Does Trump have an army albeit a secret one?

Factfinder

jack said:

Hello:

Seems to me that whenever anyone, anywhere crosses Trump, his hidden army come out of the woodwork to threaten, intimidate, swat, dox, hit in the head with a hammer, and do anything they can to absolutely destroy that person, and they do it well. 

I suspect there's a coterie of debaters here who think that's great, and there's one who thinks it's abhorrent.  Which side are you on?

excon

I think it's abhorrent. Can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you refer to? Are they related to antifa, black lives matter or this new mega people talk about? Do they also burn, rape and pillage like black lives matter and antifa did?

jack

Factfinder said:

Can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you refer to? Are they related to antifa, black lives matter or this new mega people talk about? Do they also burn, rape and pillage like black lives matter and antifa did?

Hello fact:

The use of "whataboutism" means you admit the bad behavior I referred to, but since patriots like BLM and ANTIFA also misbehave, your bad behavior is excused..

In the real world, that ain't the way it works..  Pee Wee Herman did the same thing for his second grade audience.   But, it doesn't work where adults congregate.

You're dismissed.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

Can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you refer to? Are they related to antifa, black lives matter or this new mega people talk about? Do they also burn, rape and pillage like black lives matter and antifa did?

Hello fact:

The use of "whataboutism" means you admit the bad behavior I referred to, but since patriots like BLM and ANTIFA also misbehave, your bad behavior is excused..

In the real world, that ain't the way it works..  Pee Wee Herman did the same thing for his second grade audience.   But, it doesn't work where adults congregate.

You're dismissed.

excon

So no, you can't answer a simple question. Your childish deflection means the "hidden army" was made up. And you don't like being called out for terrorist groups you support. 

So, can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you made up? 

jack

Factfinder said:

So no, you can't answer a simple question. Your childish deflection....

Hello:

Whatever name you're using now, I know you.  Your verbiage is familiar..   You didn't learn anything from our previous encounters.  You don't DEMAND I answer.. That ain't gonna work.   I told you that before, and I'm telling you again..  

You're DISMISSED..  I can't deal with your histrionics.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

So no, you can't answer a simple question. Your childish deflection....

Hello:

Whatever name you're using now, I know you.  Your verbiage is familiar..   You didn't learn anything from our previous encounters.  You don't DEMAND I answer.. That ain't gonna work.   I told you that before, and I'm telling you again..  

You're DISMISSED..  I can't deal with your histrionics.

excon

Hi Jack. This is debate site. Thought you should know. At least you're honestly admitting you can't answer because it exposes your basic ignorance. Oh, you couldn't be transparent so you did put some spin on it. Lose points on that part.

Factfinder, same username as always. Perhaps it's first part "fact" that causes you to forget my name as those usually do expose fallacy. But all you need do is drop the fallacies! Then you wouldn't feel insecure when you read facts, truth, and logic. You would also no longer feel the need to recoil and pretend you can only hear verbiage. Tryin to help you hear jack. 

Can you elaborate on this "hidden army"? Or was that just verbiage?

School's out.

jack

Factfinder said:

Can you elaborate on this "hidden army"? Or was that just verbiage?

Hello nom, or factmachine, or whomever.  I don't care who you are.  I just wonder why you're hiding..  Maybe you're afraid of being banned again..

If you can't answer the question I posed above, I'll have to do it myself..

I don't know where this "army" comes from, hence my question.  But, I CLEARLY see the results of their activity...  You, however, appear to be totally clueless about it..  Perhaps because you're one of them.. I dunno.  

As you said, it's a simple question.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

Can you elaborate on this "hidden army"? Or was that just verbiage?

Hello nom, or factmachine, or whomever.  I don't care who you are.  I just wonder why you're hiding..  Maybe you're afraid of being banned again..

If you can't answer the question I posed above, I'll have to do it myself..

I don't know where this "army" comes from, hence my question.  But, I CLEARLY see the results of their activity...  You, however, appear to be totally clueless about it..  Perhaps because you're one of them.. I dunno.  

As you said, it's a simple question.

excon

Lol, "banned again" LOL Believe me a lot of people point out in doctrinal flaws, not just me.

So it was made up.    "of their activity" hmm. Very vague, coy. Could you possibly mean like when a lawyer for trump exposes the fact that the person seeking damages against trump destroyed evidence, in particular evidence that was damming to her case? Is she one of the "secret" soldiers you assert ( in question form of course) trump has in a "secret army"? 

https://apnews.com/article/trump-carroll-defamation-lawsuit-52ef41abb843edce239a5afe78efc6f5

MayCaesar

jack said:

Hello nom, or factmachine, or whomever.  I don't care who you are.  I just wonder why you're hiding..  Maybe you're afraid of being banned again..

If you can't answer the question I posed above, I'll have to do it myself..

I don't know where this "army" comes from, hence my question.  But, I CLEARLY see the results of their activity...  You, however, appear to be totally clueless about it..  Perhaps because you're one of them.. I dunno.  

