What are the "religious tenets" of the "faith" of Atheism?

just_sayin

You forgot an appeal to the science of the gaps.  Anytime you confront an atheist with the scientific problems of abiogenesis or of a universe from a quantum fluctuation, or give examples of medically documented miracles they will start singing their equivalent of the Hallelujah chorus 'even when science says its impossible, trust us, science shows its possible'. 

Go ahead @MayCaesar that's your cue to get the atheist choir going.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

There exists NO religion, secular or theological, that requires greater faith from its adherents than the religion of Atheism. 

Consider this: The Atheist must believe that nothing produces everything, non-life produces life, randomness produces fine-tuning, chaos produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness, and non-reason produces reason and "In the beginning" there was NOTHING that exploded and from this chaos emanated design, logic, reason, purpose, morality, LIFE - the complex human genome.

With that said, what are the defining religious "tenets" of Atheism?

1) Faith - belief that nothing created something.

 

2) Infanticide - seeing that life is the product of a primordial soup that arose from the abyss, life has no intrinsic value therefore narcissism is god, sensual pleasure is the epitome of existence and reality; therefore, anything or anyone that is an encumbrance to one's narcissistic desires is easily remedied by death of the "obstruction." In Atheism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet.

3) Lesbianism - Gayness - Bisexuality - Transsexualism - Queerdom // Seeing that objective morality is an irrelevant construct of man's theological religions, the secular religion of Atheism strictly adheres to "moral relativism;" therefore, the human body is a social experiment for pleasuring sexually and the epitome of the "human experience" is one's sexuality and the freedom to express same void societal limitations...to Hell with societal morality - long live the sexual genitalia as icons of godly pleasure. 

4) Moral Relativism - "If it feels good - do it" - after all - It's your life baby...enjoy it.

5) Darwinism - Evolutionary Theory - a lesser god in Atheism from which all things find purpose in origin. Nothing created Something that exploded and provided Meaning; therefore, Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins are atheistic deity.

In conclusion: 

Atheism is a religion of the demonic - an all encompassing destructive entity in any society seeking sustainable mores, norms, values, a healthy and productive foundation for a future posterity. Atheism has no place in American society based upon the precepts of a Constitutional Republic that was founded upon the precepts of Christianity. Atheism and its parishioners are to be feared and shunned and ostracized from a society if that society is to have any hope of sustainability. 

 

   

 

There exists NO religion, secular or theological, that requires greater faith from its adherents than the religion of Christianity. 

Consider this, the theist must believe a fictitious god (nothing) created everything. Non-life produces life, randomness produces fine-tuning, chaos produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness, and non-reason produces reason and "In the beginning" there was NOTHING BUT AN IMAGINARY GOD which there is no trace of: that exploded and from this cosmic fart, logic, reason, purpose, morality, LIFE - the complex human genome.

1. Faith: imaginary god created everything from nothing.

2. Infanticide: seeing that life is the product of a primordial soup that arose from the abyss magically stirred from the fairy god elf, life has no intrinsic value therefore narcissism is god, sensual pleasure is the epitome of existence and reality; therefore, anything or anyone that is an encumbrance to one's narcissistic desires is easily remedied by death of the "obstruction." In theism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet. Sociopaths like hitler used his religion (christianity) to slaughter millions of innocent children claiming it was gods work.

3. Homosexuality: Belief in the nothing fictitious elf gods like the one in the bible gives permission to workout the plethora of anxiety stored up from feelings of stupidity and incompetence from not being able to act on their own perversions; they get to kill innocent people because of sexuality according to their fairytale elf book. 

4. Moral relativism: Bend the knee to my imaginary nothing god or die two deaths!

5. Science: This bringer of truth and reality has no place in our silly childish beliefs.

In conclusion: Theism, (especially of the maniacal, genocidal abrahamic variety of the fairytale elf book bible) eventually will need to be traded in for logical based thinking in reality; so 'demon' possessed theists stop running around committing atrocities whether on a grand scale like hitler or in the back of police cruisers in houston.  

I know your elf god don't like liars so I made your post truthful and factual for you ricky. 

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

You forgot an appeal to the science of the gaps.  Anytime you confront an atheist with the scientific problems of abiogenesis or of a universe from a quantum fluctuation, or give examples of medically documented miracles they will start singing their equivalent of the Hallelujah chorus 'even when science says its impossible, trust us, science shows its possible'. 

Go ahead @MayCaesar that's your cue to get the atheist choir going.

I would, but that would not do much good to you, would it? I can only sing in English or Russian, and you speak neither of these languages.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

There exists NO religion, secular or theological, that requires greater faith from its adherents than the religion of Atheism. 

Consider this: The Atheist must believe that nothing produces everything, non-life produces life, randomness produces fine-tuning, chaos produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness, and non-reason produces reason and "In the beginning" there was NOTHING that exploded and from this chaos emanated design, logic, reason, purpose, morality, LIFE - the complex human genome.

With that said, what are the defining religious "tenets" of Atheism?

1) Faith - belief that nothing created something.

 

2) Infanticide - seeing that life is the product of a primordial soup that arose from the abyss, life has no intrinsic value therefore narcissism is god, sensual pleasure is the epitome of existence and reality; therefore, anything or anyone that is an encumbrance to one's narcissistic desires is easily remedied by death of the "obstruction." In Atheism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet.

3) Lesbianism - Gayness - Bisexuality - Transsexualism - Queerdom // Seeing that objective morality is an irrelevant construct of man's theological religions, the secular religion of Atheism strictly adheres to "moral relativism;" therefore, the human body is a social experiment for pleasuring sexually and the epitome of the "human experience" is one's sexuality and the freedom to express same void societal limitations...to Hell with societal morality - long live the sexual genitalia as icons of godly pleasure. 

4) Moral Relativism - "If it feels good - do it" - after all - It's your life baby...enjoy it.

5) Darwinism - Evolutionary Theory - a lesser god in Atheism from which all things find purpose in origin. Nothing created Something that exploded and provided Meaning; therefore, Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins are atheistic deity.

