What should have been for which that is absent!

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

There's just nothing to add to that. If ricky had any integrity he would back away and reevaluate his, motives and position. Even if it's only on some levels.

just_sayin

@ZeusAres42
Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:

Indeed, poor men have become owners of wealth, and he who could not make sandals for himself is now a possessor of riches.
Indeed, men’s slaves, their hearts are sad, and magistrates do not fraternize with their people when they shout.
Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.
Indeed, many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a sepulcher and the place of embalmment has become a stream.
Indeed, noblemen are in distress, while the poor man is full of joy. Every town says: “Let us suppress the powerful among us.”
Indeed, men are like ibises. Squalor is throughout the land, and there are none indeed whose clothes are white in these times.

Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.

2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.

3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt

4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children

5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.

6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time

7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt

8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine

9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements

10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.

11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.

12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official. Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.

13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account

14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.

15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department. The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.

It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.

Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@ZeusAres42
Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:

Indeed, poor men have become owners of wealth, and he who could not make sandals for himself is now a possessor of riches.
Indeed, men’s slaves, their hearts are sad, and magistrates do not fraternize with their people when they shout.
Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.
Indeed, many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a sepulcher and the place of embalmment has become a stream.
Indeed, noblemen are in distress, while the poor man is full of joy. Every town says: “Let us suppress the powerful among us.”
Indeed, men are like ibises. Squalor is throughout the land, and there are none indeed whose clothes are white in these times.
Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.
2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.
3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children
5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.
6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt
8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine
9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements
10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.
11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.
12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official.  Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.
13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account
14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.
15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department.  The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.
It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.
Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.

@just_sayin

Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies

Prove that false allegation. At no place or time on this web site have I seen any such concession by @ZeusAres42.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

Well, out of the two of them I thought @just_sayin would have that integrity. Guess I was wrong about him. Shame. But as the often is said you can't reason with a person that has abandonded reason. And that is the case here.

And as also as MayCaesar said, there comes a time when you cannot logically defend this faith here without resorting to making a whole load of bullsh!t up which is definitely the case with these two. They have no clue what they are talking about. And so they resort to just lying about stuff and something think that this makes them sound clever. Beggers belief.

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

And they never saw it coming!

ZeusAres42

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

@ZeusAres42
Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:

Indeed, poor men have become owners of wealth, and he who could not make sandals for himself is now a possessor of riches.
Indeed, men’s slaves, their hearts are sad, and magistrates do not fraternize with their people when they shout.
Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.
Indeed, many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a sepulcher and the place of embalmment has become a stream.
Indeed, noblemen are in distress, while the poor man is full of joy. Every town says: “Let us suppress the powerful among us.”
Indeed, men are like ibises. Squalor is throughout the land, and there are none indeed whose clothes are white in these times.
Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.
2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.
3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children
5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.
6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt
8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine
9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements
10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.
11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.
12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official.  Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.
13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account
14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.
15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department.  The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.
It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.
Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.

@just_sayin

Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies

Prove that false allegation. At no place or time on this web site have I seen any such concession by @ZeusAres42.

Exactly, he is now just outright lying. But that is what an ametuer does when all else fails; they make stuff up. The biblical sholars and apologists I mentioned do have some stuff of value and interesting at least to say. These two don't. They don't even realize how incometent they are it beggers belief. They don't even realize that what they are doing is actually a disrvice to something that other people who spent their whole lives studying. Definetley mount stup!d of the dunning kruger effect here is them. @just_sayin you are not William Lane Craig. You are not a good defender of this faith. You are at best a try hard. Do not give up your day job.

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

Didn't know whether to give you the fist pump or the funny, but rest assured you deserved both.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

I gotta go to sleep but as you know every single thing that pseudo intellect @just_saying just listed does not constitute as suffiencet evidence and I will show later. Unless you beat me to it.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@ZeusAres42
Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:

Indeed, poor men have become owners of wealth, and he who could not make sandals for himself is now a possessor of riches.
Indeed, men’s slaves, their hearts are sad, and magistrates do not fraternize with their people when they shout.
Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.
Indeed, many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a sepulcher and the place of embalmment has become a stream.
Indeed, noblemen are in distress, while the poor man is full of joy. Every town says: “Let us suppress the powerful among us.”
Indeed, men are like ibises. Squalor is throughout the land, and there are none indeed whose clothes are white in these times.
Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.
2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.
3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children
5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.
6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt
8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine
9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements
10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.
11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.
12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official.  Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.
13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account
14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.
15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department.  The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.
It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.
Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.

So evidence of Jericho exist, Asians were in Egypt; but there is no archeological evidence of Jewish settlements in the desert, correct? Just hearsay? Sorry, doesn't work in the real world.

Many other scholars reject this view, and instead see the biblical exodus traditions as the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis

Though scholars generally do not recognize the biblical portrayal of the Exodus as an actual historical event,[98] various historical pharaohs have been proposed as the corresponding ruler at the time the story takes place, with Ramesses II as the most popular candidate for Pharaoh of the Exodus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II

Sorry you lose.

just_sayin

@Factfinder

For laughs and giggles, could you tell me what enemy of Egypt went into Egypt and
1) Turned the river to blood
2) Caused pestilence
3) Destroyed the trees and caused them to fall
4) Destroyed the grain
5) Caused many to drown
6) Made former slaves rich
7) killed the children of small and great alike

The song of Lament, Ipuwer Papyrus, certainly fits the 10 plagues of Egypt

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/n2/eecbtib31qgo.png

Jericho - yep they found the fallen walls in the 1950's, From Deseret News:

