody's guess.

I am all for being surrounded by people from different walks of life and different experiences than mine. I fail to see the appeal of being surrounded by people of particular skin colors or eye shapes. If the most interesting thing about you is the color of your skin, then please remove your boring self from my presence...

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

So true. When ever people are compelled the very act of said compulsion is corrupted by it's forceful nature from the get go. We need to look past ones pigmentation the same way we do what kind of cereal they like in the morning. And be like: WHO CARES!

just_sayin

Bogan said:

DEI makes a lot of sense, and it could be considered a morally correct position, provided that the premise upon which it is based, that all races are equal, is valid.   But it is invalid.    Supporters of DEI claim that all races are equal.     So, if certain “privileged” ethnicities always climb to the top of well paying, high status leadership positions, then this “proves” that something is fundamentally wrong with white western society.     This society must be racist, and if the advocates of DEI can not find any overt racism in modern western society to point to, then this racism must be “unconscious racism.”  

 Based upon this false premise, DEI advocates claim that the only way that always dysfunctional minorities can take their rightful place in leadership positions, is for governments departments and private corporations to maintain racial, gender, and sexual orientation quotas in the hiring of staff, especially senior staff.  The advocates of DEI claim that this is not really racism, for two reasons.   The first is, that DEI advocates really do believe that only white people can be racist, which is a racist concept in itself.   The second is, that since some minorities are obviously under represented in senior leadership positions, then this “proves” that the only explanation is white racism and discrimination, so only by indulging in reverse racism can “progressive” people like themselves rectify this unacceptable situation. 

 Unfortunately for the DEI exponents, the idea of racial, gender, and sexual orientation quotas is not working out real well.     Powerful and once profitable US corporations are finding out the hard way that to go woke, is to go broke.    Then along came the diversity hire of “non binary” luggage stealing Sam Brinton, who was hired by the Biden administration to appeal to the gender dysphoria vote.    His arrest as a senior US official for being a serial luggage thief made the USA the laughing stock of the world.        Next came diversity hire Harvard Dean Claudine Gay, who is so woke that she can not figure out that Harvard students inside the hallowed halls of Harvard calling for the extermination of all Jews, could be considered in any way unacceptable behaviour.  

I disagree with you.  the racism of DEI is not the answer - its the problem.  Let's address just one issue - lower minority educational obtainment.  If you want to increase it you have to be honest about the causes of it.  Thomas Sowell overwhelmingly showed that KIPP charter schools that were meeting in the same buildings as competing public schools raise the percentage of kids on grade significantly.  In some instances the public school had only 15% of kids on grade level, while the charter school, which had a higher percentage of poor minority students had 85% of kids on grade level.  The issue was not race - but how the schools were run and a belief that personal choices make a difference.  

DEI initiatives do not increase Black kids test scores.  It seems to me, if you want more Black college students in STEM that you will need to start in elementary schools.  Many urban schools do not even offer the advanced math and science classes that are prerequisites for STEM degrees.  School choice can help rescue minority children trapped in bad public schools.  Changes in methodology and focus have been shown to dramatic differences, as evidenced by KIPP schools success.  

If you go into the whitest parts of the US, the Appalachian mountains where 98% of students are white, you will find the students there have just as low of education success as many urban minority schools.  Many of the issues are the same - high levels of single parent homes, poverty, low educational expectations, etc.  I do not think the issue is about race.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   I disagree with you.  the racism of DEI is not the answer - its the problem. 

 It is neither the problem nor the answer.     There are only two credible explanations for why some ethnic groups are always dysfunctional within advanced western societies.    If you refuse to admit that different races have different physical, mental, and personality abilities, then you are stuck with the very “explanation” which posits that the unequal outcomes of different races, can only be attributed to “unconscious” racism and discrimination.     Therefore, DEI, which simply tries to remedy this supposedly unacceptable situation, by doing a bit of reverse racism, is morally quite reasonable.    You are opposing the supposed remedy to unequal outcomes, even though you disagree with the ideology which is the foundation of it. 

 

Just-sayin quote        Let's address just one issue - lower minority educational obtainment. 

I have already addressed this issue with you at least twice previously.   I have explained to you how at the beginning of the 20th century, there was probably not a single psychologist who thought that the already well known gap between white and black IQ’s could not be remedied by education.    I have already explained to you about the USA’s state and Federal government’s “Headstart” programs which were supposedly going to increase black IQ’s through well funded education programs instituted by young, idealist quality teachers.      I have already explained to you how every one of these programs failed.  I have already explained to you how at least one of these programs, which was dubbed “the miracle of Milwaukee” was the subject of a massive fraud from which the perpetrator went to jail.    I have already explained to you how the umpire (Educational Psychologist Arthur Jenson) who was hired by the US Federal government  to judge the effectiveness of these programs concluded that they had all failed. and that the reason MIGHT HAVE BEEN genetic.     For that, he was hounded out of his university, had to change his address, and was given personal security to stop wild eyed ideologues from physically attacking him.

 I have already explained to you how the integration of black and white schools would also improve black educational outcomes.   For the most part, it did not.     I have already explained to you that IQ is measurable and that cognitive metricians have found a roughly 15 point gap between the bell curves of white US people and African US people.   

 Here in Australia, the state of the Northern Territory wastes 66% of it’s education budget to educate 33% of that state’s primary and high school students who “identify” as “aboriginal? For a 90% failure in NAPLAN testing.   

 You and Thomas Sowell’s little theory does not hold water.    I like Mr Sowell, and a lot of what he says is true.    But he is spinning the narrative on this subject, and my guess is he already knows that he is wrong.     But his credibility as a black person advocating to improve the life of US blacks means that he has to tell a few porky pies to stay relevant. 

 

Just-sayin quote         If you want to increase it you have to be honest about the causes of it.  Thomas Sowell overwhelmingly showed that KIPP charter schools that were meeting in the same buildings as competing public schools raise the percentage of kids on grade significantly.  In some instances the public school had only 15% of kids on grade level, while the charter school, which had a higher percentage of poor minority students had 85% of kids on grade level.  The issue was not race - but how the schools were run and a belief that personal choices make a difference.  

 Sounds like another “miracle in Milwaukee” scenario to me.   The only difference is that Arthur Jenson is deceased, and anybody who would dare to judge these programs, and did not come out with what the woke expects them to say, knows what happened to Arthur Jenson.     In such a scenario, you can bet that whoever judged this outcome was carefully chosen by the educational elitists to find the outcome they wanted.

 

Just-sayin quote       DEI initiatives do not increase Black kids test scores. 

Of course they do not.    Because certain ethnicities have a lower bell curve of IQ than more successful ethnicities. 

 

Just sayin quote    It seems to me, if you want more Black college students in STEM that you will need to start in elementary schools. 

But it has never worked.    This thinking is like advocating for socialism.  How many times does a proposal need to fail before well meaning people of zeal, like yourself, realise that their most cherished ideals are simply an illusion?      News flash!    The universe was not created in six days.    The earth is not flat, no matter what the bible says.     Jonah did not live inside of a whale.   Like the Muslims, it is time for well intentioned Christians to update your ideology. 

 

Just sayin quote      Many urban schools do not even offer the advanced math and science classes that are prerequisites for STEM degrees. 

Of course they don’t.   Regardless of what the racial equality absolutists publicly declare, they already know that the people that they are supposedly championing are a bunch of badly behaved dummies, who not only do not even want to go to school, but simply can not handle such subjects as mathematics.

  

Just-sayin quote       School choice can help rescue minority children trapped in bad public schools.  Changes in methodology and focus have been shown to dramatic differences, as evidenced by KIPP schools success.  

 If that was at all possible, and given the serious ramifications of ignoring this supposed truism, then why did the various US state and federal governments give up on the “Headstart” programs?    Do you think that the answer could be, that despite publicly claiming that all races are equal, that that they all agreed with Jenson and the cognitive metricians, that some races are just not smart enough?     It was another waste of money.  

