Christianity

Joeseph

If Jesus loves us all how come God the Father allows babies be born with cancer?

Jesus died for a weekend and got eternal life tell me how is that a " sacrifice" ?

Why did god the father insist his son die on a cross for us to be with him?

What you're really saying is Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to forgive our sins before we were even born in order to fulfill.a loophole he created for eternal life.

Sheer lunacy.

maxx

only if you can prove that the bible is fact, with out pointing to the bible as reference. As wel, why be religious at all? Jesus was not; he did not even start a religion. @Rock

just_sayin

maxx said:

only if you can prove that the bible is fact, with out pointing to the bible as reference. As wel, why be religious at all? Jesus was not; he did not even start a religion. @Rock

Jesus did not start a religion???  Some of the last words he said to the disciples were:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28:18-20

This is known as the Great Commission.  So it seems like the disciples were indeed doing what Jesus had instructed them to do.  Kind of hard to separate the mission of the apostles from the instructions Jesus gave them.

I think it is a bad argument to say that because something is in the Bible it must be dismissed as not having any accurate truth claims.  That seems more like personal prejudice.  There are multiple credible accounts from eye witnesses that Jesus arose from the dead - Matthew, John, Peter, James, Jude, and secondary evidence based on eye witness accounts from Mark, Luke, and Paul.  Further, Jesus death at the hands of Pontius Pilate and the disciples claim that Jesus was resurrected are attested to by Roman historians, Jewish historians, and Jesus' enemies.  Jesus enemies even claimed he performed miracles such as healing the lame, healing the blind, and raising the dead.  Why would your enemy claim you could perform miracles, if the evidence didn't support that?  The fact is you wouldn't.  

The earliest evidence we have of Jesus' death and resurrection is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which is said to be an early Christian creed, no later than 18 months after the resurrection.  That's too short of a time to claim that it is just myth.  The creed identifies specific people having seen Jesus resurrected like Peter and James.  Further, it is hard to explain why Paul, who was known to have killed Christians early on, to switch sides, if he wasn't convinced that Jesus had arose from the grave.

While someone may die for a cause they believe in, no one dies for something they know to be a lie.  That's what someone would have to believe about the apostles who were martyred for their faith.  If you disagree, please explain to me why the apostles died horrible deaths, for something they knew to be a lie?

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin


.
Just_sayin, the runaway from biblical axioms that he can't explain, and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath,

1. First thing, before I easily BIBLE SLAP YOU SILLY®️ again, you have yet to address my very revealing post directed to you where you have to be a JEW to be a Christian, why are you still embarrassingly running away from it in front of the membership?   Here is the post in question that you are HIDING from as an inept pseudo-christian: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180361/#Comment_180361



2. YOUR LAUGHABLE QUOTE WITH NO CITATATIONS:  "Jesus death at the hands of Pontius Pilate and the disciples claim that Jesus was resurrected are attested to by Roman historians, Jewish historians, and Jesus' enemies."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180728/#Comment_180728

List the historical peer reviewed citations to your perceived knowledge where Roman, Jewish, and Jesus' enemies "eye-witnessed" Jesus' zombie resurrection after his 3-day "tomb nap!"

BEGIN:



3. YOUR REVEALING QUOTE TO FOLLOW IN WHAT JESUS TELLS YOU TO DO: "Kind of hard to separate the mission of the apostles from the instructions Jesus gave them."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180728/#Comment_180728

Okay, therefore in the following passage Jesus says to follow it as well:   JESUS AS GOD SAID: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)

Just_sayin, in the verse above, your serial killer Jesus is promoting the murdering of a parents offspring if they curse them!  Therefore, have you ever had to murder one of you offspring because they cursed you, or do you tell your pseudo-christian friends about this passage literally spoken by your serial killer Jesus, where they are to murder their children that curse them?  YES?  

4. YOUR DUMBFOUNDED QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP:  "The earliest evidence we have of Jesus' death and resurrection is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which is said to be an early Christian creed, no later than 18 months after the resurrection."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180728/#Comment_180728

H-E-L-L-O?  Jesus died, or ascended towards heaven (Acts 1:9), in 33CE, and the book of Corinthians by Paul was written in 54CE, 21 YEARS SUBSEQUENT to Jesus' ascension skyward or his death, and NOT 18 MONTHS like you deceivingly stated!  Why do you remain such an outright regarding your faith? Huh?  Then you wonder why I call you a "pseudo-christian!"  LOL!



NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE ...."JUST_SAYIN" .... THAT LIES ABOUT HIS PRIMITIVE FAITH OF CHRISTIANITY, WILL BE .......?


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Rock

The cause of cancer is not God or his doing at all. All suffering and evil was unleashed when in Genesis Adam and Eve disobeyed and sinned against God. The whole point in the sacrifice of Jesus was God's demonstration on his love for us. Jesus himself while dying on the cross forgave those who were cursing him and yelling at him saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  this goes the same for you and you saying that his "loophole" of eternal life Jesus still does love you and wants you to be apart of eternal life with you. @Joeseph

Factfinder

Rock said:

The cause of cancer is not God or his doing at all. All suffering and evil was unleashed when in Genesis Adam and Eve disobeyed and sinned against God. The whole point in the sacrifice of Jesus was God's demonstration on his love for us. Jesus himself while dying on the cross forgave those who were cursing him and yelling at him saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  this goes the same for you and you saying that his "loophole" of eternal life Jesus still does love you and wants you to be apart of eternal life with you. @Joeseph

@Rock

Why would someone need to be forgiven for pointing out the obvious? If there are truths that make god feel unnerved then it isn't perfect. Jesus according to scripture is the god by whom all things exist so obviously the crucifixion was never a true death blow delivered to god; so why would god be upset for questioning the claim Jesus died when obviously he didn't? 

Rock

There are over 100 discoveries that can relate to the reliability of the Bible.

The Pilate Inscription. In John 18:29 it mentions that Pontius Pilatus was indeed the prefect of Judea. And in 1961 archaeologists had found a plate with the inscription in Latin "Pontius Pilatus Praefectus Judaeae". Matching that description in John 18:29.

Hezekiah's tunnel mentioned in 2nd Chronicles 32:30. Mentioning that Hezekiah stopped a water outlet of Upper Gihon, and brought the water by tunnel to the west side city of David. Most definitely we think we would find a tunnel that was dug up by King under the city of Jerusalem and which they did find a huge tunnel that matched that of the description in 2nd Chronicles. 