The walls of Jericho did come tumbling down as recounted in the Bible, according to an archaeological study.
"When we compare the archaeological evidence at Jericho with the biblical narrative describing the Israelite destruction of Jericho, we find remarkable agreement," said archaeologist Byrant G. Wood of the University of Toronto.After studying data from recently published excavation reports of British archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon, Wood wrote in the March-April issue of the scholarly journal, Biblical Archaeology Review:
"Here is impressive evidence that the walls of Jericho did indeed topple as the Bible records."
Kenyon had concluded after her excavations in the 1950s that the fortified city was destroyed about 1550 B.C. and was no longer there at the time of the Israelite invasion dated after 1400 B.C.
As a result, for about 30 years, "scholars by and large have written off the biblical record as so much folklore and religious rhetoric," Wood said.
However, he said extensive ceramic remnants and a carbon-14 sample contradict Kenyon's dating of the city's fall, and other evidence converged to support the biblical account.
"The correlation between the archaeological evidence and the biblical narrative is substantial," he said.
As described in Joshua 6, Joshua's army marched around the city for a week, blowing rams' horns, and on the seventh day, combined shouting with the piercing horns, "and the wall fell down flat."
Wood noted that collapsed mud bricks were found outside a thick lower revetment wall where they had fallen, and apparently served as a ramp for the Israelites, described as going "up" into the city.
Also, the Bible relates the event occurred after spring harvest, and that the Israelites burned the city - both factors confirmed by the archeological remains, Wood said.
He said the siege of the city obviously was short as indicated by the large amounts of scorched grain found.
"The presence of these grain stores in the destroyed city is entirely consistent with the biblical account," Wood wrote. "The city did not fall as a result of a starvation siege, as was so common in ancient times.

ZeusAres42

just_sayin said:

@ZeusAres42
Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:

Indeed, poor men have become owners of wealth, and he who could not make sandals for himself is now a possessor of riches.
Indeed, men’s slaves, their hearts are sad, and magistrates do not fraternize with their people when they shout.
Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.
Indeed, many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a sepulcher and the place of embalmment has become a stream.
Indeed, noblemen are in distress, while the poor man is full of joy. Every town says: “Let us suppress the powerful among us.”
Indeed, men are like ibises. Squalor is throughout the land, and there are none indeed whose clothes are white in these times.
Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.
2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.
3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children
5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.
6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt
8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine
9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements
10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.
11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.
12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official.  Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.
13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account
14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.
15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department.  The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.
It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.
Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.

1) The Ipuwer Papyrus

Critical Analysis: The Ipuwer Papyrus, an Egyptian poem, does describe chaos and suffering that superficially resemble the biblical plagues. However, scholars generally view it as a literary work lamenting societal collapse rather than a direct account of the events described in Exodus. Its dating also poses challenges for direct correlation with the biblical timeline.

2) The Amarna Letters and Hyksos

Context: The Amarna letters refer to diplomatic correspondence between Egyptian rulers and neighboring regions, including mentions of groups like the Habiru, not specifically the Hyksos. The Hyksos were a foreign Semitic dynasty that ruled parts of Egypt prior to the period traditionally associated with the Exodus. Their association with the Israelites is speculative and not widely supported in scholarship.

3) Asiatic People Enslaved in Egypt

Broader Interpretation: While evidence exists that people from various regions, including Asia, were enslaved in Egypt, this was not exclusive to any single group. The presence of Semitic people in Egypt does not directly corroborate the biblical Exodus narrative.

4) Skeletons of Infants

Archaeological Caution: Discoveries of infant burials under homes can reflect ancient burial practices and do not necessarily indicate mass infanticide related to the Exodus story. Such findings require careful interpretation within broader archaeological and historical contexts.

5) Abandonment of Kahun

Alternative Explanations: The hasty abandonment of settlements like Kahun can be attributed to multiple factors, including economic decline, political upheaval, or environmental changes. Directly linking such events to the Exodus requires more definitive evidence.

6) The Merneptah Stele

Significance: The Merneptah Stele does mention "Israel" in a victory inscription, indicating the presence of a group or entity named Israel in Canaan by the late 13th century BCE. However, this inscription does not provide details on the origins or movements of this group.

7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris

Archaeological Interpretation: The discovery of Canaanite-style homes in Egypt, including the one at Avaris, shows cultural and trade connections between Egypt and Canaan. These findings do not necessarily support the specific narratives of biblical patriarchs.

8-15) Various Artifacts and Cultural References

General Observations: Artifacts, inscriptions, and cultural references that align with Semitic presence in Egypt and the broader region are important for understanding ancient interactions. However, the interpretation of these findings in direct support of the Exodus as described in the Bible is debated among scholars. Many of the connections made between archaeological findings and biblical narratives involve significant interpretation and assumptions.

Scholarly Consensus and Challenges

The scholarly consensus on the Exodus is that while there may have been migrations and interactions between Semitic peoples and Egypt, the narrative as presented in the Bible is not directly corroborated by archaeological evidence in the manner described. Scholars emphasize the complex nature of interpreting ancient texts and artifacts, cautioning against reading them as straightforward historical accounts. The Exodus story, like many biblical narratives, holds profound religious and cultural significance, embodying themes of oppression, liberation, and identity that resonate beyond their historical specificity.

In sum, while the evidence cited raises interesting points of discussion, it does not conclusively support the Exodus narrative as historically accurate in the manner described in the Bible. Scholarly investigation into the historical Exodus continues, employing a multidisciplinary approach that includes archaeology, Egyptology, biblical studies, and cultural anthropology to build a nuanced understanding of the past.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?

@RickeHoltsClaw, @just_sayin ;

Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?

@RickeHoltsClaw, @just_sayin ;

Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.

@ZeusAres @Factfinder ; Atheists are NOT adults...they're spoiled children in need of a spanking and discipline.

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/nc/bnjxh4u27saw.jpg

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?

In other words after you yell and scream insults at people, spam the board with religious nonsense; you don't want to be treated like you treat others? You don't want people to posts facts and truisms that debunk your childish claims? Sorry ricky, you lose again. You will face reality one day.

ZeusAres42

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Shush. Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?

In other words after you yell and scream insults at people, spam the board with religious nonsense; you don't want to be treated like you treat others? You don't want people to posts facts and truisms that debunk your childish claims? Sorry ricky, you lose again. You will face reality one day.

