Does Morality Mean "Obeying Gods"?

Putin

No, it means obeying Putin.

Putin

JulesKorngold said:

No.  Morality means "liberating yourself and others from suffering."

Fascism is suffering, by your logic, I am very moral.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Is That The Best You've Got?

@Putin
Did you come up with that yourself?

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Atheists have their feet firmly planted in midair

Its not that atheists can't be moral people - its that atheism offers no basis for an objective morality.  Atheists pretty much 'borrow' theistic moral systems.  If you believe the universe came from nothing, then there ultimately is no right nor wrong.  You are just the product of natural processes which created you.  You have no certainty that your mind works without flaws, so you are using a brain created by imperfect processes to determine what is good and evil.  Kinda sus.  Further, since there is no objective moral foundation, the atheists morality is based on their own mind, which is an imperfect creation, and who is to say that your morals are any better than a serial killers morals.  Your morality may conflict with the serial killers.  So in this world view, might makes right.  The morals of the powerful will prevail.

If you claim that morals are based on what the group says, then it is still not objective, as one group's morals may differ from yours.  If one group decides its moral to kill your group, then might makes right. 

If you argue that some things are right or wrong, no matter what the group claims, then you believe there is objective truth.  However, there is no basis for such a thing within atheism. The atheist finds his feet firmly planted in midair - for their is no objective moral foundation in their world view.  When you appeal to objective morals, know that they can only come from an objective moral lawgiver - and none exists in the atheists world view.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

ARGUMENT TOPIC : there is no such thing as " objective morality" 

I NOTE YOU CHICKED OUT OF THE BIBLICAL SLAVERY DEBATE AFTER SAYING YOU WOULD GIVE IT A GO , THATS 3 TIMES NOW ,YOU MAY GET HELP IF YOU WISH.


Its not that atheists can't be moral people - its that atheism offers no basis for an objective morality

It's not required as all moral views are merely expressions of approval/ disapproval. 


.  Atheists pretty much 'borrow' theistic moral systems

They don't, I've yet to meet an Atheist who approves of slavery yet every Christian I've met will defend biblical  slavery which tells how slaves are your property and may be bought , sold , inherited and beaten.

Also the golden rule was ancient in the time of Jesus , ever hear of Confuscious?

"Theistic morality " calls for death to homosexuals , the right to own people as property , the treatment of Woman as second class citizens,  genocide in gods name , etc,etc

.  If you believe the universe came from nothing, then there ultimately is no right nor wrong

What's nothing?  Why would there be no right or wrong?


.  You are just the product of natural processes which created you

I am and?

.  You have no certainty that your mind works without flaws, so you are using a brain created by imperfect processes to determine what is good and evil

Who has " certainty"? Why is " certainty"required to treat people well?




l.  Kinda sus.  Further, since there is no objective moral foundation, the atheists morality is based on their own mind, which is an imperfect creation, and who is to say that your morals are any better than a serial killers morals.

Well for a start do you not accept the majority of Atheists are not in jail for criminal activity yet serial killers are ?


Your contention seems to be that every moral  decision a christain makes  is based on God's will ? Seriously ?


  Your morality may conflict with the serial killers.  So in this world view, might makes right.  The morals of the powerful will prevail.

You're making stuff up now and you're not very convincing 

If you claim that morals are based on what the group says, then it is still not objective, as one group's morals may differ from yours

Yes , which is why Muslims believe in god and thus Sharia law you believe in what your group ( christians) say unless of course they're catholic , Mormon,  Amish etc , etc......

.  If one group decides its moral to kill your group, then might makes right. 

You mean  like God commanded Moses to do regards the Midanites?

If you argue that some things are right or wrong, no matter what the group claims, then you believe there is objective truth

You mean like Muslims?


.  However, there is no basis for such a thing within atheism

It's not nor ever was required.


. The atheist finds his feet firmly planted in midair - for their is no objective moral foundation in their world view

No, the Atheists feet are firmly on the ground.

.  When you appeal to objective morals, know that they can only come from an objective moral lawgiver - and none exists in the atheists world view.

Name 5 or 6  of these objective moral  " truths"you adhere to?

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Its not that atheists can't be moral people - its that atheism offers no basis for an objective morality

Kudos on your preaching abilities but as you know this is a debate site of which you've lost this debate numerous times already. No matter how many times you preach fallacy, it remains false. 