 

Just-sayin quote      If you go into the whitest parts of the US, the Appalachian mountains where 98% of students are white, you will find the students there have just as low of education success as many urban minority schools.  Many of the issues are the same - high levels of single parent homes, poverty, low educational expectations, etc.  I do not think the issue is about race.  

 (Groan).    I have already addressed this subject previously.    Why do I need to go over the same grounds that I have already explained to you?     Okay, I will explain it to you again for the second, and the last time.      The only thing that I know about “Appalachia” came from a book on criminology which used “Appalachia” as an example of how poverty and crime are not linked.     The book said that pre the curse of Methamphetamine, “Appalachia” had the lowest incarceration rate and the lowest number of police per head of population as the rest of the USA.      The point it made is that even poor people can have good values and be more or less law abiding.    Poverty did not necessarily cause crime. 

 Next, within even racially pure populations, the same “bell curves” of IQ exist.       The poorest people are almost always the people with the lowest IQ’s.    The working class have average IQ’s, and the managerial class have higher IQ’s.     Here in NSW, within the precincts of the city of Sydney, here are suburbs full of white low IQ white people where any sane person should keep right out of.    It has been jokingly claimed that the Australian SAS goes into the white suburb of Claymore to do it’s war training.    The idea that everyone in any society is equal in every way with the upper classes, was a Socialist idea that did not work.   If Appalachia” is full of poor people, it could be related to particular circumstances like a lack of resources or jobs.     But one suspects that your own story is a case in point.  Smart people are upwardly mobile, and you are smart, and so you got the hell out of ‘Appalachia” leaving behind the lower IQ members of your community.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;If you refuse to admit that different races have different physical, mental, and personality abilities

You mean if people refuse to go along with your totally sick view of the world.

just_sayin

@Bogan

 It is neither the problem nor the answer.     There are only two credible explanations for why some ethnic groups are always dysfunctional within advanced western societies.    If you refuse to admit that different races have different physical, mental, and personality abilities, then you are stuck with the very “explanation” which posits that the unequal outcomes of different races, can only be attributed to “unconscious” racism and discrimination.     Therefore, DEI, which simply tries to remedy this supposedly unacceptable situation, by doing a bit of reverse racism, is morally quite reasonable.    You are opposing the supposed remedy to unequal outcomes, even though you disagree with the ideology which is the foundation of it. 

First, you need to prove that their genes are different and that these genes control intelligence.  Epigenetic information of the genes suggests that you are wrong and that intelligence differences are not from chromosome differences.  In fact, the epigenetic evidence suggests the chromosomes are the same.  

Secondly, you have made the classic SJW mistake of thinking the only possible causes are racism or chromosomes.  Are you now admitting that SJWs are as smart as you?  You assumed difference were based either on race or chromosomes, when many factors impact outcomes - such as time spent studying, home influences such as coming from a single parent family, attitudes towards education, truancy, quality of education, and many more.  

I have already addressed this issue with you at least twice previously. 

And I blistered your hinny with evidence from a hundred years of IQ tests that you were wrong and that they did not measure what you thought.  I showed evidence that adopted Black kids raised by white parents scored much higher on IQ tests.  I went over several of the IQ test questions which were questionable such as what makes of little know car brands where made in Ohio towns.  Why you assumed Black children would know this is beyond me.  I pointed out to you the racist and white supremacist history of these Democrat processive ideas and traced them through Woodrow Wilson and the elites at Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.  Bogie, do you really want to be associated with the racism of progressive Democrats?

Sounds like another “miracle in Milwaukee” scenario to me.

Thomas Sowell's book, Charter Schools and Their Enemies, focuses on New York City Charter Schools.  Like almost all other of his books, there are hundreds of pages of documentation.  The fact is NYC is trying to get rid of the very Charter Schools that are the only public schools succeeding in many minority neighborhoods in NYC.  

If that was at all possible, and given the serious ramifications of ignoring this supposed truism, then why did the various US state and federal governments give up on the “Headstart” programs? 

I don't think leftists gave up on Headstart programs.  But you are right that they do not improve test scores and that all benefits of the programs are lost by 3rd grade according to the studies.  Let's be honest, Headstart is more about providing some government funded childcare, than actual focused academic instruction.  

The only thing that I know about “Appalachia” came from a book on criminology which used “Appalachia” as an example of how poverty and crime are not linked.     The book said that pre the curse of Methamphetamine, “Appalachia” had the lowest incarceration rate and the lowest number of police per head of population as the rest of the USA. 

So you admit a social issue, methamphetamine, impacted the conduct of Appalachian people.  That's a start.  As an Appalachian American, I will speak in generalities about my people.  There are historical studies that show Appalachian Americans overreact to any perceived slights - studies were done on descendants of the Hatfields and the McCoys, or as I call them 'my cousins'.   I would much rather walk the streets of LA, Chicago, Baltimore, DC or many a 3rd world country at night, than to walk through the hollers of Appalachia. Like they say "when you hear the banjo music, its too late."

If Appalachia” is full of poor people, it could be related to particular circumstances like a lack of resources or jobs.

That is true, and I hope you can see this for other groups as well.  In England, many of the lower class are whites.  They have poorer test scores and poorer educational outcomes - just like in Appalachia.  Whereas many Blacks in England, come from elsewhere, and are better off on average economically.  They have better test scores than these poor white people.  If it is all about the genes, then how can that be?  May be particular circumstances do matter.

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   First, you need to prove that their genes are different and that these genes control intelligence. 

 If you are going to demand a standard of proof from me that you know I can not comply with, then I can do the same thing to you.      If you claim that all races are equal, except for physical appearance and skin colour, then where is your genetic proof that this is so?

 

Just-sayin quote      Epigenetic information of the genes suggests that you are wrong and that intelligence differences are not from chromosome differences.  In fact, the epigenetic evidence suggests the chromosomes are the same.  

 Then why did James Watson. Nobel Laureate, co-discoverer of the double helix structure of DNA, and head of the Human Genome Project, get sacked from his job and got thrown out of his university. for simply saying to a journalist that black African people are not very intelligent?      It is obviously a very dangerous path for even an eminent scientist like Watson to take to take to submit “epigenetic information” which contradicts our new western ideological position that all races are equal.    Which is why international genetic conferences are today held in camera with the press pointedly excluded.     I submit that what we are seeing today, is exactly the same situation that happened 600 years ago, when every astronomer knew that the the earth was not the centre of the universe, but knew that expressing that would get them burned at the stake.     So they simply exchanged letters about their discoveries among themselves, and let the church and the people they were hoodwinking, to wallow in their own blissful  ignorance.

 

Just-sayin quote      Secondly, you have made the classic SJW mistake of thinking the only possible causes are racism or chromosomes. 

Excuse me?    I have asked you to submit a third possibility as to why some ethnic minorities are always dysfunctional, but you can’t think one up.      So, until you can manage that impossible feat, there are only two explanations.     Either these people are victims of white racism and discrimination, or collectively, they are not as intelligent as whites and Asians.

 

Just-sayin quote      Are you now admitting that SJWs are as smart as you? 

No, I regard SJW’s as low IQ dummies.   Or, if they do have brains, as immature young people from privileged families who have a compulsive psychological need to need to self flagellate for their own families privilege.     As well as a deep psychological need to fit in with the young woke crowd that they consider to be their social equivalents.       Their position is a form of social snobbery which has become a lot more important to them, tan thinking straight about social issues.

 

Just-sayin quote       You assumed difference were based either on race or chromosomes, when many factors impact outcomes - such as time spent studying, home influences such as coming from a single parent family, attitudes towards education, truancy, quality of education, and many more.  

