It is like we've become so entrenched in embracing diversity at face value that we're quickly moving towards the ironic state of being unable to tolerate our present state of diversity. Once what was a cohesive country with both faults and goodness that shared a uniquely American heritage has abandoned that heritage; dissolving into our own little ant hills. Completely intolerant of the things that made us a diverse society in the first place. 

@RickeyHoltsclaw


You're the one that sounds like the liberal sicko..

Yes I know people like you think feeding the hungry , housing the homeless and treating the sick is sick but then again that's American christians for you.

..you're also ignorant if you think Islam is not the Evil representative in Time as they serve the same god as the atheist,
 Satan

There's me thinking Muslims worship Alllah , I didn't know Atheists worshiped supernatural  entities .....thanks for the heads up.


. Christians don't cite Trump as being a model Christian but that Trump is an excellent President...a secular position

Americans like you  do indeed cite Trump as being a model Christian glad to see even that embarrasses a loon like you.

...again, you're just dumb and a sad product of America's failed educational system.

Hilarious this from an American religious whacko like you who thinks Atheists worship Allah BTW I'm not American

 Useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Leave your wife out of this.

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw


You're the one that sounds like the liberal sicko..

Yes I know people like you think feeding the hungry , housing the homeless and treating the sick is sick but then again that's American christians for you.

..you're also ignorant if you think Islam is not the Evil representative in Time as they serve the same god as the atheist,
 Satan

There's me thinking Muslims worship Alllah , I didn't know Atheists worshiped supernatural  entities .....thanks for the heads up.


. Christians don't cite Trump as being a model Christian but that Trump is an excellent President...a secular position

Americans like you  do indeed cite Trump as being a model Christian glad to see even that embarrasses a loon like you.

...again, you're just dumb and a sad product of America's failed educational system.

Hilarious this from an American religious whacko like you who thinks Atheists worship Allah BTW I'm not American

 Useless as the tits on a boar hog.

Leave your wife out of this.

I personally think that the reason why western cavillation is headed for the rocks is because of the Christian belief that "all are equal under God". which is another way of saying that "all races are equal."    Christianity is the reason why western civilizations are usually so internally peaceful with low levels of corruption.   But unfortunately, their belief that all are equal is tearing their once peaceful and prosperous societies apart.  

In every country in the western world, the political divide is now between two classes of people.      On one side are the rich globalist elites, the top public servants, academia, unelected officials of NGO’s with great power, and much of the media, including the artistic class.  All of these demographics seem to want a new cultural revolution which would unsurprisingly, leave them at the top of the pyramid telling everybody else what to do.     Since their numbers are small compared to the rest of the electorate, they openly support any supposedly “oppressed” group, using identity politics to attract voters from racial, sectarian, or sexually confused groups.     These usually despised groups the elites seek to protect through limitations on freedom of speech.   The biggest problem for the elites, is that those supposedly aggrieved minority groups that they need to make up an electoral majority, are usually mutually hostile to each other.    Therefore, the political alliances that result are intrinsically unstable.     An example of this would be the UK, where the Labour Left once championed Muslims, who have increased in numbers so much in the London area, that they have now turned to bite the Labourites on the bum. 

 On the other side of the political divide, is the “indigenous” white people of both the disadvantaged, working, and lower middle classes.   The white working class and the white middle class (with much non white participation) make up the productive classes of society.    These people see the global centred elites as having self aggrandising values contrary to the stability and continued prosperity of their countries.     That these productive people are still the majority, can be seen by the election results for Brexit in the UK, the rise of right wing parties in Denmark, Holland, Italy, and Germany, and the defeats of referenda in Australia, and now Ireland.

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

1) Your first error is thinking that "I care" what a useless liberal perceives or thinks of me.

Thats not an error but statement of fact as your lengthy reply clearly demonstrates you do actually care.

2) Atheists worship Satan in their narcissistic arrogance and spiritual stupidity. Muslim's who serve Islam serve Allah who is Satan masquerading as an angel of light via the Arabic moon god...the same god of the religion of Atheism and both die in Hell.

As I stated previously you're very mentally unwell.

