Do you see any way trump can be innocent?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

I don't. He was the commander in chief. The buck stops there. But he thought only of himself. He demonstrated you can have good policies for the American way of life and still be a bad president.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/evaluating-jan-6-committees-evidence-full

What are you alleging he is guilty of?  You did not specify.  If it is insurrection - then no I don't think he is guilty.  He has neither been charged by a court with this crime, nor found guilty.  One can complain that he did not do enough to prevent the actions of January 6th, but he did not call for it, nor did he plan it.  

To me it seems more likely he could be found guilty of tax charges or of leaning to hard on election officials.  

Factfinder

Criminal neglect for one.@just_sayin But you are right, he's yet to be found guilty in a court of law. But when you read the evaluation report and reflect on the news coverage of the time from both left and right news sources; you just know he's not perfectly innocent. I do agree with you, he didn't plan the whole thing, but he definetly chose the wrong path once the whole thing began to unfold.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

Criminal neglect for one.@just_sayin But you are right, he's yet to be found guilty in a court of law. But when you read the evaluation report and reflect on the news coverage of the time from both left and right news sources; you just know he's not perfectly innocent. I do agree with you, he didn't plan the whole thing, but he definetly chose the wrong path once the whole thing began to unfold.

Trump is not responsible for the action of others.  His admin warned DC of the potential for a riot, the House did not increase police nor did the DC mayor authorize more mall police.  That's not Trump's job nor responsibility.  Trump could have called for the rioters to stop sooner - that is true, but it is not criminal.  It may show he was a bitter loser, but his slow response was not a crime.

John_C_87

@Factfinder

He has been impeached guilt has nothing to do with it. There is or is not a burden of terminating a impeachment that has not been met by the House of reprenatives. t can not be terminated unless they themsevles are will to face impeachment while negating an impeachment. The delclaration of indepenced states all men are created equal by their creator and impeachment is the sole creation of the House of Reprentatives. What comes next is the House is relieved of their command of impeachment and it is directed by a different authroty of American Consitutional Right. Which is by the way only the Armed Services by fact.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

Criminal neglect for one.@just_sayin But you are right, he's yet to be found guilty in a court of law. But when you read the evaluation report and reflect on the news coverage of the time from both left and right news sources; you just know he's not perfectly innocent. I do agree with you, he didn't plan the whole thing, but he definetly chose the wrong path once the whole thing began to unfold.

Trump is not responsible for the action of others.  His admin warned DC of the potential for a riot, the House did not increase police nor did the DC mayor authorize more mall police.  That's not Trump's job nor responsibility.  Trump could have called for the rioters to stop sooner - that is true, but it is not criminal.  It may show he was a bitter loser, but his slow response was not a crime.

But that's not what the evidence says. We have criminal neglect laws on the books for good reasons. His non response is the crime. The commander in chief doesn't give a heads up, he takes control. In real time he knew the stakes, he could have had guardsmen there despite inaction by the locals. But he sought to do what many liberals do and create hysteria. It backfired and now he must answer. 

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

@Factfinder

He has been impeached guilt has nothing to do with it. There is or is not a burden of terminating a impeachment that has not been met by the House of reprenatives. t can not be terminated unless they themsevles are will to face impeachment while negating an impeachment. The delclaration of indepenced states all men are created equal by their creator and impeachment is the sole creation of the House of Reprentatives. What comes next is the House is relieved of their command of impeachment and it is directed by a different authroty of American Consitutional Right. Which is by the way only the Armed Services by fact.

John, @Factfinder doesn't know that you are American and  speak better English than I do,  He'll think you are foreign or that you are a little crazed in the head.  He won't get what you are doing and why you write so convolutedly.  .  

MayCaesar

Any reasonable judge is supposed to always keep in mind the possibility of the person put on trial being innocent. It is one of the most basic prerequisites to him serving as a judge in the first place. If there are any financial, emotional or otherwise reservations that make him unable to consider this possibility, then he is unfit to be in this court.