A discovery made by Robert Taylor in 1830 finding the "Taylor prism." and finding a 15 inch tall cylinder with inscriptions on the side. This was written by Sennacherib King of Assyria in 720 BC-683 BC. Whom was mentioned in the Bible. The Prism read "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke. I laid siege to 46 of his strong cities, walled forts, and to countless small villages in their vicinity, and conquered them by means of well stamped Earth ramps and battering rams. When you compare the historical description of Sennacherib and what he did to the description of the Bible in 2nd Chronicles 32:1 "Sennacherib king of Assyria came and entered Judah; he encamped against the fortified cities." Exactly how Sennacherib claimed that he did.

David Inscription. In 1993 Avraham Biran discovered a stone with a inscription of a Israelite King from the House of David. This inscription confirms the existence of David and relates to the same information in 1 Kings 12:19.

Moabite stone found in 1868. Black basalt stone where Misha cut the lines of text in about 850 BC mentioning Omri being the king Israel and that "I Will see my desire upon him and his house" Just as 1 Kings 16:21-28 and further more we find that also later on we find that Ahab his son also ruled in his place. Also which is stated in 2 Kings 3:4-6 also mentioning Mesha being the king of Moab and including the Tribe of Gad and the stone mentioning YHWH the israelite God.

Also to mention for the Bible and the scribes and translators followed very strict rules when translating the Bible. 

•  Scribes could only use clean animal skins to write on and bind manuscripts.
•  Scribes had to use black ink made from a special recipe.
•  Scribes had to say each word aloud while writing.
• Scribes also had to throw away their mistakes and completely restart their translations from their mistakes

Furthermore these are examples on the reliability and the historical reliability of the Bible as well. 
  @maxx

Rock

That answer is simple those who cursed Jesus needed to be forgiven because collectively they all are unrighteous and unholy. Asking for them to be forgiven for the killing of Jesus and their part in him is obvious, but is also a huge key part in the demonstration of the love Jesus had for us. This is also a demonstration of forgiveness to us.

These truths that unnerve God is caused by us. We ourselves are not perfect, but God himself. We were created in the image of God. This is why God becomes upset with us because we are set to live a godly path which is narrow and unpopular and a hard life, but Jesus did live that sinless life so we can be apart of paradise with him because of his death. My friend Jesus does love you and he died on the cross so that you can have eternal life with him. 

Joeseph

@Rock

But who "unleashed " cancer? You just said its because of Adams and Eves disobedience right?

So why do babies have to get cancer because god is annoyed with Adam and Eve?

Jesus didn't make a " sacrifice" he died for a weekend and if this is a demonstration of God's love why does god let babies get cancer? Can he not prevent it?

If God loved me why would he want me to suffer eternal life in his company?

Eternal life sounds like torture beyond belief, what's so good about eternal life.

Joeseph

@Rock

The bible is a contradictory book of mostly tall tales ,while it does have some historical accuracy not one credible historian accepts its miracle claims , also it depicts a power crazy psychotic bullying god who indulges in childish rages and furies at his subjects.

Joeseph

@Rock

But god or Jesus cannot love their followers if that was the case then why would god watch and ignore the prayers of Jews who pleaded and prayed while facing the gas chamber?

If you or I saw a man about to attack and rape a child I think we would agree that we would attempt to save the child right?

Your god chooses to watch when he could save so why is he worthy of worship?

maxx

jesus did not start the religion. his followers did.  jesus was nor claimed to be a Christian or any denomination. As for rthe rest of your reply, i agree parts of the bible, mainly in the old testament, have some actual historical validity,  such as certain sites. howe ver, most of what you said is circular reason; in other words, the book is true because the book says so. That is akin to saying" I must be right, because i say i am. Take an example: moses, and him leading his people from eygpt. Now if you know anything about the early Egyptians, then you would know, they wrote EVERYTHING down. They were the greatest historians in the world at the time. However there is no mention of any plagues, nor of moses, nor any of it. The reason people go by faith, is because they can offer no proof. A lot of what is in the bible are metaphors; or stories borrowed from earlier sources. Such as the flood. It has been traced back to early Gilgamesh; perhaps even earlier. If there is a god, or some sort of creator, then it has nothing at all to do with any of the religons on earth. It is easy to see and trace how religion got started in the first place; through ancient humans belief it cause and effect; superstion. Over time this belief built and evolved into the idea of many different kinds of gods. .As people migrated, they took their beliefs with them, and many of the beliefs over generations changed and were different than other cultures and tribes. That is the way religion evolved and it continued until what we have in the world today. Did some sort og being(s) create the universe? I dont know; but if so, then it is a far cry from any of the ideas we have in earth.   @just_sayin

Barnardot

@Rock ;Jesus still does love you and wants you to be apart of eternal life with you

But then again he seems to hate the guts of starving innocent children suffering in pain and gets his Dad to not help them but knock 10000 of them off every day real slowly. Your imaginary Christ friend seems to be a bit yin and yang to me

just_sayin

maxx said:

jesus did not start the religion. his followers did.  jesus was nor claimed to be a Christian or any denomination. As for rthe rest of your reply, i agree parts of the bible, mainly in the old testament, have some actual historical validity,  such as certain sites. howe ver, most of what you said is circular reason; in other words, the book is true because the book says so. That is akin to saying" I must be right, because i say i am. Take an example: moses, and him leading his people from eygpt. Now if you know anything about the early Egyptians, then you would know, they wrote EVERYTHING down. They were the greatest historians in the world at the time. However there is no mention of any plagues, nor of moses, nor any of it. The reason people go by faith, is because they can offer no proof. A lot of what is in the bible are metaphors; or stories borrowed from earlier sources. Such as the flood. It has been traced back to early Gilgamesh; perhaps even earlier. If there is a god, or some sort of creator, then it has nothing at all to do with any of the religons on earth. It is easy to see and trace how religion got started in the first place; through ancient humans belief it cause and effect; superstion. Over time this belief built and evolved into the idea of many different kinds of gods. .As people migrated, they took their beliefs with them, and many of the beliefs over generations changed and were different than other cultures and tribes. That is the way religion evolved and it continued until what we have in the world today. Did some sort og being(s) create the universe? I dont know; but if so, then it is a far cry from any of the ideas we have in earth.   @just_sayin

If Jesus instructed the apostles to go out and do what they did, then it is fair to say Jesus is the founder of Christianity.  It is named after Christ, in case you hadn't noticed.  Interesting to note - the enemies of Jesus and the historians of that era cite Jesus as the founder. Tacitus (56-120AD), Roman historian, claimed the name Christian came from Christ.  He also pointed out that Jesus was killed under Pontius Pilate and that  'a most mischievous superstition' had broken out in Judea about him.  Suetonius (69-140AD), a Roman historian, wrote "Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2).  Phlegon (80 - 140 AD), enemy of Christianity, is cited by Origen as saying "“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59).  It seems evident that the belief was that Jesus rose from the dead, and that Christianity was in response to that act and Jesus command to go and tell others.  I could go on (and I will later).