3) I'm an American...Trump's beliefs are his ... I am concerned about his policies and their affect upon the life of my family. My family prospered and was safe under Trump..not so under the progressive currently in office.

You share Trumps beliefs and before you got banned from here used to say he was a model Christian.

4) Atheists serve Satan by default...who is Allah.

Atheists still don't believe in gods you d-mb f-ck you on the other hand believe in Allah ,  a moon god  and Yaweh

5) My wife is not a boar but a female...are you a transsexual as well? Are you LGBTQ deceived? Do you like little boys in your particular version of atheistic deception?

Your wife is a pig which is she smells  and why even a Muslim wouldn't screw her..  I'm no transexual you seem obsessed with them you mixed up f-ck. Is your Piglet of  a wife LGBTQ or transexual? I seem to have hit a nerve.

I bet you lust after your own kids you big pu-sy

@Joeseph ;   I bet you lust after your own kids you big pu-sy

Keep that up and you will get banned from this site.  

@Putin

Richard who?

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

4) Atheists serve Satan by default...who is Allah.

Oh my! That is a new and a very interesting claim. Muslims are atheists? 

I take my previous words back. You do have original ideas!

@RickeyHoltsclaw


 ; You went too far...


You want to act the tough guy and attack others accept the same back ......an eye for an eye 

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder ;

I came to ponder this after coming across some interesting videos, several of which talk about things I was completely unaware of that was even happening. Here are some I have watched, and more on my list to watch later:












There is loads more and I am don't want to flood the forum. But yeah, and there is loads more of this too. 

I've always like Pierce Morgan. I was just watching your first video. Peter Boghossian I've read a quote here and there but he somehow has flown under my radar for the most part till recently. I'm interested in hearing some more of his views, thanks. This stuff is literally going on in my family. Extreme views in the right and left, weird gender identities, and I'm stuck in the middle. Being a physical conservative, my daughter and I can't speak freely about certain woke members without creating emotional drama; then of course my daughter is used to me praying over thanksgiving dinner and is upset I don't anymore. She very much believes in god and who am I to act in any way to sabotage her faith, that I encouraged to begin with? At the same time she is worried about my loss of faith. On the other hand my son is, always was atheist and gets annoyed at anti woke comments. Both have extreme woke issues going on in their families. What happened to the sane middle ground?

Factfinder said:

I've always like Pierce Morgan. I was just watching your first video. Peter Boghossian I've read a quote here and there but he somehow has flown under my radar for the most part till recently. I'm interested in hearing some more of his views, thanks. This stuff is literally going on in my family. Extreme views in the right and left, weird gender identities, and I'm stuck in the middle. Being a physical conservative, my daughter and I can't speak freely about certain woke members without creating emotional drama; then of course my daughter is used to me praying over thanksgiving dinner and is upset I don't anymore. She very much believes in god and who am I to act in any way to sabotage her faith, that I encouraged to begin with? At the same time she is worried about my loss of faith. On the other hand my son is, always was atheist and gets annoyed at anti woke comments. Both have extreme woke issues going on in their families. What happened to the sane middle ground?

See, I do not really have these issues because I just do not seriously debate this stuff with people in the real world. I certainly know people who are "woke" in some respects, or deeply religious in some way - and I simply adapt to them. I may say a lot of things about Islam, or Christianity, or socialism, or gender ideologies, here on a debate website - but when I hear it from people in the real world, I try to understand where they are coming from and gently probe for gaps in their logic. I have been in situations where a political or ideological dispute made it hard for me to have a great friendship with someone maybe 3-4 times in my entire life, and those were not people I would want back in my life anyway.

I guess I am just not very serious when it comes to these things. I love logical puzzles, so I debate these issues coldly as they constitute those - but when it comes to my general outlook on life, I just do not care that much if someone disagrees with me on something. It only becomes a problem when they do something forceful as a consequence of the disagreement.

I wonder if many people make their lives much harder by taking disagreements, or other aspects of personal interactions, too seriously. Life is a giant circus, and we are all clowns in it. When my last romantic partner betrayed me badly, I literally laughed out loud. We are all just giant lemmings, and there is no reason to try to convince everyone that you are a great person to have around.