I take the "innocent until proven guilty" principle seriously, and given that I am not aware of any particular misdoings that would clearly make Trump guilty of something he has not been found guilty of in court yet - not only do I see a way for him to be innocent, but my default assumption is that he is innocent.

Innocent of a crime, that is... Of a lousy presidency he is absolutely guilty. But in the civilized world people are not put in jail for being a lousy employee.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

I believe in the presumption of innocence as well. Yet as evidence becomes known we must realize that many convicted criminals were presumed innocent at one time.

Bogan

.@Factfinder

Donald Trump will be re elected as President of the USA, so get over it.     Trump Derangement Syndrome seems to be a psychosis infecting young lefties who seem to have an unreasonable hatred for Donald Trump.     Donald Trump is a moderate Republican, and he was a good president who managed the US economy well, as well as standing up to totalitarians and getting a peace deal done between the more intelligent Arab states and Israel.        He kept fuel prices and inflation low.     Your irrational hatred of Donald Trump is going to look very silly if he gets re elected in a landslide.     And why shouldn't he?    The elected Biden administration is obviously corrupt, the unelected US public service right out of democratic control, the economy is in a mess, inflation skyrocketing, woke transgenderism is even pisssing off US women, liberal cities which once opposed Trump's Wall are now back peddling as fast as they can, and minorities who only vote Democrat because they are the party of welfare, are now realising that Biden's government thinks more of imported welfare dependent foreigners than they do welfare dependent US citizens.      The left's main problem is that they just can not admit that Trump was right all along.       It is odd that supposedly intelligent people can not see an entirely predictable catastrophe coming until it arrives right in their faces and forces them to re assess a new reality       

Factfinder

Bogan said:

.@Factfinder

Donald Trump will be re elected as President of the USA, so get over it.     Trump Derangement Syndrome seems to be a psychosis infecting young lefties who seem to have an unreasonable hatred for Donald Trump.     Donald Trump is a moderate Republican, and he was a good president who managed the US economy well, as well as standing up to totalitarians and getting a peace deal done between the more intelligent Arab states and Israel.        He kept fuel prices and inflation low.     Your irrational hatred of Donald Trump is going to look very silly if he gets re elected in a landslide.     And why shouldn't he?    The elected Biden administration is obviously corrupt, the unelected US public service right out of democratic control, the economy is in a mess, inflation skyrocketing, woke transgenderism is even pisssing off US women, liberal cities which once opposed Trump's Wall are now back peddling as fast as they can, and minorities who only vote Democrat because they are the party of welfare, are now realising that Biden's government thinks more of imported welfare dependent foreigners than they do welfare dependent US citizens.      The left's main problem is that they just can not admit that Trump was right all along.       It is odd that supposedly intelligent people can not see an entirely predictable catastrophe coming until it arrives right in their faces and forces them to re assess a new reality       

Um, I voted for Trump. That is why I'm so disappointed in him. Yes, he was right and did inact good policies for our economy. That doesn't obsolve him of criminal neglect and dereliction of duty as commander in chief on Jan, 6. Had he been looking out for the nation instead of himself he could still be running for president again without blood on his hands. And I'm likely older then you. So as you put it, "get over it" in a friendly way of course. If he wins, yeah I'd still like that better than Biden as I have arued against him on these very boards. As evidence mounts and the media cover up becomes so painfully clear, I hope charges are filed against him and his perverted, drugy son. But that isn't the topic of this thread.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Trump is not responsible for the action of others.

@just_sayin

Trump IS responsible for his INACTION clearly laid out in the article that hopefully you have read.

