Should abortion be legal or illegal?

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 Life begins at conception...

Life does not begin at conception of the female egg however in the contexed of some religion they tell us it is the possibly location where some demonic possession of a humn souls occure, the birth of children conceived by angels who had been cast down from the heavens by GOD, or the anti-Christ may begin.

@John_C_87 ; Yes, life begins at conception.

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

No, all human life begins at the birth of the egg inside the women. The birth is internal. Conception on the other hand is only a time in a human life, the duration rests between when the egg is born, and the life already started extended pass a woman’s normal menstrual cycle.

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

It could have nothing to do with argument for some, but you have specifically accosted me for stating a fact that abortion is the ending of a human life. Therefore you have prompted the discussion/distinction to be made.

"I don't struggle with that."

Great.  Youve agreed cells are alive and thus the fetus is as well.  Weve concluded the fetus is by definition alive.  Now about human life.

"We are talking about human life"
Agreed.
Now if you could tell me how a fetus isnt a human as it is literally by definition one of the developmental stages of the human organism that would be great. 
Im looking for any biological, scientific, or philisophical stance here that would show the fetus is not a member of the species homosapiens. Please dont just appeal to authority.

Abortion is the killing of a human fetus, that is a fact. If that makes you feel guilty that is on you.
If you can soundly conclude a fetus is in no relation correlatee to human life why would that statement make you or anyone else feel guilty?
You could claim im murdering fingernails when i cut them off, but that would never make me feel guilty, unless perhaps you had a convincing argumrnt.

John_C_87

@MichaelElpers
Great.  Youve agreed cells are alive and thus the fetus is as well.  Weve concluded the fetus is by definition alive.  Now about human life.

I hate doing this to you MichaelElpers in the context with science a fetus is a duration of time between stages of human’s existence as posterity only. It is the ongoing connection to established justice The reason why the meaning of life and its importance has changed is as I have said a Constitutional right describes something that is the correct way to achieve an objective so when miss used and translated by interpretations into a criminal law can create more criminal issues then resolved by negotiation.

There was a time when a United States Constitutional right could be written on the child’s life inside the boundaries of a women and normal pregnancy. A further attack against American Constitution by a criminal law imported into America has made it impossible.

Abortion is the killing of a human fetus

Incorret abortion is a imported criminal law brought across an American border to attack the United States Constitution.

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

@MichaelElpers

A cell is the smallest unit that is typically considered alive and is a fundamental unit of life. All living organisms are composed of cells, from just one (unicellular)to many trillions (multicellular). So...A fetus is a living organism composed of cells, specifically those designed to cultivate development of a human organism.

This can be rephrased as: A cell is the smallest unit of measurment that is typically considered alive and is the largest United State held by science for life. All living organisms are comprosed of cells, from just one ( unicellular) to many trillions (mulltiplicellular) So a fetus is aliving organism composed of cell, posterity, specifically thse designed to cultivate development and death of human organisms.

In Barnadots case he seems to struggle to understand that alive doesnt always equal value as having rights under law.

Alive does not mean a living person or posterity can hold a United States Constitutional Right. A criminal law does not depend on the ability for it to be held by the living person or posterity. Something never made clear about the criminal law abortion to the public abstinence also is a type of abortion. Why doesn't the legal definition, medical definition, definition, Google, search or A.I.?

Sorry to interfer John C, but the founders consider the right to life to not be constitutional because it was endowed by their Creator with that right.  The right to life originates from God  and was not needed to be spelled out for that reason -  From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

John_C_87

@just_sayin

There is a lot in what you write, and it is not a bother to hear part or all cause for dissolving a political band between men and men or men and women. The self-evident truth of right once held that creates all men created by Natures GOD equal has been broken by civil court and women seeking executive office.

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ;"I don't struggle with that." Great.  Youve agreed cells are alive and thus the fetus is as well.

Well you can keep putting words in my mouth but it doesn't change what society regards as acceptable and your extreme opinion does not rule and is shared by only a few extremists and is offensive to all descent normal humans. 