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; I don't care how you treat me in your idiocy of atheism...I consider the source.

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/oj/ftaz2if6qfd7.jpg

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Shush. Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.

@ZeusAres42...Atheists are not adults...they're spoiled children void discipline.

ZeusAres42

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Go back to the kids table. The adults are talking. Every time you say something childish like this you are instructed to go to the kids table.

MayCaesar

I will be completely honest... Every single time I tried taking religion seriously and respect people's religious beliefs, 1) I had to engage in serious intellectual dishonesty, tolerating nonsense that I otherwise do not in life, and 2) the people thoroughly disappointed me in the end. The few cases where I had great discussions about religion with religious people, they were very much unlike most of their religious peers, their employment of religion was more philosophical than literal, and I could not shake that feeling that they were engaged in some intentional semi-conscious roleplay.

I have come to rebound to my earlier position, one that I had when I was in my mid-teens, terribly critical of all traditions and societal trends: religion is just a bunch of childish fantasies. Anyone who takes religious stories seriously and literally and who is above the age of 5-6 has had some screwed up intellectual development, whether it be a result of brutal social conditioning, or some serious failures in the personal philosophical search.

I do not know how it is possible to think that events described in an old fantasy book are true. This is just completely idiotic, frankly.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

I will be completely honest... Every single time I tried taking religion seriously and respect people's religious beliefs, 1) I had to engage in serious intellectual dishonesty, tolerating nonsense that I otherwise do not in life, and 2) the people thoroughly disappointed me in the end. The few cases where I had great discussions about religion with religious people, they were very much unlike most of their religious peers, their employment of religion was more philosophical than literal, and I could not shake that feeling that they were engaged in some intentional semi-conscious roleplay.

I have come to rebound to my earlier position, one that I had when I was in my mid-teens, terribly critical of all traditions and societal trends: religion is just a bunch of childish fantasies. Anyone who takes religious stories seriously and literally and who is above the age of 5-6 has had some screwed up intellectual development, whether it be a result of brutal social conditioning, or some serious failures in the personal philosophical search.

I do not know how it is possible to think that events described in an old fantasy book are true. This is just completely idiotic, frankly.

Perhaps it's your perspective that's in error. When one is brought up under circumstances its incumbent upon them to acknowledge god in the very least as a creator, from birth to adulthood, it's quite hard to buck the system. I suspect you did not grow up in a culture that printed "in god we trust" on their money nor did you have to place your right hand on the christian bible when testifying in court. It's not about "screwed up" development but about an indoctrinated one. Intellectually one can overcome it though just as you have the ideology you were indoctrinated with.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

I'm currently researching the history of religions. It's interesting to see how similar the ancient greeks, Egyptian, Persians all genuinely believed in stuff that isn't really that much different than modern day religions.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I have not said anything though that diverges from what you said here. It seems self-evident that one's religiosity is a produce of their environment: no one suddenly comes on their own to believe that an old fantasy book describes the reality. That does not change the predicament I find myself in: whenever I try to respect their opinion, I get burned, and I feel ugly inside for making a compromise that I do not make in any other situation. I would not be telling, say, someone who worships Hitler, "I see, we just have different opinions". And I think that worshiping a god that allegedly killed the entire human population except for one small family once is 1) far more wicked than worshiping Hitler, and 2) makes less sense as that event has never even happened. However you spin it, these are just horrible systems of beliefs based on a ridiculous epistemology. I am not sure what use there is in respecting that.

Anyone is free to have any opinion, but they are not free from their opinion being judged by others. I will not actively interfere in someone's life and tell them that their beliefs are wrong - but if they want to discuss their beliefs with me, they better be ready to hear some damning criticism. I expect the same of others: if I become tilted and start believing in some fantasy nonsense, I want them to tell me that. There are things that are much more obvious to an independent observer than to the subject of those things.

Lastly, I do not see how something being popular or widely accepted changes things. Imagine if tomorrow you learn that, say, in Thailand almost everyone believes in levitating heads of dead widows that prey on children at night: would you not be bewildered? I, as an independent observer, am equally bewildered by the idea that the Earth was created in 7 days by "god": I have this nice ability to look at a claim as if I had never heard it before, and when I look at religious claims from this perspective, they look completely ridiculous me.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

One has to wonder that without Zoroastrianism that there might not have beem Judaism, Christianity or islam.

Factfinder

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

I'm currently researching the history of religions. It's interesting to see how similar the ancient greeks, Egyptian, Persians all genuinely believed in stuff that isn't really that much different than modern day religions.

Exactly. As I Began to question my beliefs I noticed that as well. I mean how many mental gymnastics can one go through? Environment is everything it seems. Horus was an Egyptian god before Jesus hit the seen. https://www.timelessmyths.com/religion/similarities-between-horus-and-jesus/ The hard facts are the story of jesus just isn't unique...

https://www.timelessmyths.com/religion/similarities-between-horus-and-jesus/

Some sources say that Horus had 12 disciples as well, performed miracles, healed sick people, exorcised people from demons, and raised people from the dead. However, Jesus of Nazareth brought Lazarus back to life, when Horus did the same thing to a person named El-Azur-Us. They also both walked on water and did a sermon on a mount.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That does not change the predicament I find myself in: whenever I try to respect their opinion, I get burned, and I feel ugly inside for making a compromise that I do not make in any other situation.

I get that. This is why and it is harsh, they do not care what your opinion is. They are like the Borg on star trex the next generation. Their only goal is to assimilate you into their faith. And they have a strong foothold in this country.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I am not sure they do. At the very least, I have never felt any pressure from them to take religion more seriously. Sure, there will be an odd preacher every now and then who will try to get under your skin - but, by and large, if you do not disturb the hornet's nest, even in the US you will barely hear about them. As I said before, the only time I ever think about religion is when I come here and see endless threads about religion. It simply does not enter my life in any way. And my experience with Baptist churches has been very positive and they never tried converting me into anything.