As you said, it's a simple question.

excon

This kind of reminds me of the Illuminati conspiracy theory.

"The Illuminati run everything!"
"But who are they?"
"Oh, I don't know, they are very secretive."
"Then how do you know that they exist?"
"The results of their work are everywhere!"
"Such as?"
"You are just a sheeple controlled by them."

Bogan

Actually, Donald J. Trump does have a secret army.   They are all trained paratroopers and they are constantly in the air, on rotating shifts, ready to drop on any ANTIFA insurrection.

Factfinder

 Now that was funny @Bogan

jack

Argument Topic: Does Trump have an army albeit a secret one?

Hello again:

Here's my recent thinking..  When Trump was indicted, his popularity skyrocketed..  It happened each and every time he was indicted, which was about 4 or 5 times..  Trump, not being a fool, saw some value in embracing those indictments, instead of defending himself against them.  So, he holds them up to his base as ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and the reasons why he should be elected.  

Bizarrely, it continues.. Trump wants to overthrow the government and install himself as king/dictator.  He's not shy in saying so.  I think, he thinks the way to kick it off, is for him to be put in jail, and he's doing his best to provoke any, and/or, all of the judges hearing his cases, to throw him in jail.  And that, will release the kraken, or as I call it, his "hidden" army.. 

Call me crazy, but I think it'll happen today, at the E. Jean Carroll trial, where he'll be jailed, and his "hidden" army will reveal themselves.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Hello again:

Here's my recent thinking..  When Trump was indicted, his popularity skyrocketed..  It happened each and every time he was indicted, which was about 4 or 5 times..  Trump, not being a fool, saw some value in embracing those indictments, instead of defending himself against them.  So, he holds them up to his base as ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and the reasons why he should be elected.  

Bizarrely, it continues.. Trump wants to overthrow the government and install himself as king/dictator.  He's not shy in saying so.  I think, he thinks the way to kick it off, is for him to be put in jail, and he's doing his best to provoke any, and/or, all of the judges hearing his cases, to throw him in jail.  And that, will release the kraken, or as I call it, his "hidden" army.. 

Call me crazy, but I think it'll happen today, at the E. Jean Carroll trial, where he'll be jailed, and his "hidden" army will reveal themselves.

excon

I'll oblige you, crazy. Got quotes? Trump derangement syndrome...

Openminded

Argument Topic: Seems to me that whenever anyone, anywhere crosses Trump, his hidden army come out of the woodwork to threaten, intimidate, swat, dox, hit in the head with a hammer, and do anything they can to absolutely destroy that person, and they do it well.

@jack @Factfinder @MayCaesar @Bogan

I believe the use of the phrase  ¨hidden army¨ is metaphorical. His army is his unconditional loyalists and disciples.

Trump and trumpism is abhorrent and is lurking among us all.

And yes, I also feel when making references to Trump, his hidden army is all over me like desperate magats (sic) on a steamy dumpster.

To understand who his hidden army is, we need to recognize their likely trials and tribulations and legitimate complaints.  What made them vote for Trump in the first place? In 2016 many marginalized and forgotten citizens thought Trump gave them hope for a better future of wealth, power and winning. I can understand that. Following his popular Apprentice show, a wealthy, successful, beloved and funny entertainer promised them victory. To the vulnerable, this was their ticket to paradise - their promise for a better future. To the wise who did their due diligence and researched his fraudulent past, he was just an arrogant populist abusing his wealth and power. A first-time vote for Trump can be understood; many gave him a chance, but after four chaotic years  said ¨never again¨. But for those still unsatisfied and angry, his army of loyal disciples, never gave up on his promise to fix everything -  trust no one but me - ¨I alone can fix it¨.  I believe they are beyond reality now; they´ve reached the depths of delusion. Can Trump be held responsible for how his supporters feel? No. But Trump will be held accountable for exploiting and manipulating his foot soldiers to incite an insurrection so to prove their loyalty to the mastermind. Just ask the 470+ loyal foot soldiers who are incarcerated and more to come.

So Trump´s armies are infiltrating everywhere now.  For those who´ve adopted trumpism as a result of trump´s marketing skills and fraudulence? They are getting exceptionally good at asserting their trumpian skills. I can see how it would be exciting, chaotic, empowering and entertaining for them. Being stable, the same ´ol same ´ol - is boring. But trumpism? Woohoo! Whataboutism, gaslighting, flimflam trickery, cheating, deflecting, lying, ugly speech and name calling will get you satisfaction and the win. Reality is just a mirage for them, delusion gets the trophy. For Team Trump, cheating is necessary and winning is essential.

And for us who never fell for the con man? For those of us who choose reality over Team Trump? Keep fighting the good fight as good over evil always prevails. Our descendants will be reading the history books one day and we will be on the right side of history. Integrity matters. Morality matters. Character matters. Truth matters. Decency matters.