I'm not sure what you know of the history of Jesus.  Where do you think we can find these details (see next paragraph)?

"Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death".  (sited from Cold Case Christianity - you can read some of the sources there)

Did you say the Bible?  WRONG!!!!!!  All of these details, which confirm what the Bible says, can be found from writings from Jesus' enemies, or Roman, Jewish, or Syrian historians or sources.  In fact, there are 42 sources that mention Jesus within 100 years of his death - about 1/3 to half from non-Christian sources.  To put that into perspective for you - the most famous person during the life of Jesus probably would have been Tiberius Caesar.  There are only 15 sources that mention him within 150 years after his death (about half of them only mention him because he was reigning while Jesus was alive).  

The evidence from the non-Christians, some whom were unapologetic enemies of Christianity making obvious false allegations, even their testimonies, suggests that the eye witness accounts are credible, because so many core details agree - Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate, died, buried in a tomb, the tomb was found empty, and the disciples claimed to have seen him resurrected.  

You mentioned the flood. You are correct that other traditions have flood accounts, some with a few of the same details found in the Bible - all very different in some details though.  Have you considered that all the flood accounts may arise from one historical incident?  That would make sense.  Now, I personally don't know if the first 12 chapters of Genesis should be taken literally or are as mytho-history and were not intended to be thought of as literal as William Lane Craig believes. However, what one believes about those first 12 chapters does not negate the historical evidence for Jesus' death and resurrection though.

To suggest individual eye witness accounts should be instantly dismissed because they are in the Bible is not an idea based on the credibility or historicity of the accounts, but person animus.  They are not 1 account, but many accounts. Each account must be considered on its own for its historical content.  Even within each account it is possible that you may determine 1 thing is not true, but another thing is historically accurate.  To dismiss something completely out of hand though, as you have done, is not a scholarly historical approach, but reflects your own biases.    

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Rock ; Jesus and the Gospel are the only entities that can save America via sustainable mores, norms, values, ethics.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph Without Jesus as your Messiah for the atonement of sin, you will perish in Hell.

Rock

Great point that baby with cancer did nothing, but my friend babies did not get cancer because of an annoyance of them disobeying him. Say for example that a 16-year-old kid is driving and slides on black ice and dies. Life is "unfair" but God is fair and to not mix those two things up. Looking into Job's life for example that is a perfect example of how life is unfair but God is not. God blessed him with twice as much as he had because of his faithfulness through out these terrible things that had happened to him. You also see the fact in Job how all of his friends came up to him and told him all of these bad things are happening because of you sinning, and later on God tells Job you better pray for your friends because I am going to judge them for their self righteous wrong council. The premise of Job is that faith is not based on the circumstances of life, but rather so the character of God being good. 

Eternal life is good because you no longer will have to live in this world. The only thing that this world will bring you is a grave. Knowing that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, your sins, and everyone else's sins. Because of that death of Jesus we are made righteous through him. You will be renewed and there will be no sickness, no disease, no death, and you are not a ghost but you will have a body that never degrades. 

Joeseph said:

@Rock

But god or Jesus cannot love their followers if that was the case then why would god watch and ignore the prayers of Jews who pleaded and prayed while facing the gas chamber?

If you or I saw a man about to attack and rape a child I think we would agree that we would attempt to save the child right?

Your god chooses to watch when he could save so why is he worthy of worship?

We were created to be complex creatures that can think, speak, and to have free will. This free will is how we make decisions in what we do. For example, I have free will to go up to store and steal a candy bar, but I realistically would not do that because we all have morals. We don't have to have the same morals to know that stealing is wrong. Obviously Hitler did not have that same morals and he chose to kill all of these Jews and that was his will that he chose to do. Just as the man who is attacking that child is choosing to commit that horrible act. You will notice if you look closely into the life I live I have the choice to do good and I don't do it and I'm a mixed up character, but Jesus can help me. Myself I am interested in excellence and that's why I look for Christ to help me. 
   @Joeseph

Rock

Barnardot said:

@Rock ;Jesus still does love you and wants you to be apart of eternal life with you

But then again he seems to hate the guts of starving innocent children suffering in pain and gets his Dad to not help them but knock 10000 of them off every day real slowly. Your imaginary Christ friend seems to be a bit yin and yang to me

My friend suffering is not because of God or Jesus because their innate character is good. When you look into Genesis chapter three you see where humans chose to go against God. Because we were created as a human to make decisions not a machine and we chose to go against him he respects our free will to be apart from him and steps back. Then chaos erupts and that was not God's intention for creation. The wages of sin is death as mentioned in Romans. Christ comes and dies for us as the ultimate solution to eternal life with no death, no disease, or starvation. We were born into a unjust, unfair world, and that is not because that is how God created it, but because of us choosing to go against God and he then steps back. God created order and that was his intention for creation.  @Barnardot

Factfinder

@Rock

That answer is simple those who cursed Jesus needed to be forgiven because collectively they all are unrighteous and unholy. Asking for them to be forgiven for the killing of Jesus and their part in him is obvious, but is also a huge key part in the demonstration of the love Jesus had for us. This is also a demonstration of forgiveness to us.

But the fact remains Jesus didn't die. The body he occupied died but not Jesus as your book states all things consist of him as god and creator. It created evil principalities that he holds together so claiming to die yet boasting in his word how he always was and is for by him all things exist; is deceptive. Us knowing that; it unnerves him. You and even your bible as much as says so...

Colossians 1:16&17: 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Genesis 2:17: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"

These truths that unnerve God is caused by us. We ourselves are not perfect, but God himself. We were created in the image of God. This is why God becomes upset with us because we are set to live a godly path which is narrow and unpopular and a hard life, but Jesus did live that sinless life so we can be apart of paradise with him because of his death. My friend Jesus does love you and he died on the cross so that you can have eternal life with him. 