Barnardot

@John_C_87 ;The Supreme court has found the law to be unconstitutional by loss of privacy. The loss of privacy cannot be in the establishment of criminal law against the mother, the creator of the egg for she already can be charged with a crime of some type of lethal force. However the egg, the embryo, and fetus have no law restricting them very young from use of otherwise criminal lethal force in this imported criminal law into America.

Okay then what you have got to realize is that based on what Mr Extremist Head @MichaelElpers keeps on going on about add nauseous is that I just might as well start a topic off that says that life begins with the egg. So therefore if a woman doesn't have between 1 and 2 million babies in her lifetime then she is going to go down for one heck of a lot of murder charges.

Oh and don't think guys are off the hook either. I remember when I was a teenager I stared at the Playboy center fold and ended up looking at sperm under my micro scope and low and behold they were actual living things squirming a round. So that by the end of my life time if I havent had 525 billion kids then Im going to end up in court also on more than just a few murder charges. So heres my challenge to you and @MichaelElpers. Do you want me to bring it on? Do you want me to post the topic?

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

No, all human life begins at the birth of the egg inside the women. The birth is internal. Conception on the other hand is only a time in a human life, the duration rests between when the egg is born, and the life already started extended pass a woman’s normal menstrual cycle.

Science disagrees with you as does our Creator and when you advocate for and defend abortion you have the blood of innocence upon your hands and you will be judged most harshly at the Judgment of the Condemned (Revelation 20:10-15). 

 "Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;

Science disagrees with you as does our Creator and when you advocate for and defend abortion you have the blood of innocence upon your hands and you will be judged most harshly at the Judgment of the Condemned (Revelation 20:10-15). 

Our Creator is natures GOD It is legal for it can be walked through and court as a common defense to the general welfare of society. I do not advocate abortion on an imported Criminal law out of Europe which has been brought into America by Christian or Catholic missionaries. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;

Science disagrees with you as does our Creator and when you advocate for and defend abortion you have the blood of innocence upon your hands and you will be judged most harshly at the Judgment of the Condemned (Revelation 20:10-15). 

Our Creator is natures GOD It is legal for it can be walked through and court as a common defense to the general welfare of society. I do not advocate abortion on an imported Criminal law out of Europe which has been brought into America by Christian or Catholic missionaries. 

@John_C_87 ; Again....you and I have run into this inability to communicate a long time ago in this forum...I'm don't know if you're translating into English from another language or where the disconnect is but you MAKE NO SENSE. I'm sorry.

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

You can post it if you want, but its not that hard to note the differences between a fetus and a single sperm and egg. And ill note you didnt actually post any argument or reasoning behind why they would be considered the same.  Nor did you cite any scientist or biologist that suggests they are.

An egg and a sperm only have half of the chromosome required to create a human being.  Meanwhile from conception the zygote has the 46 required chromosomes, with newly created genetic material, and is an entity whose cells are specifically growing and developing as the human organism.  The zygote maintains its identity through change.  The answer to when you were created lies in conception.

Ingredients like sperm and egg as a separate entity do not have these attributes. 
An icecream sandwhich is made of icecream between two cookies.  This doesnt not make the separate components an ice cream sandwhich.

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ; The answer to when you were created lies in conception.

Whatever the way you want to mints words the argument is not about your definition of when I was created its about weather a woman is killing some one before 12 weeks and for all your biological reasoning thousands of qualified scientists and law makers say that your wrong. Not me. Im only the messenger here. So if you want to take your extreme argument to the courts and prove all those experts wrong because you know better than all of them just let us know when the case will be.

Even your terminology of an ice cream sandwich is wrong. According to the experts at Porn Hub the correct term is Cream Pie

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

The courts say nothing about whether or not the fetus is biologically a human life.
There are many reasons people could agree the fetus is a human life and still agree with abortion.
1. They dont agree that the human being has reach a valued status as a person. That could be defined  heartbeat, viability, birth, consciousness for many.
2. Some accept the fetus is a person but regardless the mother still has a right to remove regardless as it is in her body.

Again the majprity agree the fetus is a human bring because that is a biological fact, they just dismiss it as containing proper value as a person under law.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Abortion is an imported law missionaries sent to America, the style law was written by the same type of people who have written and imported into the United States laws of witchcraft that triggered the salem witch hunts. How can you claim a child inside a womb to be innocent, the children murdered their mother before GOD and witnesses of the scientific community. You are simply just unalbe to idetify them for a court of law you thing all babies are cute not deadly. 