Openminded

Argument Topic: So no, you can't answer a simple question. Your childish deflection means the "hidden army" was made up. And you don't like being called out for terrorist groups you support

@Factfinder

Bam! There´s the flimflam trickery. Well done soldier.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Could you possibly mean like when a lawyer for trump exposes the fact that the person seeking damages against trump destroyed evidence, in particular evidence that was damming to her case? Is she one of the "secret" soldiers you assert ( in question form of course) trump has in a "secret army"?

@Factfinder

Bam! There´s the whatabouism. Getting closer to the win and the trophy!

Openminded

Argument Topic: I'll oblige you, crazy. Got quotes? Trump derangement syndrome...

@Factfinder

Bam! Immature name calling and phrases.
Getting closer to the bottom rung of delusion!

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@jack @Factfinder @MayCaesar @Bogan

I believe the use of the phrase  ¨hidden army¨ is metaphorical. His army is his unconditional loyalists and disciples.

Trump and trumpism is abhorrent and is lurking among us all.

And yes, I also feel when making references to Trump, his hidden army is all over me like desperate magats (sic) on a steamy dumpster.

To understand who his hidden army is, we need to recognize their likely trials and tribulations and legitimate complaints.  What made them vote for Trump in the first place? In 2016 many marginalized and forgotten citizens thought Trump gave them hope for a better future of wealth, power and winning. I can understand that. Following his popular Apprentice show, a wealthy, successful, beloved and funny entertainer promised them victory. To the vulnerable, this was their ticket to paradise - their promise for a better future. To the wise who did their due diligence and researched his fraudulent past, he was just an arrogant populist abusing his wealth and power. A first-time vote for Trump can be understood; many gave him a chance, but after four chaotic years  said ¨never again¨. But for those still unsatisfied and angry, his army of loyal disciples, never gave up on his promise to fix everything -  trust no one but me - ¨I alone can fix it¨.  I believe they are beyond reality now; they´ve reached the depths of delusion. Can Trump be held responsible for how his supporters feel? No. But Trump will be held accountable for exploiting and manipulating his foot soldiers to incite an insurrection so to prove their loyalty to the mastermind. Just ask the 470+ loyal foot soldiers who are incarcerated and more to come.

So Trump´s armies are infiltrating everywhere now.  For those who´ve adopted trumpism as a result of trump´s marketing skills and fraudulence? They are getting exceptionally good at asserting their trumpian skills. I can see how it would be exciting, chaotic, empowering and entertaining for them. Being stable, the same ´ol same ´ol - is boring. But trumpism? Woohoo! Whataboutism, gaslighting, flimflam trickery, cheating, deflecting, lying, ugly speech and name calling will get you satisfaction and the win. Reality is just a mirage for them, delusion gets the trophy. For Team Trump, cheating is necessary and winning is essential.

And for us who never fell for the con man? For those of us who choose reality over Team Trump? Keep fighting the good fight as good over evil always prevails. Our descendants will be reading the history books one day and we will be on the right side of history. Integrity matters. Morality matters. Character matters. Truth matters. Decency matters.

You forgot your favorite, gish gallop. Ironically you used a ton of that. In your arsenal here you used everything you listed as well as gish gallop. With this emotionally driven delusional outburst you surpassed trump. congrats. 

Openminded

@Factfinder

And Bam! There´s the gaslighting.
Give the man cigar!

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

Bam! There´s the flimflam trickery. Well done soldier.

This is a debate site. I asked a legit question that @Jack couldn't answer. Sorry that discredits your hero. Perhaps find one that knows how to debate?

Factfinder

@Openminded

Yes I was still pressing him on the questions he dodges. Funny how socialist have trouble defending their hypocrisy they invent an "ism" at the point they realize they've been outed.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you refer to? Are they related to antifa, black lives matter or this new mega people talk about? Do they also burn, rape and pillage like black lives matter and antifa did?

@Factfinder

THAT was your response to his question. You turned it around by using flimflam trickery. 

Factfinder

As you know @Openminded Jack asked to be called crazy when his crazy perdition doesn't pan out. But of course with your blind socialism you feel the need to write scathing attacks when you read lots of post exposing your indoctrinated views. The thing is @openminded, the puppet masters who are the architects of your preconceived notions will turn on your kind when they discover a newer voting base that they can exploit. Your masters don't care about you or your personal views, socialism/communism is the goal. Don't believe me, compare tactics of the left with marxism. Oh, that "ism" is established policy unlike the ones you make up when confronted by truth and reality. You can see how you're manipulated, unless you continue to opt for self willed ignorance. 

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

THAT was your response to his question. You turned it around by using flimflam trickery. 

Nope. That was my question to his assertion. 

MayCaesar

Openminded said:

@jack @Factfinder @MayCaesar @Bogan

I believe the use of the phrase  ¨hidden army¨ is metaphorical. His army is his unconditional loyalists and disciples.

Trump and trumpism is abhorrent and is lurking among us all.

And yes, I also feel when making references to Trump, his hidden army is all over me like desperate magats (sic) on a steamy dumpster.