That is why I always find myself trying to keep the door open and closed at the same time. On one hand, many religious people are amazing. On the other hand, many amazing people are religious. And these two facts make me feel the opposite ways.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

@Factfinder

I am not sure they do. At the very least, I have never felt any pressure from them to take religion more seriously. Sure, there will be an odd preacher every now and then who will try to get under your skin - but, by and large, if you do not disturb the hornet's nest, even in the US you will barely hear about them. As I said before, the only time I ever think about religion is when I come here and see endless threads about religion. It simply does not enter my life in any way. And my experience with Baptist churches has been very positive and they never tried converting me into anything.

That is why I always find myself trying to keep the door open and closed at the same time. On one hand, many religious people are amazing. On the other hand, many amazing people are religious. And these two facts make me feel the opposite ways.

Believe me, as a former Baptist I know they did want to convert you. I've no idea what your experiences with baptist churches are but if you attended services they most definitely tried to convert. Maybe not indirectly, but rest assured they did. Your background may have played a role in rejecting it without even thinking about it, but they did try. No doubt they tried to 'plant seeds' in your presence.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

Could be that I just do not look like someone who is likely to become religious.

My understanding is that religious zealots typically prey after people who have serious issues in life and who are desperate to join some community that will care for them. But I am a very happy guy, and I like messing with people friendlily and spreading good vibes. Definitely not someone these folks are after.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:

"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:

Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

@Factfinder

Could be that I just do not look like someone who is likely to become religious. My understanding is that religious zealots typically prey after people who have serious issues in life and who are desperate to join some community that will care for them. But I am a very happy guy, and I like messing with people friendlily and spreading good vibes. Definitely not someone these folks are after.

Generally it's not you per say. At least I wouldn't think so. At this point and time religion in this country doesn't proselytize as aggressively as they once did in person. I don't even see as much Jehovah witnesses as I once did. It's become more subtle. If they invite you to church it's to convert, that is their goal. Though the secondary reason can be for friendship purposes. The only place really where proselytizing remains aggressive is electronically or by the preaching itself though that has tamed down some as well. And yes of course if they help a down and out person there's greater potential for a somewhat captive audience due to the gratefulness of the person helped. Then of course once they get back on their feet who will they begin paying tithes to? Right, it's a con on every level.

Factfinder

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:

"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:
Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."

In all honesty the similarities between Horus and Jesus have been exaggerated. I don't really understand why except possibly there could be something to what Just_sayin and ricky say about having 'faith' in the idea the god of the bible doesn't exist. Maybe on some level super aggressive atheists have some vested interest in disproving/disbelieving in god? Don't know just something to think about.

That said I still believe zoroastrianism accounts for much of todays religious dogma. For instance the similarities between jesus and horus may not be the knockout punch that would totally discredit christianity, but then again it's not on us to do so. We do not make the assertions, they do. Proving the negative is never the standard. Proving the positive is what generates knowledge of value.

Back to horus. This myth is from 5000 years ago. He was the son of 'another god', so not 'god'. His mother was the goddess isis, not mary. Osiris, god of the underworld was his father, the 'other' god. That's significant because osiris also holds the title 'King of the Resurrection'. Horus is said to have never actually died however. It is said isis hid in the marshes around the nile river till horus became of age where as jesus left at age 12 and came back at 30. So to me it's pretty clear zoroastrianism most likely had a role in the forming of Christianity albeit it Judaism (about a little more of 1000 yrs later) role was weightier. If you want to read more about horus I found this article pretty interesting... https://www.britannica.com/topic/Isis-Egyptian-goddess

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

Generally it's not you per say. At least I wouldn't think so. At this point and time religion in this country doesn't proselytize as aggressively as they once did in person. I don't even see as much Jehovah witnesses as I once did. It's become more subtle. If they invite you to church it's to convert, that is their goal. Though the secondary reason can be for friendship purposes. The only place really where proselytizing remains aggressive is electronically or by the preaching itself though that has tamed down some as well. And yes of course if they help a down and out person there's greater potential for a somewhat captive audience due to the gratefulness of the person helped. Then of course once they get back on their feet who will they begin paying tithes to? Right, it's a con on every level.

I tend to have a more optimistic outlook: I think that people who spend some time in subpar states of mind (such as the one required for operating on religious faith) still spend large amounts of time in better ones. So even the most fanatical Jenovah witness or a Mormon preacher will have those times when they think like a normal person. And it is possible that I trigger those states of mind in people: in person it is very rare for me to hear someone preach to me, and even the most religious people generally just treated me like old buddies. I used to frequent that Baptist church in Virginia, back when I was in the US on a student exchange program, dead broke - I went there mostly for free Internet and snacks, but also to hang out with Americans (my English left a lot to be desired and I desperately needed practice). The two volunteers there were amazing souls and never talked to me about religion. They could easily be my best friends under different circumstances.

I am sure even Rickey can be a pleasure to be around, perhaps when he hangs out with his family. It is hard to imagine given what a maniac he comes across as around here, but it is very much possible that were either of us run into him in a more casual setting, we would not even guess that he can be an annoying prick.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

All could be very true but it doesn't change the goal to grow when discussing a religious body of people. It's very much like a business, if it doesn't grow, it dies. It doesn't mean they can't be sincere in other areas of life. I honestly couldn't tell you why no one seems to want to talk religion to you personally, but in general the religious would like to. There is a strong undercurrent of nominal christians in this country, but frankly if you're talking about say church officials, it blows my mind they wouldn't try to talk to you.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I think they value their time and effort and do not want to waste them on someone who clearly is not interested in even entertaining taking their religion seriously. It is not necessarily something I say or do that makes it obvious to them that that is the case - rather, I think, it is the general way I carry myself. I make fun of everyone and everything, including myself, and their religion being made fun of is something these people are mortally afraid of. I had a conversation with someone about that who pointed out that one of the defining features of all religions is absolute unacceptability of humor: any jabs, even friendly ones, at religion are considered acts of sacrilege. These people would rather have someone yell curses at the god - at least that is something they know how to respond to with dignity - than someone compare their god to noodle soup.