In conclusion: 

Atheism is a religion of the demonic - an all encompassing destructive entity in any society seeking sustainable mores, norms, values, a healthy and productive foundation for a future posterity. Atheism has no place in American society based upon the precepts of a Constitutional Republic that was founded upon the precepts of Christianity. Atheism and its parishioners are to be feared and shunned and ostracized from a society if that society is to have any hope of sustainability. 

 

   

 

There exists NO religion, secular or theological, that requires greater faith from its adherents than the religion of Christianity. 

Consider this, the theist must believe a fictitious god (nothing) created everything. Non-life produces life, randomness produces fine-tuning, chaos produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness, and non-reason produces reason and "In the beginning" there was NOTHING BUT AN IMAGINARY GOD which there is no trace of: that exploded and from this cosmic fart, logic, reason, purpose, morality, LIFE - the complex human genome.

1. Faith: imaginary god created everything from nothing.

2. Infanticide: seeing that life is the product of a primordial soup that arose from the abyss magically stirred from the fairy god elf, life has no intrinsic value therefore narcissism is god, sensual pleasure is the epitome of existence and reality; therefore, anything or anyone that is an encumbrance to one's narcissistic desires is easily remedied by death of the "obstruction." In theism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet. Sociopaths like hitler used his religion (christianity) to slaughter millions of innocent children claiming it was gods work.

3. Homosexuality: Belief in the nothing fictitious elf gods like the one in the bible gives permission to workout the plethora of anxiety stored up from feelings of stupidity and incompetence from not being able to act on their own perversions; they get to kill innocent people because of sexuality according to their fairytale elf book. 

4. Moral relativism: Bend the knee to my imaginary nothing god or die two deaths!

5. Science: This bringer of truth and reality has no place in our silly childish beliefs.

In conclusion: Theism, (especially of the maniacal, genocidal abrahamic variety of the fairytale elf book bible) eventually will need to be traded in for logical based thinking in reality; so 'demon' possessed theists stop running around committing atrocities whether on a grand scale like hitler or in the back of police cruisers in houston.  

I know your elf god don't like liars so I made your post truthful and factual for you ricky. 

@Factfinder ; The reality of the godless atheist, a vile and perverse people who are strangers to sustainability and goodness in any society.

jack

Argument Topic: What are the "religious tenets" of the "faith" of Atheism?

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Hello Rickey:

HAVING religious tenets would suggest there ARE religious tenets, and atheists simply don't believe there is.  Can't HAVE something that isn't there.

It's no more complicated than that.

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

jack said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Hello Rickey:

HAVING religious tenets would suggest there ARE religious tenets, and atheists simply don't believe there is.  Can't HAVE something that isn't there.

It's no more complicated than that.

excon

@jack ; Your ignorance of truth and what is atheism is irrelevant. These are the tenets of the vile atheist...prove it wrong.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The reality of the godless atheist, a vile and perverse people who are strangers to sustainability and goodness in any society.

The reality of the godless theist, a vile and perverse people who are strangers to sustainability and goodness in any society.

Their fairytale elf book provides the oppressive tactics of the bible so scum like stalin, putin and hitler to commit all kinds of atrocities just by mimicking the teachings and power structure of the bible closely. Honest of you to point that fact out ricky.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR QUOTE INFERRING THAT YOUR JESUS AS GOD IS AN ABORTIONIST!!!:  "In Atheism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet."

The Atheist thanks you for bringing forth the FACT that your Jesus as god ABORTS a possible child through miscarriages of a woman millions of times daily subsequent to said woman flushing the toilet!  Praise your knowledge of your serial killer Jesus, way to go RICKEY the Bible adherent!

THE REASONS JESUS CAUSES MISCARRIAGES AS BIBLICALLY VOUCHSAFED:  

1.  Jesus controls life: "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

2.  Jesus knows everything that is going to happen: "For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

3. Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:33)  

4. The will of Jesus as god knows when he will miscarriage a woman:  “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29).

5. Behind every miscarriage  of a woman is Jesus:  “Behind every circumstance is the Lord” (Amos 3:6).  

RICKEY, do you think that Jesus as god should be put to death because of the biblical FACTS shown above where he caused DEATHLY miscarriages, due to this Bible verse herewith: “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 24:17)

RickeyHoltsclaw

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR QUOTE INFERRING THAT YOUR JESUS AS GOD IS AN ABORTIONIST!!!:  "In Atheism, children are a byproduct of sensuality; therefore, expendable through death and a simple flush of the toilet."

The Atheist thanks you for bringing forth the FACT that your Jesus as god ABORTS a possible child through miscarriages of a woman millions of times daily subsequent to said woman flushing the toilet!  Praise your knowledge of your serial killer Jesus, way to go RICKEY the Bible adherent!

THE REASONS JESUS CAUSES MISCARRIAGES AS BIBLICALLY VOUCHSAFED:  

1.  Jesus controls life: "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

2.  Jesus knows everything that is going to happen: "For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

3. Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:33)  

4. The will of Jesus as god knows when he will miscarriage a woman:  “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29).

5. Behind every miscarriage  of a woman is Jesus:  “Behind every circumstance is the Lord” (Amos 3:6).  

RICKEY, do you think that Jesus as god should be put to death because of the biblical FACTS shown above where he caused DEATHLY miscarriages, due to this Bible verse herewith: “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 24:17)

@21CenturyIconoclast ; "Miscarriages" manifest due a non-viable genome due the Adamic-curse that resulted in genomic atrophy.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

ONE OF YOUR MORE LAUGHABLE RESPONSES, THIS TIME FOR YOUR JESUS CAUSING MISSCARRIAGES!!!!:  "Miscarriages" manifest due a non-viable genome due the Adamic-curse that resulted in genomic atrophy."

OMG, in your comical phrase above where you are trying so hard to be smarter than you truly are in you using a "mish-mash" of words that you don't even understand, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY NEGATE THE FOLLOWING "BIBLE PASSAGES" PROVING THAT JESUS CAUSES MISSCARRIAGES, PERIOD!!!

1.  Jesus controls life: "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

2.  Jesus knows everything that is going to happen: "For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

3. Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:33)  

4. The will of Jesus as god knows when he will miscarriage a woman:  “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29).

