Is it possible to create a Palestinian State ? (1)

just_sayin

Argument Topic: No not possible to create a Palestinian state at this time

The Israeli government has agreed on 8 occasions to a 2 state solution, however the representatives of the Palestinians have reject the terms.  As long as Hamas has as its mission statement to wipe out all Jews no 2 state solution is possible.  From the Anti-Defamation league webpage:

Statements by Hamas officials make clear the terrorist organization’s commitment to destroying Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world. 

• Ismail Haniyeh in 2020: He explained that Hamas rejects ceasefire agreements by which, “Gaza would become Singapore,” preferring to remain at war with Israel until a Palestinian state is established from the River to the Sea: “We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.” 
• Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” 
• Hamas Political Bureau Chairman Saleh Al-Arouri in an August 2023 interview:  He expressed Hamas’ desire for “total war” with Israel: “Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.” 
• Ahmad Abd Al-Hadi (Hamas representative in Lebanon) in an October 12, 2023 TV show laid out Hamas’ expectation that it would be Israel that would sue for peace and indicated that a ceasefire is part of Hamas’ overall strategy, but said that he was not at liberty to say what exactly Hamas has planned for the next step after a ceasefire. He also stated that October 7 had achieved its intended purpose of landing “a blow to the normalization (of relations between Israel and Arab countries).” 
• Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. 
• In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the blood of the Ummah with the blood of the people of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Palestine on the land of Palestine for its liberation and the liberation of Jerusalem?” 

jack

bluesky said:

the creation of Palestine is very difficult to accomplish. 

Hello b:

Yes - difficult..  But, not impossible.  What?? 

excon

Bogan

With HAMAS declaring that they are going to repeat their outrage "over and over again", Israel has no choice except to wipe out HAMAS (and especially their leaders) right off the face of the map.     Th best way for western societies to combat this insane Muslim terrorism is to stop funding HAMAS through UN contributions.   We must also absolutely refuse toa accept any "Palestinian" refuges who are already becoming a menace and a security threat within out own societies.     This is a Muslim problem caused by their evil religion, and since they created it, they can deal with the consequences of it it themselves.    

bluesky

Argument Topic: Is it possible to create a Palestinian state ? (2)

We must keep in mind that Israel has been invading Palestine and has been trying for occupying wide area of Palestine 
for many years.  The leader of Israel should have the sympathy and humanity for the people of Palestine as a human 
being who live in the Middle East together.  Before tackling a nation- building dialog and negotiation for ending the war 
between Israel and Hamas of Palestine is urgently required.
A nation-building is a very challenging problem. Unfortunately, Palestine has neither enough financial sources nor higher educational institutions and many talented people. In other words, Israel does not have enough  resources for 
economic development.  The main reason is that many workers in Palestine have been compelled to work with very
low wages under the domination and control since the end of World War Second. 
In other words, it is not too much to say that Palestine has been a colony of Israel after the World War Second.  
Since the war in October, 2023. many people in Palestine are facing severe shortage of food, water, safety house and 
medical supplies.  Under these dire situation they are determined to fighting war with Israel desperately instead of engaging in a nation-building.
To live or die is a urgent problem for many people of Palestine every day.     
   
    (my argument to be continued)     
                                                                                          

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: What The World Owes Palestinians


Palestinians sided with Hitler during World War II.  The world owes Palestinians nothing.

Bogan

@bluesky

Bluesky quote  We must keep in mind that Israel has been invading Palestine and has been trying for occupying wide area of Palestine for many years. 

“Palestine” has never been a “country.”      It was just a province of the Ottomans in which the indigenous Jews were openly persecuted by the Muslims.     After the British defeated the Ottomans, the British tried to create a “country” in Palestine, like they did with Iraq.    But the question of who would be the dominant culture, which made the laws of this new “country” was impossible to solve.    Islam will never accept a subservient role, it must always seek to dominate.     And the Arabs even refused partition, over and over again.     With Jews refusing to be second class citizens in a county run by Muslims, and Muslims refusing to share power or partition within this new country in any way, then what resulted was war.     And in war, winner takes all.       When faced with an enemy who is openly claiming that it is going to exterminate you, then if you win, then taking more land and resources from your implacable enemy in order to give your own defense depth, is a basic military necessity.   

 

Bluesky quote   The leader of Israel should have the sympathy and humanity for the people of Palestine as a human being who live in the Middle East together. 

You could say the same things about Muslims.     But they do not see things that way.     Their prophet hated the Jews, and so they hate the Jews.     Muslim armies conquered Isreal/Palestine and tore down the second temple, and then they built a dirty great mosque upon the ruins.    This is Islam’s way of saying “the land of the Jews is now Muslim forever!”     This is exactly like Hitler claiming that wherever a German soldier put his foot, not a backwards step will be taken.  

 

Bluesky quote  Before tackling a nation- building dialog and negotiation for ending the war between Israel and Hamas of Palestine is urgently required.

That would require Muslims agreeing to Israel's right to exist, which they will never do.    Their religion demands that this affront to Allah be wiped off the map.    Jewish populations everywhere all know what that means.   They have been through that scenario previously.   Many times.  