By us??? We allowed Satan to enter the garden to tempt us? We created ourselves vulnerable and imperfect? We asked to be put in this position clearly not understanding the stakes involved?  We of our own freewill wanted to be forced to choose between believing in a god that perfectly hides yet wants acknowledgment and blind submission contrary to the intellect it impugned us with? I think not. Any society that exists while others are suffering horribly throughout eternity for such trivial reasons as being what you were created is far less than perfect. It is an oppressive authoritative dictatorship. No paradise. If it wanted true paradise and it really did exist it would have just done it with no suffering as in paradise there is no room for it.

maxx

I will get back to you this weekend when i have more time
 However,  Jesuslast name was not christ, he did not have a last name.  He nor Paul created Christianity,  for they were both jews, and died as jews.  Christianity just happened,  it simply slowly evolved over time as peoples beliefs changed. @just_sayin

just_sayin

maxx said:

I will get back to you this weekend when i have more time
 However,  Jesuslast name was not christ, he did not have a last name.  He nor Paul created Christianity,  for they were both jews, and died as jews.  Christianity just happened,  it simply slowly evolved over time as peoples beliefs changed. @just_sayin

Christ means Messiah - it was a title that described Jesus as the one prophesied about.  Jesus was described as 'Chrestus' by some Roman historians of that time.  

Now, Christianity did have its roots in Judaism.  The church started in Jerusalem, with Jesus' brother, James as its leader.  He was martyred - Josephus the Jewish Roman historian records this and that James was the brother of Jesus.  The Christians would first go to a synagogue or other meeting place (if there were less than 10 Jewish families in the community) and preach about Jesus there - if they were rejected they would go elsewhere - primarily houses.  So, it did have some connections with Judaism.  However, the Jews, like Saul, rejected the Christian message and saw Christianity as a threat and killed Christians.  Paul was converted to Christianity around 35 AD so, the persecution began very early.  Paul himself was the evangelist to the gentiles, and the church decided that gentile believers did not need to keep any Jewish laws (other than not drinking blood), so fairly early on you see a definitive break.  

Rock

But the fact remains Jesus didn't die. The body he occupied died but not Jesus as your book states all things consist of him as god and creator. 

Jesus in fact did die. Even in history outside of Christianity marks the death of Jesus. Jesus was the human entity of God. He was physical human that walked on the Earth proven by non Christian historical figures. Publius Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian and senator, wrote about Jesus in his Annals around 115 AD. There are two passages in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus, that are generally considered good evidence. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93–94, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. I know you are not saying the existence of Jesus was false, but these prove. The Bible even states he death of Jesus. 

In Romans 5:8 "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners"


Colossians 1:16&17: 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

For all of the context Colossians is a book of connections. Of which Paul combatted false teachings that had infiltrated the Colossian church. Paul was stressing the deity of Christ because the church was struggling with syncretism which was combining ideas from Judaism, and Greek philosophies. Just stressing of his connection with the father, and stressed his humanity. And in verse 16-17 he was demonstrating because of the false teachers believing that the physical world was evil, and they themselves had thought that God himself could not have created it. Also that if Christ was God, they reasoned, he would be in charge of only the spiritual world. Paul was explaining that all the thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities of both the real world and the physical world were create under Christ himself. Just was a statement that Jesus is God in the form of human and yet he did die and that the deity that is Christ is important because of his human existence among us to show how we should live and his physical real death so we could be with him. 

It was nor us or God that had Satan come out into the Garden. He himself was jealous of God and his creation Satan (the serpent) was cast out of heaven. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan's reliance on agency and proposed an altered plan that negated agency. Thus he became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven. Because of our free will of which we make choices and you make choices as well. We have the choice to live apart from God or to live with him. 
@Factfinder

Factfinder

@Rock

Jesus in fact did die. Even in history outside of Christianity marks the death of Jesus. Jesus was the human entity of God. He was physical human that walked on the Earth proven by non Christian historical figures. Publius Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian and senator, wrote about Jesus in his Annals around 115 AD. There are two passages in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus, that are generally considered good evidence. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93–94, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. I know you are not saying the existence of Jesus was false, but these prove. The Bible even states he death of Jesus. 

In Romans 5:8 "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners"

The brief notations of a physical person (body) who was called christ and the alleged claims made on his behalf were just that, brief reference to a cult that had arisen. These types of references in no way at all affirm the claims of the new religion, just that the movement had caused some problems with the ruling authorities of the time. That's why no where do you find elaborate confirmations anything existed out of the ordinary. Just religious uprisings that happened from time to time.  At no time did Tacitus or Josephus endorse a religious claim, especially extraordinary ones, as confirmed factual history. Only that there was claims made by this new sect and many followers seemed to be a result of the claims. There really is no evidence outside of tradition that some individual martyrs actually happened the way they say they did. Using the bible as evidence is circular reasoning, not evidence.

For all of the context Colossians is a book of connections. Of which Paul combatted false teachings that had infiltrated the Colossian church. Paul was stressing the deity of Christ because the church was struggling with syncretism which was combining ideas from Judaism, and Greek philosophies. Just stressing of his connection with the father, and stressed his humanity. And in verse 16-17 he was demonstrating because of the false teachers believing that the physical world was evil, and they themselves had thought that God himself could not have created it. Also that if Christ was God, they reasoned, he would be in charge of only the spiritual world. Paul was explaining that all the thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities of both the real world and the physical world were create under Christ himself. Just was a statement that Jesus is God in the form of human and yet he did die and that the deity that is Christ is important because of his human existence among us to show how we should live and his physical real death so we could be with him. 

"The bible says" is still circular reasoning subject to individual interpretation. Your assertion that the context in which Paul speaks somehow means god really did die is baseless as if god did really die all things wouldn't have been held in place by him. The fact that Paul asserts Jesus as God whom all things consist; isn't effected by the context in which it was said as it's an acclaimed fact by Paul. 

It was nor us or God that had Satan come out into the Garden. He himself was jealous of God and his creation Satan (the serpent) was cast out of heaven. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan's reliance on agency and proposed an altered plan that negated agency. Thus he became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven. Because of our free will of which we make choices and you make choices as well. We have the choice to live apart from God or to live with him. 

God as describe in scripture knew Satan would do what he did yet he didn't prevent it. And your excuse does not mean that it is the createds fault for what it is and how it was equipped mentally. In this case Satan doing what god knew it would do and humans being ill-equipped to handle the situation.  Also If Satan had been as intimate with god as your book claims, the most cherished of all angels, casually speaks with him, there is no way a being of such immense cognitive abilities could ever think it could overtake a creator of the magnitude described by the bible. Absolutely illogical. A demand to bend the knee and worship forever or burn in the eternal flame is not a choice, it's coercion from a petulant god to its creation. For the trivial reason of not believing in something that can not be detected in any way by said creation.

just_sayin

@21CenturyIconoclast

2. YOUR LAUGHABLE QUOTE WITH NO CITATATIONS:  "Jesus death at the hands of Pontius Pilate and the disciples claim that Jesus was resurrected are attested to by Roman historians, Jewish historians, and Jesus' enemies."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180728/#Comment_180728

List the historical peer reviewed citations to your perceived knowledge where Roman, Jewish, and Jesus' enemies "eye-witnessed" Jesus' zombie resurrection after his 3-day "tomb nap!"