As laid out in Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution here is just one of POTUS´ responsibilities:

https://ballotpedia.org/President_of_the_United_States

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Incitement of violence is an extremely hard case to prove. Trump knows how the judicial system works as he´s abused it his entire life. Trump is adept at pushing the limits of legality with his clever addition of words like ¨peace¨ after inciting a crowd for 1/2 hour. He clearly knew there were people in that crowd who were ready to and intended to be violent, and he did nothing to discourage it. He not only did nothing to discourage it, he strongly hinted it should happen. He instinctively knew to add the word ¨peace¨ after his incitement to F over the judicial system once again. He willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged - and foreseeably resulted in - lawless action at the Capitol, such as: "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore".

Trump is an known narcissist who is only concerned about his own survival. Food for the narcissist is adoration and humiliation to the narcissist is like holy water to the devil. This is supported in the hours between 2-4 as he watched his ¨patriots¨ fight for him; people were violently attacked and killed by his foot soldiers. After reading the full transcript, I hope you´ll find that Trump as President, did not - to the best of his ability - preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. I believe heĺl be convicted on several counts, but Dereliction of Duty will be the most glaring and easiest to prove.

Along with the majority of Americans, Trump had me at ¨grab ´em by the pu&&y.¨ and publicly mocking a disabled journalist.  Why? Because character matters. "Character matters like the foundation of a sturdy building, shaping and upholding everything else around it." Without character everything around you crumbles.

The winning quarterback of your fave football team will be convicted and in prison. It´s best you switch your loyalty to another team. The sooner the better. Life is short. Character matters.

TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Trump can easily walk away as innocent presumed guilty with insufficient evidence. Although allegations against him come from credible sources with substantial proof. There just isnt enough concrete evidence to connect Trump to a crime without him willingly pleading guilty to it. Its like harrassing somebody via text and that person reports it and cops find out the phone was linked to you, but you go ahead and say you had lost it before the date of those text harrasments. Although the proof is there, there isnt enough evidence without a guilty plea that he was the actual person sending those texts. And with a good lawyer you can beat these cases. The problem with Trump is that he is doing too much and his time for living is running out. So keep a close eye on his youngest son to see how he views whata going on because many will support him if he turns politician.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Trump can easily walk away as innocent presumed guilty with insufficient evidence.

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Trump can easily walk away as innocent presumed guilty with insufficient evidence. Although allegations against him come from credible sources with substantial proof. There just isnt enough concrete evidence to connect Trump to a crime without him willingly pleading guilty to it. Its like harrassing somebody via text and that person reports it and cops find out the phone was linked to you, but you go ahead and say you had lost it before the date of those text harrasments. Although the proof is there, there isnt enough evidence without a guilty plea that he was the actual person sending those texts. And with a good lawyer you can beat these cases. The problem with Trump is that he is doing too much and his time for living is running out. So keep a close eye on his youngest son to see how he views whata going on because many will support him if he turns politician.

One does not need to willingly plead guilty to a charge if sufficient evidence from credible sources with substantial proof convinces the jury. That is the very reason for evidence. Again, if enough evidence from credible sources is presented, you do not need a guilty plea. And you say....with a good lawyer you can beat these cases? Trump is unable to 1) afford really good lawyers now and 2) secure a really good lawyer as he´s known to hurt his defense by committing more crimes like defaming his court justices, inciting anger against DAs, etc. No good lawyer in his right mind will take his cases now. He has low-level attorneys now. His Save America PAC donations to supposedly fight fraud have been diverted now to all his legal fees. He has 91 indictments against him. He is running out of money. He is pitifully resorting now to selling trading cards with pictures of him as a super hero on them for $99 per card. He continues to exploit his lower and middle income supporters to get himself out of trouble so he can win to be dictator over his sad, gullible supporters.

Your assertion that Eric, his youngest son, will run could come true but the chances of him riding on his father´s coat tails are quite slim. He simply does not have the narcissistic and manipulative charm that Donald has.

Openminded

Argument Topic: But in the civilized world people are not put in jail for being a lousy employee.