5. Behind every miscarriage of a woman is Jesus:  “Behind every circumstance is the Lord” (Amos 3:6).  

Nice pseudo-christian try RICKEY to apologetically spin doctor away your Jesus is responsible for a woman's miscarriages, but no cigar!  LOL!

NEXT BIBLE DUMB PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKYHOLTSCLAW" THAT CAN'T ACCEPT FACTUAL BIBLE PASSAGES THAT PROVE JESUS CAUSES MISSCARRIAGES, WILL BE ........?

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

ONE OF YOUR MORE LAUGHABLE RESPONSES, THIS TIME FOR YOUR JESUS CAUSING MISSCARRIAGES!!!!:  "Miscarriages" manifest due a non-viable genome due the Adamic-curse that resulted in genomic atrophy."

OMG, in your comical phrase above where you are trying so hard to be smarter than you truly are in you using a "mish-mash" of words that you don't even understand, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY NEGATE THE FOLLOWING "BIBLE PASSAGES" PROVING THAT JESUS CAUSES MISSCARRIAGES, PERIOD!!!

1.  Jesus controls life: "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

2.  Jesus knows everything that is going to happen: "For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

3. Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:33)  

4. The will of Jesus as god knows when he will miscarriage a woman:  “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29).

5. Behind every miscarriage of a woman is Jesus:  “Behind every circumstance is the Lord” (Amos 3:6).  

Nice pseudo-christian try RICKEY to apologetically spin doctor away your Jesus is responsible for a woman's miscarriages, but no cigar!  LOL!

NEXT BIBLE DUMB PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKYHOLTSCLAW" THAT CAN'T ACCEPT FACTUAL BIBLE PASSAGES THAT PROVE JESUS CAUSES MISSCARRIAGES, WILL BE ........?

.

@21CenturyIconoclast ; @Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; Death in body is the resultant of sin/disobedience/the rejection of our Father's love and sustenance by our earthly father, Adam...you and I are under that same curse due Federal Headship (Romans 5:12). 

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and pave a path to reconciliation between sinful humanity and our Holy Father...Jesus suffered and shed His innocent blood in your place so that you, by faith in Jesus as Messiah, could attain a New Covenant relationship with the Father and receive forgiveness of sin and righteousness (a right standing) with Him, a relationship surrendered by our earthly father, Adam. 

You are free to continue in a wasted life spent in the nihilism of atheism and ultimately die in Hell or you can choose to humble yourself and repent of your blasphemy and rebellion and confess, trust, Jesus as your Messiah, receive the indwelling Holy Spirit and walk in peace with the Father, forever...the choice is yours. 

 

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Uh, any comical comment of yours to the image in my post in question relating to 1 Samuel 15:3, where you are to use your Satanic apologetic books to try and HIDE FROM BIBLICAL FACTS?  Come on RICKEY, make us laugh even harder with another one of your lame ludicrous refutations that run 180 degrees from the truth of said comment!

LETS SEE WHAT RICKEY WILL POST TO MAKE US LAUGH HARDER AT HIS INANE REFUTATIONS TO BIBLICAL FACT!  LOL!

WAITING!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsq0FiXjGHg

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Uh, any comical comment of yours to the image in my post in question relating to 1 Samuel 15:3, where you are to use your Satanic apologetic books to try and HIDE FROM BIBLICAL FACTS?  Come on RICKEY, make us laugh even harder with another one of your lame ludicrous refutations that run 180 degrees from the truth of said comment!

LETS SEE WHAT RICKEY WILL POST TO MAKE US LAUGH HARDER AT HIS INANE REFUTATIONS TO BIBLICAL FACT!  LOL!

WAITING!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsq0FiXjGHg

.

@21CenturyIconoclast ; @Factfincer ; @ZeusAres42 ; What problem do you have with 1 Samuel 15...can you articulate that "problem" and your objections to it and why?

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

What problem do you have with 1 Samuel 15...can you articulate that "problem" and your objections to it and why?

It is the pseudo authoritative nature of a fairy god telling people to kill babies. Too many delusional people copy cat the bible, what it says and commands. Like fellow christian hitler thought he was doing gods will. Theists an atheists alike justify horrible atrocities because of verses like that in your bible. That's how delusional religious or socialistic people learn to captivate and hold people down. Bible tactic, bend the knee or else. No love, no freewill.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

What problem do you have with 1 Samuel 15...can you articulate that "problem" and your objections to it and why?

It is the pseudo authoritative nature of a fairy god telling people to kill babies. Too many delusional people copy cat the bible, what it says and commands. Like fellow christian hitler thought he was doing gods will. Theists an atheists alike justify horrible atrocities because of verses like that in your bible. That's how delusional religious or socialistic people learn to captivate and hold people down. Bible tactic, bend the knee or else. No love, no freewill.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; You, in your hypocritical atheistic death cult, accuse my Lord of being unjust in His command to annihilate the paganism-demonic influence that sought to conform Israel's children into worshipers of Baal and Molech-child sacrifice. You are so lacking in knowledge and so hypocritical...

 Consider this overview....

It is fallacious to regard this as essentially an Old Testament problem, and to set the “bloodthirsty” Old Testament over against the “gentle” New Testament. Possibly the phenomenon is more crude in the Old Testament than in the New, but of the two the New Testament is the more terrible, for the Old Testament seldom speaks of anything beyond temporal judgments . . . whereas the Son of man in the Gospels pronounces eternal punishment.

So, really, there is no way to get around this. 1 Samuel is a historical narrative that seeks to establish the truth of what really happened. Anyone who is serious about the Bible being God’s word is going to believe that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites and empowered him to have the victory. The weight is heavy; so, how do we carry it?

The Framework of the Old Testament Story

Many of us in the modern day want to equate what happened in the OT with the Holy Wars of the crusades and the ethnic-cleansing genocide of South Africa, but the Canaanite Conquest was unique. This was a Yahweh War. These were not just enemies of Israel, but enemies of God. God was the “commander-in-chief,” and he decided how the people and the spoils of war were to be dealt with because it was his own war accomplished through human agents (in this case, Saul and his army). In fact, after these wars, they were seen as an act of God (Ps. 44). These wars were a unique act of God to fulfill his promises to Abraham and the Israelites. These wars were limited and are in no way meant to be a model for the people of God after they settled in the Promised Land or for God’s New Testament people.