Tactitus (56-112 AD), Annals- 
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

Tacitus claims Jesus was killed by Pontius Pilate and that the Christians had a 'most mischievous superstition' about him.

Phlegon (80-140 AD) quoted by Origen
“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

The anti-Christian apologist admits that Jesus arose after death, had marks on his hands from the nails that pierced him.

Pliny the Younger (61 - 113 AD)
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Shows that early Christians worshipped Jesus as God and were honest people in their testimony

Seutonius (69 - 140 AD)
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

Shows that the Christians believe in a mischievous religious belief - wonder what that was - its the resurrection.

Lucian of Samasota  (115 - 200 AD)
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

Shows Jesus was crucified, worshipped by Christians who believed he offered them eternal life.

Josephus (37 - 101 AD)
“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This is the neutral reconstruction - not the Christian scribe version)

This shows Jesus did miracles, was a teacher, won many Jews and Greeks, and was crucified by Pilate and that the Christians had not dispersed but still followed him.

The Talmud
“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)

Confirms Jesus was hanged on the day before Passover and that he had magical powers.

You asked about eyewitnesses - there are many who claim to have seen Jesus resurrected Matthew, John, Peter, James, and Jude.  Those who claim to have spoken and interviewed eye witnesses include - John Mark, Clement, Luke, and Paul.  

4. YOUR DUMBFOUNDED QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP:  "The earliest evidence we have of Jesus' death and resurrection is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which is said to be an early Christian creed, no later than 18 months after the resurrection."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180728/#Comment_180728

H-E-L-L-O?  Jesus died, or ascended towards heaven (Acts 1:9), in 33CE, and the book of Corinthians by Paul was written in 54CE, 21 YEARS SUBSEQUENT to Jesus' ascension skyward or his death, and NOT 18 MONTHS like you deceivingly stated!  Why do you remain such an outright regarding your faith? Huh?  Then you wonder why I call you a "pseudo-christian!"  LOL!

H-e-l-l-o - 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is said to be an early Christian Creed that PREDATES the writing of the book of 1 Corinthians, 

1. James Dunn: Dunn, a Professor at Durham, stated that this tradition was formulated as a tradition within months (18 at the most) of Jesus’ death in his book Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003).

2. Michael Goulder: An atheistic New Testament professor, Goulder believed the creed goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion, as mentioned in “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision” in Gavin D’Costa’s Resurrection Reconsidered (Oneworld, 1996).

3. A.J.M. Wedderburn: A Non-Christian New Testament professor at Munich, Wedderburn considered it right to speak of the creed as dating from the ‘earliest times’, most probably in the first half of the 30s, as noted in his book Beyond Resurrection (Hendrickson, 1999).

4. N.T. Wright: The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress, 2003), Wright, a prominent New Testament scholar, argued that the creed was likely formulated within the first two or three years after Easter.

5. Gerd Lüdemann: An atheistic NT professor at Göttingen, Lüdemann dates the elements in the tradition to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus, as mentioned in various sources. You can find his arguments in The Resurrection of Jesus: History, Experience, Theology (Fortress, 1994)

And what did the creed say:

1. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
2. He was buried.
3. He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
4. He appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
5. After that, He appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom were still living, though some had fallen asleep.
6. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

Maybe someone should go study their Bibles, if they did wouldn't have written this:

Okay, therefore in the following passage Jesus says to follow it as well:   JESUS AS GOD SAID: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)

Just_sayin, in the verse above, your serial killer Jesus is promoting the murdering of a parents offspring if they curse them!  Therefore, have you ever had to murder one of you offspring because they cursed you, or do you tell your pseudo-christian friends about this passage literally spoken by your serial killer Jesus, where they are to murder their children that curse them?  YES?  

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that any offense that had the maximum sentence of the death penalty could be reduced down, except murder.  Do you even read the Bible?  It doesn't seem like you ever have.  You sound really foolish.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that any offense that had the maximum sentence of the death penalty could be reduced down, except murder.

Of course any offense in the bible could have the maximum penalty if your elf god arbitrarily singles them out for death because they exist, punishment for not being the Jews who god arbitrarily picked to favor. 

1 Samuel 15:3, where God tells Saul to attack the Amalekites and destroy everything they have, including men, women, infants, oxen, sheep, camels, and donkeys. God also tells Saul to not spare them.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ".

And you still haven't produced 'eye witnesses' to the resurrection. Bible is just circular reasoning. They are eye witnesses cause it says so in the bible, the bible says they're witnesses. Sorry, still don't fly.

MayCaesar

I will just make a point that took me a while to arrive at in my life: that loving someone and caring about them does not oblige the other party to anything. In the "No More Mr Guy" book the author describes the phenomenon of the "nice guy" one of the typical behaviors of whom is doing nice things to women he likes, trying to appear as a selfless gentleman, but in reality expecting the woman to reciprocate in the future - and when she does not reciprocate, he gets frustrated: "How dare she not appreciate what I do for her?"

Unsolicited love is not binding in any way. Someone loving me and doing something for me without me asking them to is not doing me a favor: they are forcing a gift on me that I do not necessarily want to receive. Their actions are not evil, but nor are they noble - in fact, they can be a bit intrusive.

The idea that some guy named Jesus "died for my sins" and I need to appreciate it is screwed up. Have I ever asked a guy from over 2,000 years ago to do anything for me? No. Anyone who tries to guilt-trip me into praising him can go to hell (pun very much intended ).

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

I will just make a point that took me a while to arrive at in my life: that loving someone and caring about them does not oblige the other party to anything. In the "No More Mr Guy" book the author describes the phenomenon of the "nice guy" one of the typical behaviors of whom is doing nice things to women he likes, trying to appear as a selfless gentleman, but in reality expecting the woman to reciprocate in the future - and when she does not reciprocate, he gets frustrated: "How dare she not appreciate what I do for her?"

Unsolicited love is not binding in any way. Someone loving me and doing something for me without me asking them to is not doing me a favor: they are forcing a gift on me that I do not necessarily want to receive. Their actions are not evil, but nor are they noble - in fact, they can be a bit intrusive.