 This point has been addressed previously add nauseum.    Du-mb people are poor people.    Du-mb people live in public housing ghettoes full of other du-mb people (of any race) and engage in intergenerational welfare dependency.      Du-mb girls get pregnant at an early age to their du-mb boyfriends, who have no intention of supporting their girlfriends or their children.    Du-mb children do badly at school, so it is not surprising that such schools full of du-mb kids do badly in terms of educational results, regardless of whether these schools are racially mixed, or not.      Schools for du-mb children are usually filled with SJW teachers who don’t give a damn for their students education, they are much more concerned about their government pay checks and lavishly funded pension plans.    These SJW teachers already know that these du-mb kids are a waste of money trying to educate.    But it does give these SJW teachers the opportunity to indoctrinate the young and the du-mb, that their predicted poor life outcomes is somebody else’s fault.      Fostering the idea among the young du-mb people that the rest of society is “oppressing” them, is a fantastic way to foster a criminal outlook of life.    This becomes an anti social mindset where young criminals have no shame at all in robbing, raping, and murdering their “oppressors” as some form of payback.      This is exacerbated by the popular culture of the young and the du-mb, where rap “music” performers glamourise violent gang behaviour, misogyny, drug taking, the hating white people, the hating of the police, and the solving of personal disputes with guns. 

 

Just-sayin quote  And I blistered your hinny with evidence from a hundred years of IQ tests that you were wrong and that they did not measure what you thought.  I showed evidence that adopted Black kids raised by white parents scored much higher on IQ tests.  I went over several of the IQ test questions which were questionable such as what makes of little know car brands where made in Ohio towns.  Why you assumed Black children would know this is beyond me.

 According to the book “The Bell Curve”. which is a serious scientific work, a hundred years of IQ testing has identified a 15 point gap in IQ’s between US whites and US blacks.      The book has an entire chapter on whether IQ tests could be slanted towards finding that whites are smarter than blacks, caused by culturally inappropriate questions.    The authors of the book claimed that researchers simply rewrote the questions so that there could be no cultural bias, but it made no difference to the results.   As for the rest of your assertions, I have pointed out previously that there were all sorts of fraudulent claims about the efficiency of the US state and federal governments “Headstart” programs, which according to Arthur Jenson, who was the umpire commissioned by the US government to asses the validity of the claim that education could increase IQ in low IQ children, it was fraudulent. 

 

Just-sayin quote  .  I pointed out to you the racist and white supremacist history of these Democrat processive ideas and traced them through Woodrow Wilson and the elites at Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.  Bogie, do you really want to be associated with the racism of progressive Democrats?      

 Since they were proven to be right, yes I do.    Now, let’s turn the table and ask you the same question.     The same BLM and loony left woke mob who supports DEI, and the idea that men can be women if they just want to be, also claim that all races are equal.     Do you want to be associated with people like that?

 

Just-sayin quote  Thomas Sowell's book, Charter Schools and Their Enemies, focuses on New York City Charter Schools.  Like almost all other of his books, there are hundreds of pages of documentation.  The fact is NYC is trying to get rid of the very Charter Schools that are the only public schools succeeding in many minority neighbourhoods in NYC.  

 I like Thomas Sowell and I have watched his video’s on youtube.     I like the guy and a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense.   But you have to understand where Thomas is coming from.       Mr Sowell is a black speaker/activist who actively campaigns for his own black people.     If he was to admit that black African people are not real bright, he would get himself cancelled in quick time and be out of a job.    So, since he rejects the woke left “oppressor/oppressed” worldview, he has to keep coming up with alternative solutions as to why his race is always failing in every advanced western country.     He seem to be claiming that “charter schools” (whatever they are) greatly improved the IQ’s of black children.    Sorry, I don’t believe it.    It sure sounds like “the miracle of Milwaukee” once again.

 

Just-sayin quote   I don't think leftists gave up on Headstart programs. 

You could be right there.    Here in Australia, despite the NT government spending four times as much per student trying to educate aboriginal children, all it did was to create a 90% failure rate in NAPLAN examinations. The solution from the Left is always “more money, more money, more money” to “close the gap” which never closes.     What you have to understand, my dear just-saying, is that a lot of people are doing very nicely out of pretending that all races are equal.    Especially the ethnic grievance industry.    And they can always get more money by claiming that white people are remiss by not giving them ever more funds to make society more equitable.     That is why so many leftists run around in red faced apoplexy, frothing at the mouth,  if you even suggest that races are not equal.     You have just gravely endangered their very  profitable business model.

 

Just-sayin quote   But you are right that they do not improve test scores and that all benefits of the programs are lost by 3rd grade according to the studies.  Let's be honest, Headstart is more about providing some government funded childcare, than actual focused academic instruction.

 Sounds like you have been boning up on the “Headstart” programs?      Good on you.     This proves to me that you are intelligent.     It seems to me that you realise that my premise was right?     Education can not close the IQ gap between whites, Asians and blacks within a generation.         Education, and the need for people to evolve their brains to be more intelligent, can do so only after a long period of time.      In (who knows) 200-500 years, most black, Hispanic, Arab, Australian aboriginal, and Pacific Islander people may become just as smart as most white and Asian people.     But what we are dealing with today, is the here and now.     

 

Just-sayin quote   So you admit a social issue, methamphetamine, impacted the conduct of Appalachian people.  That's a start. 

Yep, I sure do.       And your point is…..?

 

Just-sayin quote       As an Appalachian American, I will speak in generalities about my people.  There are historical studies that show Appalachian Americans overreact to any perceived slights - studies were done on descendants of the Hatfields and the McCoys, or as I call them 'my cousins'.   I would much rather walk the streets of LA, Chicago, Baltimore, DC or many a 3rd world country at night, than to walk through the hollers of Appalachia. Like they say "when you hear the banjo music, its too late."

 I would love to know the IQ scores of white Appalachian people.

 

Just-sayin quote  That is true, and I hope you can see this for other groups as well.  In England, many of the lower class are whites.  They have poorer test scores and poorer educational outcomes - just like in Appalachia.  Whereas many Blacks in England, come from elsewhere, and are better off on average economically. 

I have no information as too whether blacks in England are better off economically than poor whites.   I would be interested in you submitting a detailed explanation for this premise of yours, which sounds like rubbish to me.       What I am seeing in Britain, is boatload after boatload of illegal immigrants crossing the channel for a better life in Britain.     What attracts them is the white welfare.    And just as in every other society which has accepted large numbers of these dysfunctional immigrants, we see a surge in violent criminal activity from within these ever expanding ethnicities. 

 Black men responsible for more than two-thirds of shootings and more than half of robberies and street crimes in London, according to figures released by Scotland Yard.     67 per cent of those caught by police for gun crimes were black.    Young black Caribbean boys are nearly four times more likely to receive a permanent school exclusion and twice as likely to receive a fixed-period exclusion than the school population as a whole, making them the most excluded group apart from Gypsy or “Traveller” children.    As at September 2005, black men and women accounted for almost 15 per cent of the prison population in Britain, when they only make up 2 per cent of the population. (2001 Census).

Openminded

@just_sayin
Oh geez.
Here we go again.
Flimflam. Just who are you anyway?

Openminded

Argument Topic: Their position is a form of social snobbery which has become a lot more important to them, tan thinking straight about social issues.

@Bogan

And your position is one of hate. You´re an angry man. Stop.

just_sayin

Openminded said:

@just_sayin
Oh geez.
Here we go again.
Flimflam. Just who are you anyway?

If you believe the racism you support is good racism, then make your argument.  I've pointed out how DEI policies are a perversion of true justice because they are only concerned for groups and ignore the injustice done to individuals.  But if you think it is just to treat individuals unjustly, then make your argument.

Bogan

Just-sayin quote   If you believe the racism you support is good racism, then make your argument.  I've pointed out how DEI policies are a perversion of true justice because they are only concerned for groups and ignore the injustice done to individuals.  But if you think it is just to treat individuals unjustly, then make your argument.

I don't think that Closedminded is capable of debating anything.     She has joined the hecklers because she knows that she is right out of her depth on this site.       My assessment of her is that she is a young woman with very strong opinions, which she is unable to justify in words, even to herself.     My guess is that she knows nothing of history, politics, sociology, or psychology.  All she has is the adopted opinions and inculcated slogans of the elitist leftist social class that she aspires to be a part of.   