The Framework of God’s Sovereign Justice

To understand much of these dealings, one has to understand God’s covenants with his people. He made a covenant with Abraham to give his people the Promised Land. But it wouldn’t be until the “fourth generation” because “the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure” (Gen. 15:16). God knew that the people of the land of Canaan would continue in their sin, but he was not yet going to exercise judgment on them because their sin had not reached the level to which he was ready to administer judgment. There is a lot of mystery here, but I think we must understand that God never commanded the Israelites to attack any peoples whom he had not considered it morally right to judge because of the pure evil of their actions. We have to trust God in this.

 This brings us to the particular situation of the Amalekites. Their story is that they, unprovoked, attacked Israel from behind as they had just finished crossing the Red Sea, and Israel went to war with them. Because of this and their many other sins, God vowed to blot them out from under heaven (Ex. 17:14). Moses also reminded the people that once they are settled in the Promised Land, they are to wipe out the Amalekites (Deut. 25:17-19). Once again, unless we trust that God is just and would only do such a thing once a people had reached a certain level of wickedness, then this will not satisfy us, but this is the God the Bible presents. Like Pastor Andrew said, this wasn’t genocide, this was divine judgment. There was no injustice in God with his commanding Saul to do this.

The Framework of God’s Plan of Salvation

Finally, we must remember the overarching narrative of scripture in order to view these things rightly. God’s plan in his covenant with Abraham was that his people would be given the Promised Land and all nations would be blessed through him (Gen. 15). These wars were waged by God in pursuit of this goal. But in an unsuspected turn, the promised seed of Abraham came, that is Jesus Christ, who had the war waged on him for all the fullness of the sin that the nations had accumulated. Every nation should be struck down by God’s angels because of their wickedness, but it was placed on Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for those who put their trust in his life, death, and resurrection. And those who believe are now engrafted into the promises made to Abraham and therefore, people from all tribes, tongues, and nations are blessed through Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. This is how the nations were blessed through Abraham.

Evil and the death due it should grieve us, but let it never stop us from praising God for his justice. His love is wrapped up in his justice; judgment came upon Christ, so that we might be the loved people of God.

See: https://mercyhillchurch.com/why-did-god-command-saul-to-eliminate-the-amalikites/

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

POOR RICKEY'S RESPONSE TO MY POSTED IMAGE REGARDING 1 SAMUEL 15:3:  "What problem do you have with 1 Samuel 15...can you articulate that "problem" and your objections to it and why? "
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176695/#Comment_176695

Oh, oh, RICKEY is using the ol' pseudo-christian ruse of "answering a question with a question" to be able to RUN AWAY from the disturbing and sickening passage of 1 Samuel 15:3 in making his Jesus as God an INFANT AND SUCKLING BABY KILLER that he embarrassingly worships and prays too!  PUKE!


TRY AGAIN RICKEY, what happened in you not being able to reply to my image relating to 1 Samuel 15:3?  Couldn't find any rational refutations to said verse in your "plethora" of Satanic Christian Apologetic Books?

WAITING AGAIN BIBLE FOOL RICKEY!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsq0FiXjGHg

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; You're so foolish and lacking in understanding,

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; You, in your hypocritical atheistic death cult, accuse my Lord of being unjust in His command to annihilate the paganism-demonic influence that sought to conform Israel's children into worshipers of Baal and Molech-child sacrifice. You are so lacking in knowledge and so hypocritical...

 Consider this overview....

It is fallacious to regard this as essentially an Old Testament problem, and to set the “bloodthirsty” Old Testament over against the “gentle” New Testament. Possibly the phenomenon is more crude in the Old Testament than in the New, but of the two the New Testament is the more terrible, for the Old Testament seldom speaks of anything beyond temporal judgments . . . whereas the Son of man in the Gospels pronounces eternal punishment.

So, really, there is no way to get around this. 1 Samuel is a historical narrative that seeks to establish the truth of what really happened. Anyone who is serious about the Bible being God’s word is going to believe that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites and empowered him to have the victory. The weight is heavy; so, how do we carry it?

The Framework of the Old Testament Story

Many of us in the modern day want to equate what happened in the OT with the Holy Wars of the crusades and the ethnic-cleansing genocide of South Africa, but the Canaanite Conquest was unique. This was a Yahweh War. These were not just enemies of Israel, but enemies of God. God was the “commander-in-chief,” and he decided how the people and the spoils of war were to be dealt with because it was his own war accomplished through human agents (in this case, Saul and his army). In fact, after these wars, they were seen as an act of God (Ps. 44). These wars were a unique act of God to fulfill his promises to Abraham and the Israelites. These wars were limited and are in no way meant to be a model for the people of God after they settled in the Promised Land or for God’s New Testament people.

The Framework of God’s Sovereign Justice

To understand much of these dealings, one has to understand God’s covenants with his people. He made a covenant with Abraham to give his people the Promised Land. But it wouldn’t be until the “fourth generation” because “the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure” (Gen. 15:16). God knew that the people of the land of Canaan would continue in their sin, but he was not yet going to exercise judgment on them because their sin had not reached the level to which he was ready to administer judgment. There is a lot of mystery here, but I think we must understand that God never commanded the Israelites to attack any peoples whom he had not considered it morally right to judge because of the pure evil of their actions. We have to trust God in this.

 This brings us to the particular situation of the Amalekites. Their story is that they, unprovoked, attacked Israel from behind as they had just finished crossing the Red Sea, and Israel went to war with them. Because of this and their many other sins, God vowed to blot them out from under heaven (Ex. 17:14). Moses also reminded the people that once they are settled in the Promised Land, they are to wipe out the Amalekites (Deut. 25:17-19). Once again, unless we trust that God is just and would only do such a thing once a people had reached a certain level of wickedness, then this will not satisfy us, but this is the God the Bible presents. Like Pastor Andrew said, this wasn’t genocide, this was divine judgment. There was no injustice in God with his commanding Saul to do this.