So when I show up at a church after working all day on the beach (those were the days...) and say, "I must look like a sandworm right now. You don't get many visitors like this here, do you?", they probably decide not to disturb the hornets' nest and just let me joke about mundane things. And I respect their preference: I, after all, am a guest in their house. If they do not bother me with their preaching, then I will not bother them with jokes that offend them.

That works the other way around too: they are great people when they allow themselves to let loose and just have a good time. It is when they grow super-serious and start talking about "god's plan" and the "afterlife" that they become intolerable.

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

Factfinder said:

Generally it's not you per say. At least I wouldn't think so. At this point and time religion in this country doesn't proselytize as aggressively as they once did in person. I don't even see as much Jehovah witnesses as I once did. It's become more subtle. If they invite you to church it's to convert, that is their goal. Though the secondary reason can be for friendship purposes. The only place really where proselytizing remains aggressive is electronically or by the preaching itself though that has tamed down some as well. And yes of course if they help a down and out person there's greater potential for a somewhat captive audience due to the gratefulness of the person helped. Then of course once they get back on their feet who will they begin paying tithes to? Right, it's a con on every level.

I tend to have a more optimistic outlook: I think that people who spend some time in subpar states of mind (such as the one required for operating on religious faith) still spend large amounts of time in better ones. So even the most fanatical Jenovah witness or a Mormon preacher will have those times when they think like a normal person. And it is possible that I trigger those states of mind in people: in person it is very rare for me to hear someone preach to me, and even the most religious people generally just treated me like old buddies. I used to frequent that Baptist church in Virginia, back when I was in the US on a student exchange program, dead broke - I went there mostly for free Internet and snacks, but also to hang out with Americans (my English left a lot to be desired and I desperately needed practice). The two volunteers there were amazing souls and never talked to me about religion. They could easily be my best friends under different circumstances.

I am sure even Rickey can be a pleasure to be around, perhaps when he hangs out with his family. It is hard to imagine given what a maniac he comes across as around here, but it is very much possible that were either of us run into him in a more casual setting, we would not even guess that he can be an annoying prick.

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Ah, don't you just feel the christian love. @MayCaesar? Ricky, I'll say one thing for you; you represent all the bigotry, hate, condoned violence, and valid reasons to oppose your elf goddess even if there was a smidgit of evidence it existed. Spend eternity with that evil thing and you or hell, I'd choose hell every time. But since it's all childish fantasy we don't have to worry. But you do. Your elf book doesn't like subjects that aren't loving or smart enough to keep followers. You cause people to reject your elf god and that makes it mad. You're going to hell. And no it's not talking about little kids only; as you know for a fact your god considers all of us his children. So no hiding behind that. Don't you wish god gave you a brain?

Mark 9:42: Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Ah, don't you just feel the christian love. @MayCaesar? Ricky, I'll say one thing for you; you represent all the bigotry, hate, condoned violence, and valid reasons to oppose your elf goddess even if there was a smidgit of evidence it existed. Spend eternity with that evil thing and you or hell, I'd choose hell every time. But since it's all childish fantasy we don't have to worry. But you do. Your elf book doesn't like subjects that aren't loving or smart enough to keep followers. You cause people to reject your elf god and that makes it mad. You're going to hell. And no it's not talking about little kids only; as you know for a fact your god considers all of us his children. So no hiding behind that. Don't you wish god gave you a brain?

Mark 9:42: Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; I feel NO LOVE toward you whatsoever. I'm glad I'm everything you love to hate...right back at YA! You rejected my Lord long before I entered this forum...you have done nothing but blaspheme Him and insult Him in your stupidity and arrogance...Hell is most fitting for you. You are NOT my Lord's child...you are a , arrogant, self-deceived, useless, atheist...this is YOUR doing and your choice...both of YOU!

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/o1/cxn335ja8jdy.jpg

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Ah, don't you just feel the christian love. @MayCaesar? Ricky, I'll say one thing for you; you represent all the bigotry, hate, condoned violence, and valid reasons to oppose your elf goddess even if there was a smidgit of evidence it existed. Spend eternity with that evil thing and you or hell, I'd choose hell every time. But since it's all childish fantasy we don't have to worry. But you do. Your elf book doesn't like subjects that aren't loving or smart enough to keep followers. You cause people to reject your elf god and that makes it mad. You're going to hell. And no it's not talking about little kids only; as you know for a fact your god considers all of us his children. So no hiding behind that. Don't you wish god gave you a brain?

Mark 9:42: Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; I feel NO LOVE toward you whatsoever. I'm glad I'm everything you love to hate...right back at YA! You rejected my Lord long before I entered this forum...you have done nothing but blaspheme Him and insult Him in your stupidity and arrogance...Hell is most fitting for you. You are NOT my Lord's child...you are a , arrogant, self-deceived, useless, atheist...this is YOUR doing and your choice...both of YOU!

I don't hate you. Why would you assume I hate you just because you hate me. Look this is the truth and it strikes a nerve right to your core whether you admit it or not. When you proselytize you become insulted when people don't believe you or your god. You in turn become insecure and feel the need to lash out. That's when I insult back. Probably shouldn't but I'm kind of immature that way. But ricky, you know this isn't condoned by your god, the bible or any spiritual authority. What attracts you here is how atheists are unaffected by the threat of an afterlife of hell for not bowing down to what you believe is the most important thing in your life. You feel as though the words of scripture should transform others the way you believe they did you. And they don't.