Barnardot

@Bogan @Openminded ;I don't think that Closedminded is capable of debating anything. 

Well thats totally obvious that you dont think since you only have or only use half a brain any way.

But instead of your insulting opinions how about we stick to the facts shall we?

Like how you have just about never debated any thing with out dishonest cheeting. For example lets just analize your evidence that you quoted from an exstream website that keeps on changing its domain address for some funny reason. Could one reason be that it posts completely made up doctored newspaper clippings about climate change?

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Openminded ;they are only concerned for groups and ignore the injustice done to individuals.  But if you think it is just to treat individuals unjustly, then make your argument.

Derr like so what any way? Dont we have pubic prosecutors who handle injustices done to individuals?

And the groups that they are concerned about are minority groups who get unfarely picked on other groups who think they are the majority and that every minority group should be as hateful and bigoted and homophobic as they are.

Bogan

Go and play in the middle of the road, Barnadot.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;Go and play in the middle of the road, Barnadot.

Sure and why don’t you drive down the wrong side of the road like you lot do in your Holdin pick up then do a donut so you can pick up a lose chick and some kangaroo road kill at the same time then go home and burn it on the Barbie. Then after woods you can both search a round your 1/4 acer bloke for the other 1/2 of your brain that you lost years a go?

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin @Openminded ;they are only concerned for groups and ignore the injustice done to individuals.  But if you think it is just to treat individuals unjustly, then make your argument.

Derr like so what any way? Dont we have pubic prosecutors who handle injustices done to individuals?

And the groups that they are concerned about are minority groups who get unfarely picked on other groups who think they are the majority and that every minority group should be as hateful and bigoted and homophobic as they are.

If you support policies that discriminate against someone in hiring, promotions, benefits, having a voice, grants, or awarding contracts then you support systemic racism.  You don't get more systemic than literally being codified in laws and policies.  We should not support racism in any form.  Now I know some think their racism is holy and sacrosanct racism, but its just ugly ole racism.  People shouldn't be expected to have to hire a lawyer.  Instead we should get rid of racist laws and policies.

At the US Federal level, while there are 14% Blacks in the US they represent 18.2% of employees.  Since almost all government jobs require a college degree, and only 34% of Blacks obtain a college degree in the US, then, Blacks are way overrepresented in Federal jobs. In contrast, Asians make up 6.49% of the Federal workforce while 7% of the population.  But 64% of Asians have a college degree, so they should have a much higher representation in the Federal workforce.  Whites in the federal workforce are 61.2% of the workforce, while being 75.5% of the population according to Census data.  So white workers are underrepresented in Federal jobs.  However, since justice is about individuals, the real measure is if each and every job went to the most qualified person.  DEI is opposed to that happening.  Because of its view of intersectionality it wants to see preferential treatment in hiring and leadership going to groups it favors and being taken away from groups it disfavors - this, again, is racism, and racism is wrong.  

Bogan

Just-sayin quote   At the US Federal level, while there are 14% Blacks in the US they represent 18.2% of employees.  Since almost all government jobs require a college degree, and only 34% of Blacks obtain a college degree in the US, then, Blacks are way overrepresented in Federal jobs. In contrast, Asians make up 6.49% of the Federal workforce while 7% of the population.  But 64% of Asians have a college degree, so they should have a much higher representation in the Federal workforce.  Whites in the federal workforce are 61.2% of the workforce, while being 75.5% of the population according to Census data.  So white workers are underrepresented in Federal jobs.  However, since justice is about individuals, the real measure is if each and every job went to the most qualified person.  DEI is opposed to that happening.  Because of its view of intersectionality it wants to see preferential treatment in hiring and leadership going to groups it favors and being taken away from groups it disfavors - this, again, is racism, and racism is wrong.  

Those are very interesting figures, Just-sayin, could you please provide me with a link to whomever published them?     I think I could use that info.     Here in Australia, plum government jobs (or non jobs) are advertised with "aboriginality: being the primary qualification.    Even within depressed rural towns where many shops are now closed there are an abundance of shop front government owned "businesses" such as "aboriginal land council" , aboriginal cultural center", "Aboriginal men's shed.", "aboriginal health center".   All of them mainly staffed by "aboriginal" (or people who claim to be aboriginal) doing unproductive non jobs.    Even regional hospitals have "aboriginal cultural centers" as well s "aboriginal study rooms" in every university, where an "aboriginal" is the rooms monitor.    Needles to say, recently Australia is experiencing a very serious crime wave caused by out of control young aboriginal children.  

Anyone trying to blame "white privilege" for the fact that aboriginal people have always had a very high incarceration rate and still do, will not get much currency in Australia.   Australia has "black privilege" instead.   "Aboriginal" only welfare and exemptions from the common law are now so high that fully a third of those claiming the very generous aboriginal welfare are believed to be not aboriginal at all.    Your assertion that all racism should end will never happen, because those who claim that race does not exist, are the same ones who advocate for special privileges for their own privileged races.      You would be putting a lot of lefties out of work because you would be destroying  their grievance industry.  

just_sayin

@Bogan
Those are very interesting figures, Just-sayin, could you please provide me with a link to whomever published them?   
Census data can be found in the Census data link.
Federal workforce data can be found at GAO website or look here: 
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ap_5_strengthening_fy22.pdf, - labor force participation
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-and-ethnicity/2022/home.htm#:~:text=The employment-population ratio was,and 58.4 percent for Blacks.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/d24105924.pdf - but beware this one does not break out the Hispanic race and falsely inflates white and Black rates as a result.

just_sayin

Duke professor, Timur Kuran, posted on X how DEI offices have tried to silence him and other professors at Duke about the injustices of DEI policies.  See

https://twitter.com/timurkuran/status/1742439137372762427

Most professors watched in concealed horror the transfer of enormous powers from themselves to rapidly growing DEI bureaucracies. In countless contexts, they endorsed policies they considered harmful, participated in the defamation of scholars they admired, and sheepishly submitted to DEI training—all to be left alone, to avoid being called racist, to advance their careers.

Attacking someone for arguing that DEI is racist is a common tacit of leftists.  They will call people racists, or claim that the use of logic is white supremacy, white privilege, white fragility, or 'whiteness'.  Ad hominem attacks are common, but these attacks do not change the fact that DEI policies are discriminatory and dehumanize individuals, by reducing them to nothing more than an automaton of their racial group.  DEI is antithetical to true justice, for in it individual justice is not a concern, their only interested in group representation.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote     Attacking someone for arguing that DEI is racist is a common tacit of leftists. 

 “Divide and conquer” is a common tool for anybody to grab power for themselves.    Or to grab power for their families or any other group which they identify with.      Socialists of the past (of both the Left and the Right) knew that to wrest power away from the present bunch of ruling class elitists, they had to get the mass of the people on their side.      This was the reason why they always championed and praised the working class, a class which they really despised.       But in the western world, most of the working class was too smart to accept the empty promises of socialism, especially since so many socialist countries were in effect prison camps for almost the entire population.

 This is why Left wing socialists today support multiculturalism and “refugees”.      Here was a beautiful way to split the working class vote and champion the interests of a new type of citizen, the non white immigrant.      This was quite easy to do.      For decades, the Left and leftist politicians had claimed that all races were equal.     And by extension, all religions and cultures were equal.     Since most Europeans had never had any contact with dysfunctional, low IQ and extremely violent races, this seemed to many to be a reasonable proposition.     Especially since it was proposed in such way that only “intelligent” and “sophisticated” people knew this.   Anyone who opposed multiculturalism was labelled a “racist” and this type of human being was considered by most people as akin to Nazis and baby rapers. 

 So the stage was set for the destruction of western civilisation, by people who do not care if their own culture and society turns to crap ,as long as they are the group sitting at the top of the pile of poo when it is all over. 