The Framework of God’s Plan of Salvation

Finally, we must remember the overarching narrative of scripture in order to view these things rightly. God’s plan in his covenant with Abraham was that his people would be given the Promised Land and all nations would be blessed through him (Gen. 15). These wars were waged by God in pursuit of this goal. But in an unsuspected turn, the promised seed of Abraham came, that is Jesus Christ, who had the war waged on him for all the fullness of the sin that the nations had accumulated. Every nation should be struck down by God’s angels because of their wickedness, but it was placed on Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for those who put their trust in his life, death, and resurrection. And those who believe are now engrafted into the promises made to Abraham and therefore, people from all tribes, tongues, and nations are blessed through Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. This is how the nations were blessed through Abraham.

Evil and the death due it should grieve us, but let it never stop us from praising God for his justice. His love is wrapped up in his justice; judgment came upon Christ, so that we might be the loved people of God.

See: https://mercyhillchurch.com/why-did-god-command-saul-to-eliminate-the-amalikites/

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

OMG!  You found your SATANIC Christian Apologetic Books, praise!

YOUR WISHFUL THINKING IN THAT YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR YOUR JESUS AS GOD COMMANDING THE MURDERING OF INNOCENT BABIES AND SUCKLINGS!!!!: "So, really, there is no way to get around this. 1 Samuel is a historical narrative that seeks to establish the truth of what really happened. Anyone who is serious about the Bible being God’s word is going to believe that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites and empowered him to have the victory. The weight is heavy; so, how do we carry it?"
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176707/#Comment_176707

Oh, oh, when you conveniently left out a portion of your statement above, where you said "that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites," YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT YOUR JESUS SAID TO SLAY INFANT AND SUCKLINGS AS WELL!!!   Tsk, tsk, tsk, bad pseudo-christian !

Therefore, how do you feel when your Jesus as God said to SLAY THE INNOCENT INFANT AND SUCKLINGS of the Amalekites, especially as they cried out to their mothers when they were brutally murdered as Jesus as God watched!!! (Job 28;24)

YOUR SHORT ANSWER IN ACCEPTING THAT JESUS AS GOD WANTED INNOCENT "INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES" MURDERED IS: 



Who wants to join Christianity in the 21st century of thinking and science, where their God Jesus ORDERED the MURDERING of innocent INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES? ANYONE?

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

OMG!  You found your SATANIC Christian Apologetic Books, praise!

YOUR WISHFUL THINKING IN THAT YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR YOUR JESUS AS GOD COMMANDING THE MURDERING OF INNOCENT BABIES AND SUCKLINGS!!!!: "So, really, there is no way to get around this. 1 Samuel is a historical narrative that seeks to establish the truth of what really happened. Anyone who is serious about the Bible being God’s word is going to believe that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites and empowered him to have the victory. The weight is heavy; so, how do we carry it?"

Oh, oh, when you conveniently left out a portion of your statement above, and when you said "that God both commanded Saul to eliminate the Amalekites," YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT YOUR JESUS SAID TO SLAY INFANT AND SUCKLINGS AS WELL!!! Tsk, tsk, tsk!

Therefore, how do you feel when your Jesus as God, said to SLAY the INNOCENT INFANT AND SUCKLINGS of the Amalekites as they cried out to their mothers when they were brutally murdered?


YOUR SHORT ANSWER IN ACCEPTING THAT JESUS AS GOD WANTED INNOCENT "INFANTS AND SUCKLINGS" MURDERED IS: 



Who wants to join Christianity where their God Jesus ORDERED the MURDERING of innocent INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES? 

.

@21CenturyIconoclast ; I trust Jesus and His judgment...you will see that judgment soon enough...enjoy your atheistic ignorance and arrogance...

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 I trust Jesus and His judgment...you will see that judgment soon enough...enjoy your atheistic ignorance and arrogance...

Ricky, when a delusional mind produces a statement like yours above, the intelligent mind isn't impressed. And you're no closer to supplying any evidence at all that atheism is a religion. Another delusional product of the childish fantasy of your love, hate kill religious brain. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 I trust Jesus and His judgment...you will see that judgment soon enough...enjoy your atheistic ignorance and arrogance...

Ricky, when a delusional mind produces a statement like yours above, the intelligent mind isn't impressed. And you're no closer to supplying any evidence at all that atheism is a religion. Another delusional product of the childish fantasy of your love, hate kill religious brain. 

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; I'm not here to impress the demonic atheist...you can't be impressed...you're sold-out to Satan...you are the one existing in the childish fantasy of atheism, the fools playground...not me.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR QUOTE WHERE YOU ADMIT THAT JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL MURDERER IN COMMANDING THE KILLING OF INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES!!!: " I trust Jesus and His judgment."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176712/#Comment_176712

WOW! TO THE MEMBERSHIP:  As explicitly shown in the link above, COPY AND PASTE it in showing that RICKEYHOLTSCLAW accepts his Jesus as God in commanding the murdering of innocent INFANTS and SUCKLING BABIES, where we can bring forth said link in the future as need be to make him the continued BIBLE FOOL, praise!

RICKEY, this is what happens when you worship and pray to a brutal and bloody serial killer Jesus as god, where you finally "Slipped on your Freudian" with your comment above!  The Atheists thank you!  ROFLOL!  Priceless!


NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKEYHOLTCLAW" THAT ADMITS HIS JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL MURDERER OF INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES, WILL BE .........? 

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; @Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; @maxx ; Yes, Yes, Yes, Elohim commanded the annihilation of a pagan tribe and Elohim annihilated both the Adamic and Noahic generations save eight. So what are you going to do about it, atheist? You too will be annihilated in Hell in the "second death" (Rev 20:11-15) due your rejection of Jesus as Messiah (John 3)...that is your choice as it was the choice of the Adamic and Noahic generations to defile themselves before Elohim and thwart their ordination as progenitors of the Messiah...just as the Amalekites sought to destroy Israel and thwart Israel's ordination as progenitors of the Messiah through Judah...what have you to say about it, Atheist? You are under Elohim's judgement as well (John 3:18)...Elohim is a Warrior God...deal with it.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Yes, Yes, Yes, Elohim commanded the annihilation of a pagan tribe and Elohim annihilated both the Adamic and Noahic generations save eight. So what are you going to do about it, atheist?