 

Bluesky quote  A nation-building is a very challenging problem.

 It is very challenging for du-mb and religiously thinking Muslim’s, not so challenging for smart Israelis.   The smart Israelis have taken a tiny sliver of land with no resources except the exceptional brains of it’s people, and turned Israel into the only really economically viable state in the Middle East that is not floating on a sea of oil.

 

Bluesky quote  Unfortunately, Palestine has neither enough financial sources nor higher educational institutions and many talented people. In other words, Israel does not have enough resources for economic development. 

 Muslims definitely lack “talented people.”     Which is another way of saying “people with brains”.   If Gaza swapped locations with Israel, the Israelis would soon make Gaza a prosperous nation, while Palestine would sink back into just another third world Muslim sheethole. 

 

Bluesky quote  The main reason is that many workers in Palestine have been compelled to work with very low wages under the domination and control since the end of World War Second. 

 The main reason why Palestinians work in Israel is because the only jobs that billions in UN aid to Gaza does is to create jobs building tunnels and rockets. 

Bluesky quote  In other words, it is not too much to say that Palestine has been a colony of Israel after the World War Second.

The Jews indigenous to Israel deny that.     And if you are trying to claim that Jewish immigrants are colonising Palestine, the same can be said of the Muslims now illegally barging into Europe, because their own Muslim countries are sheetholes.    

 

Bluesky quote  Since the war in October, 2023. many people in Palestine are facing severe shortage of food, water, safety house and medical supplies. 

Then declaring that Israel has a right to exist would allow them to begin addressing these problems.   But the Muslim clergy would not like that.    Just as in "1984", the "Big Brother" imams and ayatollahs need an enemy for their people to hate, in order to blame the enemy for their own Muslim societal shortcomings.  

 Bluesky quote   Under these dire situation they are determined to fighting war with Israel desperately instead of engaging in a nation-building.

 The Muslim imams and Ayatollahs are determined to wipe out Israel because it is an affront to their religion and their non existent God.     They can not be bothered with “nation building” even within their own countries.    Every Muslim country not floating on oil is a sheethole, and the more Muslim it is, the more of a sheethole it is.   This is because the Muslim clergy like it that way.    A system where a bunch of elites sit at the top of the pile of crap while the peasantry remain in ignorance, is what elites always want, in every country throughout history. 

 

Bluesky quote    To live or die is a urgent problem for many people of Palestine every day.   

The same can be said for Israelis.    Unfortunately, Israel is surrounded by a billion religious nut cases who can not create functioning societies within their own countries, using Islam as their blueprint.   As such, a successful nation like Israel built upon a religion which Islam utterly despises, is an unwelcome reminder of how their own religion has failed them.    Israel must be destroyed. 

MayCaesar

It is absolutely possible to create the state. The question is only what the state is going to look like. When the most influential political groups in the region are terrorist organizations such as Fatah, Hamas and the Islamic Brotherhood, and when the main idea of the Palestinian politics is removal of Israel from the map, I expect an independent Palestinian state to look much like Afghanistan does under the rule of Taliban:



Whether it is an improvement over the current situation, I will leave out for you to decide.

Factfinder

jack said:

bluesky said:

the creation of Palestine is very difficult to accomplish. 

Hello b:

Yes - difficult..  But, not impossible.  What?? 

excon

Hi Jack

It would have been simpler back in 1947 had the Palestinians accepted the two state option. But they rejected it because they believe Israelis don't have a right to life or to exist. Like it or not that mindset still prevails to this day is the cause of all the problems. 

Putin

@JulesKorngold
And so did the proponents of an independent Ukraine, but that's different, for some reason.

bluesky

Argument Topic: Is it possible to create a Palestinian state ? (3)

Bogen, thank you for your comment. Your arguments contributed to broadening my perspectives on Israel and 
Palestina.  For nation-building the most important thing is the stable supply of younger and middle-aged labor-force.
However, unfortunately the number of present and future workers is decreasing caused by war. 
From the longer-term perspectives this situation contributes to making a severe bottleneck for a nation-building. 
 Regarding to this problem, Fakhri, a law professor at the university of Oregon argues that ``the speed of malnourishment of young children is also astounding. The bombing and people being killed directly is brutal but 
this starvation - and the wasting and stunting of children- is torturous and vile. It will have a long-term impact on 
the population physically, cognitively and morally. All thing indicate that this has been intentional. ``1) 

And ``indispensable objects include food, water and shelter which systematically denying Palestinians. 
Starvation is a war crime under the Geneva convention and the Rome statute. ``2)
Israel is destroying ``the future of the Palestinian people by harming their children. ``3)
Things are getting worse day by day. ``The catastrophic situation could still get worse. In late January, more than
a dozen countries including the U.S., the UK, Germany, Australia and Canada suspended funds to the U.N. Relief and 
Works Agency for Palestine Refugees(UNRWA) ``4) 

What is urgently needed for Palestine at present situation is the military and food aid offered by the countries in the 
Middle East like Iran, Syria and Lebanon which are well prepared for supporting the fighting with Israel.  