 And it is all based upon a falsehood, that races are equal.      Unfortunately, even well meaning, intelligent, and compassionate people such as “just-saying” still will not admit that races are different, despite all the evidence being right there in front of their noses.     As a student of history, I have always been amazed at how people have made the most stu-pid decisions based upon the fact that they simply will not accept that their basic underlying ideology is clearly wrong.

 DEI makes a lot of sense as long as one accepts that all races are equal.      Since morality is often never black and white, DEI can be seen as morally correct, because since it is based upon the idea that all races are equal.    So in western societies where some ethnicities are always dysfunctional, then the only feasible explanation for that is white racism and white discrimination, conscious or unconsciously applied. Therefor DEI is absolutely correct in rectifying this supposed “injustice.”     Naturally, this idea plays out very well among the ever growing numbers of dysfunctional minorities now present in European countries, who have turned once peaceful European societies into sheetholes, suburb by suburb.

 The only light at the end of the tunnel is that Europeans are waking up from their apathy and their anti racist brainwashing, and beginning to realise that it is “us or them”.     Either we start thinking straight and start deporting masses of people who are nothing more than a crime and welfare problem, because they are just too violent, and most of them are not smart enough to prosper in western society, or our civilisation will collapse for the second time in 2000 years.    And the Asians, who have adopted every aspect of our culture with the exception of the idea of racial equality, will surpass us.    Galileo once warned the Pope that unless the Catholic world stopped being anti science, then their northern Protestant enemies would eventually dominate the Catholic world.     Today, we are in the same position as the Pope.     Either we accept that races are not equal, or like Rome and the catholic world before it, we are in a doom loop.

just_sayin

@Bogan
 DEI makes a lot of sense as long as one accepts that all races are equal. 

I'll keep correction you when you say this.  The issue with DEI is that it assumes all disparities are caused because of one's race.  That is a fallacy.  Disparities can be caused by environmental factors, choices, chance, or chromosomes.  It is racist to think that all of one's problems are caused by race.  

Again, DEI does not 'correct' injustice - it is unjust and therefore can only cause injustice.  It is unjust because it only is concerned for justice at the group level.  True justice is about ensuring that every individual is treated in just manner.  DEI is OK with harming an individual of one group if it helps another group which they favor.  This makes it an immoral system of belief that can not bring justice, but causes injustice.  

People should be treated as individuals and further we should be committed to helping an individual in need regardless of their race.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   I'll keep correction you when you say this.  The issue with DEI is that it assumes all disparities are caused because of one's race. 

No.   It assumes that all races are equal.    Therefore, if western society produces unequal outcomes in terms of lifestyles for certain ethnicities, then the only possible explanation is white racism and discrimination.   Therefore, the only way to rectify this supposedly unjust situation, is to impose racial quotas.    Racial quotas are DEI.    Your problem is, that you oppose DEI, while supporting the underlying premise which justifies it.

 

Just-sayin quote     That is a fallacy.  Disparities can be caused by environmental factors………

The primary “environmental” factor is, that populations who needed to evolve their brains in order to cope with complex tasks, did so over succeeding generations.       And this resulted in their people becoming more intelligent as generations succeeded generations.     The Jews are the most intelligent race on earth.   Why?   For two reasons.   They were excluded from so many ways to earn an income, that they gravitated towards finance, which according to your own Christian religious teachings, was a disreputable occupation.    So, they became very good at finance and mathematics.       Second, they endured so many pogroms, that they were constantly in danger of being exterminated.    When these pogroms happened, the dumb Jews who had no means to escape got genetically eradicated, while the smart Jews got out of Dodge before the hammer fell, or bought their way out if they were late escaping.    In 1938, the Rothchild’s in Germany left unmolested.    All they had to do to remain unmolested, was to sign over all of their factories, banks, and properties to the Nazi Party. 

 

Just-sayin quote  ………. choices,…….

People with low intelligence are notorious for making bad choices      Intelligence is heritable.  

 

Just sayin quote  ……..chance…..

 It is not “chance” at all if the same situations produce exactly the same outcomes, every time.       Certain ethnicities are dysfunctional within every western society they live in.     They are always very disproportionately represented in serious criminal behaviour and welfare dependency in the USA, Britain, France, and now, Australia.   Australia is a particularly good example because our White Australia Policy which was only repealed (by the elites without any mandate from the people) in the 1970’s, meant that whatever excuses that the black spokespeople supposedly explained away black dysfunction in other countries, could not apply in Australia.     Black African immigrants and refugees were given all sorts of benefits denied white Australian poor people, with the usual and expected result.    Only two days ago, Sudanese men went to war with each other in Adelaide, hacking at each other in the streets with machetes.    The citizens of Adelaide had never seen anything like that sort of behaviour previously.     Which is kind of funny, because Adelaide is a city dependent upon taxpayer funds to survive economically, and because of that, it is very woke. 

 

Just-sayin quote  ….. or chromosomes…..

 If it is “chromosomes” then it is genetic. 

 

Just-sayin quote           It is racist to think that all of one's problems are caused by race.  

 Of course it is.  Which is why I proudly call myself a racist.      It does not bother me one whit, because racism is a valid concept.    “Racist” equates to the old term “heretic.”   And today, we realise that the “heretics” who opposed the dogmas of the church, and who fought for the truth of science, were right.  And I realised long ago that everybody is racist, to one degree or another.     The biggest racists are the people who champion the causes of dysfunctional minorities, and who claim to be anti-racist.

 

Just-sayin quote        Again, DEI does not 'correct' injustice - it is unjust and therefore can only cause injustice. 

Morality is rarely black and white.     The fundamental logic which supports DEI as a morally correct ideal, is the idea that all races are all equal.    So, if this essential “truth” is accepted, then the racial proportions of doctors, astronauts, generals, admirals, bankers, managers, engineers, and top scientists must reflect that of whatever racial proportions exists within any society.     If these proportions do not reflect the racial proportions, then something is unjust with that society, which can only be rectified by enforcing racial quotes.    Racial quotes are DEI.      You oppose DEI, while agreeing with the basic philosophy which justifies it.    

 

Jst-sayin quote    It is unjust because it only is concerned for justice at the group level.

Most of our laws are only concerned with justice at the group level.    Here in Australia, it was decided to force all of the owners of semi automatic rifles to hand them in to the government for destruction.     This was because it was supposed that forcing one section of the populace to hand over the legally owned firearms would make Australia safe for the rest of the population.    This presupposed that every automatic rifle owning citizen was a potent6ial homicidal maniac.     The entire system of “licensing” is discriminatory.     In your ideal world, where everybody must be considered equal, everybody should have a “right” to drive a car, a boat, an aeroplane, of set up any business they want.    But they do not.   Everybody has the right to apply for licenses, but who gets them, or more importantly, who get to retain them, depends upon an individual’s skills and behaviour.

 

Just-sayin quote             True justice is about ensuring that every individual is treated in just manner. 

That depends upon how you define “just?”      Western society has evolved from being mainly “justly” concerned with the welfare of people who are productive and law abiding, to being “justly” concerned with the welfare who are unproductive and very disproportionately criminal.   Our concept of justice has been perverted, because we believe that the reasons why some ethnicities are always largely failures, must be our own fault.     And that belief is grounded in the idea, that we believe that all races are equal.   Therefore, if some ethnicities are always dysfunctional, our society is unjust. 

 

Just-sayin quote        DEI is OK with harming an individual of one group if it helps another group which they favor.  This makes it an immoral system of belief that can not bring justice, but causes injustice.  

     If you support the idea that all races are equal, and societal outcomes does not reflect that “fact”, then something must be intrinsically wrong with that society?      Our society must be unjust.   Righting an unjust societal wrong is “justice.”       Enforcing racial quotas is “justice”, if it corrects whatever is wrong within western society which produces unjust unequal outcomes.      

Just-sayin quote    People should be treated as individuals and further we should be committed to helping an individual in need regardless of their race. 