@MayCaesar

This ¨lousy employee¨ was the President of the United States that supposedly was working on behalf of Americans - keeping them safe. He took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.

Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution here is just one of POTUS´ responsibilities:

https://ballotpedia.org/President_of_the_United_States

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Now if you read the article attached to this debate, you would see that he did not in fact faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States. You will see by the proven evidence that as he was watching Fox News, in the comfort of the dining room, as violence erupted at the capitol that he did not even TRY to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States to the best of his ability. There is clear evidence of Dereliction of Duty. If Dereliction of Duty is questionable, then there´s incitement to commit an act against Congress. 

And letś face it, we can leave all the hair splitting to the attorneys, but a person of even low intelligence would have to wonder who in God´s name would actually want Trump as president again.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

John, @Factfinder doesn't know that you are American and  speak better English than I do,  He'll think you are foreign or that you are a little crazed in the head.  He won't get what you are doing and why you write so convolutedly.  

What John understands is that Donald J Trump has be impeached already, it is not a criminal process he is never guilty in this process, he has lost all United States Constitutional right to be in the American political process in any way. As Impeachment is the sole power of the House of reprentatives, they have used this power, having use the powers in the correct way or in the incorrect way the Senate is as well as congress subject to impeachment themselves as ot relates to the Exsecutive officers relief of command. Reasenable doubt is not in play here just-sayin. If Senate is to restor the former Exsecutive officers command they must present in writng the state of the union he and made with established justice of the United States Constitution. This is not a pardon type of situation the Senat are under oath and are to presnt facts to reinstate command. Otherwise they are to be impeach with Donald J Trump.

What executive officer # 45 was correct about Officer # 46 is to be impeached as well. In oval office or not he officer Joseph Robinett Biden Jr. is unfit for command of serving United States Constitutional right. This like officer Trump is not a criminal charge but relief of command made upon an oath taken by Mr. Joseph R, Biden Jr. himself.

The political bands that have held these two men apart is to be dissolved.

Bogan

@Factfinder

Factfinder quote   Um, I voted for Trump.

Hope reigns supreme. 

 

Factfinder quote     Yes, he was right and did inact good policies for our economy.

Got that right, so what’s the problem?

 

Factfinder quote   That doesn't obsolve him of criminal neglect and dereliction of duty as commander in chief on Jan, 6.

 How you figure that is beyond me?     He can not be charged with “insurrection” because if he could, you can bet that the Democrats and their political masters within the left leaning unelected US administration, would have already added that to the 91 false charges that President Trump is already facing.      That is more charges than Al Capone faced.    And with a little bit of rational thinking, I would have thought that you would see this whole charade as political interference by the administration elites?    I never for one second thought that the “Russia collusion” hoax had any merit, and I was right.     I soon figured out where covid-19 came from, and I shook my head in pitying wonder at Dr Fauci and his Health Department trying to claim it was a natural virus.    Lying bastards.     I was shocked when US cities began to go up in flames again, and Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi said that “there should be more insurrections”.     Which sure looks like incitement to insurrection to me?     But nobody in the left leaning unelected US Justice Department is going to go after her.       But when Trump supporters, who with good reason believed that the Presidential election had been rigged, did a bit of insurrecting themselves, the whole left wing media, which had laughingly claimed that the USA’s burning cities were “mostly peaceful”, went into full Goebbels mode and tried to blame everything on Donald Trump.

 

Factfinder quote       Had he been looking out for the nation instead of himself he could still be running for president again without blood on his hands.

President Trump is facing the rest of his life in prison because he thinks more about his country than he does himself.    Every one of those 91 trumped up charges would disappear overnight if President Trump withdrew from the Presidential candidacy.       These charges began to be dreamed up the moment that he announced his candidacy, and given the timing, you can not see that as in any way political interference in a US election?   I am disappointed in you. 