The idea that some guy named Jesus "died for my sins" and I need to appreciate it is screwed up. Have I ever asked a guy from over 2,000 years ago to do anything for me? No. Anyone who tries to guilt-trip me into praising him can go to hell (pun very much intended ).

May, you have free will.  God will not drag you into heaven against your will.  If you choose not to accept his offer of forgiveness, then He will allow you to stand before Him on judgement day on your own merits.  If you don't want God in your life, be assured he will honor your wishes throughout eternity also.  

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

This is called a "covert contract" in the terminology of the book I mentioned: "I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" My conversation with people doing that is short: "Go to hell, God". Man, this phrase is juicy: I will make frequent use of it. Patent it under my name!

Factfinder

@just_sayin

..., you have free will. 

When did anyone freely chose to be created under these circumstances where the options are bend the knee or else?

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

"I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" 

That's the biblical god to a tee.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You possess free will and you have "chosen" poorly. You have been placed in Time as a warrior...you have relented to the enemy.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Elohim gave Himself for your life and your future in eternity...you are a warrior in this cosmic struggle and you and @MayCaesar have chosen the path of a fool.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

You possess free will and you have "chosen" poorly. You have been placed in Time as a warrior...you have relented to the enemy.

When did anyone freely chose to be created under these circumstances where the options are bend the knee or else?

You didn't choose, your god chose you because it created those with low cognitive abilities to be its followers. Otherwise you'd know you didn't choose anymore than I did...

John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you"

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You did not choose to be placed in Time as hundreds of thousands of warriors did not "choose" to be placed in harms way to fight for their County and they too had the option of cowardliness and treason of loyalty to the Nation and people depending upon them. You have chosen the path of the cowardly fool.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You did not choose to be placed in Time as hundreds of thousands of warriors did not "choose" to be placed in harms way to fight for their County and they too had the option of cowardliness and treason of loyalty to the Nation and people depending upon them. You have chosen the path of the cowardly fool.

That's your belief with no evidence. 

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

This is called a "covert contract" in the terminology of the book I mentioned: "I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" My conversation with people doing that is short: "Go to hell, God". Man, this phrase is juicy: I will make frequent use of it. Patent it under my name!

May, if you live a perfect life, then you don't need God's grace or help.  But the reality is that most of us are in need of a lot of grace.  You claim God is manipulating you, but the choice is yours.  You are mad that God will judge you.  But He is the creator and can judge His creation if He wants.  He doesn't owe you a thing.  And you are free to do as you wish.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; The evidence is extant around you, in you, in the Scriptures...with commonsense as the standard...you missed the boat.

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

You Christians are an interesting bunch... Aside from being into extreme BDSM stuff, you also claim to read people's minds. I am not mad at a fictional character, I am just amused at how adults can take this nonsense seriously.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ; Nonsense to you is life to others...we see the World around us...the Heavens, the Moon, the Stars, the Earth and we see the words articulated within the Canon that introduce the Creator of these worlds and we believe...we see the eschatological perfection that is undoubtedly divine...you do not, you cannot, because of your pride and servitude to Satan.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

"I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" 

That's the biblical god to a tee.

I think God's invitation is more like this 'You will be judged for your own behavior.  It won't go well for you if you plead your own case, so I'll offer you an alternative - my son will pay the price for your misconduct.  In return you will need to admit that you are a sinner and that you acknowledge that it is only because of he has done that your debt is paid in full.  The choice is yours."

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

Uh, if I have really committed a transgression, then I should be the one held responsible. Someone else dying 2,000+ years before I was even born in order to redeem my "sins" makes even less sense than someone dying for me now without my approval. What if I jump into a lake and drown myself tomorrow, demanding that 2,000 years from now someone is not penalized for being an arse - what will anyone think of me? Of course, any sane person will think that I am... well, insane.

Was Jesus of Nazareth insane? That is a rhetorical question.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ; Jesus of Nazareth is your Creator, He gave Himself for you so that you can live with Him eternally. Jesus' work at Golgotha was ordained "before Time began" through the Gospel and the purpose of that work was "to destroy the works of the Devil;" this for eschatological purposes. You were chosen before the foundation of the World as a participatory warrior in Elohim's struggle with Satan...you are currently on the road of defilement and hopelessness as you have chosen through your unbelief to ally with Satan. Those who choose by faith to ally with Jesus will live with Him eternally in victory.

 

 

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

Uh, if I have really committed a transgression, then I should be the one held responsible. Someone else dying 2,000+ years before I was even born in order to redeem my "sins" makes even less sense than someone dying for me now without my approval. What if I jump into a lake and drown myself tomorrow, demanding that 2,000 years from now someone is not penalized for being an arse - what will anyone think of me? Of course, any sane person will think that I am... well, insane.

Was Jesus of Nazareth insane? That is a rhetorical question.

May, you owe a debt.  You are correct, it is your debt.  The one to whom you owe the debt is willing to accept a different payment.  The one who provides the payment is willing to do so. Legally, you can refuse the offer and pay it yourself - that's your choice, but it is not illegal for the one to whom you owe the debt to allow someone else to pay it.  

C.S. Lewis once said that Jesus must either be a , a lunatic or Lord.  Either he lied about who he was and his mission, or he was out of his mind, or he was who he claimed to be - Lord.  You are free to think he is a lunatic.  It is interesting that those who knew him best though, did not think he was a lunatic, in fact they choose to die rather than claim he was anything but Lord.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

"I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" 

That's the biblical god to a tee.

I think God's invitation is more like this 'You will be judged for your own behavior.  It won't go well for you if you plead your own case, so I'll offer you an alternative - my son will pay the price for your misconduct.  In return you will need to admit that you are a sinner and that you acknowledge that it is only because of he has done that your debt is paid in full.  The choice is yours."

Well now that doesn't surprise me. But as noted before and you've failed to address intelligently, the point is god didn't invite me to be created to serve him or else, he or it just did that. Then hides and says trust me and not the intellect I purposely gave you while I avoid your detection. Bend the knee or else isn't a choice no matter how much you try and avoid that fact. Especially a self absorbed god who creates evil then punishes it; but only if you don't believe in it. If you believe in god then all is forgiven Hitler, come on in.

Rock

. Factfinder said:

@Rock

Jesus in fact did die. Even in history outside of Christianity marks the death of Jesus. Jesus was the human entity of God. He was physical human that walked on the Earth proven by non Christian historical figures. Publius Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian and senator, wrote about Jesus in his Annals around 115 AD. There are two passages in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus, that are generally considered good evidence. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93–94, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. I know you are not saying the existence of Jesus was false, but these prove. The Bible even states he death of Jesus. 