 But you can not know every individual.       Science categorizes everything, including human beings.     Once a category is identified, it’s group qualities can be ascertained, and reasonably accurate predictions can be made about their future behaviour.       Take Africans.     When ascertaining whether people from a particular ethnicity can become productive and law abiding citizens, one only need to look at their existing group behaviour within your society to make that decision an easy one.        Western immigration and “refugee” policies are based upon the idea that all races are equal, therefore it would be wrong to judge an individual solely upon their groups already shockingly bad reputation.     So, the idiocy continues.     And western society keeps going down the gurgler because people like your good self refuse to understand basic genetics, because your holy books tell you something different from scientific reality.

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

So true. When ever people are compelled the very act of said compulsion is corrupted by it's forceful nature from the get go. We need to look past ones pigmentation the same way we do what kind of cereal they like in the morning. And be like: WHO CARES!

Now-now... Be a little gentle with this comparison. It is obvious that people who like shredded wheat are horrible creatures! A great question to ask on the first date is, "What is your favorite cereal?" "Shredded wheat" - run away. "Cinnamon toast crunch" - propose on the spot.

Bogan

@MayCaesar ;     Now-now... Be a little gentle with this comparison. It is obvious that people who like shredded wheat are horrible creatures! A great question to ask on the first date is, "What is your favorite cereal?" "Shredded wheat" - run away. "Cinnamon toast crunch" - propose on the spot.

Droll, very droll.     If you are unable to contribute to this crucially important debate on why western civilisation will collapse is certain unpalatable facts are not recognised and acted upon, then please go and contribute on some inane topic like "Does Praying Work?."         

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;Because of its view of intersectionality it wants to see preferential treatment in hiring and leadership going to groups it favors

Again what you interpret from statistics is misleading and not correct at all. The statistics of percentage of workers with qualifications doesn't necessarily mean that this has to carolate to the percentage in the work force and that the highest qualification gets the job so like derr the Asians are going to get more jobs. Its more about the individual suiting the job and if you have a string of degrees that doesnt mean you are going to be any good in the work place. All a degree means is that you have read a hole heap of spacific knowledge. But how you apply that knowlegde and your aptitude is another thing.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;People with low intelligence are notorious for making bad choices 

And people who make the bad choice to use only half there brain are notorious period.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;Because of its view of intersectionality it wants to see preferential treatment in hiring and leadership going to groups it favors

Again what you interpret from statistics is misleading and not correct at all. The statistics of percentage of workers with qualifications doesn't necessarily mean that this has to carolate to the percentage in the work force and that the highest qualification gets the job so like derr the Asians are going to get more jobs. Its more about the individual suiting the job and if you have a string of degrees that doesnt mean you are going to be any good in the work place. All a degree means is that you have read a hole heap of spacific knowledge. But how you apply that knowlegde and your aptitude is another thing.

Government agencies get 'credit' for hiring minority candidates.  This harms Asian and to a lesser extent, Hispanic job applicants, because the systems give credit for any minority hire and Black lobbyist groups are more vocal so they get preferential hiring.  The same goes for leadership hires.  The GAO tracks all hires, as well as each department/agency - both at the general level and at the leadership levels.  Again, most government jobs REQUIRE a college degree.  If you would like to apply for a government job or see what the qualifications are you can go to usajobs.gov. Know that you must apply for the specific job you want and reapply for every new job that interests you.  Best of luck to you @Barnardot.   

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;Because of its view of intersectionality it wants to see preferential treatment in hiring and leadership going to groups it favors

Again what you interpret from statistics is misleading and not correct at all. The statistics of percentage of workers with qualifications doesn't necessarily mean that this has to carolate to the percentage in the work force and that the highest qualification gets the job so like derr the Asians are going to get more jobs. Its more about the individual suiting the job and if you have a string of degrees that doesnt mean you are going to be any good in the work place. All a degree means is that you have read a hole heap of spacific knowledge. But how you apply that knowlegde and your aptitude is another thing.

If the government's priority was that the best person was hired for each and every and this would be independently verified, instead they track jobs by race and give departments rewards on meeting racial quotas - or as they would prefer it referenced - they look to ensure equity in hiring.

just_sayin

@Bogan
Bogie,  I think part of the confusion may be our understanding of  Epigenetic information.  The genes of humans are essentially the same, with some epigenetic indicators turned on and some not.  For example you can have twins with identical genes.  One will have autism and one will not.  The environmental factors played a role and some epigenetic indicators were set different.  Genes are much more fluid than originally thought and suggests that the DNA strand does not change as much as we thought, but the epigenetic indicators turn on and off genes.

The primary “environmental” factor is, that populations who needed to evolve their brains in order to cope with complex tasks, did so over succeeding generations.       And this resulted in their people becoming more intelligent as generations succeeded generations.     The Jews are the most intelligent race on earth.   Why?   For two reasons.   They were excluded from so many ways to earn an income, that they gravitated towards finance, which according to your own Christian religious teachings, was a disreputable occupation. 

Don't quit your day job and become a Bible scholar, you aren't very good at it.  Tax collectors where hated because they cheated people, not because the job itself was disreputable.  Matthew, one of the 12 apostles, was a tax collector.  

I've pointed this out that poor Black children when adopted by white families see dramatic rises in their IQ.  Their genes did not change.  Their environment did.  If you took a poor white Appalachian child with a single strung out junkie mom and placed her in a home with rich Black parents you'd see the same result.  The environment matters.  If a high school doesn't offer any AP classes, then you aren't going to get a lot of kids out of that school who are academically ready for STEM jobs.  If a kid comes from a home where the parents are druggies and their is a lot of drama, those factors will impact the child's performance in school.  Environmental factors matter.  If a child comes from a single parent home then there are about 50 negative things that they are statistically more susceptible for - like suicide, truancy, going to jail, depression, having a kid while being a teen, joining a gang, etc.  And these hold true no matter what race the child is. 

DEI is not evil because it wants to help people who grew up in bad environments.  It is evil because it has redefined truth to be a social construct, so that every community has its own view of truth, based on its experience and perspectives, Everyone has their own 'truth' is an often repeated fallacy.  The problem with this is that justice can't exist without objective truth.  That's why some SJWs are ready to put someone in jail for alleged implicit bias, rather than a BLM rioter who burned a federal building down.  His "truth" of a perceived injustice is an actionable offense to him, even if it is just in his own mind and isn't actually real. 

True justice needs actual truth to function though.  True justice is committed to discovering the truth about someone's guilt or innocence based on actions and behaviors, not their membership in a so-called oppressor group.  True justice can't exist without truth - and since DEI doesn't care about factual truth it is anti-justice.

I hate to say this to you Bogie, but the more I think about it, I don't think you are the biggest racist on the site.  I know you openly say you are.  But I believe those who hold these DEI beliefs are fundamentally much more racist and more of a danger than you ever will be.  Don't take this as a challenge to try harder.  

Bogan

Just-sayin quote  Bogie,  I think part of the confusion may be our understanding of  Epigenetic information.  The genes of humans are essentially the same, with some epigenetic indicators turned on and some not.  For example you can have twins with identical genes.  One will have autism and one will not.  The environmental factors played a role and some epigenetic indicators were set different.  Genes are much more fluid than originally thought and suggests that the DNA strand does not change as much as we thought, but the epigenetic indicators turn on and off genes.

 Looks like you have been boning up on genetics?      That’s good, it shows that you are smart.    Which puts you light years ahead of the double digit IQ hecklers who infest this site.  

 

Just-sayin quote  Don't quit your day job and become a Bible scholar, you aren't very good at it.  Tax collectors where hated because they cheated people, not because the job itself was disreputable.  Matthew, one of the 12 apostles, was a tax collector.  

 You are right there, I am not a Christian, and do not study the Bible.    One reason being, it is extremely boring.  Not a joke in it within the three chapters I read as a kid, before realising it was just superstitious nonsense, written by people who had no clue about science.        God wrote a boring book.      But my understanding of history is that money lending was a proscribed occupation in medieval to middle ages Christendom.  It was an occupation proscribed for Christians, and it was only fit for Jews.