To understand who his hidden army is, we need to recognize their likely trials and tribulations and legitimate complaints.  What made them vote for Trump in the first place? In 2016 many marginalized and forgotten citizens thought Trump gave them hope for a better future of wealth, power and winning. I can understand that. Following his popular Apprentice show, a wealthy, successful, beloved and funny entertainer promised them victory. To the vulnerable, this was their ticket to paradise - their promise for a better future. To the wise who did their due diligence and researched his fraudulent past, he was just an arrogant populist abusing his wealth and power. A first-time vote for Trump can be understood; many gave him a chance, but after four chaotic years  said ¨never again¨. But for those still unsatisfied and angry, his army of loyal disciples, never gave up on his promise to fix everything -  trust no one but me - ¨I alone can fix it¨.  I believe they are beyond reality now; they´ve reached the depths of delusion. Can Trump be held responsible for how his supporters feel? No. But Trump will be held accountable for exploiting and manipulating his foot soldiers to incite an insurrection so to prove their loyalty to the mastermind. Just ask the 470+ loyal foot soldiers who are incarcerated and more to come.

So Trump´s armies are infiltrating everywhere now.  For those who´ve adopted trumpism as a result of trump´s marketing skills and fraudulence? They are getting exceptionally good at asserting their trumpian skills. I can see how it would be exciting, chaotic, empowering and entertaining for them. Being stable, the same ´ol same ´ol - is boring. But trumpism? Woohoo! Whataboutism, gaslighting, flimflam trickery, cheating, deflecting, lying, ugly speech and name calling will get you satisfaction and the win. Reality is just a mirage for them, delusion gets the trophy. For Team Trump, cheating is necessary and winning is essential.

And for us who never fell for the con man? For those of us who choose reality over Team Trump? Keep fighting the good fight as good over evil always prevails. Our descendants will be reading the history books one day and we will be on the right side of history. Integrity matters. Morality matters. Character matters. Truth matters. Decency matters.

This is a great way to write a bunch of paragraphs without saying anything of substance. "The right side of history", "flimflam trickery" - you just have a list of these terms that you put in randomly in your sentences trying to make them look complex. But at the end of the day all you said is that there are some people who unconditionally support Trump, and everyone who disagrees with you on the assessment of his presidency belongs to the group - but you have not provided any reasoning as to where this conclusion follows from.

You previously attributed me and some other people who do not support Trump to the "team Trump". It seems to me that you do it with everyone who disagrees with you even a little. "Team Trump" might as well be defined as "people who disagree with @Openminded on something". Which leaves the question unanswered: again, what is this "hidden army"? It is a metaphor of what? What does it represent? Who is demonstrably a member of it?

You do not choose reality at all, do not kid yourself. You see the world as a battlefield of classes and privileged/oppressed groups. I also tend to be idealistic - I see the world as a collection of awesome individuals who sometimes step on a dark path, but whose goodness does not change over it - but, at least, my view is based on certain objective observations, such as the fact that the overwhelming majority of interactions between individuals are non-confrontational. I am not sure what observations, other than those of your TV screen, have produced your outlook.

jack said:

Hello again:

Here's my recent thinking..  When Trump was indicted, his popularity skyrocketed..  It happened each and every time he was indicted, which was about 4 or 5 times..  Trump, not being a fool, saw some value in embracing those indictments, instead of defending himself against them.  So, he holds them up to his base as ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and the reasons why he should be elected.  

Bizarrely, it continues.. Trump wants to overthrow the government and install himself as king/dictator.  He's not shy in saying so.  I think, he thinks the way to kick it off, is for him to be put in jail, and he's doing his best to provoke any, and/or, all of the judges hearing his cases, to throw him in jail.  And that, will release the kraken, or as I call it, his "hidden" army.. 

Call me crazy, but I think it'll happen today, at the E. Jean Carroll trial, where he'll be jailed, and his "hidden" army will reveal themselves.

excon

So are you going to come here and admit that you are, indeed, out of touch with reality? Or are you the kind of person who just throws words around, and when the reality does not match them, just move on - like, you know, the former president in question has a habit of doing?

Openminded

Argument Topic: This is a great way to write a bunch of paragraphs without saying anything of substance.

@MayCaesar

This is a great way to write a bunch of paragraphs without saying anything of substance. "The right side of history", "flimflam trickery" - you just have a list of these terms that you put in randomly in your sentences trying to make them look complex. But at the end of the day all you said is that there are some people who unconditionally support Trump, and everyone who disagrees with you on the assessment of his presidency belongs to the group - but you have not provided any reasoning as to where this conclusion follows from.

While admittedly I am not a seasoned debater, I do believe what I wrote contained substance. The question posed was ... Does trump have a secret army?  I replied that I believed that ¨army¨ was a metaphor for his unconditional, loyal supporters. Because I write words you may not, does not mean I am trying to make them look complex. Give me a break. Yes, there appears to be unconditional trump support. Anyone paying attention knows that. No I am not insinuating that everyone who disagrees with me on his presidency belongs to a group - only his army of unconditional supporters.

Trump and his brand of ¨trumpism¨ is spreading.  His supporters have adopted and normalized it. 