In Romans 5:8 "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners"

The brief notations of a physical person (body) who was called christ and the alleged claims made on his behalf were just that, brief reference to a cult that had arisen. These types of references in no way at all affirm the claims of the new religion, just that the movement had caused some problems with the ruling authorities of the time. That's why no where do you find elaborate confirmations anything existed out of the ordinary. Just religious uprisings that happened from time to time.  At no time did Tacitus or Josephus endorse a religious claim, especially extraordinary ones, as confirmed factual history. Only that there was claims made by this new sect and many followers seemed to be a result of the claims. There really is no evidence outside of tradition that some individual martyrs actually happened the way they say they did. Using the bible as evidence is circular reasoning, not evidence.

For all of the context Colossians is a book of connections. Of which Paul combatted false teachings that had infiltrated the Colossian church. Paul was stressing the deity of Christ because the church was struggling with syncretism which was combining ideas from Judaism, and Greek philosophies. Just stressing of his connection with the father, and stressed his humanity. And in verse 16-17 he was demonstrating because of the false teachers believing that the physical world was evil, and they themselves had thought that God himself could not have created it. Also that if Christ was God, they reasoned, he would be in charge of only the spiritual world. Paul was explaining that all the thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities of both the real world and the physical world were create under Christ himself. Just was a statement that Jesus is God in the form of human and yet he did die and that the deity that is Christ is important because of his human existence among us to show how we should live and his physical real death so we could be with him. 

"The bible says" is still circular reasoning subject to individual interpretation. Your assertion that the context in which Paul speaks somehow means god really did die is baseless as if god did really die all things wouldn't have been held in place by him. The fact that Paul asserts Jesus as God whom all things consist; isn't effected by the context in which it was said as it's an acclaimed fact by Paul. 

It was nor us or God that had Satan come out into the Garden. He himself was jealous of God and his creation Satan (the serpent) was cast out of heaven. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan's reliance on agency and proposed an altered plan that negated agency. Thus he became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven. Because of our free will of which we make choices and you make choices as well. We have the choice to live apart from God or to live with him. 

God as describe in scripture knew Satan would do what he did yet he didn't prevent it. And your excuse does not mean that it is the createds fault for what it is and how it was equipped mentally. In this case Satan doing what god knew it would do and humans being ill-equipped to handle the situation.  Also If Satan had been as intimate with god as your book claims, the most cherished of all angels, casually speaks with him, there is no way a being of such immense cognitive abilities could ever think it could overtake a creator of the magnitude described by the bible. Absolutely illogical. A demand to bend the knee and worship forever or burn in the eternal flame is not a choice, it's coercion from a petulant god to its creation. For the trivial reason of not believing in something that can not be detected in any way by said creation.

Factfinder said:

@Rock

Jesus in fact did die. Even in history outside of Christianity marks the death of Jesus. Jesus was the human entity of God. He was physical human that walked on the Earth proven by non Christian historical figures. Publius Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian and senator, wrote about Jesus in his Annals around 115 AD. There are two passages in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus, that are generally considered good evidence. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93–94, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. I know you are not saying the existence of Jesus was false, but these prove. The Bible even states he death of Jesus. 

In Romans 5:8 "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners"

The brief notations of a physical person (body) who was called christ and the alleged claims made on his behalf were just that, brief reference to a cult that had arisen. These types of references in no way at all affirm the claims of the new religion, just that the movement had caused some problems with the ruling authorities of the time. That's why no where do you find elaborate confirmations anything existed out of the ordinary. Just religious uprisings that happened from time to time.  At no time did Tacitus or Josephus endorse a religious claim, especially extraordinary ones, as confirmed factual history. Only that there was claims made by this new sect and many followers seemed to be a result of the claims. There really is no evidence outside of tradition that some individual martyrs actually happened the way they say they did. Using the bible as evidence is circular reasoning, not evidence.

For all of the context Colossians is a book of connections. Of which Paul combatted false teachings that had infiltrated the Colossian church. Paul was stressing the deity of Christ because the church was struggling with syncretism which was combining ideas from Judaism, and Greek philosophies. Just stressing of his connection with the father, and stressed his humanity. And in verse 16-17 he was demonstrating because of the false teachers believing that the physical world was evil, and they themselves had thought that God himself could not have created it. Also that if Christ was God, they reasoned, he would be in charge of only the spiritual world. Paul was explaining that all the thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities of both the real world and the physical world were create under Christ himself. Just was a statement that Jesus is God in the form of human and yet he did die and that the deity that is Christ is important because of his human existence among us to show how we should live and his physical real death so we could be with him. 

"The bible says" is still circular reasoning subject to individual interpretation. Your assertion that the context in which Paul speaks somehow means god really did die is baseless as if god did really die all things wouldn't have been held in place by him. The fact that Paul asserts Jesus as God whom all things consist; isn't effected by the context in which it was said as it's an acclaimed fact by Paul. 

It was nor us or God that had Satan come out into the Garden. He himself was jealous of God and his creation Satan (the serpent) was cast out of heaven. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan's reliance on agency and proposed an altered plan that negated agency. Thus he became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven. Because of our free will of which we make choices and you make choices as well. We have the choice to live apart from God or to live with him. 

God as describe in scripture knew Satan would do what he did yet he didn't prevent it. And your excuse does not mean that it is the createds fault for what it is and how it was equipped mentally. In this case Satan doing what god knew it would do and humans being ill-equipped to handle the situation.  Also If Satan had been as intimate with god as your book claims, the most cherished of all angels, casually speaks with him, there is no way a being of such immense cognitive abilities could ever think it could overtake a creator of the magnitude described by the bible. Absolutely illogical. A demand to bend the knee and worship forever or burn in the eternal flame is not a choice, it's coercion from a petulant god to its creation. For the trivial reason of not believing in something that can not be detected in any way by said creation.