 

Just-sayin quote    I've pointed this out that poor Black children when adopted by white families see dramatic rises in their IQ. 

 You have indeed.    And I do not believe a word of it.     It looks like “the Miracle of Milwaukee” again.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Project       It also contradicts everything I have read about genetics and IQ.     My suspicion is that the statement has been perverted from “a dramatic rise in examination scores” to “a dramatic rise in IQ”.     We will have to agree to disagree on that one, since you and I have conflicting sources. 

 

Just-sayin quote    If a high school doesn't offer any AP classes, then you aren't going to get a lot of kids out of that school who are academically ready for STEM jobs. 

 Here in Australia, children are assessed as to their IQ in year 6 to figure out what kind of high school that they should be assigned to.     Kids thought to have high IQ are sent to “selective” high schools where school courses are more demanding.       Kids with average to low IQ are sent to “trade” high schools where subjects such Greek and Latin are not taught, and skills involving trade qualifications are the rigor.     I would be surprised if US selections are different to Australian.     Western civilisation has always had the idea that brains should not be wasted.     History is replete with the stories of bright young local boys being recommended by the local priest to his bishop for education.

 

Just-sayin quote      If a kid comes from a home where the parents are druggies and their is a lot of drama, those factors will impact the child's performance in school. 

 If a kid comes from a home where the parents are druggies, it is probably because the parents have low IQ.    Low IQ parents almost always have low IQ offspring.     Criminal behaviour is linked to genetics, and this was proven by the TWA (Twins Reared Apart) studies.     70 odd years ago, twins and triplet babies taken into care by government authorities were routinely separated and adopted out individually.     This was because adoption staff thought that separating twins and triplets would make it much easier to adopt the babies out.

 This lead to some heartbreaking news stories in the media where separated twins and triplets, who had never known that they had siblings, met by chance on city streets.

 These news stories led to the repeal of laws preventing adopted children from examining their biological family trees.     This gave medical researchers a heaven sent opportunity to examine the effects of genetics on twins.      Adopted children were usually the product of low IQ parents, and they were only adopted out to high IQ parents who’s moral standing and status position in society was unimpeachable.     It was found that adopted twins born of criminal parents had a statistically significant chance of becoming criminal, even to the extent of both becoming criminal.       That this was not always the case, proved that good parenting can prevent even a child who is genetically prone to criminal behaviour, to stay on the straight and narrow.      Genetics and IQ are linked.     Genetics and behaviour are linked.   

 

Just-sayin quote      DEI is not evil because it wants to help people who grew up in bad environments.  It is evil because it has redefined truth to be a social construct, so that every community has its own view of truth, based on its experience and perspectives,

 DEI is morally justifiable, if you think that races are equal.     All that DEI is doing is rectifying a “proven” societal wrong.    You can hardly complain about DEI if you support the “all races are equal” philosophy which the fundamental basis for it, and which justifies it.

 

Just-sayin quote  True justice needs actual truth to function though.  True justice is committed to discovering the truth about someone's guilt or innocence based on actions and behaviors, not their membership in a so-called oppressor group.  True justice can't exist without truth - and since DEI doesn't care about factual truth it is anti-justice.

 You and Thomas Sowell are in a pickle.      You refuse to recognise that races have different bell curves of IQ (which explains everything regarding black dysfunction) but you oppose DEI, which is the logical remedy to the unacceptable poor life outcomes from notoriously dysfunctional races and ethnicities.    You can go on, and on, about how wrong the logic or the consequences of believing in DEI can be.     But you are still supporting the fundamental philosophy which justifies DEI.

 

Just-sayin quote  I hate to say this to you Bogie, but the more I think about it, I don't think you are the biggest racist on the site. 

Awwww, c’mon, I am pretty good.

 

Just-sayin quote       I know you openly say you are.  But I believe those who hold these DEI beliefs are fundamentally much more racist and more of a danger than you ever will be.  Don't take this as a challenge to try harder.  

 I figured out long ago that the so called “anti racist” crowd were extremely racist towards my race.  I am amused that this philosophy, once implied, is now right out in the open now and even has a name "Critical Race Theory."     That is when I started thinking straight, and started looking at historical and social subjects I loved reading about in a different light.   That was when things started making perfect sense to me.    Especially why the same ethnicities are always dysfunctional regardless of which society or country they inhabit.     

just_sayin

@Bogan
 DEI is morally justifiable, if you think that races are equal.     All that DEI is doing is rectifying a “proven” societal wrong.    You can hardly complain about DEI if you support the “all races are equal” philosophy which the fundamental basis for it, and which justifies it.

You are either slow, or just not trying - much like Australian students on their PISA tests.  DEI is immoral because it discriminates by race.  I'll repeat myself again, true justice is about determining someone's award or punishment based on their individual actions or behaviors, rather than based on their racial group.  Thinking that people are capable of doing the same academic work, does not mean that everybody will achieve the same.  Again, and I repeated this before - chance, environment, and choices impact ones future outcome.  For example Australian kids are getting dumber and dumber and have been for decades.  That's just a fact, feel free to Google it.  Is that because of Australian inbreeding and bad genes?  While that would be tempting to believe it has more to deal with students environments and choices.  

Now I could agree with you and say Australians are just a product of bad genes, but there is no evidence for this.  I can point to lots of environmental factors and choices though - like the one reported this week that almost 80 percent of Australian kids didn't try on the PISA tests.  

MayCaesar

It seems to me that @just_sayin is sayin that, regardless of whether races are equal or not, policies discriminating against some races in favor of other races are racist. It does not matter if 99% of members of one race are little more than undergrown gorillas, and 99% of members of another race are superhuman geniuses - the moral approach is one that considers every individual as they are and does not take their group membership into account. If so, I completely subscribe to this. It should not matter what "IQ distribution" of your group is: you are the one applying for a job / study program / etc., not the group.

I still shiver a bit every time they ask about my "race" on any application. Why do they want to know that? Do they hire me for my professional credentials, or my Aryan looks? I am quite a looker indeed, but if I wanted to make it an important part of my resume, I would be applying to a modelling agency, not a hedge fund company.

And on dating apps everyone can marvel at my stunning looks on my profile. No one needs to know what my "race" is: my face is right there. Call it any "race" you want. I personally go by the Zerg: hail to the swarm. That is my "race".

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   You are either slow, or just not trying - much like Australian students on their PISA tests. 

 Ooooh, that hurts.   I thought we were mates?   I mean, bud-dies?

 Just-sayin quote      DEI is immoral because it discriminates by race.  I'll repeat myself again, true justice is about determining someone's award or punishment based on their individual actions or behaviors, rather than based on their racial group

What is moral and what is immoral depends entirely upon majority opinion, my dear just sayin.   “Morality”, is simply the general consensus among a particular group of people as to what constitutes right or wrong behaviour within their group.    Our commonly applied laws are based upon our most commonly held morality.    The problem is, that morality changes as different times cause people to look at what is still acceptable behaviour from different situational perspectives.      Morality is rarely ever black and white, although some people have what psychologists call “Absolutist Mindsets”, (I hope you are not one of those?) where concepts such as moral quandaries and moral priorities are meaningless abstractions beyond the ability of their collective brains to synapse.

 Is racism and racial discrimination wrong?     I think that if you asked the average man or woman in the street those questions, they would reflexively say “yes.”      But if you put the questions in a different way, and began your questions with a lead in qualifying statement which conformed to a widely perceived reality, (that one particular race within your society was really struggling), and then say “is it really wrong to enact race specific legislation designed to elevate these poor people’s position within the common community?”     Then I think that  Mr and Mrs average would concede that THAT kind of racism and discrimination is okay with them, as it is merely designed to help a disadvantaged group of people.       It is a very moral concept to help the less fortunate, and this over rides Mr and Mrs Average’s ability to even recognise that their attitudes and values just happen to be racist.