 

Factfinder quote       And I'm likely older then you. So as you put it, "get over it" in a friendly way of course. If he wins, yeah I'd still like that better than Biden as I have arued against him on these very boards. As evidence mounts and the media cover up becomes so painfully clear, I hope charges are filed against him and his perverted, drugy son. But that isn't the topic of this thread.

 It is very much related to the topic of this thread.      By claiming that President Trump is a crook, you are aiding the Biden camp and the corrupt officials within the unelected US administrations, who are doing a Putin by persecuting their main political rival.     The more that they do so, I would have thought that the more you would have smelled a rat?     You seem smart enough to figure out that the US public service is as out of democratic control as when the day they assassinated President John F. Kennedy?      If such corrupt, ruthless, and authoritarian elitist people hate Trump, you can bet I support Donald Trump to the hilt.     Even though his election may be a blow to Ukraine, who I really do believe must be supported.    But in a way, I know Trump is correct there as well.    It is a European problem, and the damned wimpy, always virtue signaling Euros, can deal with it themselves.    Instead of always sneering at the USA with superior airs, and then running to the USA like it is mommy whenever there is another war that they don’t want to get involved in.         

Openminded

@Bogan

Here we go with the Gish Gallop. Like I said, debating with Bogan is like being thrown into the boxing ring.
Enough of the rapid fire B-S lines that you just throw out there. You sound like rabid Jim Jordan. 

Openminded

@Bogan

Your Gish Gallop method of debating is transparent. You rapid fire  b_u_ll_sheet one liners, one right after another to throw your opponent off guard. Transparent. Be decent for once.

Openminded

@Bogan

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/donald-trump-debate-strategy-gish-gallop/673061/

John_C_87

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Trump can easily walk away as innocent presumed guilty with insufficient evidence. Although allegations against him come from credible sources with substantial proof. There just isnt enough concrete evidence to connect Trump to a crime without him willingly pleading guilty to it. Its like harrassing somebody via text and that person reports it and cops find out the phone was linked to you, but you go ahead and say you had lost it before the date of those text harrasments. Although the proof is there, there isnt enough evidence without a guilty plea that he was the actual person sending those texts. And with a good lawyer you can beat these cases. The problem with Trump is that he is doing too much and his time for living is running out. So keep a close eye on his youngest son to see how he views whata going on because many will support him if he turns politician.

Donald J. Trump has been impeached it is out of the Courts hands if he is to run for officer or not. The Senate must submit the state of the union in writing to which officer Trump was serving American United States Constitution not just criminal law to reinstate his command to display abilities of Constitutional preservation. Picking one side of the American Constitution to work with is not preserving it achatecture. The Senate cannot pardon officer Trump from impeachment once made it is a sole power of the House of Representatives not the court. The only chance is to reinstate him to command but comes with a cost of joining him in impeachment if no such state of the union is presented in writing.

We the people at the officer level do not claim our constitutional right, the officer is to represent all men as they are independent form English law, so it is collectively our constitutional right only. The 1st Amendment is not just the writing freedom of speech, it is a complete state of the union. Admitting you do not know is admitting you cannot display the abilities that had been promised by oath.

Factfinder

"Hope reigns supreme."@Bogan

I agree. Now if only more people would make reality a bigger priority than party affiliation like I did. I know they can, I see their integrity on this site even. Thanks.

Openminded

Argument Topic: President Trump is facing the rest of his life in prison because he thinks more about his country than he does himself. Every one of those 91 trumped up charges would disappear overnight if President Trump withdrew from the Presidential candidacy. These charges began to be dreamed up the moment that he announced his candidacy, and given the timing, you can not see that as in any way political interference in a US election? I am disappointed in you.

@Bogan
That is about the saddest, most pathetic post on Trump I´ve seen. 
Sweet J__E__S___U___S. He´s got you good.

Bogan

Closeminded quote       You sound like rabid Jim Jordan. 

