Was the U.S built on racism, hate, and violence?

Factfinder

@elijah44

nope

Putin

Yes, and that's why it should be destroyed.

Factfinder

@Putin

As was your mind?

Putin

@Factfinder
My mind was build on violent video games. There's nothing anyone can do about that.

Putin

@Factfinder
Frankly I'm sorry, I thought Navalny would respawn.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: In Many Ways

Historically, the founding of the United States involved colonization, displacement, and violence against Indigenous peoples. Slavery was central to its early economy and societal structure. Racial discrimination and segregation remained deeply ingrained for centuries. These systemic injustices cannot be ignored.

Dreamer

Watch PBS 4 part special slavery making of America and read Charles Mann 1491. Chattel slavery of Black people and theft of indigenous lands, the answer is yes.

Barnardot

@elijah44 Well of coarse America was built on that stuff and thats nothing to be proud of. But tell me a nation that wasn't built like that. The Brits for example make America look like Disneyland. They were built on the most horrendous racism hate and viloence that ever was. They killed any one who went against the church. They rapped and tortured whiches and sent little kids to do slavery in factories.  And what about the cool and pleasant civilized Scandinavians. They pillaged and raped villages the hole time. And they would kill there daughters if they had too many. The new born boys were chucked on a hill for 3 days to see if they survived to grow up strong.

Dreamer

@Barnardot

Comparing the US to Britain is whataboutism red herring. Saying all nations did something they were not proud of is false equivalence. Also, there were nations that weren't so bad. Many of the American Indian nations were clearly more moral than the Britain and US. For example

"The most democratic forms of government that any of the convention members had personally encountered were those of Native American nations. Of particular interest was the Iroquois Confederacy, which historians have argued wielded a significant influence on the U.S. Constitution."

https://www.history.com/news/iroquois-confederacy-influence-us-constitution

Overall, Europe tends to be more brutal than the Americans before Columbus.

just_sayin

None of the founding 13 colonies charters mention race, hate or violence.  So no.  Was race, hate and violence present, yes.  Was that what it was founded on.  No.  Race grifters will say otherwise.  They will ignore that slavery was practiced everywhere and that Africans enslaved more white people (look up Barbary pirates) than the US enslaved Black people.  They will ignore that the first slaves/servants in the US were white.  They will ignore that Indian tribes slaughtered other Indian tribes and enslaved them and took their lands. These details are unwelcome for their grifting agenda.

@Bogan - I know you have tried to be the #1 racist on this site, but there are others, who are far bigger race peddlers than you could ever be.  They justify discriminating against people because of their race, if they are white or Asian, in admissions, hiring, promotions, benefits, access, and in awarding awards, grants, or contracts.  They are the biggest racists in the US today for they have influenced college universities, schools, businesses, and even parts of the law with their perverted racist beliefs. They believe their racism is good racism and that it is holy racism and should not be criticized for the unjust treatment it gives individuals.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;    Saying all nations did something they were not proud of is false equivalence.

I disagree.   To start with, you are implying that Europeans are somehow different to everybody else.    That is called "racism."   
 

Dreamer quote       Also, there were nations that weren't so bad. Many of the American Indian nations were clearly more moral than the Britain and US. 

Primitive tribes may or may not be more democratic or humane, but the life of the typical primitive was usually "hard, brutish, and short."      The little cartoon which you submitted to justify your anti European race hatred had a lot of truth in it, it just did not mention a lot of things contrary to the "hate the Europeans" mindset.     To start with, a  lot of those lovely native American tribes were so brutal that they could have taught Ghengis Khan a thing or to about brutality.    Why did your cartoon not mention the human sacrifices of the dominant South American tribes?       In addition, as historically correctly portrayed in the movie 'The Black Robe". some native American tribes delighted in torturing their captives to death in the slowest and most painful ways.   

  In addition, although most educated Europeans knew that the world was much bigger than Columbus thought, it was at least worth a try to see if India and China could be reached by sailing west.     The Spanish had already discovered that there were groups of Islands in the mid Atlantic which could be used as stepping stones to reach much farther west, and they correctly assumed that there could be more.    As a matter of fact, the reason why Columbus chose a more southerly route was to take advantage of the island chains that the Spanish already knew about (some which they had colonised) , to take on water and food.   