I believe I write thoughtfully and research things before posting.  I wrote carefully about my understanding of Trump´s loyal followers and why I thought a vote for him the first time was okay. Surely there are numerous posts on here that are deserving of critique but what´s up MayCaesar that you pick apart my posts? 

Openminded

Argument Topic: I think it's abhorrent. Can you elaborate on this "hidden army" you refer to? Are they related to antifa, black lives matter or this new mega people talk about? Do they also burn, rape and pillage like black lives matter and antifa did?

@MayCaesar

You seem to like to moderate debates and I appreciate that. But if its careful debating you are moderating, then why didn´t you critique Factfinder on his first remark back that appears to be .... ready for the complex word? Gaslighting. I´m interested in your analysis of Facfinder´s debate tactics.

Openminded

Argument Topic: You previously attributed me and some other people who do not support Trump to the "team Trump". It seems to me that you do it with everyone who disagrees with you even a little. "Team Trump" might as well be defined as "people who disagree with @Openminded on something". Which leaves the question unanswered: again, what is this "hidden army"? It is a metaphor of what? What does it represent? Who is demonstrably a member of it?

@MayCaesar

I sometimes come in late in a debate and I mention others as a way to include all in the active debate. Now I know Jack is not a trump supporter but I also included him.

I´ve already explained my views on the hidden army and trumpism. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: I'll oblige you, crazy. Got quotes? Trump derangement syndrome...

@MayCaesar
Again, a Factfinder response. Silly name calling. Maybe you would like to critique this one also?

Openminded

@Factfinder

I am interested in what you believe socialism and marxism are?

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

I am interested in what you believe socialism and marxism are?

They are one in the same. I'll give a link to read up on it but unless you do some soul searching you will not see how the left has adopted Marx and Engels teaching into modern liberalism. The source as you will see isn't too technical as it's Wikipedia but it's to the point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism You'll notice marx actually used socialism and marxism interchangeably. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: You do not choose reality at all, do not kid yourself.

@MayCaesar

You do not choose reality at all, do not kid yourself. You see the world as a battlefield of classes and privileged/oppressed groups. I also tend to be idealistic - I see the world as a collection of awesome individuals who sometimes step on a dark path, but whose goodness does not change over it - but, at least, my view is based on certain objective observations, such as the fact that the overwhelming majority of interactions between individuals are non-confrontational. I am not sure what observations, other than those of your TV screen, have produced your outlook.


Admittedly, I am befuddled by the enduring trump supporter. As I said, first time Trump support was understandable - but now? Is my view really that surprising to you? I am a realist and in touch with reality.  I hold onto hope and humanity and the great experiment we are all collectively living. I am a good, kind, decent person. I fight for those less fortunate always. I simply believe many unsuspecting Americans have been indoctrinated into Trump´s cult and trumpism. And it sure feels like it is infiltrating. And it´s da+mn scary. I will continue to proudly fight like a warrior to save America from authoritarianism.

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar
Again, a Factfinder response. Silly name calling. Maybe you would like to critique this one also?

Says you. Again, jack said "call me crazy" when his prediction fails to unfold and it did fail. That's why I said I'd oblige. Why don't you help him out since you seemed to be doing that (or trying to) and produce quotes of trump saying what jack claims?

Factfinder

Not everyone who disagrees with your views has trumpism. @Openminded It's not trump many of us support. It's the free market system and policies that allow America to be the powerhouse it is. That's where a lot of our support lies. You've seen me criticise trump, I even say he should be charged with dereliction of duty. Capitalism has faults but it's the best we have right now. It calls for individuals to be free to navigate their lives to secure their futures as they see fit. Socialism is the exact opposite. Honestly, look how you think you should be able to tell people in other states to live. That's not constitutional. We are a representative republic and not a majority rules democracy for a reason. 

Openminded

Argument Topic: As you know @Openminded Jack asked to be called crazy when his crazy perdition doesn't pan out.

@Factfinder

My blind socialism? And my scathing attacks? MY indoctrinated views? Preconceived notions? Socialism/communism is the goal? 

My notions are neither scathing or preconceived. They were thoughtfully conveyed and the evidence continues to be his supporters´ delusions.

I give you an A+ for Trumpism tactics and a resounding A++ for Gish Gallop!

Sweet J_E_S_U_S. we are living in dystopian times.

Where is MayCaesar? We need some analysis here.

Factfinder

You need analyses not I. @Openminded

You use thoughtfully constructed sweeping statements, call people names, avoid answering direct questions,  and use ad hominems. And you add in a lot of debate fallacies you seemed to have recently just learned of. All of which comes across as verbiage with little substance as @MayCaesar correctly alluded to. 

Openminded

@Factfinder

I have just one question for you if you will.

Will you be voting for Trump 2024?

MichaelElpers

@Openminded

"Does trump have a secret army?  I replied that I believed that ¨army¨ was a metaphor for his unconditional, loyal supporters. Because I write words you may not, does not mean I am trying to make them look complex. Give me a break. Yes, there appears to be unconditional trump support. Anyone paying attention knows that."