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ; they just dismiss it as containing proper value as a person under law.

Well if you want to put it like that that is right but only because of your terminology and the way you have chosen to look at it.

In the end your got to accept that we are humans and we have brains that allow us to make choices and take command of our enviroment for better or for worse. We have to accept weather some like it or not that we can also take away life and we can give life and in the case of abortion we can take away what can become a life. Thats just the way it is. So we have to make rules that every body abides by and the rules are that it is acceptable for a woman to terminate a pregnancy without calling it infanticide. Even nature does it and we call that a miscarriage. But if your going to have extreme thoughts swirling a round your head your going to make extreme conclusions and insulting people by saying that they killed a life is a definite no no. Instead of thinking all the time why are people killing babies why dont you try and think why do people think its okay tyo have an abortion and try to think from there point of view and have empathy for normal descent people instead of micro managing the negativity thats going on inside you?

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Abortion is an imported law missionaries sent to America, the style law was written by the same type of people who have written and imported into the United States laws of witchcraft that triggered the salem witch hunts. How can you claim a child inside a womb to be innocent, the children murdered their mother before GOD and witnesses of the scientific community. You are simply just unalbe to idetify them for a court of law you thing all babies are cute not deadly. 

@John_C_87 ;  You are not psychologically well...

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

My terminolgy is correct.

At one point the U.S. had the 3/5 compromise which only counted 3 out of every 5 slaves towards the population.
Now imagine I was using the same argument as you during that time.  Law and society has determined this, you are an extremist that lacks empathy towards slave owners who are just trying to make a living.

I can have empathy and still come to the realization that abortion is wrong.
If there is a starvimg or homeless person and they steal food from a store, I can empathize but still say that is wrong and should be illegal.
If someone is abused by their father and they murder their father I can empathize but understand that is still wrong and should be illegal.

Saying they killed a human life is a factually correct statement.  I have made all arguments the arguments, citations, analogies to prove this.
Your rebuttals are consistrnt name calling and appeals to authority which never even claim a fetus isnt alive.
You cant take away life from something that is not alive.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 You are not psychologically well...

What are some of the long-standing connections of United States Constitutional right used in a state of the union between abortion and established justice for women with British and European laws on witchcraft. Abortions had been performed by devote women who would end the immigration process between a woman and a Kingdom. I will say not all wiccans that I had studied would do this. I have note ever come across evidence to believe it was a practice of all witches as a united state of criminal law. However, a few women with server emotional disfunctions would use drugs as a form of chemical warfare on men and of wealth and character to trigger uncontrollable hardness in personal places tools for male copulation in which an evil women would become pregnant. These type women would also drug young women with chemicals that would give them hallucinations of sleeping with demons to only be in sold by those women who had drug them to less desirable men of the times. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 You are not psychologically well...

What are some of the long-standing connections of United States Constitutional right used in a state of the union between abortion and established justice for women with British and European laws on witchcraft. Abortions had been performed by devote women who would end the immigration process between a woman and a Kingdom. I will say not all wiccans that I had studied would do this. I have note ever come across evidence to believe it was a practice of all witches as a united state of criminal law. However, a few women with server emotional disfunctions would use drugs as a form of chemical warfare on men and of wealth and character to trigger uncontrollable hardness in personal places tools for male copulation in which an evil women would become pregnant. These type women would also drug young women with chemicals that would give them hallucinations of sleeping with demons to only be in sold by those women who had drug them to less desirable men of the times. 

@John_C_87 ; Abortion is MURDER.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 You are not psychologically well...

What are some of the long-standing connections of United States Constitutional right used in a state of the union between abortion and established justice for women with British and European laws on witchcraft. Abortions had been performed by devote women who would end the immigration process between a woman and a Kingdom. I will say not all wiccans that I had studied would do this. I have note ever come across evidence to believe it was a practice of all witches as a united state of criminal law. However, a few women with server emotional disfunctions would use drugs as a form of chemical warfare on men and of wealth and character to trigger uncontrollable hardness in personal places tools for male copulation in which an evil women would become pregnant. These type women would also drug young women with chemicals that would give them hallucinations of sleeping with demons to only be in sold by those women who had drug them to less desirable men of the times. 