The reason why the Europeans sailed west (and also sailed around Africa) was because of the Muslim blockade of European trade with India and China.      Because of their geographic location at the juncture of all the known continents, the Muslims were in an ideal position to dominate world trade.    And they took advantage of that fact to prevent Europe, Africa, China, and India from trading with each other.     But your little cartoon did not mention that, because portraying Muslims as bad guys instead of the hated Europeans, is not what your neo_MArxist commissars want to spread around.  

jack

elijah44 said:

Was the U.S built on racism, hate, and violence?

Hello e:

We aspire for greatness, and we were making good progress too.  But, you can't achieve greatness built on those three pillars.   However, before Trump along, we were making good progress.  Now, he wants to take away every freedom we have and turn us into a Christian National country..

If you drank the kool-aid, throw it up!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism

excon

Bogan

@JulesKorngold ;   Historically, the founding of the United States involved colonization, displacement,.... 

Which makes it no different from any other nation,   How it did differ, is that it resulted in the free-est most prosperous, and technically advanced nation on earth, where 8 million illegal immigrants in the past 3 years from sheethole countries want to live.  
  

JK quote  and violence against Indigenous peoples. 
  
 You seem to be suggesting that the human beings who made up indigenous tribes were somehow different from everybody else?     Such a premise is not only racist, it is also historically wrong.     Most indigenous tribes had held their lands since the day that their tribe had either expelled or exterminated the previous owner,      The desire of large and powerful  tribes to expand into the lands of smaller and weaker tribes is a cultural universal.     It is part of the human condition.   
  

JK wrote       Slavery was central to its early economy and societal structure.

Which hardly made the USA unique     What did make the USA unique, was that it fought a civil war to abolish slavery, when most other nations of the world still considered slavery to be the natural law of nature.   
.   

JK quote      Racial discrimination and segregation remained deeply ingrained for centuries. 

And still is today.  There are today around 150 "blacks only" university campuses in the USA , and no "whites only" campuses.      DEI is racial discrimination based upon skin colour,   If you are so concerned about discrimination, why are you not complaining about "blacks only" campuses?    And the fact that today, whites and Asians get racially discriminated against by blacks in job allocations and university admissions?   
  

JK quote       These systemic injustices cannot be ignored.

Neither can they be grossly exaggerated in order to push a European hating narrative which is based upon cherry picking historical facts.  .   

MayCaesar

The US was built on the spirit of adventurous individuals seeking to build a new life on the frontier, to escape the traditionalist and religiously oppressive societies of Europe, to do away with the idea of "God-given mandate" justifying the monarch's rule and replace it with the idea of people-given mandate. "No taxation without representation" encapsulates the essence of this political system, and "we find these truth to be self-evident..." captures the different mode of societal organization.

That aberrations such as slavery and extermination of the native population took place is not something specific to the American system, but, rather, something that carried over from the systems American system sought to escape. It is no accident that the US was the country that took the most drastic measures in human history towards eradicating slavery, culminating in the bloody Civil War, and that nowadays this is arguably the least racist country in the world, that has seen a black president and a black secretary of state, in which interracial marriage rate is the highest in the world. It does not excuse the racist past of this country, but it certainly puts it into a different perspective.

Unfortunately, nowadays racism in the US is on the rise. Racism of a different, retributive nature. Where racism is exercised not through dominance in the society, but through public shaming and insidious encroachments into organizations across the board. When in the early 2000-s it seemed that finally the racial question was put to rest, nowadays "race" is one of the most widely discussed topics in the US, and every single job application requires you to indicate your "race".

I do think that it is a temporary phenomenon - give it a couple of generations, and everyone will laugh at the notion of differentiating people by "race" - but at present it is an unwelcome development.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

This country will always be dealing with racism as long as there is a political party willing to exploit this countries failures for personal and political gain. 

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   @Bogan - I know you have tried to be the #1 racist on this site, but there are others, who are far bigger race peddlers than you could ever be. 

I would say that we are equals, although I admit that I am racist, while they would claim to be vehemently anti racist.      They justify their own racism by claiming that the only possible reason why their pet race is dysfunctional, is because of white racism.     Which, if you believe that all races are equal, makes a lot of sense.     And those white despising people can use you to support their premise that races are equal.     You are helping them to justify their own racism because you claim that some obscure religious text makes you believe that all are equal before your non existent God. 