 While this seems like cognitive dissonance, it really is not, because it is based upon morally good intentions.    Morality is based around “what is best and fair for all or for most of society ”.     So “good” racism and “good” discrimination is morally justifiable, although people never think of it in that way.       The most common morality may still be that” racism and racial discrimination are wrong”, but that morality gets over ridden by the moral priority of helping the disadvantaged.      Therefore, DEI is still morally correct as it can be justified by good intentions.    The problem with DEI is, that it is based upon the idea that all people are equal.   That idea is wrong.  

 

Just sayin quote   Thinking that people are capable of doing the same academic work, does not mean that everybody will achieve the same. 

But if you believe that all people are equal, then whatever outcomes that occur in examinations must still more or less conform to your belief.    And if the examination outcomes do not, then you either have some explaining to do, or the germ of an idea should be beginning to grow within your brain that your basic philosophy might just be wrong?     Especially, if the people who claim that all races are not equal, say that only 15% of enrolled black students are smart enough to understand STEM subjects, and the examination results within STEM courses bear that statistic out.    Then, unless you are prepared to look at your philosophy in the light of logical reasoned analysis, then I am very sorry to say, that I do not think that your brain is fully functioning.

Just-sayin quote      Again, and I repeated this before - chance, environment, and choices impact ones future outcome. 

 Then I repeat again that du-mb people make poor choices.   As for chance and environment, that does not wash.     Here in Australia, many Vietnamese people came to Australia with nothing but the shirts on their backs.    They formed their own ghettoes full of publicly supplied housing.   But they were enterprising (read “intelligent”) people and so they started shops selling bread and Asian consumer goods.   Soon, their entire community was prosperous.  A young, 18 year old Vietnamese boy topped the state in NSW for maths, in 2023.     The same thing happened in every western country where every Asian community settled.   If it was just “chance” and “environment” then how come exactly the same excuses for black dysfunction have never applied to Asians?

 

Just-sayin quote  For example Australian kids are getting dumber and dumber and have been for decades.       That's just a fact, feel free to Google it.       Is that because of Australian inbreeding and bad genes?  While that would be tempting to believe it has more to deal with students environments and choices.  

 The decline of the NSW teaching profession started with the repeal of the White Australia Policy and the importation of dysfunctional low IQ races notorious for their high rates of criminal behaviour, and welfare dependency.    Soon entire parts of Australian cities became ethnic ghetto areas, where suddenly schools became dangerous places for white kids.     The behaviour of certain ethnic students and parents towards teachers means that today, nobody wants to be a teacher.     “Relief” teachers are refusing to go to some inner city schools because they can not cope with ethnic student behaviour.    Female teachers especially want nothing at all to do with Muslim boys.    In Muslim society, females have no right at all to tell a male what to do.       In NSW alone, there are now 50,000 incidents a year where the NSW Police are obliged to attend schools.   Such behaviour from school children has never been seen in Australian schools prior to the abolition of the WAP. 

 

Just-sayin quote  Now I could agree with you and say Australians are just a product of bad genes, but there is no evidence for this.  I can point to lots of environmental factors and choices though - like the one reported this week that almost 80 percent of Australian kids didn't try on the PISA tests. 

 When almost all Australians were white, our collective bell curves of IQ would have matched those of any other mostly white European country.    But in multicultural Australia (another way of saying “culturally divided”) what constitutes our present collective student IQ  would be lower.  Although, Asian immigration would have had the effect of raising the collective IQ.    And, the Euros have buggered up their own nations with multiculturalism, so today, so Australia is still probably on a parity with other now barely European countries.

Barnardot

@just_sayin Know that you must apply for the specific job you want and reapply for every new job that interests you.  Best of luck to you @Barnardot.   

I don't need any goverment job and any way I've done all my study and got my degree and will take over the business when my Pop karks it any way.

Barnardot

@Bogan @just-sayin ;When almost all Australians were white

And when was that? Is this another one of your highly accurate facts that are not biased? Or are you trying to cover up half the facts with your usual half a brain. Like for example when your country brought in the all white European racialist laws which didn't give the Abos a vote nor the Chinks who emigrated there before whites and did all the work and they didn't get counted in the sensuses so therefore they only counted the whites which way back when didn't even a count for even 30% of the actual population. Is that what you half mean with your half brain?

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin Know that you must apply for the specific job you want and reapply for every new job that interests you.  Best of luck to you @Barnardot.   

I don't need any goverment job and any way I've done all my study and got my degree and will take over the business when my Pop karks it any way.

Bernie, my uncle manages a plant and has a very high turn over rate.  He hires lots and lots of ex cons.  Often the potential employee will ask if his record will be a problem.  My uncle always asks one question - "Did you ever kill your boss?"  If the answer is no then he will hire the guy.  You might want to consider adding that question to your hiring questions.  just sayin.  Wishing you all the best in your career endeavors.  

Bogan

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Did you ever kill your boss?"  If the answer is no then he will hire the guy.

I would have to say that that is a pretty loose standard by any measure. Like But sure if you rapped your bosses daughter then yep I’ll give you a job no problem. Just make sure you don’t rape my daughter and you’ll be ok. Yeah like sure. And like I know that you stole heaps of stuff from your ex boss and he fired you that’s ok I’ll give you a job because you didn’t kill him. 

Or suck on this 1 then. Oh sure so you killed your ex bosses wife and daughter then rapped them that’s ok because you didn’t kill the boss. 

That makes heaps of sents to me. So I reckon that we will start advertising for workers and put in the ad You must be a convicted pedo rappist and murderer but if you murdered your ex boss then don’t apply.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;Did you ever kill your boss?"  If the answer is no then he will hire the guy.

I would have to say that that is a pretty loose standard by any measure. Like But sure if you rapped your bosses daughter then yep I’ll give you a job no problem. Just make sure you don’t rape my daughter and you’ll be ok. Yeah like sure. And like I know that you stole heaps of stuff from your ex boss and he fired you that’s ok I’ll give you a job because you didn’t kill him. 

Or suck on this 1 then. Oh sure so you killed your ex bosses wife and daughter then rapped them that’s ok because you didn’t kill the boss. 

That makes heaps of sents to me. So I reckon that we will start advertising for workers and put in the ad You must be a convicted pedo rappist and murderer but if you murdered your ex boss then don’t apply.

Now maybe your slave labor industry is not as desperate for workers.  My uncle says his plant is short 30-50 workers everyday and gets people where ever he can.  His company is a national one and he has had some weird situations.  He had a guy who kidnapped his ex, tied her up to his bed and kept her there for 2 weeks.  My uncle found out about it when the news reported it.  Corporate would not allow him to fire the guy.  He was told to wait and see if the guy missed work, if he did, only then could he be fired.  The guy came back to work, and his dumb ex showed up and picked him up in her car.  He stabbed her multiple times before they left the parking lot.  Luckily, this time, the guy missed some work days because he was in jail for attempted murder, and only then were they able to let him go.  

Knowing your people skills, I strongly suggest you ask your potential employees if they killed their previous bosses.  Just remember that even chicken plucker slaves will revolt.  

Bogan

@just_sayin ;   The guy came back to work, and his dumb ex showed up and picked him up in her car.  

She could not be dumb, just sayin, nobody can be dumb, your religion says that everybody is equal.

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;   The guy came back to work, and his dumb ex showed up and picked him up in her car.  

She could not be dumb, just sayin, nobody can be dumb, your religion says that everybody is equal.

Bogie,  she wasn't dumb because of her race.  She was dumb, because after he kidnapped and strapped her to his bed for 2 weeks, she escaped and within days went back to see him again.  That makes her dumb.  Picking up your kidnapper from work is every bit as dumb as a Black parent voting for a Democrat politician who promises to get rid of school vouchers for his kids.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

So, which race was she and her boyfriend?   

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin

So, which race was she and her boyfriend?   

I don't know.  My uncle never mentioned their race.