If everyone paying attention knows how is his army.

Ill go back to Trump is a result of the left wanting to federalize every issue.  When as a conservative you are fighting for issues on state or more local levels but those issues can supplanted by sweeping federal legislation you get aggressive swing tp counter.
This is not the way the country was intended to be run. We need more power to govern at the local level.

We need candidates who want to decrease the power of government not increase it.  Unfortunately its much harder to hold onto liberties than to take it away.

Factfinder

I will vote for any republican that's on the ticket. I hoped it would be DeSantis or Hailey. @Openminded If it's trump, then him. Because I know their policies are better for America then bidens destructive policies. 

Now let me ask you a question if you will: Are you now going to call me a trumpster? And raddle on about trumpism? Or are you going to try to understand the perspective of others and practice the art of self evaluation? That's how I became persuaded on other things like climate change and religion. 

Openminded

@Factfinder

You are correct. Not everyone who disagrees with me has trumpism. And I do admit that I am scared at the possibility he will be our next President and possibly our last one. This scares the bejesus out of me as well as millions of Americans. And admittedly, I have over identified with that position. But since Trump came down that elevator I have felt uneasy about the trajectory America has taken. Capitalism and Free Market is good, but exploitation of Americans for excessive wealth is not good. I believe we´ve gone too far in that direction. I also believe that the word socialism has been over used as a fear mongering technique. I think we´ve reached a reckoning and we have to right ourselves in America. I´ve lived many years and the past eight years have been the most troubling years of my life. Is this all Trump? No. Technology advances, social media, the forgotten and marginalized Americans, globalization complexities, and the populism of Trump were the perfect storm. My question asking if you would vote for trump is one of curiosity. Along with the truly manipulated Trump supporters, are also the Trump supporters who say they don´t like him, but support his policies. I´m curious to hear your stance on this.

MayCaesar

Openminded said:

While admittedly I am not a seasoned debater, I do believe what I wrote contained substance. The question posed was ... Does trump have a secret army?  I replied that I believed that ¨army¨ was a metaphor for his unconditional, loyal supporters. Because I write words you may not, does not mean I am trying to make them look complex. Give me a break. Yes, there appears to be unconditional trump support. Anyone paying attention knows that. No I am not insinuating that everyone who disagrees with me on his presidency belongs to a group - only his army of unconditional supporters.

Trump and his brand of ¨trumpism¨ is spreading.  His supporters have adopted and normalized it. 

I believe I write thoughtfully and research things before posting.  I wrote carefully about my understanding of Trump´s loyal followers and why I thought a vote for him the first time was okay. Surely there are numerous posts on here that are deserving of critique but what´s up MayCaesar that you pick apart my posts? 

I pick apart everyone's posts. I place huge importance on precision and accuracy, and when someone makes unfounded claims, I offer a critique - this is what I am here for, to wrestle in logic. Nothing @Factfinder wrote here seemed as illogical to me as what you wrote in your comment. If he posts something similarly illogical, I will point it out.

As for the substance, it is not enough to just express your opinion. For a solid debate contribution, you have to also explain what led you to that opinion; what evidence supports it; why anyone should take it as something more than "it's just like your opinion, man". I do not see how your reasoning explains the fact that tens of millions of people support Trump today. Is the only condition for being a member of this army "unconditional support"? Let me accept this definition; how do you prove that someone's support for Trump is unconditional? "Unconditional support" is a very serious claim, it implies that there is absolutely nothing in this world that can make one change their mind on the issue - what are your grounds for claiming that there are people like that?

Openminded said:

Admittedly, I am befuddled by the enduring trump supporter. As I said, first time Trump support was understandable - but now? Is my view really that surprising to you? I am a realist and in touch with reality.  I hold onto hope and humanity and the great experiment we are all collectively living. I am a good, kind, decent person. I fight for those less fortunate always. I simply believe many unsuspecting Americans have been indoctrinated into Trump´s cult and trumpism. And it sure feels like it is infiltrating. And it´s da+mn scary. I will continue to proudly fight like a warrior to save America from authoritarianism.

Oh, it is not surprising at all. Rather, it makes me assume that you do not have a lot of experience in life overall if you truly cannot understand how people may have a very different assessment of Trump's qualities as president than you. For one, under Trump the economical performance of the country was arguably best since Clinton - and while there is an argument to be made that Trump is not to be credited for it (this is actually my argument, and I have gotten under heat from a couple of Trump supporters on this website for it), is it that puzzling to you how someone can connect the two?

Trump certainly has created quite a personality cult in the best traditions of "soft-authoritarian" countries such as Italy under Berlusconi or Hungary under Orban. Yet the anti-Trump cult that sees evil conspiracies and hidden agents everywhere is no less atrocious. In human history quite a few monstrous regimes were created as a result of people believing that, to oppose a specific evil, anything is justified. The original authoritarian regimes were typically much softer, than what was created in opposition to them. Trump is just a very good showman; if people who oppose him the most come to power, though, it will be a true nightmare. Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris as president? Yuck...