 

Just-sayin quote         They justify discriminating against people because of their race, if they are white or Asian, in admissions, hiring, promotions, benefits, access, and in awarding awards, grants, or contracts. 

Yes, and you know what?     Unlike yourself, most of them already know that their races have low IQ and a genetic predisposition to violent behaviour.    I know that because I read anti racist Paul Breggins book “The War Against Children” where Breggin bragged that the NAACP had lobbied the US Congress to withhold any government funding to any geneticist who was investigating any links to genetics and crime.      Why would any group of people want to shut down scientific research on a very important matter?     Answer, because they knew that if the scientists looked for a genetic link, they would find one.   Then their entire profitable grievance industry would be out of business.      You are supporting a principle which even the leaders of the so called “oppressed” dysfunctional minorities themselves know is not true.

 

Just-sayin quote  They are the biggest racists in the US today for they have influenced college universities, schools, businesses, and even parts of the law with their perverted racist beliefs. They believe their racism is good racism and that it is holy racism and should not be criticized for the unjust treatment it gives individuals.

 What they are doing is justifying their racist morality by claiming that the reason why their races are dysfunctional is because of white racism.     And they base that morality upon a “fact” which you agree with.      If all races are equal, then the fact that their races are dysfunctional can ONLY be caused by white racism.     Therefore, they are simply using fire to fight fire.     It is a powerful argument, and it has been very successful for their cause.     Many white people, especially in the upper classes where they don’t have much social contact with dysfunctional races, believe it.      One reason why they believe it is because we live in an age of narcissism where pretending to be a virtuous individual is part of the personality make up of upper class people.     Just how shallow that façade was, was demonstrated (rather hilariously) when Governor Ron De Santis sent two planeloads of illegal immigrants to Marthas Vineyard.     The very rich people there who fashionably had brass signs in their front gardens proclaiming Marthas Vineyard to be a “sanctuary city”, got mugged by reality when the two planes turned up.     Despite their fashionable advocacy of human equality, they could not get their social inferiors off the island quick enough.

Bogan

The first 100 companies listed in the USA's Fortune 500 list have DEI departments and most of them run "educational courses" for white employees to make them aware of how ashamed they should be of their race.     The logic that they use to justify this insanity is something that you agree with.   If all races are equal, then the ONLY possible reason for minority dysfunction must be "whiteness", "white solidarity", and "white discrimination."

elijah44

@Bogan, I am a Japanese-American, I am proud of my white side. I don’t understand why people say they are ashamed to be white, since we can change from the past. Also it wasn’t just white people who did awful things, many races have. So I do agree with you on that.

Bogan

@elijah44

@Bogan, I am an Japanese-American, I am proud of my white side. I don’t understand why people say they are ashamed to be white, since we can change from the past. Also it wasn’t just white people who did awful things, many races have. So I do agree with you on that.

 Good question.  See?     Asian people are smart.    I could probably write a 2000 word article on that, but I will try and keep it brief

 My own opinion, is that there are many reasons why so many white people today self flagellate.     To begin with, white society has had it so good for so long, that most young people think that it is a natural law of nature.     That is why they support such ideas as destroying their own economies by insisting that their governments tip their lances at the Anthropomorphic Climate Change cult.   Most young people, especially those employed in secure government jobs, just can not fathom that their own societies could go bankrupt.   Although the Greens in Germany now seem to have been mugged by reality.       What do the Chinese say?   “Third generation no good.” 

 Next, we live in an age of Narcissism where pretending that you are better than everybody else is the name of the game.    How shallow that thinking really is, can be recognised when you understand that Australia’s wokest suburb, the Sydney suburb of Darlinghurst, has the highest rate of cocaine use according to sewerage analysis.    So, you get a bunch of young lefties proudly proclaiming how intellectually and morally superior they are, while simultaneously purchasing the product of South America’s narcotrafficantes, arguable the lowest specimens of humanity on the planet.