You see? When you believed, you believed, you were not convinced by compelling arguments, you just believed as you read the bible. It wasn't an active choice to believe, you just did. Probably had a euphoric experience as you read and believed? That's because you were open to the concepts the bible talks about generally because it was expected in your upbringing to believe in god. No one around you gave you cause to be skeptical of the idea, so you weren't. Now you're here where people do give cause to be skeptical and that is an affront to your sense of established faith. It doesn't mean we spread hate, does it have to mean you will?

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

I will be completely honest... Every single time I tried taking religion seriously and respect people's religious beliefs, 1) I had to engage in serious intellectual dishonesty, tolerating nonsense that I otherwise do not in life, and 2) the people thoroughly disappointed me in the end. The few cases where I had great discussions about religion with religious people, they were very much unlike most of their religious peers, their employment of religion was more philosophical than literal, and I could not shake that feeling that they were engaged in some intentional semi-conscious roleplay.

I have come to rebound to my earlier position, one that I had when I was in my mid-teens, terribly critical of all traditions and societal trends: religion is just a bunch of childish fantasies. Anyone who takes religious stories seriously and literally and who is above the age of 5-6 has had some screwed up intellectual development, whether it be a result of brutal social conditioning, or some serious failures in the personal philosophical search.

I do not know how it is possible to think that events described in an old fantasy book are true. This is just completely idiotic, frankly.

I can understand your frustration, especially when one or more people try to shove endless religious nonsense down your throat. However, I cannot entirely agree with this or the other assertions you have made about Santa Claus in the past being the same as a belief in God. And I will explain why. First, I see nothing wrong with your first paragraph and can resonate with it.

Moreover, regarding the latter bits, most children of this age are not interested in this kind of stuff and are probably far more interested in the next game they're going to play on their console, or something else. Children at this age are still developing intellectually; this kind of development doesn't end at the prepubescent age.

Furthermore, the idea that belief in God is akin to some childish fantasy or like the belief in Santa is a false equivalence and kind of a blanket assertion. If we just take Santa for example, while he and God might share some very similar traits, there is one huge difference: falsifiability. We can know that Santa doesn't deliver presents to all the kids in the world at the speed of light on one particular day of the year. We can know that Santa doesn't live in the North Pole. And by not doing these things, he is no longer Santa.

Now, even if one does manage to come up with some wild and bizarre philosophical argument as to how he still could be Santa, there is still the fact that most people of normal mental ability by the time they reach adulthood no longer believe in Santa. And the fact that more than 80 percent of the world's population ascribe to some kind of religion. This means that there is a huge difference in religious beliefs versus Santa beliefs or other fairy tale beliefs.

While I do agree that religion has something to do with what is going on in the brain (I even say that there is an evolutionary factor here too), I cannot agree with the blanket assertion that one is religious because they are intellectually inferior to those that are not. That claim in itself is something I am skeptical about and would require hard evidence to convince me that it is the case. Interestingly, on a similar note, I think it was Michael Shermer who said that he had noted in his debates/discussions it tends to be those of high intellectual ability that seem to be very clever at rationalizing their beliefs and thus justifying their positions to themselves and others.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Ah, don't you just feel the christian love. @MayCaesar? Ricky, I'll say one thing for you; you represent all the bigotry, hate, condoned violence, and valid reasons to oppose your elf goddess even if there was a smidgit of evidence it existed. Spend eternity with that evil thing and you or hell, I'd choose hell every time. But since it's all childish fantasy we don't have to worry. But you do. Your elf book doesn't like subjects that aren't loving or smart enough to keep followers. You cause people to reject your elf god and that makes it mad. You're going to hell. And no it's not talking about little kids only; as you know for a fact your god considers all of us his children. So no hiding behind that. Don't you wish god gave you a brain?

Mark 9:42: Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; I feel NO LOVE toward you whatsoever. I'm glad I'm everything you love to hate...right back at YA! You rejected my Lord long before I entered this forum...you have done nothing but blaspheme Him and insult Him in your stupidity and arrogance...Hell is most fitting for you. You are NOT my Lord's child...you are a , arrogant, self-deceived, useless, atheist...this is YOUR doing and your choice...both of YOU!

I don't hate you. Why would you assume I hate you just because you hate me. Look this is the truth and it strikes a nerve right to your core whether you admit it or not. When you proselytize you become insulted when people don't believe you or your god. You in turn become insecure and feel the need to lash out. That's when I insult back. Probably shouldn't but I'm kind of immature that way. But ricky, you know this isn't condoned by your god, the bible or any spiritual authority. What attracts you here is how atheists are unaffected by the threat of an afterlife of hell for not bowing down to what you believe is the most important thing in your life. You feel as though the words of scripture should transform others the way you believe they did you. And they don't.

You see? When you believed, you believed, you were not convinced by compelling arguments, you just believed as you read the bible. It wasn't an active choice to believe, you just did. Probably had a euphoric experience as you read and believed? That's because you were open to the concepts the bible talks about generally because it was expected in your upbringing to believe in god. No one around you gave you cause to be skeptical of the idea, so you weren't. Now you're here where people do give cause to be skeptical and that is an affront to your sense of established faith. It doesn't mean we spread hate, does it have to mean you will?

@Factfinder ; I do wish my feelings toward the atheist was not HATE. Not here to proselytize...I was in this forum long before you arrived...I knew the demons that lurk here...you're nothing new or novel.

Atheists are their defilement in my Nation and their attacks on our families and their godless lifestyles and anti-American ideologies. Don't go getting all "rationale" and "logical" and nice..now...it's too late for that....you're an atheist th-ug...that's just the Truth and you'll most likely die in Hell...and that your "free will" choice.

Atheists do spread hate...you've been hateful from the time I first encountered you...you're a hypocrite...you think you have the right to insults and accusations...you're an atheist th-ug...you and @MayCaesar...

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Okay I tried. I think I will mute you as well.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Yes, do me that favor...get lost.

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

Interestingly, and this is what I hope to be looking at more some time in the future is the roots of religious beliefs/spirtual practices which can be traced back all the way to the Upper Paleolithic period, around 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:

"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:
Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."