Where your illogic always fails you is claiming an imaginary god derived from 66 fictious myth books combined into one, somehow dispenses morals when the violence contained within the writings are subject to human oversight and correction through the canonization process. In other words humans condoned acts of violence on behalf of their god as it is written and that just signifies human approval based in fantasy. Subjective. Open to interpretation. Far from objective.   

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Its not that atheists can't be moral people - its that atheism offers no basis for an objective morality

Kudos on your preaching abilities but as you know this is a debate site of which you've lost this debate numerous times already. No matter how many times you preach fallacy, it remains false. 

Where your illogic always fails you is claiming an imaginary god derived from 66 fictious myth books combined into one, somehow dispenses morals when the violence contained within the writings are subject to human oversight and correction through the canonization process. In other words humans condoned acts of violence on behalf of their god as it is written and that just signifies human approval based in fantasy. Subjective. Open to interpretation. Far from objective.   

The debate isn't about your hate of God.  My point is that there can not be objective morals within an atheistic framework - either morals are what an individual says they are, or what a group says they are.  Both individuals and groups are flawed and subject to personal prejudices.  Within atheism there is no objective source of morality to appeal to.  Your morals are no better than the morals of a pedophiles - both of you do what you think is best for yourself.  You may not like how I frankly frame the discussion, but it is the truth.

Factfinder

@Joeseph ;

It's not nor ever was required.

Spot on. 

MayCaesar

Not all of them. Only obeying Nocticula is moral; obeying any other god/goddess is heresy. Nocticula rewards her servants well with eternal... delights.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

It's truly tragic that we have to keep reminding Just saying of this.

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@Factfinder

It's truly tragic that we have to keep reminding Just saying of this.

Neither of you like to admit it, but you both know I'm right.  Atheism does not offer an objective source of what is good and evil.  Good and evil is just your personal opinion, or the opinion of a group.  Either of which can be subjugated by a more powerful person or group.  You can't say that something is objectively good or evil, only that it is your preference.  Atheism is a substandard system of morality, because it really isn't about justice or defending the weak, but defending the interests of the most powerful.  And we all know I'm right - and it angers you that it is true.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Its not that atheists can't be moral people - its that atheism offers no basis for an objective morality

Kudos on your preaching abilities but as you know this is a debate site of which you've lost this debate numerous times already. No matter how many times you preach fallacy, it remains false. 

Where your illogic always fails you is claiming an imaginary god derived from 66 fictious myth books combined into one, somehow dispenses morals when the violence contained within the writings are subject to human oversight and correction through the canonization process. In other words humans condoned acts of violence on behalf of their god as it is written and that just signifies human approval based in fantasy. Subjective. Open to interpretation. Far from objective.   

The debate isn't about your hate of God.  My point is that there can not be objective morals within an atheistic framework - either morals are what an individual says they are, or what a group says they are.  Both individuals and groups are flawed and subject to personal prejudices.  Within atheism there is no objective source of morality to appeal to.  Your morals are no better than the morals of a pedophiles - both of you do what you think is best for yourself.  You may not like how I frankly frame the discussion, but it is the truth.

It's not about you proclaiming a strawman to knock down that's for sure. I do not hate god, I don't believe it exist so how can I? 

This debate asked the question is obeying gods the defining principle behind morals? For that to be true we must first establish if there are gods. So far no evidence of one.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Neither of you like to admit it, but you both know I'm right.  Atheism does not offer an objective source of what is good and evil.  Good and evil is just your personal opinion, or the opinion of a group.  Either of which can be subjugated by a more powerful person or group.  You can't say that something is objectively good or evil, only that it is your preference.  Atheism is a substandard system of morality, because it really isn't about justice or defending the weak, but defending the interests of the most powerful.  And we all know I'm right - and it angers you that it is true.

It is a pretty funny idea that making up a fantasy creature and deriving morality from it leads to objective morality. I will from now on derive my morality from Orcs. Specifically from the Blackrock clan. Lok'tar Ogar!

Joeseph

@Factfinder

I see his latest claim is that we are angry because deep down we know the truth .....the guy is comedy gold.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

If a god does exist I say it would be Aphrodite and I'd happily obey her every command!   

Factfinder

Joeseph said:

@Factfinder

I see his latest claim is that we are angry because deep down we know the truth .....the guy is comedy gold.