At least you've finally admitted your evil dictator god who first poisoned their bloodlines then murdered them for getting poisoned is scum. Ricky, who sent the serpent into the garden in the first place? If your goddess didn't want evil in the garden, why was it there? Did it trick your elf god proving it weak? Or was it the elf's intent to poison and kill all along? hmm?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say ...

Proud of you ricky. Is this your coming out? 

GnosticChristian

Argument Topic: Morality of tenets.

The usual garbage apologetics from both camps, I see.

Tenets are moral principles, and I note that those are not being discussed at all. 

Not surprising.

Most, and especially Christians run for the hills the moment morals are on the table.

GnosticChristian

Food for thought. 

On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat.

Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR QUOTE OF MY REQUEST FOR YOU TO GIVE US WHAT YOU THINK OF 1 SAMUEL 15:3:   "What problem do you have with 1 Samuel 15...can you articulate that "problem" and your objections to it and why?" 

It matters not anymore on what I think of this sickening verse, and that is because YOU ADMITTED that Jesus as God was a brutal and bloody murderer in commanding that INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES were to be killed, as the link below so states in your behalf where you said that you trust Jesus' justice in this manner!!!! 
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176712/#Comment_176712


IS THERE ANY OTHER PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKEYHOLTSCLAW" THAT ALSO ADMITS THAT THEIR GOD JESUS IS AN ABHORRED  BRUTAL MURDERER OF INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES?

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Yahweh is a Warrior...if you're offended by His tactics, take that up with Him but if you deny Jesus as your Messiah, you too will perish in Hell just as Elohim's other enemies will subsequent Judgment.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

THIS POST OF MINE IS IN RELATION TO YOU ADMITTING THAT YOUR JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL AND BLOODY KILLER!

1. MY BIBLE FACT THAT JESUS AS GOD STATED THAT WIVES THAT WERE NOT VIRGINS UPON THEIR WEDDING NIGHT ARE TO BE MURDERED AND THAT YOU AGREE TOO AS SHOWN IN YOUR RESPONSE SHOWN BELOW!https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176667/#Comment_176667

2. MY BIBLE FACT THAT YOUR JESUS AS GOD COMMANDED THE KILLING OF INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES:https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176712/#Comment_176712

YOUR QUOTE WHERE YOU ADMIT THAT JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL MURDERER IN COMMANDING THE KILLING OF INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES!: " I trust Jesus and His judgment." https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176712/#Comment_176712

3. MY BIBLE FACT THAT YOUR GOD JESUS IS A BRUTAL ABORTIONIST AND WILL KILL BABIES IF BORN! https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176816/#Comment_176816

YOUR QUOTE WHERE YOU ADMIT THAT YOUR JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL ABORIONIST, PRAISE!: “You're not well...Elohim is a warrior...If His tactics offend you...so be it...take it up with Him.”  

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176816/#Comment_176816

RICKEY, In the above 3 instances, as shown YOU ADMIT that your Jesus as God is responsible for his inspired words within the Bible that state to murder wives that are not virgins upon their wedding day, AND where Jesus commanded the murder of innocent infants and suckling babies, AND, where you admit that Jesus is an abortionist and baby killer, praise you enlightenment!!!!

It takes a TRUE Christian to admit to the above facts, good for you Rickey, you are to be commended for sure, praise!

NEXT CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKEYHOLTSCLAW" THAT TOTALLY ADMITS THAT HIS JESUS AS GOD IS A BRUTAL AND BLOODY KILLER OF HIS "JEWISH" CREATION, ESPECIALLY OF "INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES," WILL BE  ...........?

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast @Factfinder

1) If a woman misrepresented her purity to her future husband, she was discarded. I feel the same way...if you lie at the onset...you're a for the outset...much like marrying an atheist.

2) Yes, Yahweh ordered the complete annihilation of the Amalekites...I understand why. Do you?

3) Yes, Elohim ordered the killing of all of the Amalekites...this, for eschatological purposes. 

Jesus is Just and Holy and Righteous and you too will perish in His wrath if you deny His suffering and sacrifice for your salvation which is attained by faith in Jesus as Messiah. You and I are participants in a cosmic, spiritual, war...you have chosen the wrong side.

 

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR REVEALING QUOTES FINALLY!!!: 

1) If a woman misrepresented her purity to her future husband, she was discarded. I feel the same way...if you lie at the onset...you're a for the outset...much like marrying an atheist. 

2) Yes, Yahweh ordered the complete annihilation of the Amalekites...I understand why. Do you?

3) Yes, Elohim ordered the killing of all of the Amalekites...this, for eschatological purposes. 
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176980/#Comment_176980

RICKEY, In the above 3 instances as shown YOU ADMIT that your Jesus as God is responsible for his inspired words within the Bible that state to murder wives that are not virgins upon their wedding day Deuteronomy 22:13-21), AND where Jesus commanded the murder of innocent infants and suckling babies (1 Samuel 15:3), AND, where you admit that Jesus is a BRUTAL abortionist and baby killer(Hosea 9:11-16), praise your enlightenment, FINALLY!



NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "RICKEYHOLTSCLAW" THAT FINALLY CAME TO TERMS WITH HIS GOD JESUS BEING A BRUTAL AND BLOODY SERIAL KILLER, AND THAT HE SCHIZOPHRENICALLY WORSHIPS AND PRAYS TOO, WILL BE ....?

                                                             

.

Barnardot

@RickeyHoltsclaw Well as you very well know atheism is not a faith accept if your going to pull a really long bow and try to make out that its a faith. The thing is that atheists dont need any faith at all accept may be that there team is going to win.
But if we get down to the core of what your going on about its that your trying to blow it back on to the faces of normal people. Just because you got your self in a rut and believe in all that God crap you need to feel that atheists have some sort of belief. But atheists dont have any beleif in atheism at all. Its just that atheists arent besotted in believing things for the sake of it or to fill in any gaps or that they hear voices or that there brains are going to explode if they cant narrow down there thinking.
So in the end all atheists do is sit down and drink a beer and watch all the theists run a round like wet hens all the time.