MichaelElpers

@Factfinder

I agree with you on Desantis, not so much on Haley.  She doesnt have convictions to values.  Just seems to sway to whatever will get her the most support.
Im ok if someones values change but Haley consistently lies that shes never supported policies.  In my opinion was not good in debates, plays into intersextionality, wanted government ids in socialcmedia and has too many ties to defense contractors. She is my least favorite candidate in the republican race.

Factfinder

@MichaelElpers

Interesting. I'll have to look deeper into her. Just liked her spunk when she refused to concede for so long in Arizona. But I had heard things like she was of the corporate republican old guard of sorts. But it's looking like it will be trump anyway. Then we're stuck voting for the lesser of two evils again. I agree Desantis would have been the best choice.

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

You are correct. Not everyone who disagrees with me has trumpism. And I do admit that I am scared at the possibility he will be our next President and possibly our last one. This scares the bejesus out of me as well as millions of Americans. And admittedly, I have over identified with that position. But since Trump came down that elevator I have felt uneasy about the trajectory America has taken. Capitalism and Free Market is good, but exploitation of Americans for excessive wealth is not good. I believe we´ve gone too far in that direction. I also believe that the word socialism has been over used as a fear mongering technique. I think we´ve reached a reckoning and we have to right ourselves in America. I´ve lived many years and the past eight years have been the most troubling years of my life. Is this all Trump? No. Technology advances, social media, the forgotten and marginalized Americans, globalization complexities, and the populism of Trump were the perfect storm. My question asking if you would vote for trump is one of curiosity. Along with the truly manipulated Trump supporters, are also the Trump supporters who say they don´t like him, but support his policies. I´m curious to hear your stance on this.

Well my stance is pretty simple really. Trumps personality? Slime, no doubt about it. But yes his policies were good for the average american in the overall work force. The middle class grew under trump. The left seek to fleece it. They claim they're going to make the rich (1%) to pay, but there's a lot more money in taxing the middle class. https://waysandmeans.house.gov/trump-tax-cuts-results-part-three-bigger-paychecks/

Openminded

Argument Topic: Well my stance is pretty simple really. Trumps personality? Slime, no doubt about it.

@Factfinder

So, the man you´ll vote for as POTUS - the face of American democracy who is trusted to uphold the hopes and dreams of its citizens  - is slime?

By the way, if you are middle class, that tax break you´ve enjoyed since 2019 will end on 12/31/25. But if you´re wealthy, you can continue enjoying even more $.

The link your provided is from 2020 during trump´s reign - most definitely written with a trumpism spin.

And yeah, there´s more money in taxing the middle. Quit your Mind F_CK_ing.

The fact that you would vote for slime tells me what I need to know about the typical trump supporters´ character.

Yes, character matters and therein lies our problem in America.

Openminded

Argument Topic: As for the substance, it is not enough to just express your opinion.

@MayCaesar

The question was a metaphorical one. There was no black/white proof to offer. 

Well, that´s the question. Why DO millions still support this man? I have theories. 1) ignorance 2) greed and 3) weak character = the unconditional trump supporter

And yes, my claim does imply that nothing in the world will change a Trump supporter´s mind. Does 91 indictments and likely imprisonment and an insurrection he incited ring a bell for you?

I do believe we have lots of MIND F__U__*_K_ing going on on this site.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Oh, it is not surprising at all. Rather, it makes me assume that you do not have a lot of experience in life overall if you truly cannot understand how people may have a very different assessment of Trump's qualities as president than you.

@MayCaesar

Oh, it is not surprising at all. Rather, it makes me assume that you do not have a lot of experience in life overall if you truly cannot understand how people may have a very different assessment of Trump's qualities as president than you. For one, under Trump the economical performance of the country was arguably best since Clinton - and while there is an argument to be made that Trump is not to be credited for it (this is actually my argument, and I have gotten under heat from a couple of Trump supporters on this website for it), is it that puzzling to you how someone can connect the two?

Well I do believe my life´s experiences are plenty. I am a good judge of character. I can sense weak minds and weak characters quite adeptly.

As I see it :  the typical trump supporter =  1) ignorance 2) greed 3) weak character

Trump lowered taxes for the wealthy indefinitely while he lowered taxes for the lower and middle class with a termination date of 12/31/25. According to many sources, Trump added $7.8 Trillion to our national debt.

And yes, I can connect the two in this instance:
The typical trump supporter =  1) ignorance 2) greed 3) weak character

https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/

President Donald Trump’s signature tax bill,26 enacted when Republicans gained control of the White House and both houses of Congress in 2017, will have cost roughly $1.7 trillion by the end of fiscal year 2023. These tax cuts reduced personal income tax rates and permanently lowered the corporate tax rate, among other changes. Despite being paired with a further expansion of the child tax credit, the 2017 changes also largely benefited the wealthy, once again making the U.S. tax code significantly more regressive.27

Trump certainly has created quite a personality cult in the best traditions of "soft-authoritarian" countries such as Italy under Berlusconi or Hungary under Orban. Yet the anti-Trump cult that sees evil conspiracies and hidden agents everywhere is no less atrocious. In human history quite a few monstrous regimes were created as a result of people believing that, to oppose a specific evil, anything is justified. The original authoritarian regimes were typically much softer, than what was created in opposition to them. Trump is just a very good showman; if people who oppose him the most come to power, though, it will be a true nightmare. Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris as president? Yuck...