LOL I know. Sometimes I think he really believes what he says about others because in some way it reinforces his faith since the facts don't do that for him.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Neither of you like to admit it, but you both know I'm right
 
The day you're right about anything your whole village will celebrate.


  Atheism does not offer an objective source of what is good and evil. 

Atheism is a postion on one question alone , you didn't know this seriously?


 Good and evil is just your personal opinion, or the opinion of a group. 

I asked you to list of a number of these objective facts you keep talking about , you fled.


Either of which can be subjugated by a more powerful person or group.  You can't say that something is objectively good or evil, only that it is your preference

Your god says owning people as property is fine thats his preference  , I disagree , I think that makes me morally superior.

.  Atheism is a substandard system of morality, because it really isn't about justice or defending the weak, but defending the interests of the most POWERFUL

You really  need to educate yourself on what the term Atheist means

l.  And we all know I'm right - and it angers you that it is true.

The only one displaying anger is you as you've fled the slavery debate 5 times now because  you're angry that  atheists hold themselves to a higher moral standard than your god.

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

If a god does exist I say it would be Aphrodite and I'd happily obey her every command!   

I still prefer Nocticula... Aphrodite is a little too vanilla. Nocticula though knows how to do love the right way. And how to punish the disobedient:

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: Within atheism there is no objective source of morality to appeal to.

@just_sayin

I´ḿ a UU which is a liberal, religious movement. We are tolerant of all religions and beliefs.

I believe God is in the details. Pay attention to the details. Pay attention to your conscience. Follow your own inner sense of morality in your actions and decisions. If you do good, then you feel good. If you do bad, then you feel  bad. 

I like the idea of one´s God being Aphrodite.

My personal God is Androgynous.

jack

Argument Topic: Does Morality Mean "Obeying Gods"?

@JulesKorngold

Hello J:

Nahh..  It means obeying one's conscience.  That's the inner feeling or voice one gets, that acts as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.  Most of us have a conscience.  Some of us don't.

excon

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@Factfinder

I see his latest claim is that we are angry because deep down we know the truth .....the guy is comedy gold.

@Joeseph, no one has said that you know the truth.  I have never claimed there is any truth in you - not even deep down in you.  @Factfinder, is angry with God.  You don't lash out in outbursts at someone you don't think exists.  If you have paid attention to his comments you know I'm right.  

For the atheist there is no basis for objective moral values.  Any moral value is derived, for if all there is is just matter -then morals do not arise from matter.  Instead morals are just either personal opinion or group think.  These morals are subjective and become consumed by the moral values of the more powerful individual or group. 

Factfinder

@just_sayin

@Joeseph, no one has said that you know the truth.  I have never claimed there is any truth in you - not even deep down in you.  @Factfinder, is angry with God.  You don't lash out in outbursts at someone you don't think exists.  If you have paid attention to his comments you know I'm right.  

More nails in your faith's coffin. Who have I "lashed out" at? Debunking your nonsense you repeat erroneously as "evidence" isn't lashing out, it's injecting truth concerning false unsubstantiated claims. Is that you above "lashing out"?

For the atheist there is no basis for objective moral values.  Any moral value is derived, for if all there is is just matter -then morals do not arise from matter.  Instead morals are just either personal opinion or group think.  These morals are subjective and become consumed by the moral values of the more powerful individual or group. 

You've provided no evidence of your imaginary 'objective morals' as you think they derived from a series of myths created by humans. 

Joeseph

@just_sayin

no one has said that you know the truth.

What is " truth"?

  I have never claimed there is any truth in you - not even deep down in you

What is "truth" ?

.  @Factfinder, is angry with God.

As far as I know F F is still atheist ....do you know what that means?



  You don't lash out in outbursts at someone you don't think exists. 

How do I ido that?


 If you have paid attention to his comments you know I'm right.  

For the atheist there is no basis for objective moral values

You mean like god approving of slavery.?


.  Any moral value is derived, for if all there is is just matter -then morals do not arise from matter.  Instead morals are just either personal opinion or group think. 

All morals are approval/disapproval prove otherwise? You've fled from the debate on objective morality when I asked your for a list of such, you also fled from defending biblical slavery.


 These morals are subjective and become consumed by the moral values of the more powerful individual or group. 

What are you on about.?