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

You forgot an appeal to the science of the gaps.  Anytime you confront an atheist with the scientific problems of abiogenesis or of a universe from a quantum fluctuation, or give examples of medically documented miracles they will start singing their equivalent of the Hallelujah chorus 'even when science says its impossible, trust us, science shows its possible'. 

Go ahead @MayCaesar that's your cue to get the atheist choir going.

I would, but that would not do much good to you, would it? I can only sing in English or Russian, and you speak neither of these languages.

By the way, since when does quantum mechanics deal with proving or disproving the existence of a Theos? ROFL

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin ;understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

I am going to be honest: quantum physics is beyond me. From my understanding, this is a field that even some scientists find challenging. As other scientists have said, 'unless you are a quantum physicist,' avoid using this argument. And that is especially true for arguments about a Theistic God.

Barnardot

@MayCaesar ;If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

Thats proberly quite right and I reckon that 99% of atheists dont understand a lot of scientific terms.

 I am not a scientist but my mate and me used to do a lot of scientific experiments in the shed so I know at least some science. But the thing is that most sensible people can understand what a heap of scientists are telling us and go with it. We dont need to believe every thing but at least we should accept that the sky is blue and stop going against conventional wisdom.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That would mean he either has a photographic memory or he cut and pastes his arguments! Doesn't matter, the concept of evidence escapes him. 

ZeusAres42

@Barnardot

@MayCaesar ;If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin ;understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

Thats proberly quite right and I reckon that 99% of atheists dont understand a lot of scientific terms. I am not a scientist but my mate and me used to do a lot of scientific experiments in the shed so I know at least some science. But the thing is that most sensible people can understand what a heap of scientists are telling us and go with it. We dont need to believe every thing but at least we should accept that the sky is blue and stop going against conventional wisdom.

Sorry bruh, but your argument relies on an appeal to common sense. It's like saying, 'We all know that the sun rises and sets.' However, that's not what science tells us. In fact, science frequently contradicts our common perceptions.

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

I know what you mean. My basic understanding is so far "nothing" is actually an impossibility. Sure as hell doesn't point to just_sayin's bible god. No benchmarks to follow LOL

MayCaesar

ZeusAres42 said:

@MayCaesar

I am going to be honest: quantum physics is beyond me. From my understanding, this is a field that even some scientists find challenging. As other scientists have said, 'unless you are a quantum physicist,' avoid using this argument. And that is especially true for arguments about a Theistic God.

Feynman, who received a Nobel Prize for his work in quantum mechanics, was known to produce quotes such as "Sh$t up and calculate" (referring to one's inability to understand quantum mechanics intuitively), or "If someone claims to understand quantum mechanics, they are either lying or crazy". Personally for me Quantum Mechanics and, later, Quantum Field Theory were the least comprehensible physics courses I have taken. I would go as far as to say that the Quantum Field Theory course I took back in Russia was what convinced me that I was not a physicist (yes, that course took that hard a toll on me; never recovered fully from that one).

What theoretical physicists do in general is completely arcane in my eyes. But the quantum physicists speak a different language even with respect to these folks...

Barnardot

@ZeusAres42 ; In fact, science frequently contradicts our common perceptions. 

And so your a pealing to one size fits all and is generic a cross the board if you want to bring out the terminologies and phasers from the Dummies Book on Debating.

And my appeal to common sense happens to be applicable as I explained. But your generic a cross the board one size fits all argument is just that. We are talking specifically here about science being used to prove or disprove God.

You admitted your self:

I am going to be honest: quantum physics is beyond me. ........ avoid using this argument. And that is especially true for arguments about a Theistic God.

So this is the one thing that I think religious people do. They take the simplest explanation and run with it. Just because science or quantum physics might be perceived to be hard to learn does that mean we should leave it out of arguments? No we shouldnt because it is 100 times more right than making up willy nilly gut feeling beliefs or believing what some con man told you.

elijah44

As an atheist I stick to principles, and I still believe in moral and immoral. That’s a big stereotype, all atheist are demonic and immoral. But, the only big difference between a religious person and an atheist person, is our beliefs. We’re all human, so why do we judge each others beliefs, or non beliefs.

elijah44

@just_sayin, are we supposed to know everything?

Barnardot

@elijah44 ;As an atheist I stick to principles, and I still believe in moral and immoral.

And of course you are quiet right. And of course we all get our morals from our upbringing in the home and from culture and may be even genetics to a degree.

I think theists are getting a bit mixed up about what are morals and how we get them and end up making very incorrect assumptions.

There is a lot of talk in Church for example that a Christian goes to get morals from the Bible which is sad because if they have to do that then it doesnt say very much of the substance of that person.

And the problem of course is that many of the principals in the Bible are completely corrupt and completely out of context in todays society. Sure theres a lot of good stuff in the Bible on which to build moral fiber but hay that good stuff Jesus allegedly said isnt new and wasnt new then. The Bible is only a collection of stories gathered from all over the place over many centuries and is all completely made up any way. The problem is that the Bible is over flowing with deathly crueal morbid and hateful crap that would make any ones stomach churn.

So Im afraid that for theists to stand on a high cloud and say we have better morals than you sick heathens is completely wrong. The complete opposite is true. If as they say they get there morals from the Bible then they are all a bunch of utterly corrupt immoral hateful, sour and nasty people and normal people who get there morals from there upbringings should stare a way from those nits.

maxx

atheism is not a religion. look up the definition of religion before you make such a dumb claim. @RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar

The difference between different modes of thinking can be illustrated by using the Monty Hall problem. The Monty Hall problem, or the "Monty Hall paradox", is one of the most common examples given in probability theory courses, aimed to illustrate how flawed human intuition is when it comes to thinking statistically. It goes like this: the host gives you a choice between three doors, behind one of which is the prize and behind the other two nothing. You pick one door at random. Then the host opens one of the other doors and reveals that there is nothing and asks you, "Would you like to change your initial choice to the last door?" The correct answer is "Yes", and if you do the simple math, you will see that the probability of getting the prize if you change your choice is ~67%, while if you do not is ~33%. However, changing the choice upon host's question intuitively feels wrong: "Is he not trying to trick me into getting nothing?"