Exactly I agree they are non religious claims by people confirming the existence of Jesus. Using the Bible is not circular reasoning itself my friend. The Bible was put together through multiple eye witness testimony's and confirmations of these events happening. Everything we believe in is on faith no matter if you're a Christian or not we all put our faith or belief into something. Where as Christians we put our faith and Jesus and I myself put my faith and Jesus because it has had the most logical conclusion out of all other religion. As in Atheists put their faith into science or their own brain and knowledge. Where as you say using the Bible as circular reasoning. In an atheist worldview there is no design so that sounds like to me that atheists are saying that I can trust my brain because my brain tells me that I can trust it. How can one question that circular worldview without appealing to a brain because even if you are to say that you can demonstrate it or test it with any brain then you are still using that brain. If you believe your brain is by accident, or by chance how can you trust it? If you're seeking for truth but you don't believe in any designer or creator of your brain how can you trust your own brain to find the truth? That is extreme, but it what I am saying with the Bible being true and evidence not being that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is, but I am giving evidence in my other posts on this board of historic mentions of things within the Bible in the Old Testament that verify the truths with in it. Within my reasoning of giving context to a verse you quoted without giving the full context and reading the whole chapter is my reason to break down Colossians for you. The circular reasoning for using the Bible as a reference would only be so if I said because the Bible says that it is true within the Bible because it says it is historically accurate and true then it would be circular reasoning.


God as describe in scripture knew Satan would do what he did yet he didn't prevent it. And your excuse does not mean that it is the createds fault for what it is and how it was equipped mentally. In this case Satan doing what god knew it would do and humans being ill-equipped to handle the situation.  Also If Satan had been as intimate with god as your book claims, the most cherished of all angels, casually speaks with him, there is no way a being of such immense cognitive abilities could ever think it could overtake a creator of the magnitude described by the bible. Absolutely illogical. A demand to bend the knee and worship forever or burn in the eternal flame is not a choice, it's coercion from a petulant god to its creation. For the trivial reason of not believing in something that can not be detected in any way by said creation.

Simple answer God allowed for these things to happen to show his glory and to make truth of God known. It is no that God delights evil but hates it. The fall was ultimately the plan behind the divine son (Jesus). God himself is over Satan and he was not taken over by Satan because in the end Satan loses and he knows that he is going to lose this battle that he tries taking all he can down with him. The Bible also makes that is clear that it is a choice to choose God or to not choose him. My friend I think this is where I step back and end this conversation because I don't see this conversation going anywhere other than constant back and forth. I appreciate your insight and I appreciate the conversation we have had. We definitely can have more future conversations on other topics, but my friend Jesus does love you and I do too. 
 @Factfinder

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Jesus was most likely insane many in his time agreed including his own mother.

Much has been written about the sanity of Jesus , he seems to have been a charismatic lunatic.

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself". And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons".

— Mark 3:21–22, RSV[10]

The accusation contained in the Gospel of John is more literal:

There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?"

— John 10:19–20, RSV

maxx

Again,  ill get back to you when i have time, however where do you get the idea paul was converted to Christianity? Also i would like to see your references on those who spoke of jesus outsideof the bible for i have looked before.  I think one had two sentences.  Also, do you realize how common the name Jesus,  or joesph,  as the actual derivative is, was back then? Every tom and Harry was called jesus.  let us assume the idea that he existed; it still in no way means he was the son of god, it just means there was an individual named jesus who was executed as a criminal. Jesus name in hebrew is yeshua which the common english translation is joesph. Who Founded Christianity? Some Say Jesus; Some Say Paul. What If Neither Did? The Answer Will Surprise You | HuffPost Religion       Ten Reasons Why the Bible’s Story of the Exodus is Not True | by Tim Zeak | ExCommunications | Medium    @just_sayin

Joeseph

@Rock


You've said........


The cause of cancer is not God or his doing at all. All suffering and evil was unleashed when in Genesis Adam and Eve disobeyed and sinned against God.

But you never answered who unleashed suffering?

Great point that baby with cancer did nothing, but my friend babies did not get cancer because of an annoyance of them disobeying him. Say for example that a 16-year-old kid is driving and slides on black ice and dies.

But you just said their suffering was over Adam and Eve disobeying god?  How is the cause of cancer not god's doing ?

We cannot have a conversation and proceed if you're not going to answer what I'm asking , you're just attempting to avoid the issue , so can you address what I've actually asked before we address the other issues?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

"I have nothing but love for you, but if you do not reciprocate my love, I will inflict terrible pain on you!" 

That's the biblical god to a tee.

I think God's invitation is more like this 'You will be judged for your own behavior.  It won't go well for you if you plead your own case, so I'll offer you an alternative - my son will pay the price for your misconduct.  In return you will need to admit that you are a sinner and that you acknowledge that it is only because of he has done that your debt is paid in full.  The choice is yours."

Well now that doesn't surprise me. But as noted before and you've failed to address intelligently, the point is god didn't invite me to be created to serve him or else, he or it just did that. Then hides and says trust me and not the intellect I purposely gave you while I avoid your detection. Bend the knee or else isn't a choice no matter how much you try and avoid that fact. Especially a self absorbed god who creates evil then punishes it; but only if you don't believe in it. If you believe in god then all is forgiven Hitler, come on in.

Wow, there it is again.  You are blaming God for making you.  You are right you didn't ask to be made.  You are the created, not the creator.  But God is not unjust for holding you accountable for your behaviors is He?  You didn't ask to be born in the US, but you were.  And if you commit a crime in the US, is it unjust for a US court to hold you accountable for your actions?  No, it is not.  Your argument would be laughed at.  As the Bible says:

For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

Again, you aren't punished for not 'bending the knee', you are punished for your own behavior.  If you live a perfect life, you don't need God's grace and forgiveness.  Christians believe that infants and those without the mental capacity to understand right and wrong will go to heaven when they die - and they did not bend the knee.  So in reality, you are mad that God is offering you an alternative to the punishment you deserve for your actions, rather than recognizing it was your actions that were the problem to begin with.  That's messed up.  A lot of misdirected rage at God there.  

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

May, you owe a debt.  You are correct, it is your debt.  The one to whom you owe the debt is willing to accept a different payment.  The one who provides the payment is willing to do so. Legally, you can refuse the offer and pay it yourself - that's your choice, but it is not illegal for the one to whom you owe the debt to allow someone else to pay it.  

C.S. Lewis once said that Jesus must either be a , a lunatic or Lord.  Either he lied about who he was and his mission, or he was out of his mind, or he was who he claimed to be - Lord.  You are free to think he is a lunatic.  It is interesting that those who knew him best though, did not think he was a lunatic, in fact they choose to die rather than claim he was anything but Lord.  

Do I? Could you show me the loan contract I signed? I specifically would want to know the temporal aspect of it: how I managed to sign a contract over 2,000 years before the spermatozoid that led to my conception appeared in this Universe.

It is also a bit weird to compare a monetary debt to a vice. Do you think that taking a loan is sinful?

I actually do not think that the real Jesus of Nazareth was a lunatic. But I am also not one claiming that he died for people separated from him by 100 generations, so...