  Sources: 1),2),3),4)  https://www.theguardian.com. ;               
    
      (to be continued)     

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: The Battlefield

@bluesky
Hamas hides behind civilians and places them on the battlefield.  Civilian deaths are the result of Hamas tactics.

Bogan

@bluesky

The last I heard, there is around 50% unemployment for young Muslim men on Middle Eastern countries, which is why so many young Muslim men gatecrash into western countries.

Islam is basically a warriors religion which depended almost entirely upon conquest and its geography in being at the Junction of three continents for its prosperity.     But as an economic blueprint for modern success it is a joke.     However, the ayatollah and imams could not give a shiit, provided that they and the other elites stay at the top of the power pyramid with all the money and set they want.

Young Muslim.men without family influence either go to western countries to have a future, or become Jihadis fighting for Islam.    The destruction of Israel  is just a business model for corrupt Muslim clergy and their Muslim elite supporters.

The Jews have contributed much to western culture and science.    Wherever Jews exist in the western world, they are valued as productive and law abiding.    Which is a lot more than you can say for Muslims.     Whichever western country that Muslims infest, they are noted for their high rates of welfare dependency and serious criminal behaviour.

I prefer to support the people who stand on their own two feet and contribute to the common good.   If you wish to support the low IQ slackers who never stop complaining about everything, then that is your decision

Factfinder

bluesky said:

Bogen, thank you for your comment. Your arguments contributed to broadening my perspectives on Israel and 
Palestina.  For nation-building the most important thing is the stable supply of younger and middle-aged labor-force.
However, unfortunately the number of present and future workers is decreasing caused by war. 
From the longer-term perspectives this situation contributes to making a severe bottleneck for a nation-building. 
 Regarding to this problem, Fakhri, a law professor at the university of Oregon argues that ``the speed of malnourishment of young children is also astounding. The bombing and people being killed directly is brutal but 
this starvation - and the wasting and stunting of children- is torturous and vile. It will have a long-term impact on 
the population physically, cognitively and morally. All thing indicate that this has been intentional. ``1) 

And ``indispensable objects include food, water and shelter which systematically denying Palestinians. 
Starvation is a war crime under the Geneva convention and the Rome statute. ``2)
Israel is destroying ``the future of the Palestinian people by harming their children. ``3)
Things are getting worse day by day. ``The catastrophic situation could still get worse. In late January, more than
a dozen countries including the U.S., the UK, Germany, Australia and Canada suspended funds to the U.N. Relief and 
Works Agency for Palestine Refugees(UNRWA) ``4) 

What is urgently needed for Palestine at present situation is the military and food aid offered by the countries in the 
Middle East like Iran, Syria and Lebanon which are well prepared for supporting the fighting with Israel.  

  Sources: 1),2),3),4)  https://www.theguardian.com. ;               
    
      (to be continued)     

All the more reason for hamas to lay down their arms and for Palestinians to be for themselves having better lives more than being bigoted towards Israel.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

All the more reason for hamas to lay down their arms and for Palestinians to be for themselves having better lives more than being bigoted towards Israel.


Maybe if they read that book of profound philosophy put forward by you  ........ wait for it.......The vampre diaries .....yes folks he's an American Trumper 

bluesky

Argument Topic: Is it possible to create a Palestinian state ? (4)

On March 15, 2024 Muhammad Mustafa has been appointed as the new prime minister of the Palestinian Authority. 
His appointment was ``a nod to international demands for a more technocratic and less corrupt administration.``1)
However, it is uncertain and doubtful whether a new prime minister will pave the way for ending the war between 
Israel and Palestine and can contribute to building a peaceful and stable country of Palestine. 
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the possibility is very low. 
The most important problem is that the compromise, consensus and cooperative attitude between Hamas and the 
Palestinian Authority led by the new prime minister is urgently required to stabilize Palestine.  
However, the important fact is that many people of Palestine support and rely on the power and leadership exerted 
by Hamas.   The ultimate purpose of Hamas is to continue fighting with Israel till the destroy the state of Israel and 
to make Israel accept the demand and request presented by Hamas. 

We must pay much attention to the fact that Hamas ``has earned significant popularity and credibility among 
Palestinians through its war against Israel. ``2) 
Mouin Rabbani, an expert on Palestinian politics says that ``I`ve seen no indication that the process leading to his 
appointment (new prime minister) is being driven by Palestinians, but by foreign powers, either regional or 
international.``3) 

Building a new nation requires a new government which is supported by all walks of life. 
In the case of Palestine, it must be a government ``on the basis of agreement and consensus by all Palestinian 
factions , including Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.``4) 
However, unfortunately when we take the uncooperative and antagonistic situation existing among Hamas, 
Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the new prime minister into consideration, it seems to me that realizing the consensus
and dialog among them is very difficult task in the near future.  

   References:  1),2),3),4)   `New Palestinian prime minister offers little hope for change`, http://www.nytimes.com.
                                           2024/3/15/

      (to be continued)