Here is how different people approach the Monty Hall problem. Let us call four representative people "Theist", "Agnostic", "Irrational Atheist" and "Rational Atheist".

Host: "Which door would you pick?"
Theist: "I do not know where the prize is, but I will take on faith that it is behind the door on the left, so I choose that".
Agnostic: "I do not know where the prize is. I will just pick the door on the left."
Irrational Atheist: "I do not know where the prize is. The door on the left is the closest to me, so why not pick it?"
Rational Atheist: "I do not know where the prize is, so in the absence of any information I will just pick the door on the left.

Host: *Opens the door on the right and there is no prize behind it.* "Would you like to change your mind and pick the door in the middle instead?"
Theist: "No, I have taken on faith that the prize is behind the door on the left, so I will stick with that". (Wins with 33% probability.)
Agnostic: "I do not know where the prize is, except that it is not behind the door on the right. So I will just flip a coin and pick one of the two doors." (Wins with 50% probability.)
Irrational Atheist: "You clearly are trying to trick me, host. Will not work! I stick to the door to the left!" (Wins with 33% probability.)
Rational Atheist: "Well, if I stick to the original door, mathematically the probability of me getting the prize is 33%. By the principle of exclusion then, if I change my mind, the probability will be 100%-33% = 67%, so I will do that." (Wins with 67% probability.)

The key here is that no one knows until the end of the game where the prize actually is, however:

• The Theist believes he does.
• The Agnostic ignores everything that happened and just makes a random guess.
• The Irrational Atheist makes unverifiable assumptions and makes a probabilistic mistake.
• The Rational Atheist sticks to raw facts and maximizes his change of getting the prize.

This is what rationality, operating on logic instead of faith, does: it utilizes all the information available and processes it in the best way possible (or, at least, this is the ideal one should strive for), leading to the best informed guesses. Other modes of thinking either dismiss some information, or falsify it, or make it up.

This is why all modern technology is built on top of the strong scientific and engineering foundation, and not on top of mystical thinking of ivory tower philosophers. You want your vehicle to make it to the surface of Mars safely and translate information from there consistently? You better be sure that you stress-test every minor component of the mission, so as to minimize the chance of a failure of one system ending the whole mission prematurely. On the other hand, if every criticism of your positions you hear you automatically dismiss under some rubbish excuse, then your mission will never leave your rusty garage.

ZeusAres42

@Barnardot

ZeusAres42 said:
 In fact, science frequently contradicts our common perceptions. 

And so your a pealing to one size fits all and is generic a cross the board if you want to bring out the terminologies and phasers from the Dummies Book on Debating.And my appeal to common sense happens to be applicable as I explained. But your generic a cross the board one size fits all argument is just that. We are talking specifically here about science being used to prove or disprove God.You admitted your self:I am going to be honest: quantum physics is beyond me. ........ avoid using this argument. And that is especially true for arguments about a Theistic God.

So this is the one thing that I think religious people do. They take the simplest explanation and run with it. Just because science or quantum physics might be perceived to be hard to learn does that mean we should leave it out of arguments? No we shouldnt because it is 100 times more right than making up willy nilly gut feeling beliefs or believing what some con man told you.

Why didn't you include the whole discourse between us? 

Barnardot said:

MayCaesar Said:

If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

"Thats proberly quite right and I reckon that 99% of atheists dont understand a lot of scientific terms.

 I am not a scientist but my mate and me used to do a lot of scientific experiments in the shed so I know at least some science. But the thing is that most sensible people can understand what a heap of scientists are telling us and go with it. We dont need to believe every thing but at least we should accept that the sky is blue and stop going against conventional wisdom."

Neglecting to do this not only makes you appear insincere but also like a desperate coward. Your argument, in summary, is that science is generally obvious to everyone. This is also reflected in your absurd statements such as 'We all know the sky is blue.

Furthermore, science is concerned with the naturalistic, materialistic nature of the world and not with theism. Period! Although some religious and/or philosophical arguments might entail aspects of science, this doesn't negate the fact that this simply is not what scientists do.

"So this is the one thing that I think religious people do. They take the simplest explanation and run with it. Just because science or quantum physics might be perceived to be hard to learn does that mean we should leave it out of arguments? No we shouldnt because it is 100 times more right than making up willy nilly gut feeling beliefs or believing what some con man told you."

As for this part, if you wish to continue referencing aspects such as quantum mechanics that are entirely unrelated to theistic religions/philosophies, similar to what Deepak does, then by all means, proceed. However, this approach will not enhance the strength of your argument. At best, it will merely demonstrate a lack of understanding on your part regarding the topic at hand, including the aspects you are referencing.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@ZeusAres42

If I am to be frank, I do not think @just_sayin understands 99% of scientific terms or statements he references.

May, honestly, I've felt the same about you.  Feel free to add more math or science to the discussions.  I'll do my best to keep up with you.  

just_sayin

elijah44 said:

@just_sayin, are we supposed to know everything?

Science of the gaps responses are frequently given by atheists who display a type of faith in the very science that is saying what they believe isn't possible or likely.  Just read through the prayer, universe, abiogenesis, and evidence of the resurrection debates. .  The classic line is 'well they don't know now, but trust me, they will figure it out'.  It occurs frequently on the site.  It would not matter to some how much evidence is put forward, how many eye witnesses there are, how many medical records and doctor's signed testimonies, some atheists have so much faith in scientism, that no amount of evidence matters to them.

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

Well, I do not know about that. When you posted Penrose's argument, I took a couple of hours to dive deep into it and somewhat understand all the equations, hoping that you have done the same... Then I learned that you do not even understand the central claim of the Big Bang Theory, let alone the mathematical apparatus behind Penrose's argument. I am open to the idea that my understanding is severely lacking, but you are unlikely to be the one to demonstrate it to me.