The anti Trump cult? Didn´t know about that cult. I just thought Americans who don´t support him is because he´s a fraud. And we don´t like fraudulent POTUS´s.

As a non trump supporter and knowing many other non trump supporters, I can tell you none of us believe in conspiracy theories. Ha ha

For someone who´s all over improper debating tactics, you sure have broken the rules.

As I said, there´s lots of Mind FU____*King going on here.

Openminded

Argument Topic: Ill go back to Trump is a result of the left wanting to federalize every issue.

@MichaelElpers

Ill go back to Trump is a result of the left wanting to federalize every issue.  When as a conservative you are fighting for issues on state or more local levels but those issues can supplanted by sweeping federal legislation you get aggressive swing tp counter.
This is not the way the country was intended to be run. We need more power to govern at the local level.

Yes, the left is annoying as he¨LL. And I agree with governing at the local level first.

The old grievance - more government for the left, less for the right - of course this still stands.

 I understand why Trump was elected the first time. But not a second time. It´s a cult now.

The left is not the solution. Socialism is not the solution. Progressivism is not the solution. Taking care of the lazy is not the solution.

The right is not the solution. Deregulation is not the solution. Tax cuts for the wealthy is not the solution. Nationalism is not the solution.

TRUMP IS NOT THE SOLUTION to fixing the above. That´s the point.

The way I see it - it will be a choice between the lesser of two evils.

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

So, the man you´ll vote for as POTUS - the face of American democracy who is trusted to uphold the hopes and dreams of its citizens  - is slime?

By the way, if you are middle class, that tax break you´ve enjoyed since 2019 will end on 12/31/25. But if you´re wealthy, you can continue enjoying even more $.

The link your provided is from 2020 during trump´s reign - most definitely written with a trumpism spin.

And yeah, there´s more money in taxing the middle. Quit your Mind F_CK_ing.

The fact that you would vote for slime tells me what I need to know about the typical trump supporters´ character.

Yes, character matters and therein lies our problem in America.

Face palm. Yes, It would will be less slime then the "face of democracy" that we have now. 

Correct. The trump tax cuts will go away and your slimy commy friends will no doubt shrink the size of the middle class again. My legit source backed up my argument trump policies are better for the working class. And you inadvertently agreed with here without realizing it.

Because I'm truly openminded; I stand corrected. Thank you, thanks to the lefts policy making they've made the 1% more wealthy than the middle class. I see you think you've learned how to apply another new term...

The fact you'd vote for the perverted child groping America hating slimy commy in chief we have now tells me all I need to know about liberals.

Yes, character matters...

Openminded

Argument Topic: Face palm.

@Factfinder

Correct. The trump tax cuts will go away and your slimy commy friends will no doubt shrink the size of the middle class again. My legit source backed up my argument trump policies are better for the working class. And you inadvertently agreed with here without realizing it. 

I´m not quite sure what you mean with the above? I said the Trump tax cuts for middle class will end but did not break it down - ALSO the lower and working class tax cuts will end on 12/31/25. The tax cuts for the wealthy will continue. So no trump´s tax cuts will also end for the working class. He giveth the little guy a carrot to suck on and then he´ll taketh away while continuing to enjoy his life long tax cuts or until congress changes this.

Because I'm truly openminded; I stand corrected. Thank you, thanks to the lefts policy making they've made the 1% more wealthy than the middle class. I see you think you've learned how to apply another new term...

How did the lefts´ policy make the rich wealthier? Hah?

The fact you'd vote for the perverted child groping America hating slimy commy in chief we have now tells me all I need to know about liberals.

Sweet J_E_S_U_S. The media has you so far from grounded. He´s a grandpa and grandpas love their granddaughters and other little children. I was sitting on my Grampa´s lap when I was 10. My Grampa kissed and hugged me as he did my sisters and cousins. Leave it to a trump supporter to turn a lovable old grandpa into a pervertion. Everything is nefarious to a trump supporter it seems. Has the media done this to you? Do you actually believe that Biden gropes children? Can you discern truth from fiction?  Will you be able to weed out the AI-generated robo calls coming your way? You better start learning to see truth for truth and evil for evil or youĺl be so lost in life. AI is here. Learn to think. Gullible, unable to discern truth from doctored photos, vulnerable.

Yes, character matters...

The character of the president certainly matters. Just as the character of the voter matters. You asserted that you are willing to vote for Trump even if he´s a slimy character. That to me explains the weak character of his supporters.

America is truly F__C K ED if you are representative of the average Trump voter.

Factfinder

Do you have anything to add based in reality @Openminded? You do know this is a debate site and not facebook, right?