@John_C_87 ; Abortion is MURDER.

So is baby killing. We need secularism to fight back against the evil scourge of christianity. 

1Samuel 15:3  Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and .

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 You are not psychologically well...

What are some of the long-standing connections of United States Constitutional right used in a state of the union between abortion and established justice for women with British and European laws on witchcraft. Abortions had been performed by devote women who would end the immigration process between a woman and a Kingdom. I will say not all wiccans that I had studied would do this. I have note ever come across evidence to believe it was a practice of all witches as a united state of criminal law. However, a few women with server emotional disfunctions would use drugs as a form of chemical warfare on men and of wealth and character to trigger uncontrollable hardness in personal places tools for male copulation in which an evil women would become pregnant. These type women would also drug young women with chemicals that would give them hallucinations of sleeping with demons to only be in sold by those women who had drug them to less desirable men of the times. 

@John_C_87 ; Abortion is MURDER.

So is baby killing. We need secularism to fight back against the evil scourge of christianity. 

1Samuel 15:3  Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and .

@Factfinder ;  You obfuscate in deception and spiritual ignorance...you ARE the one with innocent blood on your hands and your judgement, adjudication, prior to Hell will be most harsh in your unbelief and your advocacy of the mutilation of the unborn as you voted to put these demons in office.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is in the elf book you live by. Not me.

1Samuel 15:3  Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and .

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is in the elf book you live by. Not me.

1Samuel 15:3  Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and .

@Factfinder ;  You have the blood of innocence on your hands...you will reap and sow in Hell.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; Abortion is MURDER.

Abortion is an adaptation of foreign criminal law describing murder. Yes, we have always agreed there with an addition created by a creator is to murder. The process of female amputation / Female specific amputation is a statement of fact describing a medical removal.  You are describing a possible motive for keeping women out of the United States Constitution preventing women from being held with a united state of right. @ least by the facts presented in the Preamble of American Constitution.

The Exsecutive office and Supreme court tried to appeal of judgment backwards through the justice system because of death.

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; Abortion is MURDER.

Abortion is an adaptation of foreign criminal law describing murder. Yes, we have always agreed there with an addition created by a creator is to murder. The process of female amputation / Female specific amputation is a statement of fact describing a medical removal.  You are describing a possible motive for keeping women out of the United States Constitution preventing women from being held with a united state of right. @ least by the facts presented in the Preamble of American Constitution.

The Exsecutive office and Supreme court tried to appeal of judgment backwards through the justice system because of death.

@John_C_87 ; That "medical removal" is murder of a child.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; That "medical removal" is murder of a child.

Only if you do it.
Are you providing a common defense to the general welfare to suport public tranquility. Are you informing the public babies can be listed as a cause of death to some women with or without warning. The perfect Constitutional state of the union you are making is that all children at a certian time of life are mentaly incopetent.

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; That "medical removal" is murder of a child.

Only if you do it.

Unborn children are not property.  They are distinct human individuals.  And every cell of their bodies is different than the progenitor's.

John_C_87

@John_C_87 ; That "medical removal" is murder of a child..

Unborn children are not property.  They are distinct human individuals.  And every cell of their bodies is different than the progenitor's.

It is not murder, as it is not unlawful removal, the child is removed in accordance with law as it has been found mentally incapable of standing trial and must be sent for treatment before it can do so. The connection in the American Constitutional state of the union can be held by a legal grievance of self-defense the constitutional posterity can and is capable to cause harm to the mother. In an American Constitutional state of the union made by science made of when life begins Doctors and science have both agree on information of the mental state of posterity at a certain point in a timeline. The State of Texas common defense to import the criminal law of abortion was made against posterity created by prostitution which was very close to that of witchcraft, and issues of a members of posterity becoming a citizen by constitutional right of conception also possibly one of the many causes for the use of witchcraft in a dark past of human history.