 So, now we now get to class distinction.      University educated people are not always they best paid, and a lot of low paid university grads like teachers and low level civil service functionaries bitterly resent the fact that plumbers and bricklayers make much more money than them.     They deal with this by snobbery.   University grads, specially of the low wage kind, are usually the biggest snobs around.  They have a pathological need to display to their inferiors just how superior they are, and to also display their class solidarity.      But rich or poor, educated elites who live in the upper echelons of society are obsessed with status and the trappings of status.    They have to drive the right car, and live in the right suburbs.       They have to speak with plummy accents to display to the Great Unwashed how even the way they speak is different from the hoi polloi.   And lastly, they need to display the “right” political convictions.     One way to do that is to oppose everything that every one else in society supports.

  If working class and lower middle class people are patriotic, then the elites will be unpatriotic and never stop finding fault in their own countries.   If anyone with common sense supports Israel, they will go into bat for terrorists.      If most people in society prefer their own races, then the elites will become the champions of minority groups, and even self flagellate to show how committed they are to their holy cause of non racism.      They can be relied upon the man the barricades and chant the slogans of every left wing cause imaginable.  So, we end up in a society where the socialists are the socialites.      One also suspects, that their advocacy for left wing causes are because so many of them are the offspring of wealthy families.    They have a lot of guilt over the fact that they did not just get born with a silver spoon in their mouths, they got the whole silver service.    ‘White guilt”, you could say.   Pretending that they are the champions of illegal immigrants and minorities is how they compensate for that.  Although just how shallow that is, could be seen by the reaction to Governor Ron De Santis sending two planeloads of illegal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard.     The rich liberals there could not get the illegals off their turf quick enough. 

 Thirty years of thinking like this means that a lot of low level managers with these attitudes in industry and government, have now risen to the tops of their industries, government departments, and professions.     But they have lived within their liberal bubbles for so long, within their gated communities and leafy, beachside suburbs, and they are so convinced of their own infallibility, that their thinking has degenerated into pure hubris.     This thinking is now backfiring because the peasants are revolting.      Too may woke companies have alienated their own customers with the woke advocacy and are suffering because of it.     Here in Australia, the CEO of our largest supermarket chain resigned because of the backlash from the public towards his companies activism towards a couple of politically divisive issues.     His supermarket chain refused to sell items relating to our national holiday, and their advertising media refused to even acknowledge Australia Day.       At the same time, their advertisers crowed about Ramadan, the Chinese New Year, and the Indian national Independence Day.  Unsurprisingly, the incensed Australian public took their business elsewhere.    Go woke, go broke.  

elijah44

@Bogan, I am a non-political person, except my views kind of go more left than right. I really don’t get into this type of stuff, but I sort of agree and disagree with you. Narcissism has been seen in history quite a lot, but it has been influenced more recently, by I’m not really sure, could be politics, could be technology, but I really don’t know. Also, I used to be liberal but now it’s just extremists on both sides, so I try to stay in the middle. But, really I do see stupidity in both parties.

Factfinder

@elijah44

 ...But, really I do see stupidity in both parties.

That is a rare ability. Nourish and cherish it as people argue along party lines. Good comes from both sides too. But even at that the importance of objectivity will save your sanity.

Bogan

@elijah44

Well, I used to be a lefty anti racist, until the day that I realised that those who were the most staunch anti racists, were in fact extremely racist.    Racist towards white people.   My people.     That was when I reached the "tipping point" where I began to see things entirely in the light of logic and reason.     Even as a young lefty, I never agreed with the left's reflexive hatred of, our country our people, our culture. or our flag.   It was the constant attack upon my people and it's institutions which originally got me wondering about the Left?   It is said that if you are not a lefty by the time you are 20, you don't have a heart.   If you are still a lefty by the time you are 30, you don't have a brain.      I concur with that little slogan. 

My opinion today, is that I am a right winger because from my point of view, Democrat states in the USA and Labor states in Australia are run by economic illiterates as well as elmer Gantry types practicing Tammany Hall politics with immigration.      The proof is in the pudding.   Democrat run states and cities in the USA are sheetholes, while in Australia, we get a flip flop effect where the consevatives take government and fix the economy, only to have the Left win the next election and ruin everything again..   Repeat add infinitum. 

Barnardot

@Bogan ; They justify their own racism by claiming that the only possible reason why their pet race is dysfunctional, is because of white racism.   

Well okay then and since you have all ways said that you all ways answer questions I would like to know what you propose we should do to make Blacks and Abos more functional.