You need to get a better AI. Zoroastrianism started with a polytheistic view of God - see world History Encyclopedia:

In the early polytheistic Persian religion, Ahura Mazda was the king of the gods and creator of the world, and Angra Mainyu/Ahriman, lord of the legions of demons, his opponent. After the reforms of Zoroaster (c. 1500-1000 BCE), resulting in the monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda became the one true god, and all the other deities emanations and avatars of his power, but Ahriman remained the source and embodiment of evil.

Judaism started with Abraham in around 1800 BCE. see the problem with your argument???

ZeusAres42

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:

"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:
Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."

You need to get a better AI. Zoroastrianism started with a polytheistic view of God - see world History Encyclopedia:

In the early polytheistic Persian religion, Ahura Mazda was the king of the gods and creator of the world, and Angra Mainyu/Ahriman, lord of the legions of demons, his opponent. After the reforms of Zoroaster (c. 1500-1000 BCE), resulting in the monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda became the one true god, and all the other deities emanations and avatars of his power, but Ahriman remained the source and embodiment of evil.
Judaism started with Abraham in around 1800 BCE. see the problem with your argument???

Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte, does it, @just_sayin? Firstly, this wasn't an argument. Secondly, none of the accusations you've made about what was written actually exist. Nowhere in this post is it stated or implied that Zoroastrianism or any deity began without beliefs first rooted in polytheism.

Furthemore, before the codification of any monotheistic religion Judaism that started with Abraham actually involved beliefs in polytheism.

As early as the 10th century BCE, Israelite and Judean religion began to emerge within the broader West Semitic culture, otherwise known as Canaanite culture. Between the 10th century and 7th centuries BCE, ancient Israelite and Judean religion was polytheistic. The polytheism, though, was counterbalanced by devotion to one or two primary deities, a practice known as henotheism (van der Toorn, 2047). Henotheism is recognition and worship of many deities; however, the primary worship revolves around a single deity. Within Judean and Israelite communities, primary devotion was oftentimes towards Yahweh. As both Judah and Israel were emerging states, Yahweh was the national deity, an idea which finds its origins in religious practices from the Bronze Age.

See the problem with your argument???? From your own source.

This is why I often refrain from taking the time to respond to you with my own well-thought-out arguments. It's become clear that you either don't read carefully or continue to deliberately misrepresent the other person's position. The latter, I find to be intellectually dishonest and disrespectful, and as a result, you have lost my respect.

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:

"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:
Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."

You need to get a better AI. Zoroastrianism started with a polytheistic view of God - see world History Encyclopedia:

In the early polytheistic Persian religion, Ahura Mazda was the king of the gods and creator of the world, and Angra Mainyu/Ahriman, lord of the legions of demons, his opponent. After the reforms of Zoroaster (c. 1500-1000 BCE), resulting in the monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda became the one true god, and all the other deities emanations and avatars of his power, but Ahriman remained the source and embodiment of evil.
Judaism started with Abraham in around 1800 BCE. see the problem with your argument???

Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte, does it, @just_sayin? Firstly, this wasn't an argument. Secondly, none of the accusations you've made about what was written actually exist. Nowhere in this post is it stated or implied that Zoroastrianism or any deity began without beliefs first rooted in polytheism.

Furthemore, before the codification of any monotheistic religion Judaism that started with Abraham actually involved beliefs in polytheism.
As early as the 10th century BCE, Israelite and Judean religion began to emerge within the broader West Semitic culture, otherwise known as Canaanite culture. Between the 10th century and 7th centuries BCE, ancient Israelite and Judean religion was polytheistic. The polytheism, though, was counterbalanced by devotion to one or two primary deities, a practice known as henotheism (van der Toorn, 2047). Henotheism is recognition and worship of many deities; however, the primary worship revolves around a single deity. Within Judean and Israelite communities, primary devotion was oftentimes towards Yahweh. As both Judah and Israel were emerging states, Yahweh was the national deity, an idea which finds its origins in religious practices from the Bronze Age.
See the problem with your argument???? From your own source.

This is why I often refrain from taking the time to respond to you with my own well-thought-out arguments. It's become clear that you either don't read carefully or continue to deliberately misrepresent the other person's position. The latter, I find to be intellectually dishonest and disrespectful, and as a result, you have lost my respect.

You cited an article on Zoroastrianism as authoritative on the beginning of Judaism? SMH. Your dates are crap. Again, I placed the date with Abraham, not post-exodus or Davidic period as you are now alleging. Did you really not realize That? @RickeyHoltsclaw would mock you, AS HE SHOULD, for such a mistake. Your date is from an ultra-liberal view that alleges that Judaism doesn't really start until the time of David. Again, you didn't know this????

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin ; @ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder

Zoroastrianism is a pre-Islamic religion of ancient Persia founded by Zoroaster in the 6th-century BC.

Judaism, a monotheistic religion, was founded through the Patriarchy of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (through the Torah) approximately 4000-years ago via the Levitical Covenant of Law; this, subsequent Sinai. Many argue over the origin or genesis of Judaism and its definition but the codified Law given Israel was initiated at Sinai and the 603-civil, ceremonial, laws of Moses as scratched upon parchment followed...these are the documents of Judaism. Judaism is a religion with one primary purpose; that is, to prepare Israel for the Messiah...the Written, Codified Law was essentially tutor pointing Israel's children to their need for Messiah by faith (Galatians 3:24)...Judaism was never the destination but a roadmap leading to the Destination that is Messiah.

Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ over 2000-years ago via a Gospel Message that was ordained, according to the Holy Spirit, "before Time began" (2 Timothy 1:8-10)...