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ;If there is a starvimg or homeless person and they steal food from a store, I can empathize but still say that is wrong and should be illegal.

Im sure you do have empathy for them but you show no empathy at all towards people who have abortions. I could go back through all your posts here and it is interesting to note that not even once did you even acknowledge that these people actually exist let alone having to cry there eyes out and throw up there rings every day with worry and even take there own lives. All you could say is that it, not even them, is killing lives. 

Your view is extreme and another word for extreme is wrong. No extreme view is ever right. And okay, so you might accept that you have some thing wrong with your wiring or what ever else that made you extreme but your chucking gas on the fire by spouting off your extreme views and telling people that your right and every one else is wrong. 

Barnardot

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;That "medical removal" is murder of a child.

Okay then so if you know some one who has had an abortion are you going to make a citizens arrest and drag the woman down to the local cop shop and demand that they charge her with murder?

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

First off, clearly I believe mothers who get abortions exist otherwise I would have no issues and there would be no such thing as abortion.
You still havent presented any arguments your are just appealing to emotion and mob mentality.
If the fetus is a nonliving thing why would mothers have any psychological issues with abortion.  I dont have any mental problems when i crack a rock.  Even if i cut of blade of grass which is alive.

Next while you claim my view is extremist it is not.  Nearly half the country agrees with me.
Secondly extremist is not equivalent to wrong.  Im not suprised by this as all pf your arguments appeal to authority rather than any form of individual reaaoning or intellectuallism. Virtually all moral progression was once extreme.  Ending slavery, lgbt rights, women voting, ect were all extreme positions in history.

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ;Secondly extremist is not equivalent to wrong

Well you are not in a very good space to make that judgement because your extreme and I have no doubt that all that extreme killing stuff that goes through your mind is all very normal to you. But at least your showing some signs of improvement if finally you accept these women exist. But I’ll point out one point here. As long as you go around thinking you’re right to label descent caring humans as being killers you can never have a single ounts of compassion or empathy for them. In the same definition of extreme meaning wrong also goes the word self centred which I mean not to have a crack at you but to point out that once  begin to accept that your ideas are extreme and wrong an self centred and offensive then you can start the healing process. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Barnardot said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;That "medical removal" is murder of a child.

Okay then so if you know some one who has had an abortion are you going to make a citizens arrest and drag the woman down to the local cop shop and demand that they charge her with murder?

@Barnardot ; No...I cannot make an arrest because our perverse and defiled and morally ill society authorizes murdering children; this is why our society is sick...we are inundated with moral-less individuals who serve Satan and celebrate infanticide and LGBTQ perversion...this is why our Creator has walked away from America...you are obviously a standard for this insanity. Shame on YOU and the other pro-abortion spiritually ill in this forum. BTW .. please add @rickeyholtsclaw to your rebuttals concerning ME...I don't receive your quotes as a addressed to me. Thank you.

 

John_C_87

@just_sayin

Unborn children are not property.
Unborn children are American posterity and posterity is property that has been left property held in a united state to which it has legal claim.
They are distinct human individuals.
Facing a criminal accusation as a united state of criminal law.
every cell of their bodies is different than the progenitor's.
Every cells of their body does not make a difference in the united state of the criminal law heald against them.

just_sayin

John_C_87 said:

@just_sayin

Unborn children are not property.
Unborn children are American posterity and posterity is property that has been left property held in a united state to which it has legal claim.
They are distinct human individuals.
Facing a criminal accusation as a united state of criminal law.
every cell of their bodies is different than the progenitor's.
Every cells of their body does not make a difference in the united state of the criminal law heald against them.

Children are human lives, not property.  Slavery is over in the US.  How are you dong physically, ?

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

Can you show empathy towards a starving person who steals but still believe atealing is wrong?

Next again, youve never even provided an argument or any data showing ny views are extreme.  In fact the further along in the pregnancy the more extreme your view actually becomes.  Support for abortion drops to less than 1/3 entering the second trimester.  So there youd be the extreme

Lastly again, I dont care what you label an extreme view, I care about whether it can be intellectually reasoned or supported.  From that perspective you refuse to engage...i wonder why

RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87

Life does begin at conception and you advocate for the murder of same; therefore, you judgement in Hell will be most horrific.