That is not to say that there are no situations where you really have to stand up for yourself and oppose malice with decisive action. But I do not think that someone being upset over some social or political issue is an example of such a situation.

@Bogan

Will I indeed ? Do you honestly think i care about a site which consists of 90 per cent American fundies and racists like you and Barndoor?

Its pretty telling that your buddy R fired the first shot by accusing me of being involved in child sex and not a word of censure did you issue to.him you two faced hypocrite.

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

I wonder if many people make their lives much harder by taking disagreements, or other aspects of personal interactions, too seriously

That is a profoundly intuitive observation. My late wife often made the point, 'people need to realize nobody is as concerned about them as they are about themselves'. Which is so true, we generally spend so much time wondering what others think about us when really they're to self engrossed to notice you. LOL

“Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense” (Proverbs 19:11)

@Joeseph ;   You're spouting lies and abuse with your fellow kiddy fiddler a long time now and you're still here , hows that work?

Because I am polite to those contributors who are polite to me.   You should try it some time.     People who just sprout abuse are not taken seriously, and they eventually get tossed.  

@ZeusAres42

I've been listening to Peter Boghossian. He seems to be talking in great detail about what Putin of all people; claims he's defending russia against. About what America exports on many different complex levels. Which makes me curious, have you heard of the liberal international order? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_international_order#:~:text=In international relations, the liberal,liberal internationalism since the late

ZeusAres42 said:

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

I wonder if many people make their lives much harder by taking disagreements, or other aspects of personal interactions, too seriously

That is a profoundly intuitive observation. My late wife often made the point, 'people need to realize nobody is as concerned about them as they are about themselves'. Which is so true, we generally spend so much time wondering what others think about us when really they're to self engrossed to notice you. LOL

@Factfinder

To clarify, the observations I have made are not related to our everyday, anecdotal, subjective personal experiences, nor to the disagreements we might not appreciate. This topic extends far beyond what is immediately before us.

Respectfully, the most relevant comment I noticed from you, @MayCaesar, was this: "It only becomes a problem when they do something forceful as a consequence of the disagreement." Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear, or I could have elaborated on certain points. Nonetheless, that is exactly what this debate topic is about. Therefore, the later information I introduced to @Factfinder delved into more detail about this as well. It concerns what seems to be an emerging authoritarian attitude, this time apparently emanating from the far left. Like religious cults, they possess nothing of substance to support their absurd position, which they are doing everything they can to impose their will and radical ideology upon society.

This is not as simplistic as mere personal disagreements that one might not like in our own lives. The matter at hand is entering not only higher-tier academic institutions but also all educational establishments, and then further extending into society. This further extends to where political policy prescriptions and mandates are made as a result of it. And this affects every single one of us, whether we like to acknowledge it or not.

To highlight this issue, there was a grievance studies affair a few years back that involved James Lindsay, Helen Pluckrose, and Peter Boghossian, among others, who wrote a series of hoax academic papers that were published unquestioningly regarding humanities subjects. This was to prove a point about the absurdity of woke ideology and how it could be taken to extremes as a result of it. For instance, one of the papers was titled "The Conceptual Penis as a Social Construct!" That's right, and such nonsense was getting published!

After this, they, along with several other professors, ended up resigning. It was this that led to professors like Boghossian resigning due to the constant harassing and policing from those in the universities, telling them what they could say, what they couldn't say, being falsely reported for being offensive, and more.

• https://areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/academic-grievance-studies-and-the-corruption-of-scholarship/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair

Yes, I was just listening to that. Did you get a chance to read up on the liberal international order?

@Factfinder

Exactly. 

This isn't merely about right or left politics. It's about extremism, radicalization, totalitarianism, and more. This is illiberal; it represents social injustice. Ironically, the liberal left has actionably contradicted almost everything they stand for, yet they continue to label it as liberalism.

ZeusAres42 said:

To clarify, the observations I have made are not related to our everyday, anecdotal, subjective personal experiences, nor to the disagreements we might not appreciate. This topic extends far beyond what is immediately before us.