Therefore, though Judaism predates Zoroaster and Islam by some 2700-years; Christianity's founding root and doctrine was ordained "before Time began;" therefore, the root of Christianity is over 6000-years old and its Founder, Jesus Christ, has no genesis concerning His Spiritual Nature as Elohim...Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting; therefore, the mind of man who struggles with these things can take peace in knowing that our omnipotent Creator knows the end from the beginning and has all things under control...the mind of man should know that we're in a cosmic struggle of unfathomable proportions, a struggle defined by good v. evil, and that the wisest move one can make is to dive into the Canon of Scripture, plead with the Holy Spirit for His intercession and find life in Jesus and Knowledge in the Spirit and peace with the Father through faith (John 3; 1 John 2:27; Romans 5:1). Take comfort in these things.

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Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

Interestingly, and this is what I hope to be looking at more some time in the future is the roots of religious beliefs/spirtual practices which can be traced back all the way to the Upper Paleolithic period, around 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Yeah. The human brain needs answers, it seeks them out. We seem to be a species that has to compartmentalize what we observe in order to relax psychologically; when we do not have them. "God did it" appears to do the trick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you found religious dogma from like 20,000 years ago. Though that would blow huge holes in the abrahamic religion of christianity. Considering there's only like 6000 years of lineage from adam and eve till now and all.

MayCaesar

ZeusAres42 said:

@MayCaesar

I can understand your frustration, especially when one or more people try to shove endless religious nonsense down your throat. However, I cannot entirely agree with this or the other assertions you have made about Santa Claus in the past being the same as a belief in God. And I will explain why. First, I see nothing wrong with your first paragraph and can resonate with it.
Moreover, regarding the latter bits, most children of this age are not interested in this kind of stuff and are probably far more interested in the next game they're going to play on their console, or something else. Children at this age are still developing intellectually; this kind of development doesn't end at the prepubescent age.
Furthermore, the idea that belief in God is akin to some childish fantasy or like the belief in Santa is a false equivalence and kind of a blanket assertion. If we just take Santa for example, while he and God might share some very similar traits, there is one huge difference: falsifiability. We can know that Santa doesn't deliver presents to all the kids in the world at the speed of light on one particular day of the year. We can know that Santa doesn't live in the North Pole. And by not doing these things, he is no longer Santa.
Now, even if one does manage to come up with some wild and bizarre philosophical argument as to how he still could be Santa, there is still the fact that most people of normal mental ability by the time they reach adulthood no longer believe in Santa. And the fact that more than 80 percent of the world's population ascribe to some kind of religion. This means that there is a huge difference in religious beliefs versus Santa beliefs or other fairy tale beliefs.
While I do agree that religion has something to do with what is going on in the brain (I even say that there is an evolutionary factor here too), I cannot agree with the blanket assertion that one is religious because they are intellectually inferior to those that are not. That claim in itself is something I am skeptical about and would require hard evidence to convince me that it is the case. Interestingly, on a similar note, I think it was Michael Shermer who said that he had noted in his debates/discussions it tends to be those of high intellectual ability that seem to be very clever at rationalizing their beliefs and thus justifying their positions to themselves and others.

Let me first clarify that I have never claimed that "one is religious because they are intellectually inferior to those that are not". I was talking about a specific element of intellectual development that, in my view, have gone wrong in them. That does not make them intellectually inferior to someone who stopped believing in these things at a young age - in fact, there are some religious people who become religious very late into their life - but this does make a particular aspect of their intellectual framework inhibited. That can still be fine if they keep an open mind, are open to the possibility of being wrong, are in a constant intellectual search involving processing input from others, even input that feels uncomfortable - people who do that are those about whom I said that "their employment of religion was more philosophical than literal, and I could not shake that feeling that they were engaged in some intentional semi-conscious roleplay". If they do not keep an open mind though and become seriously religious, then my observation is that their intellectual framework overall becomes corrupt, and it translates to intellectual dishonesty and moral dis-integrity across the board. I am not sure I agree with Michael Shermer: I think there is a difference between rationalizing one's beliefs (which is a genuine mistake), and defending them via explicit intellectual dishonesty.

I will also add that I am not "frustrated": I very rarely talk to anyone about religion outside of these boards, and religion does not impact my life. I was just sharing my observations, and if I feel any way about it, it is ugly because of all the compromises I have gone to when trying to respect those people views, when deep inside I cannot find any reasons to respect them.

Now, to the Santa question, I think you underestimate the extent to which people may go when trying to preserve their beliefs.

There are many interpretations of Santa, and one that has been disproven can be switched to another. Here is an unfalsifiable one: Santa sometimes brings presents to good kids, but the kids have to be really-really good, and presents may not necessarily be physical presents. You met the love of your life in your adulthood? It is Santa's present: you were a good kid, and he cast a spell and made sure that your life will be out there waiting for you. You ate a great food at a restaurant? Santa gifted the chef with a great culinary talent because the chef was a good kid. Someone's life is falling apart? They did not receive any gifts from Santa because, even though everyone thought they were a good kid, behind everyone's backs they were doing something very naughty.

Lastly, I want to address this part that is very common (often implicitly stated) in these discussions:

Now, even if one does manage to come up with some wild and bizarre philosophical argument as to how he still could be Santa, there is still the fact that most people of normal mental ability by the time they reach adulthood no longer believe in Santa. And the fact that more than 80 percent of the world's population ascribe to some kind of religion. This means that there is a huge difference in religious beliefs versus Santa beliefs or other fairy tale beliefs.

I do not think that popularity of something supports its validity (and I am sure that you will agree with it). If your point is that, because religion is much more popular than serious belief in Santa, then people are much more likely to inherit it from their family/community/society, then I do not dispute that. That does not change the preposterousness of the beliefs in question. One can be led to believe in very wacky things by social conditioning, sure. But if one is to analyze the, let us call it, "quality" of such beliefs, they must approach it by looking at the intrinsic merit of these beliefs and not on how they are propagated. Of course no one should be surprised that a North Korean kid believes in magical powers of his Dear Leader - the belief is still ridiculous, however.

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The Ten Plagues of Egypt

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Samson and the Philistines

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