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]

John_C_87

@just_sayin
Children are human lives, not property.  Slavery is over in the US.
Slavery sadly is not over it has been put in the hands of American Congress and House with proper legilsation of 

U.S. Constitution - Thirteenth Amendment | Resources | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

"Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

: with the exclusion or exception of

Except Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

to take or leave out from a number or a whole : Exclude ( exclude what? ending slavery)

How are you dong physically, ?
I'm dying, how are thing with you?

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Life does begin at conception and you advocate for the murder of same; therefore, you judgement in Hell will be most horrific.
Life begins at the birth inside a woman of the egg in simpler terms, and this birth does not require conception it is immaculate. Hower lets take you claim as being true I will pretend life starts at conception and work the issue in my understand without true.  I was just pointing out it yours is a limited condition and the medical community and women deserves something much better as a state of the union. 

How in exactly ( : in a manner or measure or to a degree or number that strictly conforms to a fact or condition Exactly Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster) are fetus, embryo, Zygote criminal charge to a crime involving lethal force after killing a women. There has been as many as 1,205 of these unsolved crimes that have ended the life of women taking place throughout many, many years? No, the cute babies are not innocent, all such children are presumed innocent, and the day in court has been sealed shut delayed directly by the impeachment process not being held to its Constitutional burden of the dissolving of all political bands while it is executed. 

Exactly Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

just_sayin

@John_C_87
I'm dying, how are thing with you?

I am sorry to hear that.  Wishing you all the best.

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Life does begin at conception and you advocate for the murder of same; therefore, you judgement in Hell will be most horrific.
Life begins at the birth inside a woman of the egg in simpler terms, and this birth does not require conception it is immaculate. Hower lets take you claim as being true I will pretend life starts at conception and work the issue in my understand without true.  I was just pointing out it yours is a limited condition and the medical community and women deserves something much better as a state of the union. 

How in exactly ( : in a manner or measure or to a degree or number that strictly conforms to a fact or condition Exactly Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster) are fetus, embryo, Zygote criminal charge to a crime involving lethal force after killing a women. There has been as many as 1,205 of these unsolved crimes that have ended the life of women taking place throughout many, many years? No, the cute babies are not innocent, all such children are presumed innocent, and the day in court has been sealed shut delayed directly by the impeachment process not being held to its Constitutional burden of the dissolving of all political bands while it is executed. 

Exactly Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

@John_C_87 ; With the union of the sperm and the ovum there is life and you advocate the murder of this life and you are not well spiritually or mentally. Seek help.

John_C_87

@just_sayin
Don't be sorry you did not make me sick.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

lol............ I didn't argue with you on when life begins, I’m pretending your correct it starts at conception. I ask you to describe how states file criminal charges against this type of life form so you to say they are innocent and not presumed innocent. A person who advocates female specific amputation does not advocate murder. The declaration of GOD from Christianity dependence on a hidden admission that Christ is God before you begin worshiping this religion as at teacher of faith who would not otherwise be God had a human not admitted he to be so to them.. A person’s indoctrination usually starts with an admission that sounds something like this. “Do you except Jesus as your Lord and savor God.” I on the other hand hold the Declaration of Independence GOD which is a “Natures God” 100% independent from admission hidden from the people who make them bound to Christianity. You are not well spiritually or mentally. Seek help. I was told in the late1960 not only about the dangers I would face, the harm that may befall me and my loved one, no I'm not well but I assure you the people who help me mentally are very good at their job, they make themselves available to me night and day they are many. 

I was told in the late1960 not only about the dangers I would face, the harm that may befall me and my loved one, and no I'm not well but I assure you the people who help me mentally are very good at their job, they make themselves available to me night and day they are many. The are the best.

Barnardot

@MichaelElpers ;Lastly again, I dont care what you label an extreme view, I care about whether it can be intellectually reasoned or supported.  From that perspective you refuse to engage...i wonder why

Thats right and thats what people are trying to tell you which is why you are still wondering why. hatred is a very nasty thing to have and there can be many excuses for it but your the only one who can decide which way you want to go.