Respectfully, the most relevant comment I noticed from you, @MayCaesar, was this: "It only becomes a problem when they do something forceful as a consequence of the disagreement." Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear, or I could have elaborated on certain points. Nonetheless, that is exactly what this debate topic is about. Therefore, the later information I introduced to @Factfinder delved into more detail about this as well. It concerns what seems to be an emerging authoritarian attitude, this time apparently emanating from the far left. Like religious cults, they possess nothing of substance to support their absurd position, which they are doing everything they can to impose their will and radical ideology upon society.

This is not as simplistic as mere personal disagreements that one might not like in our own lives. The matter at hand is entering not only higher-tier academic institutions but also all educational establishments, and then further extending into society. This further extends to where political policy prescriptions and mandates are made as a result of it. And this affects every single one of us, whether we like to acknowledge it or not.

To highlight this issue, there was a grievance studies affair a few years back that involved James Lindsay, Helen Pluckrose, and Peter Boghossian, among others, who wrote a series of hoax academic papers that were published unquestioningly regarding humanities subjects. This was to prove a point about the absurdity of woke ideology and how it could be taken to extremes as a result of it. For instance, one of the papers was titled "The Conceptual Penis as a Social Construct!" That's right, and such nonsense was getting published!

After this, they, along with several other professors, ended up resigning. It was this that led to professors like Boghossian resigning due to the constant harassing and policing from those in the universities, telling them what they could say, what they couldn't say, being falsely reported for being offensive, and more.

First, let me clarify that I am perfectly cool with having properties of my arguments (such as irrelevance) called out for. If you label my argument as "irrelevant", I do not get offended: rather, to me it is a signal that I did not address the argument that you expected to be addressed. I think I know you well enough to reasonably expect such reactions to be warranted.

To your present point, I do not think that the two are unrelated. When I say "It only becomes a problem...", I talk specifically about a particular threshold passed - the direction towards that threshold is determined much earlier. What is the fundamental source of authoritarianism? I would suggest that it is the willingness and desire to make other people act in your favor. Application of force is an example of acting on such willingness and desire, but there are far smaller acts one can take that prime them for moving in this direction. Every time one tells a small lie about something in order to get others to cooperate with them, for instance, they put a new brick in the building of habitual lying and manipulation. And people do that all of time, and have done it throughout all of history.

In my observation, even if particular manifestations of authoritarianism have differed significantly across times and societies, the fundamental driving forces of it remained the same. Perhaps it was easier for the "left" and the "right" to have a civil discourse with each other in the 1970-s than nowadays - however, it was much harder to publicly talk about non-traditional sexualities, and for the people having them that time may have felt much more stifling than present time. Going all the way back to Cicero's times, one could get mauled for suggesting that Roman citizens should not have any more rights than non-citizens. Societies always held some strong beliefs that they do not tolerate being questioned, and what those beliefs are can change dramatically over time. Perhaps 200 years from now people on Earth will be shocked that there used to be a time when walking around in public completely naked was seen as inappropriate - but they will bash on anyone who says that life on the Martian colonies is better than on Earth.

Even when it comes to the take-over of the academic institutions, there used to be time in England when the Church of England ran essentially everything (that the Palace did not run). You went to Oxford in 1500 - the majority of your coursework would be religious or political studies in the spirit of that time. Perhaps the discourse was more open in some respects, but certain topics (such as "perhaps monarchy is a bad form of governance?", or "what if god does not exist?") were completely off the table.

As I said in my opening statement, I do not think that the societies on the West are significantly more authoritarian today than they used to be decades ago - but I do think that they are much more authoritarian than one should expect them to be given all the technological and scientific advances we have made recently. Nowadays, when 8+ billions of people can talk to each other by a press of a button in near-real time, it is especially crucial that people recognize the necessity of diversity of views and experiences. In the 16-th century England it was understandable to expect all people in one village to largely believe in the same things - but in the 21st century America, or England, or China, or whatever, it is natural to hear 20 different opinions in a room with 10 people. Expecting in these conditions everyone to share the same set of dogmas such as "gender is purely a social construct" is extremely unreasonable and retrograde.