Thank you, thank you, Closedminded.      Claiming that I am like Jim Jordan, a man whom I greatly admire, gives my ego a boost.    Please keep up the positive recommendations.         

Factfinder

You do have a way with words @Openminded

John_C_87

Trump has not been impeached because there had been no impeachment process it was performed as a trial which is not a House of Representatives sole power the impeachments as criminal charge. The lawyers only burden is to provide Officer Trumps state of the unions made by him on behalf of United States Constitution as so the connection to justice can be made or not. There is no presumption of innocence in an impeachment and to perform one or twelve wrong does not make them a trail with criminal outcome. The House is to be called together by the Chief justice of the Armed Services for no other reason but to agree the ability of a President has been met or not by officer trump and provide in writing how. A lawyer or group of lawyers is not necessary though they are not restricted from observation of the official relief of command.

Avioding the impeachment process like how it is being done only confirms relief of command is required the impeachment is valid. The House can reinstate him they cannot acquit him the House as a who must agree on the point of how he has served the United States Constitution and not broken his oath of office. Besides that, it is the House including congress which is connected to the delegation of relief of command.

The U.S. Senate on Saturday acquitted former President Donald Trump on an impeachment charge of inciting an insurrection. Can't overturn something that does not exist

Trump Acquitted In Impeachment Trial On Capitol Insurrection : Trump Impeachment Aftermath: Updates : NPR

The issue is first that the political bands that bind the House are to be broken before impeachment and the House is to be placed under oath. Meaning they are to serve the American Constitution including its law written as right and not criminal law. I do not see stalling as an effective alternative to avoid the truth at this point. Officer Biden has enough issue of American Constitutional discrepancy to be impeached as well more than likely within a few days. It does work often as a legal strategy but like Said in the American Constitution impeachment is not a criminal process.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Guilty

Jury finds Trump must pay $83.3 million to E. Jean Carroll

Factfinder

@JulesKorngold

Yeah, certainly can't characterize him as innocent. What are we sinking to as a nation?

Openminded

Argument Topic: Jury finds Trump must pay $83.3 million to E. Jean Carroll

@JulesKorngold

A penalty purposely set so high to shut the man boy up. Though trump has made several truth social comments on how unfair it is, I believe he´ll never defame E. Jean Carroll again. Of course they´ll appeal - that´s trump´s history with the judicial system (an abuse I find repulsive) but most certainly it will not pan out for him.

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@JulesKorngold

A penalty purposely set so high to shut the man boy up. Though trump has made several truth social comments on how unfair it is, I believe he´ll never defame E. Jean Carroll again. Of course they´ll appeal - that´s trump´s history with the judicial system (an abuse I find repulsive) but most certainly it will not pan out for him.

Well as glad as I am he can't defame that grown woman, I'm more glad he can't fondle little girls on camera anymore. Oh wait, that's the current president!

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@JulesKorngold

A penalty purposely set so high to shut the man boy up. Though trump has made several truth social comments on how unfair it is, I believe he´ll never defame E. Jean Carroll again. Of course they´ll appeal - that´s trump´s history with the judicial system (an abuse I find repulsive) but most certainly it will not pan out for him.

Well as glad as I am he can't defame that grown woman, I'm more glad he can't fondle little girls on camera anymore. Oh wait, that's the current president! :

AntiRioter

Factfinder said:

I don't. He was the commander in chief. The buck stops there. But he thought only of himself. He demonstrated you can have good policies for the American way of life and still be a bad president.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/evaluating-jan-6-committees-evidence-full

What good policies? He got millions killed and ruined our economy 

Factfinder

AntiRioter said:

Factfinder said:

I don't. He was the commander in chief. The buck stops there. But he thought only of himself. He demonstrated you can have good policies for the American way of life and still be a bad president.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/evaluating-jan-6-committees-evidence-full

What good policies? He got millions killed and ruined our economy 

You can't falsely accuse people like that just because they're smarter than you. You're reported. It's against the law. LOL