RickeyHoltsclaw

John_C_87 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

lol............ I didn't argue with you on when life begins, I’m pretending your correct it starts at conception. I ask you to describe how states file criminal charges against this type of life form so you to say they are innocent and not presumed innocent. A person who advocates female specific amputation does not advocate murder. The declaration of GOD from Christianity dependence on a hidden admission that Christ is God before you begin worshiping this religion as at teacher of faith who would not otherwise be God had a human not admitted he to be so to them.. A person’s indoctrination usually starts with an admission that sounds something like this. “Do you except Jesus as your Lord and savor God.” I on the other hand hold the Declaration of Independence GOD which is a “Natures God” 100% independent from admission hidden from the people who make them bound to Christianity. You are not well spiritually or mentally. Seek help. I was told in the late1960 not only about the dangers I would face, the harm that may befall me and my loved one, no I'm not well but I assure you the people who help me mentally are very good at their job, they make themselves available to me night and day they are many. 

I was told in the late1960 not only about the dangers I would face, the harm that may befall me and my loved one, and no I'm not well but I assure you the people who help me mentally are very good at their job, they make themselves available to me night and day they are many. The are the best.

@John_C_87 ; 

1) There is no such entity in reality as "female specific amputation"...those are words of Satan and used by his advocates. "amputating" a baby from their mother's womb is murder. You are a horrible person for suggesting that abortion is an amputation of no consequence. 

2) Jesus is Elohim, Creator, Warrior, Messiah...everyone born again by the Holy Spirit via faith in Jesus as Messiah knows this and testifies to same. It is not "indoctrination" to acknowledge the Truth that Jesus is Lord, Messiah. It is indoctrination to deny commonsense and logic and advocate for the "amputation" of a child from the child's mother and from her womb through murder i.e. abortion.

3) You are spiritually sick, mentally unstable, lacking the ability to clearly articulate anything of substance in reality.

4) You are a servant of the devil.

MichaelElpers

@Barnardot

Again you wouldnt respond to a question.
Can you have empathy for a starving person who steals but still agree stealing is wrong?

I dont hold hatred towards anyone.  And im not wondering why because you dont have any actual intellectual arguments surrounding science or morality of abortion.

In the second trimester and beyond you have the extremist view.  So i guess you have to cope with the same hatred towards the baby.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Jesus is Elohim, Creator, Warrior, Messiah...everyone born again by the Holy Spirit via faith in Jesus as Messiah knows this and testifies to same.
I know, I agreed, it is just worded different it is by vote people make a packed to call Jesus GOD. This is not a form of Natures God as law of nature it is not dependent on a human vote it is devine law. It depends on people who vote a god into devine power, it is a nautures GOD who deturmans the number of men and women who are born and they are held as a united state of being one people. As one constitutional group they have been separated from British law likes abortion and witchcraft. The state of the union however with established justice made by and in witch craft is men have now also started drugging women to sexually asualt them.

advocates. "amputating" a baby from their mother's womb is murder.

Equality under law. The mother is to be presumed innocent for she can be charged with many types of criminal charges,The use of lethal force in this matter is self defence and the child is both physically and emotionally incapable to stand trial like the mother, there are no proper forms of legilsation in the matter only unratified United States Constitutional Rights, you little Omen maker Damien machine.

: an occurrence or phenomenon (see PHENOMENON sense 1) believed to portend a future event : AUGURY

Omen Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

: divination from auspices (see AUSPICE sense 3) or omens

Ancient augury involved the interpretation of the flight patterns of birds.
Augury Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

: the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers

Divination Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

auspices plural : kindly patronage and guidance

doing research under the auspices of the local historical society

2

: a prophetic sign

especially : a favorable sign

3

: observation by an augur especially of the flight and feeding of birds to discover omens

Auspice Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

You are a servant of the devil.
I realize that every time I do Algebra mathematics.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; It's good that you realize the truth.

John_C_87

@RickeyHoltsclaw
GOD knows all, the children you say are innocent commit murders yet none are brought before established justice to be be charged with crime. Not knowing this is evidence of not knowing everything. F.Y.I. any one who sends demonds back to hell is a servant of the devil, any who damns people to hell is a servant of the devil.